Brymon - This is unfair!

[Gazeem]

Although I am not quite ready to go job hunting yet, I keep my eye on the Aviation press.

It upset me to see that in Flight this week Brymon (and the other BA fledglings) were advertising for potential first officers. They wanted type rated pilots first off, naturally enough.

But --

what really got my goat was the fact that they would take un-type rated pilots with over 1000 hours

or graduates from a full time ATPL course.

This STINKS!!

Why should somebody who attended a full time course, necessarily be a better pilot than a modular or self improved CPL/IR with 900 hours.

Somebody who attended a 509 (and good luck to them!) is in the fortunate position to (A) be able to pay the fifty grand and (B) spend a whole year not earning whilst they train for it.

You could also have the situation where a 509 student who scraped through gets a job where a modular student with a greater natural aptitude for flying will not get a look in.

Do Brymon only want rich pilots? - or are they in bed with the training schools.

I hope the situation improves by the time I am fully qualified.

Well thats me bumping my gums enough for now, come on Brymon play fair!

:mad:

[GonvilleBromhead]

Yeah annoying isn't it (see other thread here and others besides). Just out of interest, Scroggs/WWW (and everyone else) what are your own views on the acceptance of modular courses over time ?

I myself am currently one of the masses on the modular route and firmly believe that modular guys will get jobs (maybe albeit after having instructed for a while to get to near-ish 1000hrs, probably my route anyway), but is it likely this Integrated/Modular perceived difference is going to be bridged over time ?

I know this could probably be debated till the cows come home, and probably has, but in a nutshell, any thoughts ?

Cheers.

[one four sick]

Sorry mate, but Brymon would be well down on my list. Go for some proper airlines first.

[FI]

WAKE UP one four sick there are not that many jobs out there, most of us cannot be too picky.

I have 1500 hours and would take anything that isn't flying a PA28. Before you ask, OATS 509 graduate.

The job market is still very tough and you need loads of luck to get a job that pays well enough to eat and cover your rent. If I was offered a job by ANY TP airline I would take it!!!!!

[Ivan Ivanovich]

F1

Now you have 1500 hours (as an instructor?) would you say that at graduation and 250 hours you were just as capable?

My point is that I know that I still had to think about flying the aeroplane when I had 250 hours, let alone all the other thought requirement when flying an ILS down to minima on a complex jet aircraft.

With 1000 hours I can fly an ILS without thinking so much, leaving my brain to think of other things like calling for prelanding checks!

When I did my non approved IR, I flew with guys who were at the end of a CAP509 course. You could see that there was a high level of thought going into to the handling side of the flight leaving little spare capacity.

At 1000 hours there is considerably more spare mental capacity.

Having said that, a great number of CAP509ers go onto to medium size jets and perform extremely well. Que faire?

[scroggs]

The difference between a modular course graduate and an integrated course graduate is probably little or nothing in most cases, given training at reputable schools and good continuity. An individual's ability is likely to be far more relevant than the type of course he or she did.
However, it's Brymon's train (plane) set, and it's up to them what minimum qualifications they require. I can understand why their accountants and insurers would want the reassurance of either plenty of hours, or a full-time CAP509 course for their new hires. RHS of a glass, two man cockpit, is a very high pressure place to be when under training in revenue service in very busy airspace. Brymon has a duty of care to their passengers, and they may well feel that this is the best way to discharge that duty. You, of course, may disagree, but you're not employing them - they are employing you (or not).
At your end of the aviation food chain employment is a buyers' market. There aren't that many opportunities with reputable outfits like Brymon, and they are well aware that they can afford to be fairly picky. It's your job to measure up to their requirements (as many of your peers will), not to complain because you don't qualify. Go and get the hours - and do it quickly, because the jobs market is not going to get any better than it is now. In fact, it will get considerably tighter in the next few months.

[Norman Goering]

Well said Scroggs! All the time there are more pilots than vacancies, Airlines can afford to be picky and make their own rules and conditions for applicants. It doesn't matter whether whether or not you think it's fair. If you get a job, you'll say it's okay, if you don't you won't. It's tough cheese really.

I would suggest that instead of trying to buck the system, you start to play the game. The airlines won't change, no matter how hard you complain so bite the bullet and get what they ask. If it means that much to you, you'll do it.

Yes, I do work for BACE (EMB-145) but it took me 10 years of effort to find a route to get me here. All I can say is it's worth it, even if the goal posts do move now and then. Chin's up and keep plugging away. I met a couple of chaps today doing their ATP conversions who had done 509 courses at Cabair/OATS in 97 and this is their first airline success, so it's not a guarantee doing a 509er.

[SOHCAHTOA]

Scroggs
Why do you say the market is going to get tighter in the coming months.
Just wondering

[Chirpy Pilot]

I believe alot of it down to being at the right place at the right time. I believe I was fortunate to be offered employment by BRAL with 300hours (509) and having completed an FIC rating. However on my type rating they also had employed a guy with also 300hours who did not attend a 509 course. I still firmly believe you can not substitute for experience so the more hours you have the better position you will be in. ;)

[minuteman]

In fact rather than the market getting tighter in the medium term there's going to a be a critical shortage worldwide of pilots! So get them licences and keep them valid!!!

[Tarmach]

I may be stupid for mentioning this but could Brymon be taken to court for discrimination against modular candidates? In affect everybody ends up with the same qualifications at the end of their training. This on Brymons part is very similar to commercial businesses or academia only accepting people with degrees from Oxford or Cambridge.

How much of an out cry would this generate if you went for a job in the city and they only wanted people with degrees from Oxford or Cambridge but not from say York, even though you still ended up with the same qualification. This in effect is what Brymon is doing.

At the end of the day people should be take as individuals and not generalized about.

Another question arises about monopolies. Only around 4 flying schools offer full intergrated courses, thus they can almost demand what they want!

[sydneyc]

Tarmach,

Are you referring to OATS, Jerez, Cabair and SFT?

[Gazeem]

Norman,

I am not trying to buck any system.

I am still at least 18 months away from leaving my current profession and trying to getting a flying job.

The point I was trying to raise was for discussion, and discussion can possibly make things fairer over the medium term.

It has got to be wrong that a pilot who could afford to stump up 60000+ pounds is a "good enough" pilot at 250hours whilst a pilot who has paid 30000 pounds at 250 hours (or 850 hours even!)is "not a good enough" pilot.

In fact, whilst I am not sure of the "chapter and verse" aspects, Tarmach has raised an interesting point on the possible legalities of this discrimination.

You say not to moan about things, well I look at the "rumours and news" page quite a lot, so I am just trying to practice moaning so that I am proficient when I am in a RHS. :p

[scroggs]

Tarmach, I think you will find that an employer can specify any qualifications he wants, as long as they don't discriminate by race, sex or religion. 'Discrimination' by age or qualification is perfectly legal, if there is a good reason for it. Flight safety is a good reason.
Your hypothetical example of a city employer is not a good one; you'll find that they do discriminate by business school and MBA provider. Note that no airline specifies which school you should have gone to, just what qualifications you should have before applying. The fact that only a few schools offer integrated courses isn't the airlines' fault. It would be different if BA (in this case) owned the school(s) concerned.
The bottom line is that in BA's opinion (and experience), the recent graduate from an integrated course is more likely to pass their demanding training than a low-hour modular graduate, hence the insistence on the (still low) hours for modular candidates. You are wasting your time and energy complaining about it; many airlines (including mine) insist on far greater hours and experience before they will offer even the opportunity to apply. This is not a charity for wannabes, it is hard-nosed business. If you want to get in, you jump through the airlines'hoops - and you knew what they were before you started. As I said in an earlier post, do it soon, because it will get much more difficult as the industry starts winding in its recruiting as the slowdown begins to really bite. Don't be surprised to see 1500 hours being asked for - if any recruits are wanted at all - in 6 months to a year's time.
I'm not trying to put you off, but you do need to be realistic about both your task in making yourself employable, and the airlines' right to employ whoever they want.

