Commissioned Vs NCO Pilots

[tqmatch]

Ok fellow Pruners, genuine question here.

Why does the RAF & RN insist that all of their driver dudes are commissioned, where as the Pongo's will take NCO pilots?

I know that perhaps Sqn Ldr Jeeves would not be too happy sharing his precious aircrew crew room with someone who dare not be involved in passing the port at each mess night, but seriously, what's the REAL need to have the RAF/RN crews commissioned?

[Two's in]

I would link the threads, but I'm just too lazy, suffice to say this subject has had many an outing on this forum if you just dive into the search function. The conclusion is always the same - it just depends on which Mess you are looking from.

[Rotate too late]

What he said.....:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Pay? .

[The Old Fat One]

.....................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrK5j68eCWk

[Sloppy Link]

What HE said........:ok:

[PlasticCabDriver]

There are a number of papers in the Staff College library about that very topic, mainly about rotary AAC/RAF transfers of assets.

Most draw the conclusion that while it is possible, and may in fact be a good idea, the disruption and upheaval caused by such a move considerably outweighed the minimal operational benefits and cost savings.

The ones I found were all written by Army officers.

[minigundiplomat]

I'll get my popcorn.

Haven't watched a thread like this go on a complete, tedious and pointless circle in weeks.

[Pontius Navigator]

MGD, you haven't, where have you been?

Should it be linked to VC10 sqn ldrs.

[SimonK]

Oh sweet baby Jesus......not this crud again. I'm off to start a thread on which is the best service and why the others are rubbish :E

[airpolice]

I am surprised that this topic has come up so soon.

I thought the "Should we bin the Red Arrows to save cash" was next on the list, followed by two or three Nimrod threads then a "Sea Harriers were better than GR4s" and THEN the "NCO Aircrew" question.

[Rotate too late]

No, the sequence has changed, you didn't get the email?

[Lima Juliet]

Don't think that you'll save much on pay:

Fg Off to Flt Lt pay range - £31k to £46k with RRP(fly) of £14-£38 per day

Sgt to WO pay range - £34k to £49k with RRP(fly) of £7-£20 per day

So why bother otherwise?

LJ :cool:

[Danny42C]

tqmatch,

"The rank is but the guinea's stamp - a Man's a Man for A' That !"
(Burns)

As one of (I suspect) the very last who "had a foot in both camps" - I had a year as a Sgt-Pilot, then two more commissioned in WWII - perhaps I might add a word or two.

I was told that, pre-war, the idea was that the Officer was there primarily to command troops. In the case of the RAF ("the best flying club in England"), he flew aircraft more or less as a recreation in his spare time. As there wasn't all that much flying to be done, it worked out all right. The Navy was of a like mind: an Admiral got into hot water for voicing his belief that: "A Naval Officer's ability to fly an aeroplane is of no more interest to the Navy than a Bank clerk's ability to play rugger at weekends is to the Bank".

Came the War, and suddenly there was an awful lot of flying to be done, and you would need a lot of Officers to do it - far more than you needed to issue the orders. Some bright spark thought: "Why does a pilot need to be an Officer ?". Of course, he doesn't, and Trade Group 1 (Pilot) was established.

It was obvious: when you got your wings, the "Lord's Anointed" from Cranwell and a few public schoolboys would be commissioned. The hoi-polloi went into T.G.1 and promoted Sergeant (F/S after one year, two to Warrant Officer). We were not alone in that, Germany and many other European countries had Corporal Pilots as well.

The US had "Flight Schools" (min: two years' College reqd for entry). You were graded as an Aviation Cadet during flying training, with your wings came 2nd Lieutenant's gold bars. The US offered the RAF places (the "Arnold Scheme") at these Schools from mid'41 to '43. We sent out 7,000+ LACs from ITWs, and got 4,000+ pilots back (the "washout" rate [40%] sounds enormous, but it was on a par with their own Cadets). Of the RAF LACs who got their dollar-silver USAAC wings, I would guess no more than 20% of us were commissioned by the RAF, the rest came back as Sergeants. (There was a rumour that we were granted honorary commissions as 2/Lts in the USAAC ! - but that lacks credence).

When I joined 110 Sqdn in India at the end of '42, the only Pilot officer on "A" Flight was (acting) Flt Lt Topley (the Flight Commander), he had one F/O Nav, all the rest of us (8-9 Pilots) were Sergeants. You must not think that the Sgt-Pilot in Britain during the war was held in any lesser esteem than his P/O counterpart. Everybody knew that many of the BoB pilots were Sergeants, they'd done as well as the officers. Socially, in class-ridden Britain, their wings "ennobled" them: a young lady of such blue blood that she could not possibly associate with the "brutal and licentious soldiery". would consent, [I]faute de mieux, to go to the Ball on the arm of a Sgt-Pilot or Nav or AG.

In Calcutta, the Grand Hotel would allow through its portals officers - and aircrew SNCOs (but no other Sergeants !)

The Sgt-Aircrew was much better off, too - as a Sgt I drew 13/6 a day, had a tiny Mess Bill and no exs. An Acting Pilot Officer on Probation, I believe got 11/10 to start, but had a proper Mess Bill and all the exs. I had no responsibilities - I don't think I issued a single command in my whole year.

The Sgt-Pilots continued post-war, there was a half-baked idea in the '50s to remove the anomaly by creating a separate SNCO rank structure ("The Hennessy Four-Star System" - P4, P3, P2 and Master Pilot), with no powers of command (on the ground). It was universally derided, and did not last long, but its last traces (the Master Pilots/Navs/Sigs etc) were around for quite a while until they all died out.

