Question about "clear to land" instruction

[piperboy84]

Am I correct in saying that in the UK you will only receive the "clear to land" instruction if you are number 1. Whereas in the U.S. I believe you could receive something along the lines of " clear to Land number 2 behind the piper" . I am asking as I was recently approaching a towered field on a 4 mile final with at least 4 others in the circuit, I momentarily lost situational awareness of some of the traffic who were now on late downwind I then received a clear to land instruction, I enquired if that would be as number 2 behind the aircraft I assumed was now on base but was advised by tower that if I was not number 1 I would not have been given a cleared to land.

[Chesty Morgan]

Dunno officially but if you go to CDG you'll probably be number 28 and cleared to land.

[Mach Jump]

Am I correct in saying that in the UK you will only receive the "clear to land" instruction if you are number 1. Whereas in the U.S. I believe you could receive something along the lines of " clear to Land number 2 behind the piper"

Yes. You are correct. The only exception, in the UK, is when you are cleared to 'land after', in which case, the landing is at your discretion. You must have the No.1 in sight at all times, and at the time of landing, you must be confident that there is sufficient runway already behind the preceding aircraft to land, and stop safely. You are not allowed to do this at an uncontrolled airfield.

When I was cleared to land with 3 ahead on my first visit to the USA, I asked, 'What about the 3 ahead?' and He said 'They're cleared to land as well! :eek:


MJ:ok:

[kcockayne]

In the UK "Cleared To Land" will only be given when you actually ARE clear to land; which in my mind means that you are absolutely the only aircraft that IS clear to land ie no other aircraft will be clear to land if another aircraft is on the runway or has already been cleared to land or take off ahead of you.
The US practice is, in my mind, potentially dangerous as I struggle to see how an aircraft can be cleared to do anything when it is patently NOT clear to do any such thing !

[fireflybob]

"Clear to land" is not an instruction. Neither is "Land after".

[piperboy84]

"Clear to land" is not an instruction. Neither is "Land after".

What is it then ?

[Z10]

Same in Norway.

Clear to land will only be given to one aircraft at the time, at which point there are nothing else on the runway.

We are allowed to use reduced separation (down to 600 m) between light, single-engine aircrafts according to ICAO DOC4444.

[Gonzo]

In the UK.....

"Cleared to land" is a clearance.

"Land after" is an instruction. You cannot be 'cleared to land after'

"After the landed xxx, cleared to land" is a clearance.

[fireflybob]

"Land after" is an instruction. You cannot be 'cleared to land after'

Maybe semantics but from a piloting perspective it is an option as one might elect to Go Around - same goes for "Clear to land".

[Gonzo]

True, but from that point of view everything is an option as every input can ultimately be disregarded by the aircraft commander in the name of safety, be it an ATC clearance, a company diversion request or a flight plan change.

[babotika]

The CDG landing clearance is an "anticipated clearance" given when a rather complicated set of conditions are met. Separation is still with the controller, should any of the conditions for the landing clearance no longer be met it will be cancelled.

Reason this happens is frequency congestion - the controllers are responsible for 2 independant runways (one take off, one landing).

[Neptune262]

Unfortunately ICAO Doc 4444 is not that clear on the matter.

See the picture (Figure 7-3) in Section 7.9.2 and read the text in Section 7.10.1

Then read the text in 7.10.2 which can be seen to contradict this.

The words "reasonable assurance", "will not normally be permitted" are not the best......and then of course there is the... "unless otherwise prescribed by the appropriate ATS authority"

If you need to find doc 4444 then google it and you can get enough of the current edition to see what I mean.

Note: It is surprising that the USA way of doing things is acceptable to ICAO, when most of the world does it differently. I would have thought that pilot understanding of the words was the paramount factor here.....seems not to worry ICAO that there is no global standard.

As an example of the USA way of doing things, you can listen to the RTF from "Audio Las Vegas Aircraft Fire" (YouTube) regarding the BA B777 and you will hear the cleared to land on 07R for two aircraft before the B777 tried to depart from 07L

[blissbak]

No surprise, USA is not part of the ICAO, FAA is a different world.

[Mach Jump]

In the USA, the phrase 'Clear to land' seems to be equivalent to our 'Land at your discretion', in the same way that 'Clear to start' is equivalent to our 'Start approved'.

In the first, you must not infer that there is no traffic on, or between you and the runway, and in the second you must not infer that there is no-one standing in front of your prop.


MJ:ok:

[evansb]

The United States is a Council Member of ICAO. It is also listed in Part 1,

ICAO States of chief importance in air transport:

Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Russian Federation, United Kingdom and the United States.

[vector4fun]

In the US, it's also quite legal to have more than one light, single-engine aircraft operating on the same runway, so long as they are more than 3000' apart. In other words, quite legal for one to be crossing the threshold while another is rolling out 3500' ahead, and a third is turning off 7000' ahead.

And at Oshkosh, they operate closer than that. :E




(I don't recall ever getting four aircraft on one runway at the same time though, except when operating as a flight.....)

[chevvron]

In the US, it's also quite legal to have more than one light, single-engine aircraft operating on the same runway, so long as they are more than 3000' apart. In other words, quite legal for one to be crossing the threshold while another is rolling out 3500' ahead, and a third is turning off 7000' ahead.

And at Oshkosh, they operate closer than that. :E




(I don't recall ever getting four aircraft on one runway at the same time though, except when operating as a flight.....)
At the PFA Rally at Cranfield in 1997, I once had 7 on the runway and 14 on final with (thankfully) no departures!

[ex-EGLL]

Managed 4 on 28R at Heathrow many moons back:

#1 Cleared to Land, rolling way down the far end
#2 Land After
#3 After the Landing lineup and hold from full length
#3 After the Landing lineup and hold from block 16.

Shame the bossman was up visiting, he didn't seem impressed.

I guess 5 could have been possible on 28L if you throw a "crosser" into the mix.

[Red Dragon]

t the PFA Rally at Cranfield in 1997, I once had 7 on the runway and 14 on final with (thankfully) no departures!

Perhaps, but you weren't providing an ATC service!

:)

[ChickenHouse]

I tried to recall, but I guess the OP is right, I cannot remember getting a clearance "as number x" in the UK - never really thought of it. In other parts of the world I remember a lot of instances like "cleared to land as number two after Mooney ahead turning base, report traffic in sight" or "cleared to land purple, on the numbers, as number six".

Reflecting this, I came across a similar topic: if you receive a "continue approach as number two" VFR in controlled space and number one receives clearance to land, when do you turn base?

[pineappledaz]

if you receive a "continue approach as number two" VFR in controlled space and number one receives clearance to land, when do you turn base?

When you feel that as a pilot you have given yourself enough space for the aircraft in front to land and vacate, easier if the one in front is a touch and go. If you muck it up and get too close expect a go around.