[Ivan Ivanovich]

Scroggs

Whilst there is little point fighting a system that isn't likley to change because we moan, doesn't mean to say that we should lay down and accept it wihtout comment.

The truth is that Gazeem an others have a perfectly legitimate complaint in that discrimination is being practised by certain airlines. In reality we must jump through their hoops, but whilst this discrimination may not be unlawful, the whole culture that this website has fostered over the years is being demonstrated here on this thread. It is a legitimate comment from Gazeem and others and one which should be treated with support rather than patronizing impatience.

As a an airline pilot, I would be inclined to look within yourself as to your suitability for the job of moderator on a Wannabes forum.

Wannabes need support. They don't need to be put in their place.

[v1rotate]

If the airlines reckon that 509ers are more likely to pass training than a modular route pilot they have rocks in their head.

It seems like all the people I talk to who have got their first airline job with low hours are 509ers. It's not like a 509er learns SOP's etc and jet famil. in their course.

I think modular guys (and 509ers for that matter) should put together a letter to these airline(s) to be treated fairly in the selection process. It is totally UNREASONABLE to be asking such a huge gap between experience levels because of course type. Everyone IS on a level playing field below 500 hours I reckon. Next thing they'll be asking for 509 course OR 1000 hours jet time together with 7 apollo lunar landings and 4 space shuttle re-entries... get serious!

[ 28 July 2001: Message edited by: v1rotate ]

[excrewingbod]

Ivan,

I think Scroggs is an ideal moderator, because he gives this forum a much needed reality check from time to time.

Whilst I don't personally agree with what Brymon are doing, they are far from the only ones. Just think of all that talent they are missing out on!

Anyway my mob are the same, but at least we do make exceptions.

[skysoarer]

After reading this thread I do think Scroggs was right to insert the reality check and I certainly support him as being a good knowledgeable moderator.

Remember the pilot shortage, as I've heard again and again, is of type-rated pilots with 1000's hours experience. Ok this *may* spur on more sponsorship schemes but, in my opinion, will probably spark a package war where airlines try to tempt crews from other airlines. Its a stupid sounding thing like that that'll probably happen.

From what I have looked at, I would personally go for the integrated approach due to the college-like atmos which will make you work like crazed students with a learning complex. I would only go for a modular route if I could run through it in an integrated type timescale. For any type of learning, repetition in a small time scale reinforces the knowledge in your brain and this is what the airlines may also think; perhaps thats why they favour integrated.

BUT, even if I had trained modular I would still apply; give them a call and discuss the situation, there maybe some flexibility and you shouldn't draw the line at the advert.

Regards

SS

BTW: Remember what the Gulf War did to airline sponsorships at the time, the market just died overnight! Now think what may happen if the trouble in the middle-east really does spark and end up involving our forces...

[ 28 July 2001: Message edited by: skysoarer ]

[scroggs]

Ivan,
if you have a complaint against my style of moderating, you can of course complain to [email protected] (Capt Pprune) and raise your objections with him. If sufficient people did likewise, and with good rationale, Danny would have to consider withdrawing the Whip from me.
However, if your objection is that you don't like the message I bring, then I'm afraid you're barking up the wrong creek. The fact that you don't like the message is no reason to shoot the messenger, as long as the messenger reports the truth. I do. The world is never ideal, and aviation is no exception to that rule. You would rather I told you that everything is wonderful, that all wannabes will make it, and that all airlines will be eternally grateful that you've put your financial lives on the line for them? Dream on, mate, because it's not gonna come from me.
You guys are all very good at supporting each other with the required platitudes when necessary; you don't need me to do that. I will guide, advise and opine when I am asked to and, unfortunately for you, when I'm not. What I won't do is bull**** you. If you want a yes-man for a moderator, you won't find him here.
So, you have to learn to deal with the real world. As I said in my first post on this thread, there is no real difference between a modular course graduate and an integrated course graduate - or, at least, there shouldn't be. However, that's patently not the way some airlines see it, and it's more than likely their experience that's brought them to that judgement. That, for you, is tough. You have the choice of doing whatever that airline requires (if you wish to work for them), or of going somewhere else. You can try an emotional outburst against the airline in question if you wish, and I fully acknowledge the therapeutic value of doing that here, but it won't make any difference.
You all have to realise that to change the world, you have to be in charge, or in a majority. You aren't now, but one day you might be. When that day comes, remember what your problems were when you started.........

V1rotate.
Interesting post. What statistics and experience do you have to back up your claims? Would you suggest that your opinion is more valid than your potential employers' collective experience? Or perhaps would you accept (until you have proof otherwise) that they have a reasonable idea of who they want and why.

[ 28 July 2001: Message edited by: scroggs ]

[Tarmach]

Scroggs,

I take on board the comments and issues that you have made. However in your first post you mention an employer can specify any qualifications he wants. But thats it though! Both 509's and modular students finish with the same qualifications. True the only difference is the time span and a few hours different. Providing the modular chap hasn't taken 20 years to complete his training; its rather academic, isn't it!

Airlines haven't made this decision in light of flight safety but rather for financial reasons because they perceive the 509er to be more competent and easier to train etc.

Yes I'm aware that discrimination does indeed take place by business school and MBA provider, but does this take place 'openly', or by the 'old boys network' of Oxbridge and Eton etc? I think there would be an outcry if a job was advertised asking only for Oxbridge graduates, although I agree this does take place behind 'closed doors'!

In a way the airlines by asking for 509's are pushing business to only one of four flying schools which offer intergrated courses.

I believe both 509 and modular candidates should be treated equally, and then selected on merit from the sim ride!

v1 rotate,

Would a bit of DIY on the MIR space station count?

The only way to change the system is to complain about it and to speak your mind. If enough people do this it will change!

[v1rotate]

Scroggs,

Over the last few months, I have met either through this forum or in person, 509 students who have got jobs within 6 months of completing their IR. I also know other Upgraders who are still jobless after 2 years. This may be just coincidence however I think the majority of 509 students are younger than their Modular counter parts. This I feel may be a factor as airlines want more years for their investment. Some other airlines (I won't name them) prefer career change pilots and the majority of them are Upgraders who got their licences whilst in their previous profession (me included).

With a requirement of either 509 course or 1000 hours, there is NO clear idea of what the airline wants! If a pilot has say 700 hours of which 400 was in a Turbo prop (Shorts or equiv) and a 509 student straight out of the course, then I cannot see or even begin to understand what the airline wants. I do know that airlines want experience, preferably commercial experience as this minimises the risk of failure in training.

The right personality profile also helps and is an important factor but I won't go into that as this is not really what I'm talking about.