Then we went over to the all-officer Pilot/Nav system we have now (and the one we started with). End of story.

Danny42C

[BBadanov]

Danny

A very good summation.
It was exactly same same here in Oz. I guess you would expect that as the RAF was modelled off the RAAF. Or was it the other way around? Always get confused on that !
Also after WWII our NCO aircrew went briefly through that similar P1, P2, P3, P4 debacle. By about 1960, all pilots and navs commissioned.
(Sigs a little later in the mid 60s, when they became AEOs - which was subsequently switched back to NCO AEAs.)

[Pontius Navigator]

Oh dear Danny, a sensible answer. :)

Thanks for that it answered a question i was going to ask.

Now, sadly, another serious question: drone pilots.

How does their pay stack up with flying pilots?

Supplementary question, could they cross over?

[Army Mover]

In my opinion. I always thought it was about command; the whole point of the RAF is to fly things, the commanders at all levels in flying squadrons need to be aviators of some sort. To develop the best commanders, you need a large pool of potential candidates, if you introduce Sgt Pilots into it, you would be diluting that pool.

As others have already said, there is no clear financial saving, so what benefits would be gained?

[Pontius Navigator]

Army Mover, the RAF toyed with the command/erk system back in the 50s.

The anointed went to Sleaford Tech and were awarded a General List commission to age 55. The hoi polloi went to boot camp for 4 months, taught to use a knife and fork and march in straight lines and then awarded a commission on the Supplementary list. Age for age they could then revel in being more senior to their 'betters' at Sleaford Tech for the next 5 years. Thereafter, if they passed the B exam, they would remain ad flt lt to age 38 (originally 41). If they didn't pass the B they became permanent fg off free of all responsibilities. It was even possible to have a flying commission for just 5 years- just enough time for a full 3 year tour!

Their tech superiors, even as flt lt, got flt cdr slots and sqn ldr in their 30s. The except was those selected as ADC who, if they didn't cut it, might languish as flt lt to age 55 or become VSO themselves.

With the regular reductions in numbers of aircrew the pool, as you say, shrank and the supplementary list was abolished.

[teeteringhead]

In addition to the "not much difference in pay" argument, some of the papers mentioned before also note that commissioned pilots serve - on average IIRC - about 5 years longer.

Now about the Nimrods/Reds/Harriers....... :ugh:

[Tankertrashnav]

Danny, as usual an excellent and informative reply.

You've told us that NCO pilots had no problem being accepted as equals by their commissioned opposite numbers, but what about by other NCOs in ground trades? In Len Deighton's excellent and well-researched book Bomber there is mention of resentment among long-serving NCOs who had worked their way up through the ranks seeing the Sergeants' Mess suddenly filled with 19 year old boys with brand new stripes on their arms. Did you experience any of this?

Incidentally, I wonder what happened to all those P1 and P2 etc sleeve badges - in 30 years of trading in militaria I only ever saw one set of them at a fair, and the price being asked was well into 3 figures

[The Old Fat One]

In Len Deighton's excellent and well-researched book Bomber there is mention of resentment among long-serving NCOs who had worked their way up through the ranks seeing the Sergeants' Mess suddenly filled with 19 year old boys with brand new stripes on their arms. Did you experience any of this?

You don't have to read a book or go back too many years to answer this one. just ask any of us "plastics". OK, it was not an every day occurrence, neither was it a rarity and sometimes it was a little full on.

FWIW I went to Sleaford Tech as 32 year old NCA Flight Sergeant and I was a called a plastic to my face by a course "mate" who was an SAC Admin Sec. He flunked IOT and got recoursed and then totally failed Navigator training as well.

Chiselling little dritzekt.

[Army Mover]

.... You've told us that NCO pilots had no problem being accepted as equals by their commissioned opposite numbers, but what about by other NCOs in ground trades? In Len Deighton's excellent and well-researched book Bomber there is mention of resentment among long-serving NCOs who had worked their way up through the ranks seeing the Sergeants' Mess suddenly filled with 19 year old boys with brand new stripes on their arms. Did you experience any of this?

This still goes on in the Army; certain trades enjoy accelerated promotion on completion of a course. One of my colleagues in Berlin was a 26 year old REME WO1(ASM). Ammunition Technicians were another group that seemed to get younger as they went up the ladder.

[Danny42C]

Didn't meet much of it during the war. Would have been understandable, though. Here you are, a Fitter (Eng), say, who has worked hard for ten or fifteen years to reach the Sgt's Mess and along comes this aircrew sprog with six or nine month's service and he's in with you !

You had one consolation, however - he might be dead next week.

Danny.

[Pontius Navigator]

Danny, I expect numbers were a factor too with large numbers of aircrew. Also I expect a certain amount of natural segregation with crew, sqn, aircrew staying in their own groups.

[ICM]

I'm aware of a newly-fledged NCO Observer arriving at Leeming not long after the new scheme was introduced in 1940 to find that the Station Commander "did not regard Observers and WOP/AGs as Sgts and therefore we lived in barracks, with bunk and room inspection daily." So not just opposition from longer-serving personnel - though the fact that Leeming was still being developed may also have affected matters.

[charliegolf]

just ask any of us "plastics".

I used to wrap my hurt and inner pain up and hide it away.

