taxi officer?

[Captn_Kirk]

Who needs taxiing practice?
Now we might have to sign on early to taxi our plane from HAECO to the gate.
I can already picture myself being called out of standby to bring 4 or 5 planes to the terminal!

[White None]

Something for the 900 hours brigade to do..... Shhhh!!!

[Progress Wanchai]

We already do.
No credit for RTB.

This is pure genius.
Sign on early morning
Taxi aircraft around all day then fly to tpe.
All for 2 hours credit.

Why stop there?
In between HAECO ferries, why not have unproductive pilots cleaning the cabin? Filling in for a few missing traffic officers? Doing the occasional oil change? Getting an aircraft setup for 3 crew long haul so they can simply sign on 5 mins before pushback?

The options are endless.
Cathay will never have to plan an expansion again!!

[spleener]

Great, so taxi fuel is no longer an issue.

[Will IB Fayed]

Great, so taxi fuel is no longer an issue

Exactly. How does this not completely offset RETI?

[Trafalgar]

Hilarious. First, it makes a complete mockery of any RETI fuel savings. Secondly, I consider every affected flight as two sectors, great for FTL's ;-). Just when I thought things at this airline could not become any more absurd......

[Threethirty]

Maybe we could sell tickets to punters for a trip taxiing around the airport.

[cxorcist]

I have done aircraft repositioning in my previous lives and can assure you that it is fatiguing and therefore should be paid credit hours. Something along the lines of 30 minutes credit or actual, whichever is greater.

It should also count as an operating sector for the purposes of determining max FDP. You will go through most of your normal pre-flight and post-flight checks to do this. Again, it is fatiguing. To get no credit or FTL acknowledgement of this job would be wrong.

[Blowback]

Unfortunately this isn't just an issue of insufficient tug drivers , aircraft on tow have a much lower priority than all other aircraft, and can have very lengthy tow times for cover what is effectively a short distance . A bit like driving through central at rush hour .

Again we come back to the gulf between the crew and the company, an issue for which the company is solely and totally responsible .
Back when we were treated well and we're still enthusiastic about our careers . We probably would have offered to help out. Today not so much !

So yes. you want it done its a sector with credit time
I can see 3 man LRO going the way of the dinosaurs before it even starts

[betpump5]

"BA have their Red Caps, Any Ideas for CX?"

Oh shut up Mark FFS. How about that for an idea?

[Arfur Dent]

If you're in Command of an aircraft anywhere, anytime, you should be paid for it. It's not a flying club (sic) and what would the CAD do if you were to hit something whilst engaged in 'free' operations? Perhaps, if you fancy a quick flight on a nice day you could do it for nothing. Maybe it is becoming a Flying Club after all.
What are these people on FFS???
Anyway, is it in your contract of employment? No - didn't think so.
Don't do it.

[betpump5]

Arfer dent,

That clown MH plans "to do it one evening". I'm sure he can find a G day worker who wants to volunteer and get his name in CX news magazine.

My money is on a certain Airbus DCP who loves self promoting himself.

[Blowback]

I will do it , IF ! all the time from arriving at the aircraft until setting the park brake on the ramp is considered credit hours at 1.14 It's 2 crew after all
Significantly adds to my overtime, plus completely negates most chances for 3 man LRO

[goathead]

Arfur

It hasn't become a flying club , it is one. A more appropriate term would actually be ' Flying Circus'
Newsletter with the Elephant smeared over the flight deck sums it up...and this latest missive spells even more desperation

[Just Do It]

Well done to the Flying Circus Management!

Are you even capable of destroying the product any more than you have, or are you just warming up?

The company problems are your problems and you created them. Don't look to us for answers as we don't give a shlt any more. We gave you our vote of no confidence in the last questionnaire.

So if you think I give a toss what colour cap a person hides under the airplane with, your aircraft positioning problems and leaning the airline...think again!

Ask the CEO, isn't he supposed to have all the answers?

We clearly have so many Pilots sitting (sorry sleeping) by the pool with nothing better to do than taxi aircraft.

[oriental flyer]

Arfur,

What a great idea , perhaps whilst we taxi around the place we could fit in a quick circuit or two . Most of us are short of sectors

[betpump5]

Flying circus run by a bunch of clowns.