Yes, sure, airlines can set any pre-requisite they want for entry but in this case, I believe that this may be an attempt to minimise the applications received thus time and money opening letters, cv's etc (administration costs). This way, I don't think they are getting the best they can possibly get from the pool of pilots only those that fit between the numbers they ask (509 or 1000hrs etc). Not sure what the statistics are for unemployed pilots (509, modular or military.) who have either licences perhaps I should start a thread?...

So, it is unfair that we have this requirement but aviation is not about fairness anyway. What I want to see is that ALL of us are given the same opportunity to start our careers in this profession be it coming from 509, Upgrade or Military. This may be only one airline that has set this standard but I hope this does not reflect what the future hiring requirements are for other carriers.

[v1rotate]

Tarmach,

In addition to DIY on MIR, you will also need 5 touch and goes off one approach in the space shuttle. The first one at Mach 5, wheels on, pull the nose up for go around, the second Touch and Go at Mach 4, then the third at Mach 3 etc. Only then, will you application be considered to be put in the pile "For consideration"

v1...rotate... :p

[Tarmach]

er.. Houston we have a problem with the goes part of the touch and go!!


We basically want pilots selected on merit alone rather than the sole criteria of type of course they have been on or how much money their father has!!

[BEagle]

I think that you'll find the buzzwords these days are 'Applicants should have experience commensurate with their age'.

A certain airline has been very happy to snap up 3 of my colleagues who were all 'self-improvers' who went on to get their FI ratings, IRs and 1000 hours. As well as FI time, all 3 were experienced flight engineers in their 30s.

[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]

[Deadleg]

OK guys, as a Brymon Capt I'll give you my thoughts. I don't know the exact reasons for the companys policy, but my opinion from the coalface is that the 509er with min hours is a good product and adapts very quickly to the 2 crew SOP driven flight deck quicker and more readily than someone who has 1000 hr in PA28 etc. No I'm not a 509er, I am an ex-GA sector pilot. However I did'nt train on DHC-8 until 2400hr(1000hr GA twin) and I personally found the most challenging aspect of my training to be the 2 crew concept. So there you are thats my opinion.
At the end of the day, It is up to the airline to decide who they want, after all, they are paying!

[Tarmach]

Thats interesting Deadleg. Perhaps its not the type of course though, but rather the amount of hours flown. For instance flying 1000 hours in a single crew aeroplane you would become very used to making your own command decisions without the influnce of others etc. However, a CAP 509er who has only done around 200 hours would not be totally mindset and would be more flexible in a multi crew environment.

I guess the proof of this would be to look at CAP509ers who have become FIs with over 1000 hours on PA28s before getting that elusive airline job. Then we could see how they adapt to their new environment!

[max_cont]

The outfit I work for has found the same thing. Low hours second officers adapt readily to two man sop's. Most of the extra training went to 1000+ hour pilots who had to unlearn all the bad habits they tend to pick up on irrelevant types.

It's no good whinging about the airlines requirement peeps. When I landed a job, the requirement was 1500 hours min + 500 hours on jet or turbo prop. You guys now get an opportunity to work for an airline that 13 years ago was not available. I would have given anything to have had a chance at a job on a commercial jet with such pitifully low hours.

The reality is, is that the entry requirements are driven by the availability of pilots, simple. Sometimes it works in your favour and sometimes it doesn't.

P.S Some guys get command after a couple of years and some have to wait 14+ years. Luck never stops playing a part in this game.

Edit for P.S

[ 29 July 2001: Message edited by: max_cont ]

[wings level]

Gazeem, why not READ the advert...
It is for a company called CitiExpress. This is the result of the merge between British Regional Airlines and Brymon, not just Brymon.
All the management will be BA and I'm sure over time more BA ploicy and atttutes will be adapted.

As a Captain with this company I will agree with Deadleg, I had 4000hr (most of it single crew) in corporate and similar flying before the Dash 8 I also found the 2 crew concept hard. 509ers are like dry sponges, tell them once and it's remembered. Ga with over 1000hrs normally have enough hands on experience to get through the sim and course.

remember these big company keep stats on what background fits in and gets through the training easily.

[Gazeem]

Wings Level, why not read my first post on this thread? I said Brymon AND other BA fledglings.

Truth be told I left the flight article at work and couldn't remember the new name Citiexpress.

Well, 27 posts later I certainly have started some debate upon this topic, which was my initial aim.

Also some Brymon air crew have got involved which is no bad thing.

WL - I focused in on Brymon because of my geographic location, I would like to eventually begin my career with a Bristol based airline, but I am realistic and will go where I need to!

:cool:

[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: Gazeem ]

[scroggs]

v1rotate,
I'm afraid your sample of 509ers/self-improvers/others is pitifully small compared to the number of active commercial pilots in this country, and thus your argument has limited credibility. You also have no insight into the recruiting priorities of the airlines, or the constraints under which they operate, whether they be commercial, financial, insurance-driven, or whatever.
As Max Cont and Deadleg have mentioned, there is considerable experience (not opinion)within the industry that recently-graduated intergrated course graduates are mor easily trained and more likely to succeed than their modular counterparts. That is demonstrable fact, and will not be changed because you might wish it were different.
Don't forget that even the smallest feeder line would prefer to employ a 10,000-hour, type-rated, incident-free, 25 year-old with no ambition to move on to greater things. That not being likely, they set their sights on what they consider to be the best they can get. Don't forget also that the minimum requirements specified in the ad are just that, the minimum qualifications required to apply. The - very few - successful applicants will probably exceed these qualifications by a considerable amount.
At the other end of the scale is the wannabe who would like guaranteed employment in the RHS of a 747 10 minutes after applying for a PPL course. Patently obviously, he or she is going to be disappointed. As you can see, both the airline and the wannabe have to accept a compromise in their ideals. In times of many more pilots than jobs, the airlines get closer to their ideal. In times of more jobs than pilots, the wannabe may expect employment with fewer hours or other strings.
Historically, you are able to get an airline job with fewer hours than ever at the moment; be grateful for this. As was mentioned above, not so long a go you would have needed 1500 hours and commercial experience to get a shot at a Jetstream 31. At the moment, some have a shot at a 737 with less than 500 hours. They are the exceptionally lucky ones, and there will alway be some of those. The rest of us have to slog to close th gap between what we can offer and what the airline wants.
Life ain't fair, and never will be. Don't waste too much of your time and energy complaining about something that is actually quite logical and reasonably even-handed. There are more important battles, although it might not seem so from your point of view just now. Your priority must be to make yourself as employable as possible, not to achieve the minimum and wait and see which airline will consider themselves lucky to have you!

[Tarmach]

Scroggs,

Out of interest how many pilots at Virgin were modular students or self improvers compared to CAP509s, roughly?

Thanks,

Tarmach

[sydneyc]

I have to add my voice to Scroggs. There seem to be an incredible number of people on this site who think the moment they move into the world of aviation, all standard business practices go out of the window - that airlines and operators exist solely to allow wannabes to realise their ambitions. Of course this can never be. Several people have mentioned how terrible it would be if City jobs were handed out to only those from the right universities - wake up everyone, that is the ONLY way it works, and ever will work for that matter.

I have seen many posts from people who feel it is their right to have a job flying after all of the training - if only life were that fair. I just cannot understand how such an idealogical viewpoint can exist amongst so many 2nd career-ers on this site. And to accuse Scroggs of not offering sufficient encouragement? ?? What is this, a forum for intelligent adults or some sort of creche?!? Maybe I'll start a thread elsewhere about trips to the zoo and set an essay writing challenge - "My Favourite Day...." In the meantime, get a grip people.

