Flying in Holland

[aftermay]

My daughter has just moved to Germany and we are planning to fly out and visit her (C-172) next month.

The most direct route would take us over Holland but there appears to be an awful lot of restricted airspace and a fellow pilot has told me that you "can't fly VFR" in Holland. That sounds a bit drastic! can anyone throw any light on the situation for VFR flights there?

TIA

[Maarten]

I fly to Midden Zeeland regularly and find that most enjoyable and no problem at all. Obviously it is only just over the border but the track to Germany from there should be straight forward.
As long as you stay out of the Class A airspace around Schiphol you should be fine.

[Hairyplane]

It is of course possible to fly VFR in Holland. However, they do require you to have a transponder.

Having said that - I flew through Holland recently in my 1936 Miles Falcon - transponder bust on the way down to Dover (law of sod) - Dutch were fine about it.

You will be talking a lot of the time to Dutch Mil for a Flight Information Service. Very helpful indeed. THe Dutch like us Brits it seems!

I recommend Midden Zeeland - great Restaurant on the airfield and nice long/ wide grass runway - very good waterside hotel in sight of the airfield (cheeeep!) - 10 minute walk or blag a lift.

Hilversum is also really nice.

In Germany, a cracking place to visit is St Michelisdon. Superb restaurant on the airfield - served by a delightful late 30's (phoooor!) lady with bumps in all the right places.

So - relaxing, scenic flying in Holland - you will lose quickly count of the windmills - and low - level is pretty normal there too - you will likely be cleared 'not above 1500ft'. No mountains to worry about in Holland.

If you go into town (Utrecht) from Hilversum, there are bicycles everywhere - all lunatics on them - you need eyes in the back of your head. Funny to fly all that way and get knocked down by a cloggie on a pedal bike!

VBR

[Reichman]

Flown through Holland many times. VFR, no transponder, no problems. Even got some help from military radar once when the weather was crap (and they let me fly through several MATZs to avoid weather). I would also recommend Midden Zeeland, nice airfield and very helpful people there. I've also been into Schipol VFR in a Cessna 310, again no problems as long as you stick to the published procedures (don't let the fact that there are hundreds runways put you off, it really is quite easy and good fun). Enjoy.

[bookworm]

Is it possible that the "fellow pilot" was getting confused with no night VFR?

I fly over the Netherlands regularly, approximately COA to RKN, IFR of late but many times VFR in previous years. The bulk of the airspace in the southern NL is class E above 1500 ft, which means no clearance required for VFR but higher VMC minima than you may be used to.

Dutch Mil Info/Radar are brilliant, as HairyPlane suggests.

Where are you going in Germany?

[aftermay]

Thanks for all your replies - very encouraging. We're waiting for the maps to arrive at present so haven't done any real route planning yet.

Our daughter's gone to Padderborn in Germany and the most direct route (on the atlas!) looked to be through Holland.

We've done some flying in France but the rest of Europe is
unexplored territory as far as we are concerned. Its really exciting travelling to new countries but also a bit daunting at times, especially when faced with different airspace regulations in a foreign language! Bottlang does help a great deal but we are still waiting for it to arrive.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to a good route? (We shall need to refuel once on the way.)

[bookworm]

Ostend or Antwerp for the stop. Then Volkel DOM Paderborn looks about right to me. In my (somewhat dated) experience the CTRs in the NL were easy to cross, usually without leaving the Dutch Mil frequency, sometimes with a handover to the local tower. Route north of Duesseldorf and Dortmund, south of Muenster. You might get a crossing of the Duesseldorf class C if necessary, but I wouldn't count on it.

Which Paderborn airport are you going to? If you stop in Belgium you don't have to worry about customs.

[Hairyplane]

Not keen on Ostend.

THey park you a mile from the terminal - you need to call a minibus from a callbox in the Light Aircraft Park. You can then wait for a while before deciding to hoof it.

Funny thing is - the minibus is operated by the proprietor of the very nice cafe on the other side of the fence.

Want a drink? Forget it - the security guard won't let you past - you can only get there via the terminal...

So - you go to the terminal, clear, file, hoof it back (plenty to see really including a crashed Antonov freighter) fancy a drink or a sandwich? Sorry - you should have had a plastic one in the terminal. Gaze through the fence at the cafe - they still won't let you past unless you go by minibus - even though it is 20 yards away...

Wierd that. Can't be fagged with the place.

[alphaalpha]

I spent a few days in Kassel last year and did some flying around Germany, including the islands of the north coast, which was super.

Route from UK was no problem, apart from no clearance through Duesseldorf class C CTA. Read your Bottlang/Jeppesen though, there are a couple of differences to the UK. For example the standard VFR squawk in Germany changes with altitude and some areas are transponder-mandatory.