In my bank statement!:ok:

CG (DE Airman Aircrew, as it was then called.)

[ShotOne]

Unfortunately, ttn, many of them weren't alive long enough to cause resentment ..or otherwise

Obviously back then we had tens of thousands of pilot seats to fill. Not a problem that's likely to recur.

[Jayand]

The term plastics is of course still in force today with the NCA cadre.
I did find however that it was selectively used against those that were acting like 19 yr olds in the Mess, those that could act like a SNCO were ususally given the benefit of the doubt by those that had served there time.

[charliegolf]

Was the term 'green-shielder' ever updated? You'd have to be an old git to understand it nowadays. My mother told me...

CG

[charliegolf]

those that could act like a SNCO were ususally given the benefit of the doubt by those that had served there time.

I served my time iaw the JSPs or regs or whatever! 12 weeks is a long time!

CG

[Shack37]

Posted by TTN

You've told us that NCO pilots had no problem being accepted as equals by
their commissioned opposite numbers, but what about by other NCOs in ground trades? In Len Deighton's excellent and well-researched book Bomber there is mention of resentment among long-serving NCOs who
had worked their way up through the ranks seeing the Sergeants' Mess suddenly filled with 19 year old boys with brand new stripes on their arms. Did you experience any of this?


In later years this was also a cause for annoyance amongst ground crew. In IIRC, the late 1960´s, 3 year apprentices from Halton etc., were graduating as Cpl´s promoted automatically to Sgt. after a year in the real world. As 20 y/o´s they were joining units with long serving SNCO´s of many years experience.

[teeteringhead]

And for those who don't know (or are a little out of date) one can now join the RAF as a Direct Entry Air Traffic Controller - with the rank of Sgt!

Seems the logic went thusly:

1. You can be a Sgt (Aircrew) at 19 or 20.
2. You can be an Air Trafficker (commissioned) at 19 or 20.
3. Lets combine 1 & 2!! (cos we're short of Air Traffickers!)

[charliegolf]

Going back to the OP- wasn't having only officers dropping instant sunshine (and all the secret stuff attached to it) a factor too?

As one wag pointed out: if an airman did it- look out, but if an officer did it, well that's just high spirits innit!

CG

[Fareastdriver]

wasn't having only officers dropping instant sunshine (and all the secret stuff attached to it) a factor too?

Not really; no shortage of Sgt Signallers in the V Force in the early sixties.

[ian16th]

promoted automatically to Sgt. after a year in the real world.And I complained when they were promoted to Cpl/Tech after a year.:sad:

[The Old Fat One]

I did find however that it was selectively used against those that were acting like 19 yr olds in the Mess, those that could act like a SNCO were ususally given the benefit of the doubt by those that had served there time.

Actually it was the exact reverse. The knobbers that used the term were d1ckheads; most of the mess cadre were grown ups who knew better. When I was first promoted to Acting Sergeant I acted exactly like a 19 year old (think about it), albeit a 19 year old that had been well-trained to be a SNCO, on and off duty.

End of thread drift...if someone else wants that last word, crack on.

[Tinribs]

Readers might think NCO pilots disappeared shortly after the war but there were still some around in the early 60s.
At Acklington we had a WO instructor and very good he was to. we also had a Sergeant pilot in the training HQ who.s unhappy duty it was to sit with us on low level trips and report but that might have been because one of our number had been Court Martialled for low flying

[Basil]

I'd have been quite happy to have been a Sgt pilot.
Whether that would have made any difference to airline selection I've no idea.
I'd already been a TA REME craftsman (private).

Re young bloods respecting experience, I went to sea as a 19yo instant engineer officer having only been an apprentice fitter/turner for four years. Our fireman must have been through the war in the engine room. I wish I'd been a bit more respectful to him.


one of our number had been Court Martialled for low flying
Buggah! I must have led a charmed life.

[tqmatch]

Thanks people for the real replies, and even the "not this cr*p again" replies. I genuinely have not read a NCO vs Commissioned thread before now, so feel a little stoopid for asking!

I was, for 10years, an RAF Rigger - and whilst serving no one seemed to know the answer - even some of the more "down to Earth" grow bags I used to speak to did not know the answer - hell, some of 'em admitted to only holding a commission because without it they could not fly!

I must say though, the only credible answer I ever got, was from a friend who was posted to Liverpool CIO for a while, who said it was due to unsupervised discharging of weapons - Army pilots are considered "teeth" Arms, under the command of a battlefield commissioned officer - whereas RAF/RN pilots were employed to prosecute targets which they sometimes assigned to themselves.

[MPN11]

And for those who don't know (or are a little out of date) one can now join the RAF as a Direct Entry Air Traffic Controller - with the rank of Sgt!

Indeed! I was staffing that as the head of the relevant office waaaaay back around 1989!

Getting back to the base topic, one factor has been alluded to but slightly skimmed over. One needs an officer pyramid to feed the various leadership/staff jobs up that greasy pole all the way to CAS [or CEO Air, or whatever title it is nowadays].

I had mentioned before a study I conducted into the ratio of NCO/Officer controllers in ATC. Again, reading the pyramid from the top down and taking account of the number of 'executive' posts at all the rank levels, we determined/proved that our ratio of about 60% Officers and 40% NCO controllers was about right, if the Officers were ever going to be fit/able/experienced to fulfil the responsibilities of ranks above fg off. It started as an attempted cost-saving measure, but actually proved that we needed 60% officers for the pyramid to be able to function.