[scroggs]

Tarmach,
by the time a pilot has sufficient experience to join Virgin, the training they underwent at the beginning of their career is pretty much irrelevent. Our operation (excepting Virgin Sun, which will shortly be defunct) is long-haul, widebody 4-engine stuff only. The airline some years ago decided that 2500 hours with multi-engine experience (preferably commercial multi jet) would be the minimum for application. Inevitably there are some exceptions to that, but these have never worked well!
For reasons immaterial to this argument, Virgin is a very popular potential employer; we get thousands of applications from qualified individuals for every job available. Therefore the average new-hire at Virgin has much more than the stated minimum. Typical new-hires may be FOs with 757/A320 operators with 4000+ hours, or military fast jet drivers with 3000+ hours, or mil transport drivers (like me) with 7000+ hours, or even 55 year-old ex-BA 747 drivers with 25000+ hours. You get the picture. Whether any of us were CAP509 or self-improvers is lost in the past!
In any case, the conditions under which we started flying were very different to what pertains now, and not very helpful to you.
Incidentally, even the Virgin Sun A320/1 operation insisted on 1500 hours. We did toy with a CEP scheme, which netted four lucky peeps a part-sponsorship, but they would probably not have gone straight to an A320 RHS on graduation. They may have been placed with someone else for some experience-gathering first, or they may have taken the less-satisfactory cruise-pilot route (now also closed) on our A340s and B744s. What will happen now to those that graduate I'm not sure, as the A320/1 seats are no longer available and it'll take tham a long time to qualify for long-haul. Similar questions hang over our younger flight-engineers who, as the B742s retire, were hoping to retrain as pilot and get an A320 seat with us. These guys also have many thousands of hours of long-haul flying, although in the third seat.

[You want it when?]

Naive. As a potential wannabe (although unlikely as my eyes are not class 1) the attitude of some of the forum members is amazing.

As a senior business manager (read hirer) for a non aviation firm I set the rules on who I hire and what sort of back ground they have and what sort of skills I need them to have achieved. I have the overall good of the company (and the clients we service) to consider. Providing I do not discriminate on no-gos (age / sex / religion / disability) I can call it as I want. Just as the selectors for the airlines can.

If an airline decides that 2,000 hours total, comprising of 100 GA hours, 900 twin and 1,000 turbo prop is what they want, and you must have been trained by Mrs Smith at Bristol - then they set the rules. Although the catchment in this case might be quite small :)

The trick is to read these rules and events and to try and anticipate them - and that is where this forum really works. In simple terms if the predicted trend looks to be that RHS are only going to go to degree educated pilots then you must get a degree or work yourself into the trend somehow. As Scroggs has said - when you get over 5,000 hours the route in doesn't matter (getting there does) but from this side of the fence the route is everything. It's no good complaining that your skills and training are wrong or that their recruitment process is stone headed. Work with them not against them otherwise you will be sitting on the bench for a long time. :p Always think of the feeder routes - learn from successfull wannabes - how, what, where , courses etc...

[EM PE]

Gazeen Ivan How would you like it played? I find play by my rules or I will shout and scream, a bit churlish. Until the ad came out there did not seem any prospects for Brymon et al in the near future. They will take about another 80 or so pilots out of the system. For people who have climed a big mountain to get as far as they are, must be focused. So look on the positive side there always is one.
EM PE

[GonvilleBromhead]

I think the general consensus of opinion on the criteria set by any airline, and thus the criteria that must be met by any prospective employee, is an accepted one by most people. If they stipulate 1000 hours and you must attend the interview dressed as Batman, then so be it, that's the way you play it, no question.

However, and please do not take this as a whinge as I have already stipulated that I am more than happy to do whatever it takes (probably instruct for a year or two) to get those all important hours, but will there come a time when the APPROVED modular route is seen as attractive as 509 ?

Personally, although maybe a limited amount of truth in the GENERAL case of 509'ers being an easier package to train than modular (still not totally convinced), the ability and the learning capacity/ability can not in all honesty vary that greatly between the two populations as a whole.

All comments welcome.

And yes, agree with post above 100%. Good luck to any guys going for these posts, any recruitment and tales of success always good to see.

Cheers.

[Delta Wun-Wun]

Aviation as a whole is not very fair.Where else do you have to foot the bill for your training ?? In some cases enough to buy a small house!!!
Whinging at Brymon for their entrance qualifications is going to do what?Okay so they get rid of the bit about the modular guy with less than a 1000 hours.Now we all can apply.....But if Brymon want modular guys with more than 1000 hours,those under that figure will not get picked.
I agree with what was posted above about trying to second guess what the qualifying experience is and trying to achieve it.
And if experience has got to be comensurate with age...I will be nearly 38 when I`m qualified,modular route as well,so will be stuffed on that as well.But it`s my decision to have a career change,nobody else`s.
Most of these Airlines have a reg.VAT number not a Reg. Charity number.They are in business to make money and as they keep telling us they are not short of applicants.So like Scroggsie says it`s Brymon`s ball and we can`t play.....Mom...Mom... :( :( :(

[Harold Bishop]

This is a tough old subject and I do not think it has a straight answer. The reason most of us choose modular is because it is cheaper and can also be completed without finishing your job and getting into loads of debt.

The answer in my view is as follows: If you complete the ATPL by the modular route factor in an instructors rating, this is required because it is better than sitting around and just sending out cv's. 1000 hours seems to be the norm so aim for that. Or take out more loans quit the job and do it integrated.

Just for some more info this is from the British European Website:


:eek: :eek: First Officers ATPL (Frozen), Perf 'A', CAA 509:300 hours total, MCC, minimum 1000 hours.
:confused: :confused:

[TheNavigator]

This is really disappointing!

If this is the case what is the point of the modular route? Why not scrapping the modular route to protect the less wealthy wanabees?

Nevertheless, I still would like to see a study that demonstrates the claim that cap509rs are more likely to be successful pilots. I cannot see any science in this claim.

I think most of the people just choose one route or the other according to the their financial situation. If I had the money I would definitively go for the integrated route even knowing that the modular route would work best for me. I am not the type to sit in a classroom and let everybody else organise everything for me. I prefer to follow my own timetable at my own pace (which is not necessarily slow). As a researcher you get used to work alone and your sense or responsibility and organisation is much improved by this.

I think that both routes have advantages and disadvantages but I am inclined to say that integrated courses prepare people to pass exams which does not necessarily mean more knowledge. On the flying itself I can't see any difference at all. I thought that the only difference between the two routes was that the theory involves more hours of ground schoold for the 509 and the modular route allowed more self study and less classroom hours. If there is any differences on the flying training please let me know!

I know that there are a lot of you guys out there that do not agree with me but this is just an opinion. I still look at this as discrimination between who has and who hasn’t the money. I don’t believe that who goes through the modular route is a less able pilot.

I just hope that this changes as I am following the modular route because I cannot find the money for the integrated route, I cannot leave my current job because I need the few pounds I get out of it for the flying and I want to finish my PhD as I am not the type of person to give up easily what I have started.

Good luck everyone!

...and sorry for the english ....

