Logging IFR/Instrument Hours

[AvEnthusiast]

I know this might have been asked before and probably several times, and I run a search, but couldn't find what I was looking for, therefore, please excuse the repetition.

Well in commercial air transport you are almost always under an IFR flight plan and you would usually refer to your instruments mostly in take offs and landings even if you are in VMC, however based on FAA definition of Actual Instrument Flight time, you would hardly get to log and would be burdensome arranging to log instrument flight time, night time, ... etc.

Thus, my question is how do you log Instrument time?

Some people log portion of their take off and landing into instrument time, while some take 10% to 15% of the total flight time into instrument time. While EASA pilots log IFR and they don't care about actual instrument time. This breaking down of flight time into different segments and time-frames is a burden and to some extent seem ridicule.
So what's the best method for logging instrument time (if we proceed with EASA IFR only, then how can you answer how many hours of instrument you have, if asked by FAA oriented people)?

[AvEnthusiast]

210 reviews and no response. just to refresh it.

[Tinstaafl]

Don't mix the two. Flight under Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) is not the same as flight by reference to instruments (IF). Some regions/Authorities or employers are more interested in one, some are more interested in the other. Most log books have an IF column + a user definable column. If your log book doesn't have a blank column then rename an unused column. If you're in a region (or think you might eventually need IFR logged time) then use the spare column for that and log IF in the IF column.

It's not unusual to log little or no IF on any given flight. I've had any number of *IFR* flights with zero IF.

[Denti]

If in doubt simply log both. Even EASA talks about logging IMC/IF time, although only in the remarks column as it is not needed for anything in euroland.

Personally i don't bother with that, but i do have a job in europe. During training in the US of course i did log both, IF time in my FAA log book and IFR time in my german (JAA didn't apply to us back then) log book.

[AerocatS2A]

You should of course log your actual instrument time. Personally I can't be bothered with that and I just log any instrument approaches I fly as IF.

[westhawk]

how can you answer how many hours of instrument you have, if asked by FAA oriented people)?

61.51
(g) Logging instrument time. (1) A person may log instrument time only for that flight time when the person operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

Pretty clear. Pun unintended!

westhawk

[Denti]

Which is easy if you log it the US way from the beginning, but might be difficult to achieve if you log it the EU way (IFR time only, the EASA doesn't care about instrument time except during initial training).

[Centaurus]

You should of course log your actual instrument time. Personally I can't be bothered with that and I just log any instrument approaches I fly as IF.

"I just log any instrument approaches I fly as IF. [/QUOTE]


Some would call it cheating. Some would call it wanking. Some would call it both. I recall seeing the log book of a first officer who flew for Ansett Airlines of Australia. He claimed 5200 hours total time of which he logged 2800 hours as inflight instrument time. The weather in Australia is generally fine most of the time

His cheating paid off though. It didn't hurt him in the long term as he got an eventual command with a well known Hong Kong operator so by now he would have over 15,000 hours and probably around 12,000 instrument flight time of which probably 99% would be on autopilot.

[AerocatS2A]

Some would call it cheating. Some would call it wanking. Some would call it both. I recall seeing the log book of a first officer who flew for Ansett Airlines of Australia. He claimed 5200 hours total time of which he logged 2800 hours as inflight instrument time. The weather in Australia is generally fine most of the time

His cheating paid off though. It didn't hurt him in the long term as he got an eventual command with a well known Hong Kong operator so by now he would have over 15,000 hours and probably around 12,000 instrument flight time of which probably 99% would be on autopilot.

I'm quite certain it results in me under reporting my IF. 12 minutes every couple of weeks is hardly excessive.

[nick14]

EASA has clarified this for all under EU law:

IFR time is the time an aircraft is operated under IFR, for commercial ops that is block to block.

Instrument flight time is time when the aircraft is being operated by sole reference to instruments.

If you want to be sure log both (I used to add a remark but have no need to now)

[wannabepilot1991]

VFR by day or night: Not above 3 Octas of cloud within 5 nm radius
Special VFR: 1.5km visibility, cloud ceiling 600ft, 2 way radio communication, must be in CTR [may not be planned]
ATZ, ATZ, CTR: 5km visibility, 2,000ft horizontal, 500ft vertical
1,000ft AGL & FL100: 5km visibility, 2,000ft horizontal, 500ft vertical
FL100 to FL195: 8km visibility, 1,5km horizontal, 1,000ft vertical

If none of these fulfill the scenario, then that particular portion of flight should be logged as flight conducted under Instrument Meteorological Condition.

If it is a training flight and the pilot flies solely by reference to instrument, then that particular time during which the pilot flies solely by reference to instrument would be logged as flight conducted under Instrument Meteorological Condition.

No Flight above FL195 would be considered Visual Flight. The time spent above FL195 should be logged as instrument flight time.