I suspect similar factors are in play in the RAF and RN on the pilot side. The Army has, as we know, a completely different slant on flying, with career paths and 'Regimental duties' creating a non-comparable environment.

[xray one]

To me the more important question is why the RAF insist on a very high standard of education (A levels or degree I understand). As someone who had 4 'O' levels and a CSE grade one in Design Studies I managed to spend 9 years flying fast jets. Yes the academics were a struggle, but if you're determined and have some sort of natural ability then you can succeed. I also had a spell as a QFI and being a Uni graduate made no difference what so ever.

[Slow Biker]

IIRC, in the late '60s at Wildenrath there was a cpl working in the med centre who sported wings and a decent set of ribbons.

[polecat2]

I recall a Flt Sgt in the Schools building at Halton in the early '60s wore pilot's wings and a DFC among other ribbons, and the WO I/c the Airmens Mess at Laarbruch in 1970 had an air gunner's half-wing along with a pathfinder badge and a chestful of ribbons.

[Tankertrashnav]

x ray - I only had O level maths too, and no sciences other than biology and still managed to pass my nav course, but I have to say I occasionally found the lack of a maths/science background a disavantage. Some chaps I knew went on to do the Spec N course, and to be honest I think I would have struggled with that.

[Danny42C]

MPN11 (your #40),

".........(or are a little out of date) one can now join the RAF as a Direct Entry Air Traffic Controller - with the rank of Sgt!........"

I'm 43 years out of date now, but I recall that around the mid-sixties we started getting in Direct Entry (Short Service) Commissioned young ladies and gentlemen into the ATC Branch. After the statutory four or five (?) month's hard labour at Henlow, and a further four at Shawbury (where they were introduced to the arcane mysteries of ATC by old gentlemen like myself), they were let loose on the RAF's twin-winged Lords of the Air (with, on the whole, satisfactory results).

We of the Old Brigade, who had "borne the burdens and the heat of the day" in the air and on the ground for the last quarter-century, might have been resentful of these Johnnies-come-lately who had been "handed on a plate" what had taken us so long to achieve. But, as most of us were just "marking-time" before retirement anyway, it didn't seem to matter and we mixed in well enough.

"The Old Order Changeth, Giving Place to New". It was their Air Force now.

* * *

Now your: ".....One needs an officer pyramid to feed the various leadership/staff jobs....."

True, but you also need the base of that pyramid to be kept up to strength ! In the fifties the young men of Britain, suspicious of the specious promises of a glowing future held out to them by the (then) Air Ministry, largely spurned them. Natural wastage was starting to crumble the base. What to do ?

Only one thing, really. Hang on to the people you've got on the bottom already. So, in '52, they introduced the "Limited Career Permanent Commission". Originally it was open only in the Air Traffic and Fighter Control Branches, but later in the year it was extended to GD (Pilot) as well (I think these last later morphed into "Branch" Officers, with a chance of Squadron Leader).

The deal was simple: We will keep you on till age 50 and then give you a pension. You will not get past Flight Lieutenant (however many Promotion Exams you may have passed). Take it or leave it ! It was not successful enough in its original form, so in '60 "selected" (in practice, all the) ones who had taken the bait in '50 were offered an extension to age 55 (but with the free option of PVR at age 50).

What could you lose ? I took the option to extend to 55, but PVR'd at 50.

Danny.

(with currently 65 year's seniority as Flight Lieutenant - shouldn't I get a gold watch, or a medal or something ?)

[chevvron]

Some of the best helicopter flights I've had were with AAC pilots, a Sgt Major in a Scout and a COH in a Gazelle.

[hunterboy]

I get the impression that many of the academic requirements are merely there as a filter to get the number of applicants down to a manageable number.
At the end of the day, they don't want the best pilots in the world in the seats, only applicants that can pass the selection and courses.

[Fareastdriver]

it was extended to GD (Pilot) as well (I think these last later morphed into "Branch" Officers, with a chance of Squadron Leader).

They had the own Branch Tie. A ladder with only two rungs at the bottom.

[Pontius Navigator]

Fed, the ladder tie was supplementary list IIRC.

With the B exam you also had 10-12 year fg off, shed loads of experience,no responsibility, and plenty of attitude. Remember Dinger Bell in Cyprus, around 1972, cheeses off when he got automatic promotion though I think sqn cdrs could get it differred for a year or more.

Happy days.

[Pontius Navigator]

X-Ray, 4 GCE or 5, filter indeed and more than you might think.

I remember an FE at Lindholme in 1963 going on about it.

Read the Daily Mirror - with 4 O-levels you could become a sgt aircrew.

Read the Daily Telegraph - with 5 O-levels you could become an officer.

In 1962 we had two airmen, one a call A/Sgt and the other a Sgt Sig, both retraining as navigator s and both passed out as Sgt Nav in 1963 but even then the writing was on the wall. Their postings were limited to the kipper fleet IIRC.

[MPN11]

As one of the "5 O-Level" Direct Entrants, I was immensely grateful for the RAF's desire to recruit and train young officers to become Danny42C's successors in ATC without demanding too many academic qualifications. I'm sure my 6th O-Level* was, however, the key to my subsequent modest career success :)

As a small digression, my various visits to OASC [first at Hornchurch, subsequently at Biggin] clearly eventually impressed the Secetion Board.
1. "Test in advance" for Permanent commission via Cranwell. Rejected [not our sort of chap?]
2. ATC Flying Scholarship. Thank you for my PPL :)
3. RN Aptitude testing before rest of selection process at Gosport. Commissioned as Officer Cadet, failed Flying Grading at BRNC Dartmouth.
4. Applied for Supplementary List commission as GD(G)ATC. Yesses .... success.