[anotherbusdriver]

I do not see how legally they could do it without paying us, and crew logging the time. Any time the aircraft moves under its own power, there must be a Commander in charge, and it is considered "block time".

I still think it's not going to solve their problems, especially when FDP is close to max limits already, but hey - taxi away and pay, pay, pay.... They will soon learn that it costs a lot more for an aircraft crews' time than just sorting out the problem.

[Fly747]

This thread has brought back happy memories of how I used to hang around the Flying Club to see if I could taxi an aircraft across the airfield to get fuel, I was so keen then. Here is another idea. How about a new grade of Taxi Captain for keen young SOs, in fact they could be single pilot too. Nothing difficult about just taxiing around is there??

[LapSap]

There are about 150 tows onto/off stand a day at CLK.
I think the point is, they can either pay you to stand around at the gate for 45 minutes while they find a tug, a tug driver, a tech to be brake man and radio operator and a lookout... Or they can pay you to drive the thing up in about 1/4 of the time.
What's the prob?

[ACMS]

Why not just send the crew, pax, fuel, cleaners, cargo and catering to wherever the Aircraft is located???

Every Aircraft at the hangar still needs a Tug and driver to push it out of its bay, there are no drive in drive out bays for our Aircraft at CLK.

Just send everything to the Aircraft.

Upside is a really short Taxy to 07R from the hangar :ok:

[Avinthenews]

The problem is we are trying to apply logic to a situation run by locals, anytime you do that you can use logic to predict the answer....

CANNOT

[ACMS]

Oh and when the Engineers tell me the spare part they need is down the hangar they will be able to pop over and get it.

Instead of making excuses after the Jets been on the ground for 2 hours and they've been too busy chatting in the flight deck filling out the ADD.

[The Management]

At "The CPG" if you have a ground return due to a technical fault, there is no credit for the time you spent taxiing to the runway and back. It does not count as a sector for your max Flight Time Limitations.

No credit and no extra sector towards your FDP while taxing the aircraft to the gate from HAECO. Live with it or leave or be fired.

When the Loading Staff start to wear "Red Hats", it will now become a requirement for all cockpit crew to wear their hats while doing a walk around. Our Check and Training staff will enforce this. If a member of our staff notices any crew from the Terminal area not wearing their hats, they are asked to take a note of the date, time and flight number so the crew will be reminded to wear their hats. A note will be put on your personal file and may have a significant impact on your upgrade. Please be guided accordingly.


To My Bonus,
The Management

[Hugo Peroni the IV]

So much of what you say is spot on, The Management, but……

if you cannot fly because you are over 900hrs, you cannot taxi!

Taxying is duty, i have no problem adding taxi time to my FDP and enjoying a room party with Cabin Crew at an outport because i have run out of hours.

Just remember, the pilots will always have the last laugh!

[crwkunt roll]

self promoting himself.
Does he say "On behalf of myself" on his PA? :}

I can imagine the conversation on the bus to the aircraft....." I'll take it up, you can bring it back".

[Arfur Dent]

Christ - are 'Hats' really a top priority in the SFC (Swire's Flying Circus). You have a lot of work to do before you get to hats mate - believe me. Hello! Hello! Anyone there……..???

[kenfoggo]

Any time that the aircraft taxis under its own power "with the intent of taking off" until it next comes to rest with the park brake on and engines shut down = "a sector".

I think that is in the A.N.O. somewhere.

[Progress Wanchai]

That's a very black and white definition kenfoggo.
Get with the program. Aviation is grey.

This is a fantastic way of low experienced cadets to get their sectors up.

The only other way is working G's.
A bit like tonight's EWR flight

[Avinthenews]

Don't blame HAECO for an aircraft that is not fixed having been on the ground for hours, they have a contract to accept the aircraft, report defects and to depart/rectify aircraft defects, it's CX that decides to book and pay for extra time to repair a defect outside the allotted contact, CX policy is to hope the defect can be repaired in the "contracted" and already paid for time.

And we all know how much CX likes to step over a pound to pick up a penny.

[poydras]

So,
Am I expecting the Haeco split duty on my next roster?
Maybe with a minimum rest between tows and no supper allowance since I was very fast and efficient?
What happen if we get a flat tire?
Should start to carry " fix a flat" in my flight bag now ....

[megan]

How much is the flag fall?