[Denti]

VFR by day or night: Not above 3 Octas of cloud within 5 nm radius

Really? What is wrong with flying VFR under an overcast sky? Or above for that matter.

[wannabepilot1991]

Really? What is wrong with flying VFR under an overcast sky? Or above for that matter.

Apologies for that. What I meant to say was , a VFR flight can be conducted above the clouds unless the cloud cover is 3 Octas or more within a radius of 5nm.

And you are absolutely correct in saying that a VFR flight can be conducted below the clouds covering more than 3/8 of the sky but a separation has to be maintained and I have mentioned the minimum separation required to pursue such a flight

[Tinstaafl]

Why on Earth would flight above F195 be IF? I've flown heaps of hours above that level in beautiful VMC. No way could I claim that I was controlling the aircraft by sole reference to instruments ie IF.

[Radix]

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[wannabepilot1991]

Well I haven't got the opportunity to fly above that level as yet, so may be you are right, the day might look vmc but according to sacaa car part 91 no vfr flights are allowed above fl195. In uk, no vfr flights are allowed above fl200 or aircrafts flying at transonic and supersonic speed.
Now i don't know why this limitation has been set, may be altitude cannot be maintained with reference to horizon only.

[AerocatS2A]

VFR does not equal VMC, IFR does not equal IMC! You can be flying IFR and be in VMC, in which case you would not log any instrument flight time. In some parts of the world you can spend months without flying in IMC even though every flight you do is on an IFR plan.

[AerocatS2A]

Now i don't know why this limitation has been set, may be altitude cannot be maintained with reference to horizon only.

More likely because, for whatever reason, ATC does not want to deal with VFR flights in amongst all of the airline traffic. In Australia you can be VFR up to FL245. Rules about when you can and can't fly VFR have nothing to do with when you should log instrument flight time.

[Tinstaafl]

Wannabe, you're confusing 'Visual Flight Rules with 'Visual Meterological Conditions', and 'Instrument Flight Rules with 'Instrument Meterological Conditions', and the logging of Instrument Flight time (IF)

Flight under VFR requires VMC however flight under IFR can occur in IMC or in VMC. VFR presumes that the aircraft can be controlled by visual reference to external cues. IFR does not - however it doesn't prohibit it either, if meteorological conditions are suitable. That an aviation authority specifies that a particular set of rules must be used above a certain altitude is irrelevent. USA uses F185 for mandatory IFR, Oz uses F245, and the UK uses F200. Apparently where you are uses F195. To follow your logic, it's possible to control an aircraft perfectly satisfactorily using external references in Oz at F210, but suddenly become incapable the moment the aeroplane crosses into the US or your region's airspace at that same level. So you can easily be operating under IFR and be in VMC, and controlling the aircraft using external references, no matter what altitude you're at.

The rules that allow you to log IF are pretty similar in all the regions I've flown: You must be controlling the aircraft by sole reference to the instruments (or providing inputs to the autopilot). If you're using external references then IF is not loggable. Nowhere in the IF logging rules is it a requirement that you must operate under one set of rules (IFR or VFR) or another.

[wannabepilot1991]

Wannabe, you're confusing 'Visual Flight Rules with 'Visual Meterological Conditions', and 'Instrument Flight Rules with 'Instrument Meterological Conditions', and the logging of Instrument Flight time (IF)


Well, I wasn't confused between VMC and VFR And IMC and IFR. Infact on many occasions, I also have flown under IFR flight plan but logged 0 IF hrs as the conditions were VMC.

What has got me confused is that here in SA towards the eastern coast, it happens often that we have a clear sky, 9999 vis but no visible horizon hence VFR flights get cancelled or granted special VFR. I have also heard one of my instructor say during my MCC training that the conditions might look VMC all the way upto 36000ft, but not much of horizon would you see at that altitude so pilots log as IF time.

I really appreciate you guys trying to sort out my confusion and I stand corrected regarding fl195 and fl200 but how would you log your time spent in such a condition where there is no horizon for I log such a flight as IF excluding the time spent on the ground and from the time I have the airfield insight until the aircraft stops.

[Radix]

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[Intruder]

If you cannot discern a horizon, how can you keep the wings level without reference to instruments?

[Tinstaafl]

Use the ground you can see that's closer than the Hz.

[Radix]

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[AerocatS2A]

You could use a bit of Night VFR introduction...

It doesn't make it IMC, or does it? Ergo, if it's VMC, you can fly VFR.

The law that allows you to fly VFR doesn't tell you how you should achieve the aim of keeping the wings level... How do you maintain your altitude without reference to the instruments?

Disclaimer: I do find Night VFR a bit of a conundrum.

There's more to VMC than just keeping the sky up. I think it's generally accepted that flying night VFR requires more reliance on instruments than day VFR does, but there are a whole heap of other things that are consistent with VFR flight such as visual separation from other traffic, visual separation from the ground, and visual circuit procedures.