[Token Bird]

TheNavigator,

I completely agree. It is discriminatory. I take Scrogg's and other's points on board about it being up to the airline and we should make sure we have the qualifications they require rather than just whinge about it. Fair enough, but this doesn't change the fact that we believe they are wrong in their decision and I don't see why we can't whinge while we work towards becoming what the airlines desire of us. Isn't that what this forum is for?

[Tarmach]

I guess it wasn't standard business practice to employ women on the flight deck 25 years ago; however that changed due to women's rights etc!

They are not discriminating over training but how much you have in your bank account.

In away its like going to work for someone but having to pay the manager's best mate £60K so you can have the job! This is what Brymon is doing by almost forcing people (who want a job with them with low hours)to opt for the intergrated route.

Well two of those training colleges who run intergrated courses already have big contracts with BA, well theres a surprise!! The conclusion is; it works very nicely for OATs and BAe by providing them with business.

This stuff about having the right qualifications is utter nonsense. Excuse me, but is there a different ATPL/IR for the modular course and a different one for the intergrated course?

Perhaps the modular ATPL/IR licence cover comes in pink? I'm not sure?!

Someone in a previous post mentioned if they want degree pilots, you must get a degree. However, Brymon want pilots with Frozen ATPLs/IRs, well thats what we're giving them, regardless of the type of course. Its not as if any of us are trying to apply to them with a mere PPL!

[Gazeem]

Token Bird, Tarmach,

I totally agree with your points.

As I said earlier I am at least 18 months away from looking for a job, and at that time I will jump through what ever hoops that are put in frount of me.

In the meantime I will continue to promote discussion on the topic (aka whinging to the high and mighty).

If there is statistical evidence that 509ers pick things up quicker, maybe this can be explained through demography not the course.

I may be wrong, please prove me so, but I suspect the throughput of integrated courses is younger than the guys who are coming up the modular route.

I suspect - again no hard facts - this is because these people have been supported by parents, OR do not have the financial responsibilities of a family or a mortgage.

Therefore I believe that younger people may be demonstrated to acquire new skills quicker.

Of course, we take the realistic views of those people within the industry, but things can change in time.

This is the forum for such debate.

EM PE so I am churlish for whinging?

As Tarmach pointed out without discussion there would have been no change.

As I said earlier I look at "Rumours and News" and I am just trying to get a few hours whinging P.u/t in! :cool:

[ 30 July 2001: Message edited by: Gazeem ]

[northern boy]

Scroggs, I belive that the ex cadets are going to the classic fleet to "consolidate their training". The theory being that they will get more hands on flying to BGI than lying in a bunk on the way to HKG.Best of luck to them. Having just done 2 years on the SUN 320's, I wouldn't fancy the classic conversion course.

Everyone else:Scroggs and others are correct.The whole business is market driven.There is a deal of luck involved although you can influence it by keeping at it in a realistic sense.If you've got 250 hrs, its no use pestering Virgin or BA for a heavy jet job.As an ex Upgrader(Circa 1995)I have a lot of sympathy with the guys who feel excluded,however its Brymons ball and they can take it home if they want.I had something similar happen when goalposts where moved back then.Just as I was starting to despair, it all came right from a totally unexpected direction.The moral is to keep at it and be flexible, it will happen when you least expect it!

The market is good at the moment, however the progression to long haul takes time and experience.Long haul flying offers little hands on and you may only do one or two landings a month on some fleets.For that reason,plus insurance considerations,long haul operators such as Virgin like you to have had a solid base of experience to draw on so that you can pull off a tricky non precision approach into Congo Bongo International after 11 hours in darkness and still have a bit of spare capacity.Theres no short cut I'm afraid.Its taken me six years working up from T/P to 320 to 340.

Stick at it guys and gals.Brymon isn't the only operator and as soon as they need folk in a hurry the requirements will change.

All the best.NB.

[The Greener Grass]

Generally there seems to be 2 sides to this discussion.

1) What are Brymon doing laying down entry requirements such as these?

2) They are the employer so they can demand what the hell they want.

Both sides are quite understandable. Scroggs has said:
The bottom line is that in BA's opinion (and experience), the recent graduate from an integrated course is more likely to pass their demanding training than a low-hour modular graduate, hence the insistence on the (still low) hours for modular candidates.


This is why 1) has arisen.
Now this opinion has presumably been formed from historical analysis, when people would have been on the old 'self-improver' route.

Re 2) - If I was the CP of a company with this knowledge then of course I would want to minimise my risk (read maximise long term growth/profit) for the company. The lack of need to process 100's of additional CV's therefore would be quite justified and the ad would be appropriate.

However the new JAA modular route is addressing the concerns of the previous system. Namely, in some cases people could scrape through the course taking for ever at a non-approved FTO, and some of them may not have been taught to the same standard/or be as current as a 509'er would be.

The problem is that industry has not seen nearly enough of these JAA Modular folk to form an opinion any different from their current one.

If this does happen then we should not see adverts like this in a couple of years time plus. However, if we still do, then it can be concluded that the industry is still short of respect for the qualification, and in which case there is an argument that it should not be offered at all, as it is of little use.

Speaking from within my current position, I personally feel that somebody who has 250 hours from the modular route would be a better choice than a 509'er.

I remember when at University having an informal chat with the admissions tutor for our course. It went along the line of number of (A level) points needed for entry. If a public school candidate had the same number of points as the 6th form college student (all other things being equal) the the college person won the place. This was because in the University's experience the person who had worked off their own back was less likely to drop out that the person who was continually spoon fed/kicked up their @rse.

I suspect as somebody else mentioned the demography of what type/age of people took which course had a great deal to do with the situation rather than the course content itself.

Not that any of that is going to help you folk with JAA Modular ATPL's I know, but it is just a little something to chew on.

No apparently 750 hours blasting a hole in the US skies in a C152 will get you an application form, and make you more trainable, because of course you will then be far less likely to have learned bad habits than when you had 250 hours :D :D .

However folks there is no point in bitching, as it will not change the situation. I bet the Oxford marketeers et al must be in heaven reading this!

[Chirpy Pilot]

Why not ask the CAA. They invented it, most airlines like it. However, potential students have a problem either paying now £60000 or the cheaper alternative. If you can afford it pay it. The level playing field comes down to cost not ability. I am a 509 graduate, I have seen many a poor pilot sponsored and non sponsored. However, I feel the cream always rises to the top eventually.

[scroggs]

I think many of you are missing the point here. We're not arguing about the minimum qualifications to work for Brymon (or whomever), we're arguing about the minimum qualifications to apply for a job. While they may say that integrated course graduates with 250 hours may apply, when contrasted with a similar-aged graduate of a modular course with 1000 useful and relevant hours, it's very debatable who would get the job. Look at it this way; they want FATPL holders with 1000+ hours. To make sure they're not missing out on the best graduates of the integrated courses (who are in demand by many of the airlines), they allow recent graduates to apply also. Does that make you feel better? I hope so, but it makes no difference to your task - to get those hours.
To those who think Brymon will regret this when they need lots of pilots, just what planet are you on? The pilot job market has never been better than it is now. Qualification requirements are lower than they've ever been, which doesn't please the airlines or their insurers - or their training departments. This is not going to last. In a year's time, hours requirements will be creeping up. If ever there is a direct equivalence between integrated and modular graduates, it is likely be at a higher number of hours, say 1000, with certain other requirements, like say 300 hours multi. You have it now as good (for you) as it's ever been, and yet you want it easier! Sometimes you guys don't know you're born.
Surely a far more productive argument would be to try and persuade the UK airline industry to open a sponsored aviation academy to cover, say, a constant 50% of the good-time entry-level employment numbers. That would ensure that it wouldn't have to close in the inevitable bad times. On top of that, there should be tax breaks for those who can't attend this academy, similar to any that might apply to, say, mature students of law or medicine. Now that, it seems to me, would be a worthwhile project. Forget complaining because you can't get a Brymon job with 250 hours. I doubt anyone else will, either.