Two humorous moments I recall vividly:
The barman at the Candidates Mess at Biggin ... "Hello, Sir. Back again?" This did not enhance the mood of my fellow candidates within earshot!
The Selection Board, looking at an extremely fat file that really deserved to be in 2 parts ... "Good morning, Mr MPN11, I see you have been here before."

* #5 and #6 obtained after a year of 'further training' in whet the school called 'The General Sixth Form'.

Persistence paid off in both areas :D

[The Old Fat One]

To me the more important question is why the RAF insist on a very high standard of education (A levels or degree I understand).

Not just an RAF problem it seems

Most graduates 'in non-graduate jobs', says CIPD - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-33983048)

[Fluffy Bunny]

Proves the joke about "do you want fries with that?" is true!

[BEagle]

When I was a ULAS student pilot, one of our QFIs had somehow managed to join the RAF (as an officer), with just 4 'O' levels.

Even though 'O' levels really meant something back then, he wasn't the brightest tool in the box - and his bumbling attempts to teach us about the triangle of velocities one Thursday night were nothing short of hilarious!

[charliegolf]

one of our QFIs had somehow managed to join the RAF (as an officer), with just 4 'O' levels.

What was his flying history?

CG

[BEagle]

charliegolf, I think it was Victor bombers, then QFI-ing on Pigs, but am not sure.

[olympus]

An interesting thread. Thanks to those who took the trouble to provide sensible answers.

[Fareastdriver]

Some of us Colonials didn't have to bother with Biggin Hill; we were assessed by the recruiters we drank in the bar with. I was assessed in Salisbury, now Harare in March 1960. I signed the dotted line in the first week in April. The paper I signed rattled on about a Direct Commission for 12 years with an option at 5 years and 8 years. Apparently this commission was replaced by the Direct Entry Commission (12 years with only an 8 year option) on the April 1st so I wasn't actually on any legal engagement.

When I was severely unenthusiastic about serving as a co-pilot in the V force I brought this up. Two very senior officers told me to wind my neck in.

It got me on to helicopters, though. The best move in my life.

[Centaurus]

I graduated as a Sergeant Pilot in the RAAF in December 1952. On my OTU course (Mustangs and single seat Vampires) there were five NCO pilots and five commissioned Pilot Officers who had graduated about the same time as us sergeants at Point Cook after a four year degree and permanent commission. In other words career officers. All good blokes.
All were destined to go directly on operations during the Korean war. After successfully passing the Mustang part of the course I went on to the Vampires where later to my chagrin my air to air cine camera gunnery results were unsatisfactory so I got scrubbed.

All the fighter combat instructors (FCI) at the OTU had just returned from Korea after a 100 missions and were short service commissioned officers having been promoted from NCO rank after leaving Korea. Briefings on fighter tactics were held every day before flying. But one very rarely got to talk with individual FCI's during the day since all flying was in single seat fighters. What I remember however was at the end of each day the instructors would go back to the Officers Mess and have a few beers. I am sure that over the Officers Mess bar they would impart pearls of fighter wisdom to the Pilot Officer graduates as the evening wore on. At the same time, on the other side of the parade ground, we NCO pilots would retire to the Sergeants Mess and learn nothing by watching the old shell-back senior NCO's talk about their wartime ground staff experiences. As 20 year old NCO pilots we were seen as sprogs and not worth talking to.

This is where the NCO pilot system fell down in my view. There was immense value in being able to talk to our instructors after work over the days flying and real life experience war stories discussed over a friendly beer.

The recently graduated Pilot Officers from the RAAF College had that advantage because, after all, their instructors were in the same Officers Mess. I often think we NCO pilots missed out badly in this regard. Some years later the RAAF scrubbed the NCO pilot policy and everyone graduated as Pilot Officers.

Finally, I remember the occasion in the OCU crew rooms when one of the FCI's was a decorated former Spitfire pilot who was heavily involved in the European air battles. He held his coffee in his hand while he chatted casually to another FCI - this time a Pilot Officer who won a DFC in Korea. The discussion was on radar controlled AA guns used by the Germans and the tactics needed to minimise the chances of being shot down by these fearsome weapons.

As a 20 year old sergeant with a mere 230 flying hours in my log book, I was very keen to listen in to their conversation and maybe learn something to save my own skin if I went to Korea. But because of the difference in rank I was too shy to butt in to join the two men. I tried to pick up their conversation within ear shot without being obvious. That didn't work so I found myself drifting to another part of the briefing room to read a survival pamphlet. As it turned out I never got to Korea so I missed nothing.

[Pontius Navigator]

Centaurus, even in the 60s it was changing. The biggest change was perhaps wives . . .

Then the age gap with old men, 26 or so, not wishing to shoot lines with sprogs, and your really old bemedalled 40-45 year olds particularly reticent. Very occasionally a gem was dropped:

"My only mission was the day after the dams raid. The IntO said there would be no flak." His name was in the Bomber Command diaries.

"The FOB said whenever nothing else was planned we should fly strikes down the Loire Valley. I was asked after the French complained if I had check the Master FOB." He was a Spitfire sqn cdr post war and remained a sqn ldr for next 20 years.

