The F/O taking over Control!?

[skippy777]

What would you all suggest is the "right" way to do so, if say the Captain does something against SOP's?

What would you do if a Crew Member seems drunk (or under the influence) at Check-In? How would you solve that one diplomatically?

Just curious to see what ideas come up.

Thank's for the input.

[Captain Stable]

Ah - the old interview questions! ;) At a critical stage of the flight (descending below DA and not visual, for example) just do it. "I have control, going around". At a non-critical stage of the flight, such as the cruise, there's not so much urgency and you can express your reservations about non-SOP actions verbally. Important at first not to be confrontational:- "Captain, I'm not happy about this - can you explain your reasoning?". If you disagree with the reasoning strongly enough, you can request he still does it by the book and you both ask Training Committee/Fleet Manager about the SOP later. At this stage, you could either request a full briefing on what he intends to do and then you give in until you're on the ground, which might be the safest course of action, or, if you think what he is proposing is actually dangerous and he still refuses to go by SOP, then it might be an idea to get a witness to the conversation (a senior and experienced member of Cabin Crew, for example). But do not fly again with him again (even on the next sector) until it has been sorted out with company. Bear in mind that you may be wrong, and the whole thing simply a misunderstanding of what it says in the book. Under no circumstances fight over the controls. Have a quiet word with them on one side away from the others. Suggest they go sick. If they refuse, get another member of crew (preferably someone senior) to do the same. If they refuse to pull themselves off the flight then let them know that, if they don't go sick, you will let company know exactly why they are unfit. Their choice.Any other ideas?

[fireflybob]

Excellent answers from Captain Stable.

If it's against the SOPS but in your opinion safe then, having brought it to his attention, there is little point in having a punch-up about it on the flightdeck.

I would however discuss the matter after landing but as Captain Stable puts so well make sure you have got things right first!

In short if it's a matter of life or death then it's "I have control" and argue afterwards.

[john_tullamarine]

I know of at least one major airline which has, in recent times, included formal procedures for the inflight situation.

In general terms, there is a request for clarification/discussion/briefing, then a specific set of words to be used which REQUIRES the captain to respond, followed by the FO's taking over.

This appears to address most of the likely situations, including subtle incapacitation, and seems a good idea to me.

[DeltaTango]

It seems to me that if a captain goes against SOP or tries to fly while drunk/seek or otherwise incapable I would expect him to continue doing so and not just agree when the FO says "I have control" yet you all seem to think this is enough?

DeltaTango

[Mowgli]

Depending on time/urgency required:

(using appropriate tone - not easy to describe on paper)

1. Could you tell me why we are ......

2. If we continue like this we will....

3. Captain, I am not happy......

4. Captain, I have control...

[skippy777]

Delta Tango,

I do agree with you, that it might be hard to convince on "old" Captain, that what he is doing is actually wrong or against the SOP's!

To the other guys thank's for your input.

[stormywx]

Curious if anyone knows of a time when a FO has taken control of a flight and what the outcome was?

[Captain Stable]

As an FO I have taken control. The captain had misread the plate and we were heading towards high (and rapidly rising) ground in IMC. I pointed this out (somewhat urgently :D) and the captain disagreed.

I took control and we landed, the skipper acting as PNF (somewhat huffily).

After landing I took care to debrief in as non-confrontational a manner as I could manage in the circumstances, at the conclusion of which the captain admitted he had been in the wrong and apologised. We carried on.

I hasten to add that taking control from the other guy is a big deal. (In none of these am I considering incapacitation).

Delta Tango, the fact that it is a big deal is what (in my experience and that of one or two others I know) has them relinquish the controls, generally wondering what they've missed, and grateful that someone who has seen the whole picture is getting them sorted out.

If they will not relinquish the controls, assuming we land without damage to us, I would raise it very urgently with company. The danger of two pilots fighting over the controls cannot be overestimated and one who will not relinquish control in such circumstances needs to be grounded pending further training.

For a captain to take control from an FO may damage his confidence. For that reason, it is important to sort out later exactly what the problem is, re-establish the team concept and that we're all looking out for each other, etc. etc.

For an FO to take control from a captain he will need to be very, very sure that this is the only way to conclude the flight safely. He will also need to be sure that he can defend himself in any subsequent inquiry.

After landing, or at some significant point (preferably after a debriefing), if necessary it may be sensible to pull the CVR CB's.

As for flying when drunk, that's the biggest no-no in my book. DT, I see no reason why it would be difficult to persuade the captain from doing so. But give him a way out. Let him retire with dignity. If he won't do so, then (having had another crew member act as a witness) ground him, by phoning company.

[b55]

The deepest whispsers on this, that I've heard about, say the captain does allow the "taking over" as a way out of the mess, with a quiet "Thank you" at the end of it. The problem is that very few of these get reported. There's a hidden "iceberg" of danger out there in this area of our flying. The questions that comes to my mind being " Are the expectations getting too many on the normal airline line captain? Does the job need to be re-defined"?