[minuteman]

Scroggs, why did Virgin get rid of their cruise pilots? Seniority problems?

[Token Bird]

Greener,

I hope that comment you made about public school graduates was not your own opinion. As far as I know, we had to do exams and study just the same as a person at 6th form college. We weren't handed the exam answers beforehand!

TB

[The Greener Grass]

Scroggs, I fully understand what you are saying. Many of us realise that we would have very little chance will 250 hours, compared to the X000 hour pilots who will be applying to this or any other job.

For me this direct argument is not that relevant, as I have neither a modular nor full time ATPL at this time. However, I along with many others have heard the schools say it does not matter a damn which path you take, a licence is a licence, blah blah blah.

If they want 500, 5000 hours or whatever then so be it, I for one am not complaining at that, after all they are the employer! What Brymon and maybe others to come are saying is “We do not hold the modular course in such high esteem as the 509ers”.

For somebody such as myself who is in the position to choose either type of course at present this concept needs serious thought. I would be most interested in your opinion what the industry view would be in the future, as I believe you, WWW and other current commercial pilots are best placed to answer that.

I essentially am looking for minimum long-term debt, not simply the cheapest route to a licence.

Moving on to TB – hi there! No those opinions were not my view at all. That was the actual selection method used within our dept. at University that the admissions guy told me directly. I just thought that somebody else would like to comment on that line, as it seems the self-study route is not well appreciated within aviation.

However my views are that managing to pass these JAA exams with a full time job shows exceptional commitment to the cause, and for that reason I was using the Uni example to maybe validate that viewpoint. I realise that we all have to pass the same sets of exams at A-level, ATPL, and ultimately you need to be good enough period.

To sum up in one line, I would prefer to go modular, but do not wish to make even harder work for myself at the end. I am sure there are many others in this situation.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

RIGHT. I have stayed out of this thread for a long time because a) I got sick to death of the self-improver versus CAP509 debate about 4 years ago here and b) Scroggs can well stick up for himself.

However.

I am annoyed by people such as Ivan having a pop at Scroggs and this forum - sometimes you Wannabes need a dose of reality and when a long haul airline ex-RAF pilot takes the time to give it to you when he has a 1,000 better things to do with his time you should be grateful and not carping and complaining.

Nuff said.

I am a self-improver who got his airline job at 1,500hrs light aircraft time and I also taught several self sponsored "509" students and airline cadets (Aer Lingus/Airtours) to fly. There is a huge overlap between the two camps:

The worst airline cadets are are rubbish and the best self sponsored guys are brilliant. Fact, unfair, frustrating but true. You would wonder why some guys got turned down and marvel at how others got hired. Its a lottery OK. Accept it. Lifes not fair after all.

As regards Modular vs Integrated training its not much of a muchness and in time I believe the old hangover - and thats what is, convenient shorthand for time pressed chief pilots - of either 509 or 1000hr+ will dissapear. There is little difference in the training or ability of both systems given the same quality of initial student.

The market for new hire commercial pilots is fantastic.

Two of my good friend students from last year have both got jobs in the last 4 weeks after only very limited searching. I have NEVER known the market to be so good as it is at present.

Therefore you can expect it to detiorate soon as its got nowhere left to go.

Unfortunately few of you remember the early 90's where guys were turning up at the local flying school asking for ad hoc work with 1000's of turboprop hours under their belt and several years of instructing experience.

At the time BA were asking for 3,000hrs experience on one of the types they operated just to apply for direct entry. Now its 500hrs experience over a certain weight equating to a lot of heavy turboprops. And they are finding people are walking away from them when they eventually do offer them a job from the holding pool...

Brymon are a fine fine outfit to work for and it is no use moaning about their requirements. Hell, its easier now than ever to pick up a job that will give you the hours required to apply...

Wannabes need to realise that its very easy to p1ss people off in the industry with your ambition to be flying a jet airliner. Lots of the guys went through the lean years or paid their dues in the air taxi/military/regional business to get where they are today and when they hear someone moaning because a well established scheduled passenger airline doesn't quite meet their appication minima is galling to say the least.

Tack and dimplomacy chaps is 80% of CRM and its a skill that some of you need to develop.

That said this is forum for Joe Wannabe and its fair enough if you want to let of steam. Just expect a bit of steam back at you and value it if you have any sense.

Good luck,

WWW

[ 31 July 2001: Message edited by: Wee Weasley Welshman ]

[Upside]

Jolly well said you small rodent like celt.

It seems to me that some people have a problem accepting responsibility for their own actions.
Some choose modular, some choose CAP509 and we all should have been aware of potential pit falls and pratfalls before making such major decisions. Its called research!
And if you dont have the money to choose one particular route then either wait untill you have or accept the fact that you may get the sort of response that Citiexpress are giving.
Some airlines prefer Modular over CAP509. Its there money, its their training risk, so its their choice.

[scroggs]

Minuteman,
this is a bit off-thread, but this is my take on the situation.
A few years ago Virgin took on 10 A340s in fairly quick order. There weren't enough sufficiently qualified pilots around (that old story...!) to fully man the ultra-long-haul routes that need one or even two relief pilots as full-blown first officers, so they decided to recruit a number of second officers (or 'cruise pilots') with much less experience to occupy a seat during those interminable hours over Russia.
Of course, these guys had to do the full CAA ARB course on the aircraft, and needed extra sim and base training time in many cases. Once on the line, these chaps needed a training captain in the seat to get hands-on time below 10000ft, so it was extremely difficult to keep their recency up without extra base-training.
Now, these guys are all first officers, with a considerable number of hours, but a very low total of landings. This inevitably will cause some heart-searching when they come up for assessment for command.
Overall, the scheme worked at the time, but has saved us little if any cash, and is now causing what will be an emotionally-charged and intractable problem. I doubt we will repeat the experiment.
WWW: cheers, mate. I was beginning to feel I was banging my head against a brick wall!!

[were we shot down?]

Wow!
It's taken me a good 30mins to read all the comments in this particular thread and it gets a bit snappy from time to time....I hope I'm not going to be flamed too!
However, I can appreciate the points of all parties (including Scroggs who is VERY scary!). I must admit that I'm going modular just 'cause I can't afford to do it any other way, so in spite of this thread making me want to go and saw my own head off, I'd rather try and be a little more productive.

Scroggs (& WWW), if I'm going to have to obtain 1000/1500 odd hours before I'm going to get a look into a heavy jet job with someone like Virgin, what is going to be the best way of doing it (cheapest or most cost effective route would be best). How bad do you think things will get in the job market for recently graduated pilots? (I expect to be qualified in 2 years thereabouts). I've only just drawn on the first part of my CDL so if things are looking hopeless then it would be better for me to bug out now rather than getting myself into yet more debt (and I've just passed my Class 1 medical too!!)

Your words of wisdom are, as always, much appreciated.......although the truth really hurts sometimes!