[chinook240]

Back to the present era, from my limited experience I don't believe many foreign airforces use non-commissioned pilots. Even the U.S. Army uses C(omissioned)WO. Is the AAC not almost unique amongst modern airforces?

[AQAfive]

A question for you ex V bombers, apart from the Valiant, were there any AEOps on the crew? I knew they were on the Valiants because my old EW instructor at Topcliffe was one, but I was under the impression that was after they changed over to the tanking role. I thought that any involvement with nuclear weapons meant all officer aircrew, but, having just read 'Valiant Boys' by Tony Blackman, it is quite clear AEOps were on some crews holding QRA from the beginning.

[Rotate too late]

Is the AAC unique, I think it is at the moment, until there are no more SNCO's coming through the system and it goes the way of the other two services....but it isn't policy...promise.

[Pontius Navigator]

AQA, I believe that was true of Valiants, certainly met one ex-Sig who had been in 18 but I don't think they were bombers. Siggies proceeded AEOps and many then converted. We had an ex-truckie flt lt Sig on the Vulcan ICY but he withdrew as there was too much electrics as well as radio and ECM.

[ian16th]

AQA

We definitely had SNCO WOP's on 214, while we were doing the Tanking Trials, at this time we were still in the command strength as a 'bomber' squadron and we even did a Sunspot at Luqa in Sept/Oct 59.

We also had one Flt Sgt Navigator.

[smujsmith]

Just come across this thread and, if it's OK would make a couple of comments from the preceding posts. Firstly, I can certainly back up the notion of inter techie ill will regarding changes to promotion patterns. The Techies referred to previously, who passed out of training as Cpls, with fast promotion to Sgt, were Technician apprentices, originally designed as systems diagnosticians for TSR2. The whole plan would put them in charge of a team of single trade techies, who would rely on them to diagnose and delegate the work required, they had to be NCOs for that role. They did a 3 year apprentice course covering 3 trades I believe. I joined as a Craft Apprentice and completed a 2 year course as an Airframe Fitter, passing out as a Jnr Tech, with time promotion to Cpl after 3 years. On arrival at Colerne (C130 Major servicing) there was quite a bit of personal vitriol placed my way by 30 year old SAC Airframe mechanics, why I could never understand, I joined the system, I didn't invent it. Moving on, I was fortunate to serve most of my last years in service as a Chf Tech Aircraft Ground Engineer (AGE) on the C130. Now, a more welcoming bunch of people you could never wish to work with. From Gp Capt Pilot to newly qualified Loadmasters. Generally the AGE on the Herk was treated as part of the crew, and respected for what he brought to the table, and perhaps that's where the rank becomes fairly irrelevant. Perhaps Chf Tech was a bit of an unknown in their rank structure. I suspect that in many multi rank crew fleets it is competence, not rank status, that gets the job done, and the camaraderie to feel part of it all is its own reward. As a few have said already, I always believed that the all commissioned crew was the result of the RAF holding the National Nuclear deterrent role, prior to Polaris, several books have disabused me of that thinking so perhaps it is simply cheaper to recruit pilots to the commissioned ranks only. Like the OP, not sure I've seen this subject raised before so apologies if I've repeated old opinion, an interesting thread though, none of us are too old to learn!

Smudge :ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

Smudge, and V-Force chiefs too. Crews had their favourite chiefs for rangers.

[Jayand]

"there was quite a bit of personal vitriol placed my way by 30 year old SAC Airframe mechanics, why I could never understand"
Smuj, it has always been so, any job that allows you to circumvent the usually longer path to promotion ahead of your peers is always going to be met with some jealousy and resentmet, it's human nature.

The Appo's were always looked down upon by the technicians who had started and served there time as mechs, given the chance I'm sure a lot of the mechs would have taken the appo route, however given the way they were treated for three years at Halton I'm not so sure.

[goudie]

V-Force chiefs tooIn my experience V-Bomber crew chiefs were the backbone of the Sqdn servicing crew. When 617 re-formed with Vulcans the crew chiefs were often working 18 hrs a day. The a/c could not be moved without the c/c present or IIRC even ground power could not be applied. And, of course, they were present whenever the a/c was crewed up to fly.

Apologies for thread drift.

[50+Ray]

Fully agree about the sixth man on Rangers! Hamish(Where are you now?), Steve, Dick, Andy, and all the splendid bunch on 44(R) were very welcome on my jet.
Ray

[parabellum]

Is the AAC not almost unique amongst modern airforces?

May have changed now but when I was in BAOR the Luftwaffe had NCO pilots flying F104 Starfighters.

[Wensleydale]

"May have changed now but when I was in BAOR the Luftwaffe had NCO pilots flying F104 Starfighters."

Obviously they were expendable.

[Army Mover]

I thought the Navy also had NCO pilots; there was certainly a Royal Marine Warrant Officer pilot flying on 230 when I was at Gutersloh in the early 80's.

[ShyTorque]

I thought the Navy also had NCO pilots; there was certainly a Royal Marine Warrant Officer pilot flying on 230 when I was at Gutersloh in the early 80's.

I served on 230 Sqn in the early 80s and I can't recall who that could have been. :confused:

Please remind me who it was.

[Army Mover]

I served on 230 Sqn in the early 80s and I can't recall who that could have been. :confused:

Please remind me who it was.

I don't recall his name - sorry. I do remember it was towards the end of my tour there, so would have been 83/84; hope that helps.