[411A]

<Does the job need to be re-defined?>

Well, if by that you mean that the aeroplane needs to be run (ultimate responsibility) by a committee, than the answer is... positively NO.

Suspect that many First Officers would like to have more say, but this is not likely to happen anytime soon...as in, don't hold your breath.;)

[skippy777]

YES Captain 411A. that is excactly what I was scared of! Some skippers thinking that they will not make mistakes and be reluctant to hand over controls. No, it should not be a cooperation or anything like that, I agree with you. I do not know of any F/O's in this business that want more control than they already have! Most guys I fly with, respect the skippers (that deserve respect). And the few guys that are not respected are the ones that would make it hard in case of a handover. Because they try and run it like a one-man show. And Sorry, but in the kind of operation I am in that does not work! Maybe where you are from it is different and the CDR is the allmighty.

[Shore Guy]

The situations discussed are what I believe to be the “toughest call” in this business. Taking command as SIC may be a very difficult thing to initiate, and career altering if you are wrong, but accident reports are rife with situations where the SIC (or F.E. or jumpseater) realized imminent danger and said something but did not assert themselves to the point of taking control of the aircraft. One of the most analyzed accidents in aviation history, and still the most deadly, was Tenerife…..it would not have happened if the F/O had put his feet on the brakes and asserted his authority on his observation that they were not, in fact, cleared for takeoff. The many landing accidents that resulted from unstable approaches are another example. Many airlines are now establishing an absolute altitude (ours is 500’ AGL) where one must be in the slot or a “no-fault” go-around must be initiated, providing some specific guidance to both crewmembers for this critical decision.

The Tenerife accident was the stimulus for the development of CRM courses for most airlines, and most of us have been through the courses, read the literature, visited it at recurrent…..but…..there has been very little guidance provided in this area…..when does the F/O take over from the skipper?

While the protocol is established for the captain taking control, we have all witnessed/heard of the extremes in this area also….. the antsy captain who proclaims, “I’ve got it” every time he/she is uncomfortable, or the captain who will not take control during an obviously deteriorating situation.

What is the answer? I really don’t know. More emphasis during CRM training exploring these scenarios would help. Analyzing incidents/accidents where strong input by the SIC would have changed the outcome should be part of this curriculum.

Any Training Managers out there who care to comment?

[S76Heavy]

As a relatively junior Cdr (offshore helicopter ops) I make it a point in briefing any F/O that I fly with that "I am relatively new to the position, therefore I value all of your input at any stage in flight. I may step in and take control whenever I feel unhappy, it does not reflect on your performance as much as it does on my inexperience as a commander in these conditions. "

Furthermore, when acting as PF I try to give a running commentary on what I do to keep the copilot in the loop, and as PNF I try to keep them happy about the flight by keeping the critisism to a minimum but instead discuss different options that are available.

I always offer a debrief after the flight, I tend to learn a lot from them too..

In doing so, I sincerely hope to create an open atmosphere where the copilot would readily take control of the aircraft should I get it seriously wrong.
But I also make it clear it's not a real democracy, as I will get pulled into the CP's office first if it goes wrong.

BTW our Ops manual calls for 2 challenges unresponded to, then the PNF takes control and takes the a/c to a safe altitude.

[ww1]

To all F/Os: If your captain is dumb enough to show up drunk, call the purser to help you confirm his condition (gotta cover your backside, too!), pack up your bag, then LEAVE! I know this will open a big ugly can-of-worms investigation, but what's a guy to do? The possible alternatives aren't very pretty.

[Fred Elliot]

411A

A reply in your usual understated, reasoned tone, I see. And worth exactly the same as the paper it's written on.

Re: Drunkenness

The 'staff answer' in my Company (and others, I believe) is designed to relieve you, whether captain, F/O, No1, etc., of any ambiguity is 'report it straight away'. This is because the Company has mechanisms in place to deal with/ treat/ rehabilitate alcohol abuse. The system cannot be brought to bear if the problem remains hidden. It works, too: I know of folk who have been treated for alcoholism and returned to line flying eventually.




A packet of giblets and four pounds of tripe, is it, Emily?

Fred.


:rolleyes:

[BlueEagle]

If a crew member turns up smelling of drink, (not necessarily obviously drunk) then they cannot fly, don't think anyones argues with that?

If you are lucky enough to work for a large carrier that has its own station staff you could always mention your fears to them, the Station Manager can then engage the crew member in conversation, satisfy himself that the person smells of drink and they can contact the company HQ.

[Land ASAP]

Never had to use the phrase but apparently this one does the trick....

Having failed to communicate ones unhappiness at how the flight is progressing, one must prevent an incident/accident by shouting "Captain! (dramatic pause) Listen to me!" followed by your serious misgivings. If that doesn't work, then its Tenerife all over again. As for taking control? Wow, that really IS a bad day.