If you don't fancy Ostend (which we used for an overnight because we like the seafood) try Kortrijk. Very GA friendly and a nice restaurant.

I used English on the RT throughout.

There are two Paderborn airfields. Haxterberg is grass. Lippstadt is hard & bigger. I have flown over the letter, but not landed, sorry.

Regards

[skua]

Hairyplane

That place you suggested in Germany - is it EDXM? I can't find the name you mentioned in my Navtor database, and it sounds a laugh...

[Reichman]

I would recommend Ostend. I've used it several times on ferry flights. Shortest time landing to take off 50 mins, longest 2 hours (trouble getting the engine started).

Every time I've been there they've let me taxy straight up to the fuel pumps. The trick is to park at the pumps and, if there a 2 of you, one goes off to the terminal (about 200 metres) and files the flightplan while the other gets the refuel done.

From Ostend to Paderborn it is possible to avoid all of the built up areas and control zones without too much of a detour (if you don't want to talk to atc), but personally I've always had good service off German air traffic.

Hint for VFR flightplans around Europe: In Route section put in as little as possible ie, just put in the FIR boundary points (a lat/long will do if there isn't a waypoint) then DCT. The less you put in, the less chance of a rejection on a technicality.

Happy flying.

[bookworm]

Hint for VFR flightplans around Europe: In Route section put in as little as possible ie, just put in the FIR boundary points (a lat/long will do if there isn't a waypoint) then DCT. The less you put in, the less chance of a rejection on a technicality.

I'd say the opposite! I've had German AIS reject VFR FPLs on the basis that the flight time between consecutive waypoints was 35 minutes -- the maximum permissible is 30!

[Hairyplane]

Ostend -

When I was there a few months back they told us they would send a bowser to the Light Aircraft Park. Talking to the refueller - he said he had been doing it for years.

The Light Aircraft Park to the terminal ain't 200 metres. More like 1200... No wonder they offer a minibus ( it isn't free either..)

Maybe yours is a jet??

St Michelisdonn - EDXM -

I've probably spelt it wrongly but the designator is correct.

THe scoff there is excellent - have a go at the shnitzel (no spell checker on this!) or the waitress. Both very tasty.

[GAF4139]

skua, Hairyplane

The name of the place is St. Michaelisdonn / Sankt Michaelisdonn. It is a little town in Schleswig-Holstein just northwest of the Kiel canal and not far from the North Sea coast.

I have never been to this airfield but with the Schnitzel (pork) I would recommend Bratkartoffeln (potatoe slices fried with bacon and onions) as a side order.


GAF4139

[Belgian Chap]

I'm sorry to learn that you've had such bad experience in Ostend, however I fly there regularly (since february this year) and cannot share your views...
First of all there's no more minibus service to the terminal which is indeed a far way off from Apron3, where the GA aircraft are parked. Nevertheless, you can get a ride to the Navigation and Reporting office with the Marschaller for free! If you want to visit the restaurant (which I can recommend by the way) all you have to do is ask the lady at the Nav Office to get you a paper (In/Out) to show at the gate... The Marshaller will drive you back to your plane, walk towards the gate, show paper, enjoy your coffee/meal whatever, show your paper again when going airside again. No big fuss contrary to what you've described... and indeed the place is only 100m from your plane, right next to the gate!

[Hairyplane]

Hi GAF 4139 -

It sounds great, if a little lardy. I'll try it next time I am in Germany.

EDXM is a great stop en-route to Sweden.

Hi Belgian Chap -

THanks for the encouraging update on Ostend.

We had the farcical situation whereby we filed, walked back the 1200 metres or so to the Light Aircraft Park,, fancied a quick butty and a coke while we waited for our slot time, tried to walk past the security guy - 'sorry - you need to go via the terminal - '2400' metre trip to the restaurant that was only 20 metres away.

Anyway - knowing by now that the minibus operator, a Brit, was also the owner of the restaurant, we called her on the freephone, waved at her through the fence, she drove past the security guard, said something nasty to him and drove us the 20 metres to our table.

Same thing in reverse.

Obviously common sense now prevails, quite possibly as a consequence of our experience. She did state her intention to make a bit of a fuss.

I still reckon that a better option for us small plane drivers is Midden Zeeland - great little restaurant and everything else you need. I had the weather waiting for me when I went to the tower. Help yourself to fuel, they have a little camera on the metre.

Great hotel - never seems to have many guests - a few minutes scenic walk away.

I find that larger airports invariably mean longer delays, bigger landing fees etc.

Happy landings guys!