P1 hours after skills test but before PPL issues.

[Dan4267]

Hello everyone,

I am due to do my Skills test on my next flight. My understanding is that once passed you are legally entitled to fly solo but not take passengers until you physically have the license in your hand. However do these solo hours count towards P1 and the minimum hours required for ratings such as IR and CPL? Would hate to fly solo and not be able to count them. Any feedback much appreciated.

Cheers,
Danny.

[Genghis the Engineer]

They need to be authorised by an instructor, correct that you can't carry pax. PiC hours are valid for anything, the system doesn’t care what licence you had - or not - when you flew them.

G

[Mustapha Cuppa]

Genghis

I have agonised over this issue for a number of years and I wonder whether you could point me to the legal instrument or similar that provides for this in order to put my mind at rest?

Article 7 to Regulation (EC) No 216/2008 (the Basic Regulation) includes:

2. Except when under training, a person may only act as a pilot if he or she holds a licence and a medical certificate appropriate to the operation to be performed

in this case, the OP would not be the the holder of licence after his successful skill test until he has it in his sweaty palm (the fact of which he is clearly aware). However, the training for his licence would have finished and a course completion certificate issued prior to his skill test, ergo he is no longer under training. It seems to me that any such "supervision" of solo flights on the part of an instructor would therefore be outwith the scope of Commission Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011 (the Aircrew Regulation).

No trying to be contentious here, and this would indeed appear to be common practice, but I was wondering whether you are aware of an angle that I have not considered?

Many thanks

[Gertrude the Wombat]

No trying to be contentious here, and this would indeed appear to be common practice, but I was wondering whether you are aware of an angle that I have not considered?
Depends on the legal definition of "under training" in this specific context? - the punter could go to a school and say "please can I have some further training in solo cross-country navigation"?

Most (all?) of us are "under training" at various stages after the initial grant of the licence, so why not in the gap before?

[John R81]

In EASA land, until you have your license back and you sign it, you are PUT. You can continue to fly with an instructor, and anyone else you like in the back, or you can be authorised to fly solo by an instructor. You can't have passengers unless you have an instructor with you at the controls.

[Genghis the Engineer]

'wot John and Gertrude said.

It's signed off as further supervised solo training. But, if it's solo, it's obviously PiC, and the world doesn't question whether it was supervised as solo training, or just plain "gone flying" so long as the entries are legitimately in the PiC column of a logbook.

G

[flybymike]

When I passed my driving test in 1967 the examiner gave me a "pink slip" which entitled me to drive myself home from the test centre there and then which I duly did, and then after that I continued to drive with all and sundry on board using that same pink slip until my licence arrived in the post.
So much for progress.

[Dan4267]

Thanks everyone for your replies so far, very helpful.

[Mach Jump]

2. Except when under training, a person may only act as a pilot if he or she holds a licence and a medical certificate appropriate to the operation to be performed

This does not say that you have to be under training for a Licence or Rating

I think that, if an Instructor examines your preparation/planning, authorises your flight, supervises the progress of the flight, and debriefs you after the flight, you are, by any reasonable definition of the term, 'under training'.

I believe that, in such a case, the onus would fall on anyone who contested this view to prove their case.


MJ:ok:

Ps. In 'EASA Land' there is no such thing as PUT, PuT, Pu/t, or P/ut. only 'Dual'

[Mustapha Cuppa]

Thanks, all.

[pulse1]

2. Except when under training, a person may only act as a pilot if he or she holds a licence and a medical certificate appropriate to the operation to be performed

Surely a student pilot waiting for the issue of the PPL still holds a Student Pilot's Licence and therefore meets that requirement as long as they are flying under the supervision of an instructor.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Student pilot's licence? Whassat ?

G

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Student pilot's licence? Whassat ?
It says "medical certificate" on it, I was always told.

[foxmoth]

Student pilot's licence? Whassat ?

G

It's something you actually needed to have to go solo when I learnt! In fact my first solo was delayed because it had not come through from the CAA, not long after they did incorporate it into the medical certificate, not sure it still says that though?