411A, why do you treat this topic with such disdain? We are talking about an issue that cost over 700 lives on a foggy day in Tenerife. I appreciate that you like to stir up things on other threads, but to provoke the less informed (ie. journalists and non flying persons) with such a 'tongue in cheek' comment about the worth of FO's is NOT FUNNY. It is sad. RIP those who have died due to poor Command CRM.

[Bally Heck]

Which of the respondents to this thread do you think is the biggest CRM problem and would be the most difficult to persuade to turn away from the mountain ahead chaps?

[Jetdriver]

Also worth remembering that Captains do have authority to vary SOP's when unusual circumstances may require it ! Normally you would hope that time would permit the situation to be briefed, but not always.

[411A]

Jetdriver,

Exactly my point.
A few First Officers still do not appreciate that the company ASSIGNED a Commander to the flight for a very definate reason, and that he has ultimate (as in legal) responsibility for the actions of the entire crew.
Does this mean that the Commander should not consult (and listen to) the concerns of other crew members? Certainly not.
Does this mean that other crew members should not communicate their concerns to the Commander. Again, certainly not.
What it does mean is that the company EXPECTS the Commander
to operate the aeroplane according to the specified procedures (including absolutely input from other crew members) and use his best judgement during that operation.
That is WHY he is the Commander, and paid the big bucks.
In over 30 years of professional flying I have received only one complaint from a First Officer, the company investigated same, found it had no merit, reassigned the First Officer to another fleet, for an extended period. This was a management decision, not mine, because this particular guy was a known troublemaker.
This is as it should be, because management has a responsibility to shareholders and regulatory authorities.
In short, someone has to be in charge, and it ain't the co-pilot.

[sharpshot]

I was always under the impression that Co-pilots / F/O's were there to learn from their peers. (On the basis that generally they do not have the hours in their Logbooks are not as wise and maybe lack a few grey hairs).
That's not to say that the actions of one's peers should never be questioned, however, reading this and other burgeoning threads, there seem to be many keen to userp the authority placed on the commander's shoulders:(

[HugMonster]

I think I would be very worried if any F/O was "keen to usurp" his Captain's authority, or if he was not interested in learning. I was always taught that an F/O is a Captain in Training.

However, I would be similarly worried if any F/O were blindly to say to himself "It's all right, he knows what he's doing" if he sees the captain having made a mistake, pacify his worries with how much he's learning, and spend the rest of his (suddenly shortened) life not doing anything further for fear of "usurping the Captain's authority".

If he does anything you don't understand, question it. If you don't get a satisfactory answer, express your worry. If you still don't get a good enough explanation, express your concern LOUDLY AND FORCIBLY.

When all else fails, take control.

Sharpshot, you need to learn the difference between an FO learning, respecting the Captain's authority and allowing him to make the decisions on the one hand, and being subservient, passive, compliant and failing to be part of the team on the other.

[bugg smasher]

Would have to agree with HM on this one, tis' a fine line the F/O sometimes has to walk.

[Land ASAP]

You perplex me, 411A. Aligning yourself with the anti-pilot 'junta', yet bragging of 37 years of experience as a commander. Standing alone, you provoke (on the majority of occasions) thread creep for reasons I can only fathom as being a fondness for your own voice.

Perhaps you could enlighten me? Why is it when a direct question is asked for justifying your extreme views, you more often than not, ignore them.

Let us imagine PPrune was a 'highbrow' debating program on TV. Do you think if you were a guest and you voiced extreme views with no justification you would be invited back? You are a tabloidesque and desperately opinionated.

Perhaps the reason you return to fight pointless battles with individuals who out-rank you in intellect is that you can't get away with bullying in your work place! Your contributions to this thread would back this theory up.

[canberra]

on the subject of drunken pilots didnt ba have a captain done for drink driving within an hour of landing from a flight that he was in command of from la?

[BlueEagle]

In the good old days it was not uncommon to have a 'Landing Drink', (or two), this would not happen until everything was shut down and the pax disembarked etc. no chance of having to work again for the participating crew. Such drinks were usually initiated by the IFS/Chief etc. and enjoyed by all.
It would have been possible to have been totally legal throughout the flight from LA, enjoyed a landing drink and then got 'done' whilst driving.

[TowerDog]

Oh yeah, remember the landing drinks in the old days:

In Hong Kong, after long flight from India, parking brake set, F/E pours drinks on captains command, but with no APU on the DC-8, the Nr. 4 engine is still spinning. I was a brand new F/O and did what I was being told to do.
Not a healty practice in the long run.

The road to a career as a taxi driver could indeed be very short.

Then there are the storys of the really old days when the DC-4s returned from long 2 week trips half way around the globe.
Time to celebrate when arriving home for sure.
Sometimes the celebration in the cockpit would start on final approach.
One time the command to pour another drink was done with the mike keyed.
The crew was met at the gate with police and breath testing gear.

Not any more, no even smoking on the flight deck, no single female horny F/As either.
Old grandmas or homos in the back.