Late addition - in trying to track this guy down, I've discovered a post on here from 2004 that said that the RM no longer had NCO pilots - officers only.

[Tankertrashnav]

The army had the right idea in the very early days. The NCO sat in the front and drove it, the officer sat in the back and did the clever stuff.

All been downhill since then ;)

[ShyTorque]

It all went downhill after they were given more than one horsepower each :p

[Fareastdriver]

I believe that the reason that ejector seats were not fitted or the V Bombers modified for the rear crew was that it was cheaper to train two new navigators and an AEO.

As a lowly co-pilot who had to sit in the corner until his chain was rattled if the crap really hit the fan I was first out.

[Fluffy Bunny]

TTN it's been going downhill since somebody gave an officer a map!

[goudie]

running Royal Navy gliding As did WO Andy Gough, who ran the Gliding school at RAF Bicester.
He taught me to glide. He was tragically killed whilst flying a display in a Blanik

[Danny42C]

Fluffy Bunny,

When I was driving, nobody in my back seat was allowed a map !

(And I'm still here).

D.

[rolling20]

In Len Deighton's excellent and well-researched book Bomber there is mention of resentment among long-serving NCOs who had worked their way up through the ranks seeing the Sergeants' Mess suddenly filled with 19 year old boys with brand new stripes on their arms. . Tanker are you confusing Deightons Bomber,(which is a work of fiction) with Max Hastings Bomber Command,which is not. As I believe the story you are referring to comes from the latter sir.

[charliegolf]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShyTorque View Post
I served on 230 Sqn in the early 80s and I can't recall who that could have been.

Please remind me who it was.
I don't recall his name - sorry. I do remember it was towards the end of my tour there, so would have been 83/84; hope that helps.

Late addition - in trying to track this guy down, I've discovered a post on here from 2004 that said that the RM no longer had NCO pilots - officers only.


I can't place a bootie at that time either, but Dave Scotting was a WO AAC pilot at the time. He was only a WO a few months before the long-planned commissioning took place and he became Captain Scotting. I believe the brown jobs call it 'attending a face-board'. I think that's a nose-picking, eating peas off yer knife, reading the Sun check.

CG

[Union Jack]

I believe Royal Navy gave up Senior Rating pilots long time ago - Jenkins

I cannot confirm the earliest date from which rating pilots flew as Petty Officer Pilots - so over to Kew? However, of the fifty-five Fleet Air Arm pilots who flew at least one recognised operational sortie during the Battle of Britain, three were Petty Officer Pilots. In 1948, rating pilots in the Royal Navy were commissioned if otherwise qualified, reverted to their source branch, or left the Service, and the rating of Petty Officer Pilot ceased to exist.

Here's the obituary of a particularly interesting and distinguished former Petty Officer Pilot:

Lieutenant-Commander Bill Filer - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/obituaries/military-obituaries/naval-obituaries/8457100/Lieutenant-Commander-Bill-Filer.html)

and, before anyone queries the badge worn in the second photograph, it's apparently a Royal Canadian Navy Clearance Diving Officer's badge, presented by the RCN - probably being worn unofficially, but who would deny someone with his record.:ok:

Incidentally, I believe that a number of WRNS ratings were enrolled as Observers - in early 1918!:ooh:

Jack

[Xtiff]

To move the discussion sideways for a moment, the ranking system (anomalies) also applied in the RN as well as the RAF.

50 years ago I was drafted to RNAS Sembawang, to provide second level support to the Helicopter squadrons in Borneo.

I was an Electrical Artiificer, full Navy apprenticeship, and as such was ranked as a Chief Petty Officer at age 23.

Sembawang at the time was run by 3rd Commando Brigade with a Marine Colonel as CO.

The Marines Sergeants Mess was run on Army lines as was the custom, so you can imagine the consternation among the grizzled Sergeants who lived in when they realized that I was the senior member of the mess, and by default could control when the bar opened and closed.

Free beer for six weeks until my wife arrived.

[Danny42C]

Jack,

Google "Jackie Moggridge". Pick "jackie moggridge wiki"

select:

war service of Jackie Moggridge, 1939-1945 - South African Military ... (http://www.google.co.uk/url?url=http://samilitaryhistory.org/vol126sb.html&rct=j&frm=1&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ved=0CCEQFjACahUKEwiEv5_B7rrHAhVIPRoKHTLkDcc&usg=AFQjCNH1BR6DI6MiiABDj98FcRhXaGnjrw)

Worth a look !

Danny.

[Pontius Navigator]

Rolling 20, while Deighton' s work was fiction it should perhaps be assigned to the faction genre rather than pure fiction. Alf Price, a budding historical author and authority was one of Deighton' s researchers.

The format, stepping the story forward from both sides, is one that Price has used in much of his later works. As a work of fiction it probably is more factual than fictional.

[rolling20]

Pontius, that aside (and I have read some of Price's work) I think Tanker is referring to a 2 Group story of young Sergeants at first being shunned by the 'old sweats" and then being showed compassion after the horrendous losses they suffered on Blenheims. One part of Bomber I have always had a problem with ( and I cannot remember the exact detail, having read it some time ago),was when the hero? returns to the squadron some months after evading and is put on ops that night and is subsequently lost. That was not a scenario that would have existed at the time for various reasons.