[ChickenHouse]

I am confused. What EXACTLY does the OP mean by "skills test"? If it is final license ride, in EASA land you are grounded right after your ride until you get your part.FCL in hand. With passing license check ride, you are no longer in training, so regulations for student training are no longer valid and you do not hold the license in hand, which is required to be allowed to fly. I just had this information from a friend of mine lately flying to his final PPL check on a flight order from his ATO and had to be driven back by his girlfriend, because his examiner insisted that he has no legal chance to fly after passing PPL - even though there seem to be some pilots to fly to their exam ride on training order from ATO, this appears to be no longer valid once passed. Can anybody confirm that out of EASAland?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I am confused. What EXACTLY does the OP mean by "skills test"?

I think that he probably means the "skills test", as defined in EASA-FCL, etc.

If it is final license ride, in EASA land you are grounded right after your ride until you get your part.FCL in hand.

Not that I've ever seen.

With passing license check ride, you are no longer in training, so regulations for student training are no longer valid

Nonsense - training goes on throughout every pilot's flying career.

and you do not hold the license in hand, which is required to be allowed to fly.

Except under training.

I just had this information from a friend of mine lately flying to his final PPL check on a flight order from his ATO and had to be driven back by his girlfriend, because his examiner insisted that he has no legal chance to fly after passing PPL

He cannot fly UNSUPERVISED. He can fly dual training, or solo supervised training.

- even though there seem to be some pilots to fly to their exam ride on training order from ATO, this appears to be no longer valid once passed. Can anybody confirm that out of EASAland?

Exam ride is not a legally defined term, it's called a skill test.

G

[flybymike]

Ye Gods, they have just passed a friggin flying test. Let the buggers fly without restriction if they want to.
Waiting for arrival of paperwork is a pointless formality.

[worrab]

Waiting for arrival of paperwork is a pointless formality.:=

You haven't got the hang of this EASA lark have you.

[Loggerheads]

Waiting for arrival of paperwork is a pointless formality.

Is it? It would be interesting to know the number of licence applications that are justifiably rejected.

[foxmoth]

I would suspect very few!

[BillieBob]

If it is final license ride, in EASA land you are grounded right after your ride until you get your part.FCL in hand. With passing license check ride, you are no longer in trainingSo far as the UK is concerned at least, that is total poppycock! You may not be undergoing training for the issue of a licence but that is not what the relevant legislation says - you only need to be "undergoing flying training".

It is perfectly acceptable for an individual to undertake, for example, dual or solo refresher training (or, indeed, initial training for certain other qualifications) while awaiting receipt of the licence. The only requirement is that the solo training is "authorised and supervised by a flight instructor".

Other member states may have further restrictions written into their respective national legislation but there is nothing in the EASA Aircrew Regulation that prevents an individual from choosing to undergo further training (either dual or solo) while awaiting licence issue.

[Loggerheads]

I would suspect very few!

Maybe so, however low the number I have always been of the belief it is sufficiently high enough, with rejections being significantly serious, to warrant not taking the risk until all is checked.

The backlash from an incident where it was found the new PPL wasn't actually a new PPL may not be considered worth the risk.

Without the necessary information I don't feel I can be as definitive in my views as some.

[foxmoth]

Personally I doubt that it is that high, and those that there are most will not have actually done the test with an examiner but forged all the paperwork - otherwise it is unlikely they will pass anyway, add in the fact that they will be known to the school they are hiring off and still need to be supervised by an instructor until they get the license in hand I really cannot understand your concern??:rolleyes:

[Genghis the Engineer]

I can see why a proper licence needs to be issued, and that requires checks independent of the school and examiner.

But, I really can't see why a temporary certificate can't be issued. Say 60 days, limited to solo flight only, while the CAA trundle through the paperwork. In fact wasn't something like that proposed to the red tape challenge.

The risks would be minimal, and the benefits obvious.

G

[Loggerheads]

I really cannot understand your concern??

Foxmoth, I don't have any concern, none whatsoever. I'm merely offering what I believe is the thinking behind the rule as it is. In fact I don't believe I voiced support for the present system?