Aye, the good old days...:D

[411A]

Ah yes Tower Dog...the good 'ole days.
On my first approach to HKG (with a check Captain in the OBS seat) the Purser comes up and asks...what kind of reverse thrust will you require Captain? The check Captain mentions that ...hey, come to think of it, perhaps four fingers would be appropriate...as I am busy with the CC NDB approach, I don't think much about this, as heading toward Stonecutters in the driving rain at 750 feet has got my full attention. Upon parking, four fingers are served up, Jack Danials black label...really nice folks in the good 'ole days.

Land ASAP,

In my present company, as I am "the boss", things are done my way, and the Board of Directors says so.
Next question?;)

[bugg smasher]

Times have changed to be sure.

Threaded a diesel eight once upon a time through tall tropical storms onto a poorly lit strip in deepest darkest Africa, landing drinks were present in the cockpit before rollout was complete, bless the loadie.

After the GPU was connected and the last engine spooled down, a deep silence settled over the bug-infested patch, crew bus didn’t show until dawn. Seems the relevant locals forgot we were supposed to be there, probably because we were four days late, not, in my opinion, a significant passage of time in those parts.

Anyhow, one bottle led to the next, amazing really what freight animals carry in their nav bags, damn near solved all the world’s most pressing problems.

Ahh, to be young, fit n’ feisty again, what I would give for a video of that liquid bunch of disheveled cackling old hens pouring out of the ship on that hot and moist African morn.

[Land ASAP]

Thank you for answering the question

[Pegasus77]

My guess is that 411A is just very proud of his 4th stripe, and he goes to bed wearing his uniform and sleeping on the left side of the bed.

In a very few cases the captain didn't want his control to be taken away and started a fight. In such a case the strongest pilot wins.

In one case after hitting the FO in the face the captain realised that what he was doing didn't add much to safety, said he was sorry, and helped the FO out as PNF.

From experience I can tell you, taking over control is not the funniest or nicest thing to do, and I would only do it if the airplane would be in immediate danger.

Like already stated in this thread, in more than 80% of the accidents, where the captain and the FO had different opinions, the FO was right, and if he had taken over control, all those accidents wouldn't have happened.

Sorry 411A, even you, as a big shot captain who is given command of a real aircraft by his company, are human, and humans make mistakes sometimes.

P77

[frontdeboeuf]

And as the Fletcher Christians are taking over......

[Captain Stable]

frontdeboeuf, please be very careful about posting inflammatory and possibly racist comments here.

A F/O taking control is not an act of mutiny. He is not, therefore, to be equated to Fletcher Christian.

A Captain is not, by any means, always right. Check the Alitalia DC9 incident at Zurich in 1990.

A F/O is not, by any means, always wrong. Check Tenerife.

What we are considering here is safety, not a power struggle. Please remember that.

[Plane*jane]

These interview questions are fine and dandy in an office environment where we can be brave, but in reality, the Copilot taking control from a Captain is a very very tricky thing indeed, and should only be done if lives are imminently at risk. That is because if a situation has deteriorated we are dealing with overstress in the cockpit and behaviour is now at it's most unpredictable, from denial "I have it!" when he clearly has not, to freezing on the controls. The aim surely is to restabilise the situation.
Perhaps a more constructive approach is to immediately start giving defined goals that the Captain can action promptly, eg reduce speed to xxxkts NOW, or stabilise the aircraft by 500 or we should go around. BUT DO IT EARLY. There are few accidents that occur by surprise and a rapidly deteriorating situation should be arrested early. It's no use mumbling about I'm not happy and then preparing to snatch the controls because in past accidents experience this doesn't work. Copilot is there to HELP the PF for goodness' sake, so do it by guiding him through, then at least there will be 2 guys flying not one. I am reminded of the SAS MD-80 dec 1991 where an assisting Cpt brilliantly coached the Cpt through JUST by telling him repeatedly "Look ahead" and just held this man together successfully, and of many many fatalities where the copilot did nothing positive, although there was plenty of time to rescue the situation.
As far as drunkeness is concerned, just imagine that your family is on the same flight...........you don't fly, as the 2 US pilots recently found out.
Those that are strutting their stuff about Commander this and that might be interested in how a Captain could operate a flight effectively. The Captain has the authority for the flight which is constant. However leadership depends on who has the most experience or knowledge of the situation NOT necessarily the Captain. A great captain shows his strength by allowing his crew to take the lead under his authority for better management of the flight, whether it is simple guidance in an unfamiliar taxiway,or airport, where valuable input must always be respected, or a critical situation where the copilot has spotted something or understands something the captain has not. In no way is a Captain abdicating his authority by taking his lead from the copilot and he will in turn earn respect from all. The safety of the flight is all. Let's hear no more of the solo Captain and standby copilot. I thought this had almost disappeared.

[411A]

I wonder why some junior members here have difficulity understanding that...
The co-pilot is SECOND in command. Hello? That is number TWO.

The company says so.
The appropriate regulatory authority says so.
The traveling public certainly expects so.

Do they NOT understand?