[minuteman]

Scroggs thanks very very much for the reply I appreciate it you have helped me more than you realise!!!!!

[redsnail]

So Scroggsy.
Virgin takes ol' farts like me?
Never thought of myself as a Virgin though?
I got the hours, getting the JAR ATPL, just have to convince them at the interview huh?
Cheers
:D

[scroggs]

Reddo,
I'm sure the only job you really want is as a full-time, paid, Ppruner! Don't know about old farts, girl, but we take peeps up to (I think) 57 years old, as long as they have the requisite 2500 hours (or 3000, or whatever it is today) on something a lot heavier than a J31.
Minuteman,
I'm intrigued! Tell me more - and remember that the above post isn't official Virgin policy or comment, just my opinion.
WWSD
I'm sorry if my musings seem scary to you; that wasn't the idea!
The bottom line is that all airlines would like to employ experienced pilots - preferably with type ratings on the aircraft they operate. At the feeder end of the market (the bit you guys are interested in), that's not going to happen. So they specify what they think will give them the best and cheapest shot at getting useful pilots on the line as quickly as possible. That includes some who have recently completed their ATPL training.
As I think WWW mentioned above, the system has recently changed to what you now 'enjoy'. However, most airline recruiting departments are still working with memories (sometimes very painful) of the old system, in which the self-improver could achieve an ATPL with far less supervisory training than now. Under that system, there was no doubt that the 509er (integrated) was statistically a far better bet than the self-improver (modular) at low hours. Even now, an integrated graduate is more likely to be successful in line training than a modular graduate who has taken a long time to get his FATPL. That's why they ask the self-improver/modular graduate for more hours. As the new system settles down, and as long as airlines need to recruit such inexperienced pilots (which is not a given), the 'prejudice' against modular peeps with good continuity may reduce.
Notwithstanding all this, an airline operating jet equipment is likely to prefer to hire someone with a good few hours and commercial twin or turbo experience, so the low-hour graduate of either system is not the candidate of choice!
Flying heavy jets is the pinnacle of your chosen career, not the bit you do just after training. Most of the current big jet pilots did long apprenticeships on smaller equipment in provincial airlines, and that maybe after some years doing military or air-taxi stuff.
Please be patient. If you were to end up in a 747 flight deck at 25, what on earth would you have to aspire to for the rest of your career? Go and get those hours, whichever route you take. ;)

PS, WWSD: you're not going to get a job with Virgin without working for someone else first! Unlike BA, we don't have a fleet that lends itself to a structured career for new pilots. As you could expect a maximum of two or three landings a month, we like to be sure that your technique is firmly embedded in your subconscious before you come to us. As I've said many times before (including in this post), we don't take pilots with less than 2500 hours, and preferably considerably more.
As for how the market will be in two years' time, who knows? My opinion, for what it's worth, is that any recession will be fairly short and shallow. The industry has already suffered a significant drop in long-haul loads, and recruiting to the US and European majors is slowing. The UK IT airlines have been somewhat sheltered by the continuing strength of UK consumer spending, and so they are likely to recruit quite strongly this winter. UK commuters, also, haven't seen too much change as yet.
It all depends on continuing consumer confidence; if you think you might be unemployed soon, holidays etc are not likely to feature in your spending plans. Equally, businesses rein in their foreign travel. The airline industry then suffers as a result - and thus take on fewer new hires. This effect is displaced from the economic cycle by 6 months to a year, so if the slowdown ended at Christmas, I'd be expecting airlines to resume expanding by the end of 2002.
However, if my crystal ball's better than Alan Greenspan's or Eddie George's, I'm in the wrong job!

[ 01 August 2001: Message edited by: scroggs ]

[Strangely Brown]

Although I hold a Frozen ATPL I don't know that I would fit into either of the classic Integrated or Modular brackets although the previous posts have put doubts into my mind. Like many others I suppose I trained as a Modular student but under the confines of the Integrated route. I completed the training full time from ab-initio in 15 months but did not use any one school throughout. I completed an FAA PPL and built to 100 hrs. Came home for the ATPL groundschool at Coventry, returned to the states to build to 100hrs P1 and came back home to complete the fully approved BCPL to CPL/IR upgrade course at SFT including LOFT. I have since completed Perf 'A' and MCC at Multiflight. Is this a CAP509 course. Probably not, but I went through exactly the same process as an ab-initio student from Oxford, Cabair etc. I just didn't do it all under one roof because this way was considerably cheaper. I now have 400hrs as I have tried to keep current. I don't have a job yet but hope to soon. I suspect that Citiexpress would reject my application and in my opinion that is their loss. Maybe they haven't considered that students may have followed this process?

[The Greener Grass]

Thanks very much for your last input there WWW and Scroggs. If I understand you correctly you both seem to agree with my feelings that the modular candidate will start to be viewed as a not so far apart from the integrated one. Much in the same way that none of us would buy Skodas today, this may not be as quick as is deserved however!

Having just read TB’s other related thread, I really hope that nobody here thought that they would walk into a jet job with 200/250 hours. If so they really haven’t done enough research, or talked to people in the industry. I fortunately have had a chat or two (!) with airline pilot instructors, which has educated me enormously.

Personally, I feel that instructing is an excellent route to build hours for a year or two, as WWW has described it can be very fulfilling, and there’s no autopilot/autothrottle FD FMC or whatever, i.e. it is real flying.

The reason I got involved was that if an employer demanded 750 hours more on paper for a modular candidate, then it is a reasonable (if somewhat simplistic) extension of the argument that a 1000 hour integrated pilot looks the same on paper as a 1750 hour modular person.

So that is an extra year of instruction at least (or a lot of solo hours perhaps – not sure how though), which for me is fine, apart from it is a different set of maths to work with when looking at integrated vs. modular.

I am prepared to be flamed out for this, but I assume I can get a non-instructing job at 2000 hours at latest, really on the basis of examples I know. Therefore it (for me) becomes an exercise of money/time, a feasibility study if you like, hence my personal interest.

I love flying enormously, but to barrel into something blissfully unaware of the dangers facing you at the end really constitutes taking a large risk, which is something that does not sit easy with becoming a commercial pilot (IMHO).

So come on folks listen to Scroggs and WWW. Plan to spend much time building hours, and if that is not your cup of tea, walk away at this stage.

As the thread started off ‘This is not fair’ – I have an ironic smile on my face as the CP who draughted that ad probably took about 2 minutes based on his previous experience in that position and I have spent for ever it seems discussing parts of this thread. They will have far too many good applicants to give a damn if 100’s of good candidates are not eligible at application stage.

It may not seem ‘fair’ to some modular wanabee’s, but I guarantee they only have to do their selection process once and end up with a good set of pilots, so certainly operationally efficient…

[Tarmach]

Wait a minute, what about Luke SkyToddler's comments in another thread. It kinda adds another slant to this!

Its found here:
http://www.pprune.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=2&t=010340

I don't undertand Luke, I thought you did a CAP509 course too?