[OK4Wire]

I just cant see how its going to be much quicker. ATC will know you are simply positioning the aircraft, and should - correctly - make you last on the priority list, after all the taking off and landing aircraft have passed you by.

[jonathon68]

The whole point of the 100 and 900 hour limits is to put a cap on work-load.

Adding non credit duties onto Crew who have reached their legal limits is totally absurd. They should be recovering to resume duties once they are below the legal limits.

Duty cycles are now currently so tight, it will be difficult for anyone to do aircraft positioning prior to their report. So you can expect this to occur at the end of a trip.

Example, you operate JFK to HKG 18 hour FDP. Then push-back so you can taxi off the gate to a remote bay. Then you go over to HAECO and taxi another aircraft to a bay. Then the same again so you can taxi another aircraft to a bay. Then you go and start your recovery period.... but wait a minute. You are on a continuous duty, so tomorrow you are doing a NRT turn-around.

[Trafalgar]

I'm guessing it will be the VERY few checkers and trainers that did NOT sign the recent letter to management. No surprise to see who the few holdouts were. Pathetic in every way. Losers.

[Apple Tree Yard]

Not 'supposed' Curtain. The letter is fact, sent to AT last week. Hard hitting, emphasising fatigue, inexperience and shambolic rostering. Ends with a warning of an inevitable hull loss. It's now part of the record. If CX do experience a hull loss, and it ends up, say, in the US courts?, to have not addressed the issues raised would be catastrophic in any legal venue. The ball is in their court now. Let's see if they just bury their heads in the sand on this one....

[arse]

Nothing significant resulted from Haddon Cave; what chance does a letter from Trainers and Checkers have? Not much I suspect!

As long as the incentive is profit; and as long as the solutions to those problems involves spending money, nothing will change!

Hopefully the “House of Cards” does not come tumbling down!

[Trafalgar]

Well, when I correlate the address list of the email with the names NOT on the list, those missing names are coincidentally the very individuals that I would have suspected were lacking in character and didn't want to man up. No surprise. The telling thing is the approximately 95%+ of C and T's that did sign up. Well done.

And as for those freighter crews: I presume they are now off 'unfit' due fatigue? Perhaps the rest of us will take that step BEFORE we start falling asleep at the controls....

[Kontract Killer]

The original draft was sent to a small group of us, numbering around 30, until it was sensibly suggested that it be sent to all trainers, in an attempt to get the most signatures possible.

Not everybody hits 'reply all' and the electronic signature list was not on my copy of the final letter sent to the DFO but maybe it was on yours?

What I find interesting, are the names still responding, knowing full well the letter has already gone without their signature, saying they fully support the initiative. We all know the likely 'losers' on our respective fleets but the ultimate loser is the cock who leaked the information that the folder would be in despatch and had it removed, shorty after it was placed there for signatures.

Bet he was based in…… LHR :D

[crwkunt roll]

2 pages before the thread went completely off topic. We're getting better!

[Greenlights]

nice idea, we should do the same...

[Bob Hawke]

The difference between Haddon Cave and The Trainers Letter is ownership. Former is CX/swire, latter is now public record.

Recall, only choice portions of HC were released. When and if an event/incident (please no!), occurs then the shredding machines and defrag utilities will be running hot. However, like the 49ers it's inevtiable; what turns up from a disgruntled employee/manager at later dates may become of some concern too our current directors and managers.

Could RH become the fly in the ointment, ala wilkinsons sword. Oh the irony of it all.

[Shep69]

My sincere gratitude to those who did the right thing and had the courage to do so.

Unlike in the past, stuff like this can't be ignored in the information age. Whether it's this or ANYTHING else, it stays on record somewhere forever and isn't all that hard to get to by anyone anywhere. Shredders do little anymore; no matter what it is if the stuff's written down it's out there somewhere.

There are significant differences in how the sins of omission vice comission are weighted; at least in the court of pulbic opinion and real courts and regulatory bodies everywhere. If you know bank robbery is a crime and continue to do it it's worse than if you didn't and didn't.

So's a head in the sand approach would be fraught with peril and no one is too daft not to understand that.

[kiwicx]

so when is someone going to post a copy of this letter? it must be out there

[Trafalgar]

haha...! Well, that would be all of them aside from about three losers. Please, bring it on..!

[Arfur Dent]

Hopefully the SCMP will somehow get to know of the internal strife in CX which could adversely affect passenger safety. Trainers and Checkers are, by definition, Cathay Pacific Airways Management.