Captains in training?....From some comments here...hardly.
When their time comes...maybe, IF they can pass the upgrade assessment, certainly NOT before.
And ALL companies have this assessment requirement, whether the co-pilots like it or not.

Them's the rules guys, like it or lump it.

[West Coast]

Riddle me this 411, is there ever a time that a FO should take the controls? Short of a medical condition or things of that nature. Have you ever had a FO save your bacon? Say no and I know your a liar.

[411A]

Never had a F/O take the controls....but have had them point out conflicting traffic...by the few that actually look out the window from time to time.:rolleyes:

[West Coast]

Thats not my question, have you ever had a FO point out something you were doing wrong, not a grey area, but one where you were clearly in the wrong?

[Pandora]

From the 'vastly greater experienced than me, obviously' 411A;

"I wonder why some junior members here have difficulity understanding that...
The co-pilot is SECOND in command. Hello? That is number TWO. "


My reply; yes, I am a FO, and I understand my place in the grand scheme of things, but I want to live long enough to be a captain, and if you, or any other captain ever tries to kill me with their flying (or lack of it), I WILL take control. I have not done it yet, but have come close to it once. Call me a coward, but I didn't want to land on a taxiway, and the captain had that bunny in the headlights look about him. EVERY FO worth their salt is a competent copilot right up till the day when they have to make the decision 'do I want to embarrass the captain and take control from him or do a want to be a big greasy stain on the tarmac?'


411A, if you were that great a captain you would certainly be showing a much greater understanding of CRM than you are doing.

[411A]

Would suggest, Chuck, that your actions in the situation you describe were quite justified...the better question IMHO would be, what was wrong with your management?
Therein lies the problem.
In the companies I have worked for, the fellow would have been booted out long ago. Proactive management is a better solution..."office" CRM if you will.
In todays environment, the DirSafety should take action immediately with complaints such as yours..in yesteryear that DirSaftey position was not available, so the Chief Pilot "should have"...unfortunately in some companies the "good 'ole boys" club ruled...generally not good, as you noticed.

West Coast

Offhand, I can recall one time. While maneuvering to land at Paya Lebar (the old Singapore airport, if you don't know) the First Officer mentioned "airspeed". As I was at Vref+30 it should have been OK, but his airspeed was ref+20. Suspecting instrument error, I handed over to him and he completed the landing (in a 20 knot direct crosswind, not easy for a junior guy new to the B707).
This was particularally satisfying as the First Officer was under line training, and were instructed to SPEAK UP if they noticed something not to their liking. Worked good then...works good now. I would prefer to call this...crew co-operation.

[West Coast]

But no where in your alleged long and illustrious career have YOU been wrong and been saved by the FO?

[TheDrop]

This thing is so interesting, and so related to the CRM topic about blame and admitting your errors.

One of the worst captains I have ever flown with was a very speciel type with a good and a bad side like bonnie/clyde (?).

His most outstanding deficiency was to accept that he coul make errors and was not perfect. To himself as well as to others. To constantly prove his "perfectness" he had to put others into a bad light - f/o's, ATC, ground handlers and anyone he got into contact with. He is the type of pilot who would shout at your smallest mistake, or even things you did that were not mistakes, which he just happened to dislike. He likes to distract F/O's to make them screw up, for instance overload the unaware new F/O on line training just after reaching cruise on a short sector - so he overspeeds the aircraft. I know it was intentional, because instead of calling check your speed or check your power, he counted down from three as the overspeed warning came on. Good fun for him, and he made a very distinctive remark about this in my training files - as he did with similar things.

For him, the more errors made by people around him, the closer to perfect he seemed himself. Or that's what he thougth.

This led to several cases where the safety was not endangered, but noise abatement and similar procedures wer busted. OK, I am not the most direct and conflict seeking F/O there is, but I let him get away with breach of noise abatement procedures, because I warned him once, and he said" this is uncontrolled airspace" and turned, and ATC responded with a "You have violated noise abatement procedures, we will report you". I did not even comment or make fun of him, but imagine it was me who made that error - he would have been so upset I cannot describe it.

Another time he misread a plate, going into an airport in a valley (dead end, only one way in and out) for a straight in, then because of departing aircraft, we have to do a circle to land, with prescribed tracks on the plate. We are visual already far out, so no problem, but he misreads the plate, because he reads the distance of the first leg (where you break of by about 40 degrees or so to go on downwind) with the DME distance. I point out, that the the point at which we turn for downwind is not yet, and shows him on the plate why, but he will not admit he has read it wrong (of course). Since we are visual and the only problems can be of ATC and/or noise matters, I let him continue, and I forgot to mention it afterwards. In any case, he would not have listened anyway, just made life tough for me the following days.

What did I do then ? I had reported him - not in writing though - to the flightops director, and he said things like we should be flexible, and there should be a place for us all and so on, as to ignore my "complaint".

Today I am in another company than him, and from what I believe he is out of a job.

What I mean to say with all this is that I figure that even with the CRM courses of today, the above sort of problems with captains hiding their own lack of confidence and willingness to admit their own errors, is much underestimated. At least from the CRM courses I have been on.

