Loganair SF34 at Rotterdam. Hydraulic failure

[parkfell]

Departing for Aberdeen, returned following a hydraulic failure. Landed safely and came to a stop on runway 06. Subsequently began to move and ended up on the grass.
The Aviation Herald has more details and comments.
Not a good year for Logibear.

[parkfell]

Probably best to wait for the AAIB to report on the SYY event and avoid any speculation.

[mikehammer]

True, it isn't a good time at the moment for Loganair, they have had lots of engineering problems including another recent engine shut down in flight. However this particular incident hardly even merits a mention. Plane rolls onto grass in low speed no injury shocker? Hmmm.

[Fred Tesson]

Would be interesting to know if the engineering problems are due to the ageing fleet, or poor maintenance, or some other reason perhaps.

Loganair have been very lucky not to have lost an airframe or two recently through pilot errors as well.

Is it a bad run of luck, or are there serious cultural issues perhaps?

It certainly looks like the cracks are beginning to show.

[deefer dog]

Obviously a completely UNBIASED view from Fred Tesson, who, one might imagine, may have an axe to grind with Loganair!

[HeartyMeatballs]

I don't think Fred Tesson appears to have an axe to grind. The fact of the matter is that within a year two aircraft were involved in two temporary loss of control events, one ended up off the runway in EGPO and now this incident. All from an airline that is quite small and doesn't operate a huge amount they seem to have more than their fair share of incidents. I think his questions are valid. Is it cultural, is it their maintenance, is it the types they operate? Whatever it is, there's something not quite right with LC in my opinion.

[mikehammer]

As it happens, I do myself have an axe to grind with Loganair, for I left in anger at the way management persecute all their crews, or, to be more precise in my own selfish way: me!

However this particular incident is not really noteworthy except that it is yet another tech fault. My personal opinion is that they lost a lot of very good engineers because they treated them badly and they left for pastures new. Lately there are pilot jobs in other airlines too (a new thing) and so they are starting to lose a few more of those as well. The loss of a good experience base in engineering is now leaving them without anyone who can fix a plane (ok I exaggerate, but you get my point).

For the most part, in fact just about all, their crews are loyal and keen servants. However this is being drummed out of them by unfairness. Crews to Loganair are a necessary but painful expense. They are treated as if they don't matter and expected to work beyond the call of duty in spite of this. The shift change (and I hate management psychobabble bull****) occurred after Scott Grier stood down and Tiger Airways took over.

How long before their short sighted management ways leave them with no experienced pilots to add to the lack of engineers?

Shame. Used to be a good company to work for. Rubbish money, but fun, appreciative ops and management, challenging flying, superb training and...well..why leave?

Oh by the way the Training Manager is also leaving. The last one stood down voluntarily. Both are excellent. Both (in my opinion) were unappreciated.

[axefurabz]

Would be interesting to know if the engineering problems are due to the ageing fleet, or poor maintenance, or some other reason perhaps.

Loganair have been very lucky not to have lost an airframe or two recently through pilot errors as well.

Is it a bad run of luck, or are there serious cultural issues perhaps?Seconded. Those of us who are reliant on Loganair for air transport would dearly like to know the answer to these, and other, questions.

[Skipness One Echo]

http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/567475-loganair-2014-severe-icing-mtn-wave-aaib-report.html

Given that no manufacturer is close to replacing 34 seat props, what's the medium term goal?

[HeartyMeatballs]

I don't understand the question. Surely you're not implying that the fleet is ageing therefore we should just accept the occasional near fatal mishap now and again? They charge a lot for their service and earn a healthy margin on their sales, so surely it's not asking much for us and our families to travel in relative safety?

T3 have an aging fleet of a similar sized aircraft and although they have had the off tech problem, they seem a fairly sound airline with a robust set up.

I'm very surprised BE aren't more closely involved. It's their colour scheme,flight number and and branding that will likely be dragged through the mud should a smoking hole ever happen.

[mikehammer]

In plain terms there is a culture of poor staff management which has left any long term goals unachievable due to the lack of experienced skilled staff who have already looked for greener pastures. The airframes are old, yes of course, but with proper resources can be perfectly serviceable. The only thing preventing a smoking hole as you put it, is the crew who identify something as being unsafe and therefore call in an engineer, who unfortunately, is often not available. To take this to its ultimate point, if you end up with poor quality staff who won't call an engineer who is not available anyway...

Maybe it's time to start thinking about how to keep staff. Just an idea for the boardroom. Go on why not? Money???

[HeartyMeatballs]

It's deeply concerning. I've been using them all my life as have my family. However over the last few years the prices are through the roof, punctuality is horrendous and for the last year or so I've had concerns about their safety.

I'm very surprised to hear about what seems to be a fairly toxic working environment. They were always an airline that I'd have loved to work for and my very first flight was with them so they've always been an airline who I have followed closely. Something needs to change and fast.