[Jn14:6]

I for one never received it, nor anything about it being in despatch. There may be others in the same boat, so don't jump to conclusions!

[goathead]

So what are all the T&C's going to do next after shes DOES NOTHING ?
Mass resignation ? LOL
Nope
No chance
Zip

[betpump5]

So what are all the T&C's going to do next after shes DOES NOTHING ?

Apply for STC and BTC positions.
Sell their soul to the she-devil for A350 training posts.
Continue as check and trainers on a base as a sweetener.
Then complain to me what a tough life they have writing reports until 2am.

[Trafalgar]

Goat head. Wtf is wrong with you ? Go ahead and mock. I'm sure that your assistance towards management is appreciated. Let's wait and see how this plays out. In the meantime, try being constrictive for once. Jeez...it's hard enough fighting the management around here without this extra unnecessary crap. :mad:

[BusyB]

He is being "constrictive":D

[goathead]

Trafalagar
Just pointing out the very obvious
Too many T&C's dont have the b#lls
Let alone the gumption to fail some of the line crew that shouldn't be online to begin with
Too much fear from above
Look at our fellow pilots on the LON OZ and KIWI base jumping over themselves to go training
Its all over

[betpump5]

I'm with the Goat on this one.

If a bunch of flagship flights are being cancelled without anyone giving a tom tit, what is a letter going to do?

Maybe this just goes to show the arrogance of the C&T clowns who think with one letter they can influence a change that 20 years of on/off CC, and union negotiations have never achieved.

Sadly a mere acknowledgement from AT is all the letter warrants.

[White None]

Firstly, I'm not a trainer. There's a ban on taking new training positions. There is not a call for Trainers to resign. If you want to change the above, propose a motion. Failing that, have you lot spitting Bile and Vitriol at the guys who trained you taken any action yourselves? Signed your name to anything? Risked anything? Hmmm - thought not. Go find an airline where the guys train themselves, Aaaah ..... problem. :ugh:

[mr did]

Firstly, nice work for at least having the guts to voice the concerns in writing. However I am finding it hard to reconcile that if these guys are so concerned about the standards and the system in place, then why are they still a part of it?

[cxorcist]

Well, that's just it! Will "they" have the courage to resign en masse? I know I wouldn't want my name on many of these licenses or even training reports. Combine increasing fatigue with the VERY low experience levels, the recipe for disaster is in place. I think I'll be holding off from that training position with or without the HKAOA training ban.

[White None]

CXorcist: Maybe I'm wrong but yourWill "They" have the courage to resign En Masse implies you think they should?

Is this because it would help YOUR goals? Or because they should be wholly ashamed of being Management Lackeys, (HELL NO that is not my view BTW), or because you would then welcome them back into the fold as Brothers in Arms despite the fact that thus far they are the only group who have gone above and beyond CC?

Maybe you and likeminded souls should for any of the above or other similar reasons "have the courage to resign En Masse" from the Airline? It would help me with my goals, help you with your shame at working for CX, and I'd be happy to buy you a beer - brother - as you applied for other jobs. Nothing personal to you in particular, I'm just sick of anonymous hypocrisy and attacks on people who are demonstrably attempting to act as responsible "Brothers"

[cxorcist]

White None,

Have you read the letter? I have. If there is no threat of follow up action, then there is no point in writing or signing the letter. Either you think safety is compromised at CX as a result of a fatigue and inexperience nexus or you don't. If those whom signed the letter believe what is contained on its pages, how can they not be willing to resign? It's like Yammer. The words are all well and good; but if you're not willing to do anything about it, it's really just a waste of time.

Taken a step further, a line captain can ensure safety on his/her particular flights by assessing his/her own fatigue, enquiring about that of the crew, and ensuring the alertness levels are sufficient to offset any inexperience or recency concerns. A C&Ter has no such ability. They either sign the license or not. Once signed to the line, the C&Ter has no control over what happens. If s/he truly believes we are in danger (I believe we are), then s/he should be unwilling to sign the licenses. Since that goes with the territory of being a C&Ter, then s/he should resign from training. The math is pretty simple in my mind.