[411A]

West Coast,

Not that I can recall. I guess some of us older guys are just lucker than others. Or...more skillful. OTOH, I have spent a long time with F/O line training (almost all long-haul), and the younger guys keep you sharper and on your toes.

TheDrop,

I think you mean Jeckel/Hyde (OTOH, if they shoot from the hip, maybe Bonnie/Clyde).

Nearly all companies have guys like you describe, the only thing you can do is to have a talk with the DirSafety. This is a relativly new position with many companies, and he reports directly to the CEO, bypassing the FltOps department. I would suggest however that to protect yourself, you should CYA big time. Reports from other F/O's would help a lot.

[TheDrop]

There were reports from other F/O's as well, but it is history now, he is out. But I have learned a lot from flying with him, not as much about flying as about CRM.

And of course, it will happen again some time.

[Captain Stable]

In another thread I mentioned the Alitalia DC9 that crashed on approach to Zurich in 1990.

In that accident, there was a GPWS warning to which the F/O (PF) reponded by initiating a go-around. The captain took control and forced the controls forward.

It was his last mistake.

The captain is in command, yes. But sometimes it is necessary for that command to be temporarily terminated by the F/O.

Sorry, 411A, but that's the way it is.

[Gentleman Aviator]

At a recent CRM Trainers course we looked at the PACE incremental concept.

Probe - Ask what the other pilot is doing and why - there may well be a satisfactory response.

Alert - Explain that your understanding of SOP is different from that being carried out.

Concern - Explain that you are unhappy with operating outside of SOP and wish the other crew member to desist.

Emergency Action - Take control of the aeroplane in order to put it and the crew back within the SOP safety parameters.


A key part of PACE is that all crew members realise when they are being 'PACEd'.

[Pegasus77]

If I understand correctly that 411A thinks he only once in his entire supposedly very long career got a speed-call from his FO, then he probably has the shortest memory flying around.

Besides that: the FO is second in command, and in my job-description, which I got from the same company that puts the captain in the left seat next to me as commander of the aircraft, I am there to help my captain, but I am there to watch over him as well.

Oh one small point, 411A: An FO is the deputy of the captain, when he's not there, I'm the boss (also stated clearly in our ops-manual); some companies see their FOs als captains-trainees, my company trains their FOs at captains level to maximize redundancy in the cockpit and to make it possible for me for example to take decisions and get things going when the captain is stuck in a traffic jam and will be an hour late.

P77

[BlueEagle]

Pegasus77 - If you don't agree with 411A how about suggesting he has a poor memory rather than calling him a liar? A lot less confronational for a bulletin board, don't you think?:)

Right, we have heard what F/O's think of captains, must be time for captains to relate their horror stories about F/O's? Sorry Danny, what was that you said, not enough bandwith? Oh, OK!;)

[Pegasus77]

Blue Eagle: At your service.

P77

[BlueEagle]

Thanks Pegasus, much nicer!:)

[411A]

Well Pegasus77, guess that you and I just don't agree...but hey, could be worse...you could be my co-pilot, maybe THEN you would actually learn a thing or three.
Wonders never cease.

Captains "taking over from First Officers?
Yep, for me...only once. Over the DHA vor at FL060, ATC says...descend to one five zero zero feet on QNH ...., start descent NOW. F/O (PF) does not respond, F/E taps him on the shoulder and says..."NOW, sport". Still, no response, so yours truly disconnects the A/P and starts descent...NOW. An F-5 passes overhead 'round about 200 feet above. Upon landing, F/O without saying anything, packs his flight bag and walks off the aeroplane, even though we are scheduled onward to KHI. New F/O found and off we go eastbound with no delay.
He submits report...and is promptly re-assigned to a "lower" fleet where he remained for three years...in the right seat.
No BS tolerated toward management here, the young lad is told...shape up or ship out.
Made my day.

He learned a valuable lesson...IF you try on a senior Captain for size, be prepared for the results. Sometimes, might not be to your liking.

[West Coast]

What a contrived story the above is.

I wondered how you would answer my question, a no win situation for you. If you said a FO never caught you doing something wrong even once in a career, let alone once a month, you are short on memory. If you did say a FO corrected you, then the god complex takes a hit.

Edited by BlueEagle to delete "Liar" and substitute something more acceptable, please note, West Coast, (and read posts above to Pegasus77).

[Captain Stable]

As my esteemed colleage BlueEagle has pointed out, it does little to further the discussion if we are to call other posters liars.

Please keep the posts civilised, ladies and gentlemen.

I have to admit to some scepticism concerning whether 411A has never been caught in a mistake by an F/O. However, memory can play some very strange physiological tricks. Let it go at that.

Back to the subject of the thread. I have certainly made mistakes which F/O's have pointed out to me. I am very far from perfect. For that reason, my standard briefing to F/O's whom I do not know well includes something along the lines of "If you see anything I may have missed, or if you are not happy about anything at any stage, speak up immediately. We're supposed to be a team so you look after me and I'll look after you. That way we'll stay safe."