Maybe it's a blessing in disguise my loved ones are priced out of flying them and have to take the ferry!

Unfortunately all airlines (low cost, legacy, regional) all seem to be on a race to annoy as many of their employees as possible. Seems LC are a bit penny wise yet pounds foolish - as are most airlines seemingly.

[Nil further]

The AAIB seem to think there is a cultural issue .
See report above F/O could not stand up to CPT due his attitude.

They went through a similar phase some years back ago , sadly with some hull losses .The current situation , as it appears, is not so severe .

Re:race to bottom .Every single airline in the world is in the same race . the customer thinks they can fly anywhere for £10 and something isn't gonna give .

Go figure as the americans say .

Cathay, Emirates ,BA , none of them what they were 10 years ago

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

Accidents and incidents are not new to Loganair. Truth is, over the last twenty years they have possibly the worst record in the UK aviation industry. I can't remember them all but buy can remember a Shorts 360 fatal crash, a Twin Otter CFIT, the air ambulance accident that killed two. They also have a fair few fender benders such as the misloaded Saab that wheelied down the runway at Kirkwall, as well as the the recent string of problems.

What is going wrong there? Is Loganair, the new Emerald Airways?

[parkfell]

A few observations to clarify the situation:

To my knowledge, there has never been a fare paying passenger killed since the management buyout in 1997 when Scott Grier took the helm.

The accountant who joined circa 2001 is a very decent chap and is in charge.
He needs to lead from the front and change the culture as necessary. Is the remuneration structure for his management team, in part, causing these events? Is a lack of empathy with the staff a major issue?

A confidential culture survey (when Loganair was a BA franchise ~ a yearly event) may well reveal to him just what the perceived issues are. BALPA to supervise?
Yes, profits might well take a dip during this transition, but they needs to think long term?

Saab are very suitable AC for the task. However, they are not getting any younger and besides the statutory maintenance, a measure of TLC is also necessary from experienced lead ginger beers.
Mr Boeing says that when one of his machines reaches 20 years old, twice as much maintenance (TLC) is necessary. All the Saabs exceed 20 years old.

Loganair have a sound future provided the right sound leadership is present.
The Thought Police, will no doubt be monitoring all social media.

A final thought:
if this was part of the NHS, the CQC would actively being considering whether "special measures" were appropriate.........

[air2000dub]

Thistle airways I hear.

[mikehammer]

Parkfell, the tiger rules the jungle. Adamson calls the shots not Harrison. It's a bonded warehouse.

[Keepittight]

Thistle Airways will start around spring/summer next year. ATR's, things done properly and a good bunch of people should work. Best of luck to them, I think Scotland deserves something different!

[DaveReidUK]

To my knowledge, there has never been a fare paying passenger killed since the management buyout in 1997 when Scott Grier took the helm.

AFAIK, Loganair has never killed a fare-paying passenger, ever.

[Castle Don]

It's been many years since I flew the 340, but one potential embarrassing scenario, as I recall, would be to use all one's skill to land and come to a stop, with no hydraulics (no brakes, no steering), only to feather the props during which the burst of thrust would send you into the weeds. At our place we recommended in this situation, and when parked on very poor braking action surfaces, shutting down using the fire handles to avoid the feathering maneuver.

Any input from more current and qualified folk?

[Tubbs]

Fire handles works or condition levers straight to fuel off.

[Countrygent]

Exactly as Tubbs has said. Sadly, as this advise was issued in written form to all crews, the Captain, instead of a thank you will quite possibly be suspended, disciplined and derided for failing to follow SOPs when in fact given the stress of the situation did a rather sterling job. Many good folk driven from Loganair for much less in recent times.

[axefurabz]

Contributors to this thread might be interested in this:
LOGANAIR has moved to reassure passengers that its aircraft are safe to fly in after a strongly-worded letter from pilots to company management raised a number of serious concerns about the “crisis” within its engineering department. An internal letter from pilots’ union BALPA’s company council, sent to Loganair chief executive Stewart Adams on Thursday, complained that planes were “being returned to the line despite being unserviceable” and in some cases “aircraft retain defects that clearly affect flight safety”.
The article is too long to quote in full here but may be viewed here (http://www.shetnews.co.uk/news/11632-loganair-pilots-raise-serious-engineering-concerns)

[mikehammer]

Contributors to this thread might be interested in this:
The article is too long to quote in full here but may be viewed here (http://www.shetnews.co.uk/news/11632-loganair-pilots-raise-serious-engineering-concerns)

And today's call for it to be examined in the commons. This is being leaked by someone with an axe to grind, perhaps the HR manager peed off one guy too many as he sent them for the high jump.
http://www.shetnews.co.uk/news/11635-calls-for-caa-and-mackay-to-act-on-loganair-worries

[Countrygent]

That list MH would be a long one, but suspect the "leak" is from someone still there. Good on them.

[BISH-BASH-BOSH]

What goes around, comes around !!!!!!