I'm not writing this from an industrial stance, but from the opinion that we will have an accident before long. It is very likely that some combination of fatigue and crew experience will be causal. We are rapidly devolving into an airline with cockpit experience no different than that of China Airlines or Asiana. I think that is a poor choice by management. CX has always been a first world, western airline based in Hong Kong. I believe there is value in that, but it's changing.

[White None]

Cxorcist - Yes I have read the letter.

Let's be analytical and logical about YOUR comments and response.

You contend that, if those whom signed the letter believe what is contained on its pages, how can they not be willing to resign?

By that logic - of yours - should it not follow that:-

. if those who READ the letter believe what is contained on its pages, how can they not be willing to resign?

So now we arrive at a fork in the process. You, personally either:-

. a) Disagree with the letter, in which case what HAVE you been banging on about in the past? ... Or

. b) Agree with the letter, in which case, when's your leaving bash?

[cxorcist]

WN,

I guess you are much smarter than me because I don't follow.

Are you saying I should leave because the airline is verging on unsafe?

I am a line pilot. I am not responsible for the safety of flights other than those I crew. I can and do ensure a safe operation on my flights. If I can't do that, I book off. C&Ters cannot do the same, but they are responsible at least in part. No?

So why are C&Ters resignations from training comparable to my resignation from the Company? I'm beyond confused as how you arrive at that.

Maybe you should switch to decaf. I think you've lost the plot.

[Progress Wanchai]

I don't think any of the signatories are under any illusions as to the consequences of a lack of action by the board/senior management.

Resign from training or be sacked.

They've voiced their concern to management that the travelling public is at risk.
The next step is to voice their concerns to those who are at risk. ie, the public through the media.
The next step is resign from C and T.

You can't remain a custodian of a safety culture that you believe is unsafe and a threat to the travelling public.
It'd be like the head of Corporate Safety saying we're unsafe and no one is listening, yet stay in the job.

[Flying Clog]

So who's going to post the letter on here so we can all have a gander?

[White None]

cxorcist - standing by for the "will you two get a room" comments from the floor.

Thankyou for your opening, it's possible ;)

No! I.... Me.... "WN" am absolutely NOT saying you or anyone else should abandon any position in the airline. I just believe that logically if YOU dislike, and think what's going on is unsafe to the extent that you think anyone who shares those views, (The trainers) should bail then by YOUR logic YOU are just as responsible for voting with your feet as them. Personally I would exhort everyone to do their best to keep the operation safe and carry out what we've democratically agreed. CC, not JOINING training and operating professionally, no more, no less. Cheers. Out.

[Arfur Dent]

Surely you can resign from training for 'personal reasons' stating that you wish to go 'back to Line duties'. It's not a life sentence. You just don't want to do it any more????? What's the problem with that?
Big picture is if 50 'Management reps' throw the towel in at the same time ( let's
make it 49) a few interesting things would happen. Firstly the Cathay Flying Circus 'spokeswoman' would be a bit pushed for an explanation and, secondly, the public may well opt for an alternative and then, God help us all, some peoples' bonuses may be at risk!!!!!

[cxorcist]

Better yet, make it 4 resignations on day 1.

Then, if a second day is necessary, 49 more resignations.

Those numbers might ring a bell.

That illustrious anniversary is coming up. Don't waste it.

[bigbeerbelly]

Having previously worked in a company requiring taxi duties, I strongly wish this doesn't get implemented here. We were paid 15 minutes per taxi duty. Of course in the real word it took 45 or more. Pay is not the issue I have, though. It is the complete lack of support and communication that is required to make this go smoothly. In my experience there were rarely marshallers and wing walkers waiting for you. After the taxi operation, you could wait forever on a crew bus. Worst of all is that you will probably miss your commuting flight after arriving in Hong Kong. As the whole process takes an hour at best.

[asianeagle]

Having previously worked in a company requiring taxi duties, I strongly wish this doesn't get implemented here. We were paid 15 minutes per taxi duty. Of course in the real word it took 45 or more. Pay is not the issue I have, though. It is the complete lack of support and communication that is required to make this go smoothly. In my experience there were rarely marshallers and wing walkers waiting for you. After the taxi operation, you could wait forever on a crew bus. Worst of all is that you will probably miss your commuting flight after arriving in Hong Kong. As the whole process takes an hour at best.

So it's kinda like the freighter operation.... you on your own.

Next it will be sign on for taxi duties when its quiet.. i.e. back of the clock, then no transport home or taxi allowance!