[411A]

West Coast reminds me of a First Officer in a previous company. Always questioning the Captain, never really satisfied with the way the flight is conducted...and seemingly unhappy in general. Then I found out why. The senior Flight Engineer told me that this guy was dismissed by a very well known carrier in Asia because he simply could not get along with fellow crew members and refused to follow standard company procedures.
Considering his performance when flying with me, was not the least bit surprised.

Attitude plays a very large part in whether a First Officer is assessed for and promoted to, command. West Coast should remember this if he hopes to succeed in his career.

[Zico]

Attitude. YOU talk about attitude 411??:D :D Thats funny!

[Captain Stable]

411A, that F/O sounds like a right pain in the neck. As you so rightly state, it is important that a flight is carried out i.a.w. Company SOPs ;)

Perhaps questioning the captain is not a bad idea either if it is the captain rather than the F/O who refuses to comply with SOP's?

[Andu]

After reading this thread only in part and getting yet another (over)dose of 411A’s wisdom, I’m wishing the Moderator hadn’t decided to withdraw newcomer “411eh’s” posting privileges. His short-lived comments to debates involving our esteemed 411A were the best (if not so subtle) p-one-sstake I’ve seen in a long time.

Bring back 411eh.

[411A]

Yes indeed, Captain Stable, could not agree more. Have personally spent the last thirty years in companies overseas, and a large percentage of Captains were recruited from "other" airlines. Was told by senior management that the biggest headache with these guys was to follow the present company SOP's rather than use their "old" company procedures. Most certainly complied, but there were always that one or two who would not...and pity the First Officer that had to fly with them...because they did not know what to expect next...NOT good.
As I did a fair amount of sim training for these guys (as well as sim and line training for First Officers), I sometimes found it a real challenge to get everyone dancing to the same music.

[West Coast]

Short on mammaries..

No 411, sorry to dissapoint you, but I get along well with my FO's
If I am doing something so counter to SOP or common sense, I would expect him to take over. He is not there to stroke my ego, for me to beat down, for me to take my problems out on. I dont expect him to sit there while I tell him what a great pilot I am. I will treat him as a captain in training, I will be a mentor if required, and if as a last resort I will be a motivator via a size 12 shoe. I have not had to resort to that yet. I don't make blanket statements to those who listen about FO's who don't look out windows, I don't send people to the CP for not having a chart out. I am not a tyrant simply because of a 4th stripe.
The purpose of the FO is to ensure the safe operation of the aircraft, either by assisting the captain, or if absolutely required, taking control of the plane. It really is as simple as that.

[411A]

Glad to hear this West Coast...I guess all that reflection in Twentynine Palms (as you so aptly described in a previous post) was put to good use.;)

[john_tullamarine]

411A highlights a very pertinent point in respect of standardisation problems in airlines which are wont to use short term contract pilots.

My limited observations suggest that there are two effective ways to get around this difficulty

(a) provide an appropriate subset of the normal intake and/or upgrade training to permit the contractor to get up to speed with local customs and procedures before release to the line ... I suspect that, in the modern cost driven world, this might not always be the case in practice .. and is, of course, a contentious issue if the contract period is comparatively short.

(b) if the contractors come from the same environment, run the contract pilots as a quasi-separate operation so that crew communcation and co-ordination problems are minimised. Although this will involve an increased level of administrative and other workload, I observed this approach to work well during a recent contract exercise. This is especially useful if the contract group does not have, as a first language, the same tongue as the contracting airline's pilots.

[greybeard]

Yes,
With TAT in France 1990/92, 40 Australians, 40 Canadians, separated as individual groups in the French Company, only flew with our "Own Kind" so to speak and worked well.

One of the better jobs I have been fortunate to have been involved with.

Any others out there? we are scattered to the 4 winds now.

:D

[B clam]

Please tell me which airline you run so I know which to aviod.
That way hopefully 411A's airline will be unable to recruit, and eventually he'll end his 37 years in aviation and the skies will be a safer place.

I'm sorry, but 411A you really haven't got a clue - there just isn't a place for people like you in 21st century aviation.

Captain is legal commander - good ones know their limitations as well as those of ALL their crew. 411A - if you don't know, or won't admit to, your own limitations then you are a danger.

Is he just playing the devil's advocate or is he really so bigoted?

[TheDrop]

1300+ posts since march 2000 ? Wander what company gives you so much spare time to write all these posts, or is it all he does in his spare time ?

Something here reminds me of the famous "Guvnor" ...

[411A]

Not to worry B clam, nearly all of our initial crew have been selected already, all have lots of heavy jet experience...and what's even more scary (for you, perhaps?) is that our DirOps, Chief Pilot and Chief Flight Engineer (most older than me) all think the way I do. Just don't think you would fit in...sorry sport.:rolleyes:

The drop,

As I am one of the majority shareholders, I take whatever time is necessary....but that time will be rather limited shortly for PPRuNe due to my location overseas.

