China Southern Airlines

[Tame_The_Tiger]

Think twice about joining China Southern, whether you are type rated or not. Joining 777, 787 or A330 as direct-entry captain, a new contract is being issued which, although it includes an incremental pay increase over four years, also includes a clause stating that if you fail a simulator check, you are automatically demoted to F/O for approximately six months (depends on how much actual seat time you log as F/O after the demotion), and your pay is chopped all the way down to $6,000 (USD) per month during the entire period of demotion. If you are enjoying a reverse-roster arrangement, that goes away during the demotion as well. Sim checks can be very subjective and are administered by local Chinese examiners.

If word gets around the global pilot community, recruitment will dry up and China Southern will get the message.

[ao767]

Add that to the 3 month endorsement which ends up 8 or more months on training pay, 40% less than full contract pay. The reverse scheduling ports that open for 3 weeks then close as a failure with foreign pilots commuting to China for every trip, thereby being away from home & families 30% more than claimed for no additional pay yet more cost to them. And then you know why so many of the foreigners that passed the sim/medical/atp exams never go there. They don't have much credibility in what I have witnessed.

[Greenlights]

good luck in this industry

[cucuotto]

What strikes me is that a relatively small community is not able to stand for its right .There is may be a need for global union as the job is more and more globalized. Pilots can stop the world from turning imagine what at hundred of thousand of member union would be capable of on a global scale.

[outside limits]

Forget about China Southern unless you're unemployed. Even then it takes 9-12 months to get a start. From then on its continuous frustration trying to deal with non SOP, flawed instruction technique, punishment culture, incompetent managers, 2PIC, unexplained failures, smoking in the cockpit, ......... On an on......anything else I've missed?

[The Crew]

Safety Bonus
Airlines in China often offer this every year, around US$ 6-8000.
However , what they dont tell guys is that there are dozens of reasons ( if not hundreds) that the company can give you for not paynig it, eg Not having your headset on throught the cruise or filling in every line of the flt plan/ fuel log. Its happened.

Point is, as is often the case in China, whats written isn't necessarily true, or close to the reality of day to day ops.

[Willing to Fly]

Safety Bonus
Airlines in China often offer this every year, around US$ 6-8000.
However , what they dont tell guys is that there are dozens of reasons ( if not hundreds) that the company can give you for not paynig it, eg Not having your headset on throught the cruise or filling in every line of the flt plan/ fuel log. Its happened.

Point is, as is often the case in China, whats written isn't necessarily true, or close to the reality of day to day ops.

Does anyone have any more up-to-date information on CS?

[Qbix]

Does anyone have any more up-to-date information on CS?
are you the last desperado of 2023?

[Willing to Fly]

I guess so. They seem to have a few job postings out there right now for the 787. I was hoping someone had some information on what things were like over the last decade or so.

[Qbix]

I guess so. They seem to have a few job postings out there right now for the 787. I was hoping someone had some information on what things were like over the last decade or so.
I wouldn't look there. The work conditions go down with all their cultural bs each year and at the same time the contracts haven't recovered from pandemics.
The ME is gonna be the new gold mine 👍

[Oasis]

China as an economic power has peaked, things will be getting progressively worse over the long term.

[Willing to Fly]

I think this is in the ballpark of what was being offered pre-pandemic. You get paid what you get paid in order to put up with the BS. I get that. I'm trying to get some specifics on the BS and what things actually look like there now.
As a Canadian, China is the only country I can work in and maintain Canadian Residency while at the same time not paying any income tax on earned income. Anything in the Middle East requires uprooting the whole family and leaving.

[FlightDetent]

maintain Canadian Residency while at the same time not paying any income tax on earned income

Agreement Between the Government of Canada and the Government of the People's Republic of China - Canada.ca (https://www.canada.ca/en/department-finance/programs/tax-policy/tax-treaties/country/china-agreement-1986.html)
3. Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraphs 1 and 2, remuneration in respect of an employment exercised aboard a ship or aircraft operated in international traffic by an enterprise of a Contracting State, shall be taxable only in that Contracting State.

Rumor mills report 180/USD after tax per logged hour being the running rate in PRC, perhaps 220 for international. A major obstacle is the low basic around 4k/m, lack of transpacific connections, and the pre-requisite of holding a CAAC licence.

TL;DR
The ballpark is pre-pandemic -30% in nominal, never mind any inflation adjustments.

[Willing to Fly]

I can't say I've read all of that agreement either. Chinese airlines all pay the local Chinese income tax for you and provide proof of payment. This way you don't pay a top up tax back home. I'm not aware of any other country where this occurs. UAE, Qatar, etc definitely do not (not that you'd be likely to rotate from there anyway).

I'm sure the contract rates I can figure out. I personally wouldn't do it for 30% less than the pre-pandemic number despite the tax advantage.

Any info on what a typical month looks like? This is the harder thing to figure out.

[FlightDetent]

Well, good luck to you and a happy new year, lunar calendar or otherwise.