Tarmach

[scroggs]

Tarmach,
I don't know Luke, and I have no details of his story other than the post you refer to, but it's unwise to draw conclusions from one example.
Airlines will always employ the best (in their opinion) of the bunch that they interview. They will interview the best (in their opinion) of the bunch that apply. They will invite to apply the best (in their opinion) of the bunch that are paper-qualified for the job. That's it. Your job is to be the best of the best (I hate that cliche! :rolleyes: ).
There is always a danger that you can get 'typecast' in a role you don't want; instructors can get into a rut - and that comes over at interview. It was always true, and always will be. For some people, it just doesn't happen, whatever they do. This job has a lot in common with acting or music as a career; a lot of very talented people never get the break they need, or feel they deserve. The proportion of successful pilots is a lot better than successful actors or singers, though!
Don't let individual stories of woe put you off. You are responsible for your own career; only you can make yourself the pilot the airlines can't refuse.

[Tarmach]

Thanks for answering that one Scroggs. How do they become 'typecasted' though?

I have often thought about this down at the airfield I fly from. Some instructors seem to only spend a few years at most instructing peeps beofore going to the airlines whereas others have been there for the entirety of their careers, even though they never intented to be 'career instructors'.

Everyone puts down their success in aviation or life for that matter to luck. I feel that this does play a part but I generally believe in the maxim that 'you make your own luck in this life'.

Could someone shet some light on this 'enigma'?

[scroggs]

You get typecast if you stay so long in a role no-one can see you as anything else, no matter what your talents are. Pilots are as prone to this as actors - and instructing is the role many of those get stuck in.
It doesn't happen to everyone, by any means, and you'd have to instruct for a very long time (over 5 years, say) to run the risk of being seen only as an instructor, so don't let it worry you too much. Interesting that you've noticed it at your home base; I bet most others here have as well.

[minuteman]

Scroggs I take it you got my email...

[Luke SkyToddler]

Tarmach -

I'm not CAP509, or modular either. I'm a New Zealander, I trained on what you might call a CAP509 type program back in NZ (full time, CAA approved, reduced hour CPL/IR type of deal anyway) back in '95 - '96. Seems I've been skipping around the world ever since, instructing back home for a while before getting sick of the depressed job market there, and I moved to the UK in 1999. It hasn't been quite as rosy as advertised over here either, and I'm still instructing for my crusts ... (coming up on my 5th instructing anniversary in September actually, ouch Scroggs!! :D )

My comment on that other thread was related to my present job, which mostly involves instructing RAF flying scholarship cadets and Air League sponsorship recipients. In the recent past, several of my students have gone on to jet jobs via British Airways sponsorships and/or self funded 509 courses, once they completed their scholarships with us.

With this being largely a UK website, what many wannabe's forum followers perhaps don't realise is that in most of the rest of the civilised world, it's unheard of to get a look in to even the lowest level of turboprop operator without much much higher experience levels than poor old Brymon/BRAL are asking for.

My personal example - back in '96 when I had 250 hours and a shiny new CPL/IR, my first aviation job involved sweeping hangar floors and assembling towed aerial banners for a skywriting company back home. I was deliriously happy to have it, and my mates were all jealous, because the boss promised me that I'd actually get a few hours flying after a few months (unpaid, obviously) if I worked hard! Me and the boys at that time also must have spent thousands of hours telemarketing and database punching, trying to create a bit of single engine charter work, and working for nothing on a marketing stall the flying school ran in the local shopping mall on weekends (any joyrides and PPL students we could create, we got to fly - perhaps). I logged 120 hours in my first year after graduating flying school and 180 hours in my second. I had a night job as a mechanic at a go-kart racing track, I was signing on for the dole most of that time as well, and I believe the most I ever made from flying in that period was $150 kiwi dollars in a single week (about £45). It's taken me this long to even get to the stage of making a living out of 'just' flying without having to slide further into debt to stay alive.

I'm not trying to make a hard luck story out of all that or fish for sympathy, in fact that is quite a normal sort of career path for new flying school graduates where I come from. Right now, I'm pretty happy just to be in the position of having finally cracked this mythical 1,000 hours and being able to start applying for some of these regional airline type positions at long last.

What should be crystal clear from the words of Scroggs is that the airline business does not owe anyone a break. Flying in any capacity is one of the most prestigious, sought after and desired jobs in the world (as the mere existence and popularity of this forum indicates!!) At this end of the market, they could specify that we should all have degrees in basket weaving and we'd all rush and do them and they'd still be overwhelmed with 'suitably qualified' people. Whether we think it's fair is a matter of supreme indifference.

I knew what the deal was going to be when I got into aviation, and walked into it with my eyes open - I may periodically have a good old bitch about my circumstances after a hard day, but I'm still acutely aware of how lucky I am compared to people who don't get to fly for a living, I wouldn't trade places for any money. Perhaps certain people on this forum having a go at the likes of Scroggs for telling it like it is, need to open their eyes a bit more.

[scroggs]

Luke,
what you say is so, so true. Magnified many fold by where you are, no doubt, but it will do the UK wannabes no harm to learn that they are the blessed in this field!
We do get quite a lot of Kiwi wannabes on Pprune, but with your small population and your lack of profitable medium-range international routes, it's no surprise that jobs are difficult in your part of the world. That's no consolation to you, but a salutary lesson to the Europeans here, I hope.

[redsnail]

Aviation isn't an easy game to crack.
I consider myself "lucky" in that I have done a lot of different things flying wise.
Instructing, charter, scenic, coastwatch, regional airline flying.
I had 400 hours before I got my first part time job as an instructor. Why so many hours? I got ripped off by my first flying school. No such thing as PPRuNe then! There was a recession in Oz so I needed to keep working as a lab tech to pay for the mortgage.
In 1994 I left every thing in Sydney and headed off to the Kimberly region in Oz. That's a good 5 day drive from Sydney.
Stayed there and washed planes/swept hangars waiting for an opportunity to fly for a living. Over 4 months later I passed the check ride and started flying. First job with 500 hours. Not on a 737, not on a Dash 8, not even a Bandit, but a Cessna 206! Believe me, I wasn't complaining. A full time paid flying job!! At least 50 other pilots DIDN'T get a job that season (in that town). Persistance and practice paid off. After 2 years of that (eventually getting onto the Partenavia after attaining 1500 hours) I got a great job flying Islanders for Coastwatch. I eventually got onto the Shrike. Now, that was a fun job. Flying around paradise looking for things. :D
With 3300 hours and nearly 2000 hours on twins I managed to get a job as an FO on Bandits and Twotters in Cairns. Another stunningly beautiful part of Australia.
As the FO I had the joy of loading and unloading the plane as well as flight planning and supervising the fuelling. + greeting the pax and briefing them as well as handing out the tucker. However, I was just happy to be flying turbines!
After 18 months of that and with over 4000 hours I got a job flying Dash 8's.
Things happen as they often do and I decided to come over to the UK to convert my ATPL to a JAR one. I know what the score is here but I also know it is much much better here than in Oz for jet opportunities.
A few times I have thought about chucking in this career and doing something else. However, as my Mum told me, I have had too much fun to walk away from it. It's difficult starting over again but I have seen and touched the sky. I want to do it again. :D
One thing I certainly have noticed, the harder you work the luckier you get. Also, if you appear to be putting in the hard work, then nobody minds giving you a hand.
Good luck to you all.

[redsnail]

Another thing, my accountant (of all people) gave me this piece of advice before I went to the Kimberley. He said, "this is a small industry, every one knows every one. There fore, be on your "best" behaviour all the time. A check ride will determine if you can fly, but what the operators will be looking for is a person that can fit in and work with the other employees and the clients."

This forum is a classic example of "a small industry".