[jaguar340]

411A,

Do you remember Gulf Air A320 crash on the 23rd Aug. 2000 or have you heard about it??

I knew the Captain and he had a similar attitude as the one you showing us now.

Please read the CVR transcript (if you haven’t already), you might learn some thing and appreciate that you are still alive!!!

You can read the CVR transcript at

http://www.bahrainairport.com/pdf/CVR%20Transcrip.pdf

[411A]

Of cousre jaguar340, you are completly ignoring the fact that the concerned Captain you mention had minimal experience, problems with his training and ability to pass required checks, and seemingly was promoted to command in spite of these short commings by management intent on promoting locals irregardless of their experience.
Bit like comparing apples and oranges, wouldn't you say?

Next question?

[Brenoch]

As I am one of the majority shareholders, I take whatever time is necessary....but that time will be rather limited shortly for PPRuNe due to my location overseas.

Brenoch, I am not prepared to permit comments such as you posted here. Next time you will be banned. Clear enough for you?

[Captain Stable]

411A, I think you mean "regardless" rather than "irregardless". The question that immediately comes to mind is how a junior, possibly very new, F/O is supposed to know how a captain did on his last checkride, why he was promoted.

So no, I don't feel it's comparing apples with any other fruit. Just comparing a good apple with one with a maggot in it - how do you tell?

[Brenoch]

Just got a wee bit carried away by this persons seemingly total misaprehension of what CRM is..

But I do now realise that he´s better of in a single pilot aircraft..

However I'm still looking forward.. ;)

[Bengt Engel]

411A, is that the only way you could become a captain, to buy a company? And I feel sorry for the new guys, if the whole management are thinking along your lines...

And still looking forward...

[411A]

Capt'n Stable

Unfortunately sometimes you can't tell.
And therein lies the problem. If the company does NOT have an excellent training program, does not look at their new Commanders VERY carefully, and above all does not roster the new Captains with experienced First Officers....then the problems often have a nasty turn.
Company training programs need to be designed so that there is positively no chance that a weak guy slips through. Favoritism or the idea that "some" must be promoted to fill some misguided "quota" must be stamped out, pronto.
Company management have a responsibility to ensure that their new Captains are the best that can be had. To do less is gross negligence IMHO.

[Brenoch]

Do you recon it´s better with inexperienced captains flying with inex. First Officers??

Sounds a bit odd to me..

[BlueEagle]

Brenoch - You will have to read 411A's post again. He says that the bad companies are the ones that do NOT roster inexperienced captains with experienced F/O's.

[Brenoch]

****** me.. Off to reading class..

My appologies..

:o :o :o

[Brenoch]

phew.. is B@gger censored???

come on..

[Pegasus77]

OK, I won't talk about short memory again :D

411A, you asked for a next question: In the GulfAir case, with the inexperienced and badly trained captain.... how is an FO to reckognize that before he commences the flight?

I most certainly don't ask for training records if I start a new 5-days-tour with an unknown captain. Therefore, I'm always on the watch, which is my JOB btw, for weird deviations. No sense in dying, cos the captain thinks he can manage without a goaround (remember Alitalia DC9?) or because I would be too much impressed with the captain being experienced (and diabetic)... the fox has got it wired 411A!

P77

P.S. Honestly, I think I'm too young to die yet, and so are my passengers. Besides, I have my ATPL, and a lot of experience, which is not as much as the captain, I admit, but it suffices to be able to see if something (or someone) is really wrong or not.

[411A]

Pegasus77

Believe me, if you worked in the same company, on the same fleet, you would know.
If by some chance, you did not recognise the name, nothing preventing you from asking the guy how long on the fleet.
If you find yourself in a "problem" area, go to the fleet manager because that is what he is there for.

Not really all that difficult.

[BmPilot21]

Going back to the original question, I have never had to take over from a Captain, however I have lost count of the number of mistakes that different one's have made, and which i have picked up on. I have probably made an equal number of mistakes that a Captain has picked me up on. None have been life threatening, but my point is, we are all human, we all make mistakes. That is why the company employs 2 pilots and not 1!

As someone says, whether to take control depends on the urgency of the situation. If a GPWS 'PULL UP' alert sounded (and below MSA in IMC for instance), then if the Captain did nothing, I would have no hesitation in taking over. Likewise for a windshear or TCAS RA (Should the F/O have taken control off the Russian Captain in last week's mid air collision for instance?).

However, in less urgent situations, you have more scope to be diplomatic, and voice your concerns if you think LHS is doing something that might become unsafe.

Always a difficult call, and whilst the Catain may legally depart from SOP's / JAROPS in an emergency, he is otherwise exceeding his legal authority by doing so, and it is the F/Os responsibility to say something.

Luckily I work for an operator with very good SOPs and very standard crews, so rarely have any cause to be concerned.

[Brenoch]

Well said.. May I direct attention to the current posts concerning the GF072 flying into the sea with all sorts of GPWS warnings..