[Pontius Navigator]

Rolling, agree as I believe MI 9 found them more valuable as lecturers than mere aircrew. I think that rule was definitely in force for escapees lest the Gestapo got them.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

WO Andy Gough, who ran the Gliding school at RAF Bicester.
He taught me to glide. He was tragically killed whilst flying a display in a Blanik
Me also, whilst I was a navigator on Canberras. Legand of a man and fine aviator. Rip Andy....I didn't know.

[Union Jack]

Worth a look!

Worth a look indeed, Danny, and I have read and thoroughly enjoyed the links you kindly provided so thank you very much for the steer, not least for the South African connection.

What a girl, and what an amazing flying career, and she will, incidentally, almost certainly have known Rita, the ATA pilot I referred to in a PM, who knew some of the same ATA female pilots. I'm also still marvelling that Jackie apparently flew her first solo in a twin-engined DH Rapide!:ok:

All the best

Jack

[MOSTAFA]

Shy Torque and Army Mover that would probably have been Derek P-----D But he did commission in or near after post.

[rolling20]

Pontius,that is correct sir. I believe earlier in the war that wasn't always the case though.

[cliver029]

.....One of a group of the best in the RAFGSA at that time others including Pete Dawson (Taught me to glide and soar properly), T*g W****n, Paddy Hogg. none of them creamies I suspect

Sorry, thread drift off!

C

[Tankertrashnav]

If I may settle the matter of which book. As it happens I havent read Max Hastings' book, excellent as I am sure it is, but I have probably read Bomber at least half a dozen times and can assure you Len Deighton makes reference to resentment towards sergeant aircrew from older SNCOs. As P-N has said, Deighton researched the book very thoroughly, so I have no doubt he got the story from a similar source to that used by Hastings.

[lederhosen]

I also have very positive memories of Andy Gough and was active at Bicester when he died. I understood he actually turned down a commission. He was a smart man and very much the boss. By not being in the officer career structure he was probably more powerful, certainly he had more freedom to do what he wanted. This benefited a lot of people myself included. Group captains and higher officers did what he said when they were on his turf.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN so I have no doubt he got the story from a similar source to that used by Hastings

Indeed, it is apparent that their is a source 'circuit'. As you get noticed as a source so you get further requests and so on. A danger is if there are too few then details may become distorted or the view too narrow. An obvious case is Aunty using one 'expert' often well outside his expertise.

[Royalistflyer]

I remember when I was serving early on we had one pilot (whose name escapes me although I can see him clearly) who thought he was the last Warrant Officer pilot to be "forced" to take a commission. He had flown Lancasters and been on Maritime surveillance after the war. He was pretty upset at the initial pay drop. One of our best pilots though.

On another note, wasn't there a sleeve badge - a copper-bronze eagle with a crown above (quite small) that was worn by the Commissioned Warrant Officers?

[Tankertrashnav]

An obvious case is Aunty using one 'expert' often well outside his expertise.

No names, no pack drill, eh P-N? ;)

[goudie]

Commissioned Warrant Officers?

Never came across one during my service.

I know they exist in some services but to me, the title is confusing.

[Union Jack]

Never came across one during my service.

Probably because the rank at issue is Chief Warrant Officer, vide
Warrant Officers of the US Military (http://www.militaryranks.us/us-military-warrant-officer.htm) :=

Jack

[Royalistflyer]

My understanding is that Warrant Officer pilots were (sometimes) offered commissions and proceeded through commissioned ranks. I believe that at the end of the war if they wanted to stay in, they reverted.

[chinook240]

Warrant Officer
WARRANT OFFICER
Warrant Officers are the technical experts in the Army. They have specific technical or tactical specialties (e.g., helicopter pilots), and manage and maintain many of the Army’s combat systems, vehicles and networks. Once they reach the rank of Chief Warrant Officer Two (CW2), the President of the United States gives them the same status as a Commissioned Officer.

CHIEF WARRANT OFFICER 2
CHIEF WARRANT OFFICER 2 (CW2)
Chief Warrant Officers become commissioned officers as provided by the President of the United States. CW2s are intermediate level technical and tactical experts who perform increased duties and responsibilities at the detachment through battalion levels.

Source http://www.army.mil/symbols/warrantdescription.html

[Royalistflyer]

I asked about a sleeve badge - and eagle and a crown. So we are NOT talking about America.

[Danny42C]

From Wiki,

Their rank insignia was now a freework pin of crossed quill pens on either side of the freework "U.S." pins worn on the standing collar of the M1909 tunic. They were not permitted the brown mohair cuff braid band of an Army officer but were authorized a silver-and-black braid hatcord for wear with the M1911 Campaign Hat and the officer's "G.I. Eagle" on the M1902 peaked cap.
On 9 July 1918, Congress established the rank and grade of warrant officer


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/02/FlightOfficerWW2.jpg/220px-FlightOfficerWW2.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FlightOfficerWW2.jpg)

Army Air Forces flight officer rank insignia of World War II.

D.

[Wrathmonk]

Once they reach the rank of Chief Warrant Officer Two (CW2), the President of the United States gives them the same status as a Commissioned Officer.

So does that mean that a British Army / RAF / RN WO/WO2 (or equivalent) has to salute a US CW2?:E

And if they were visiting a UK military establishment which Mess would they (the CW2) be hosted by/stay in?:E

And, yes, I have read the lengthy, funny, and very 'informative' threads on these subjects over on the Army site but just want to see the light blue viewpoint.

[Fareastdriver]

They would prefer not to stay in an Officers Mess. They wouldn't be able to shout at the sergeants.

[MPN11]

The subject of US WO/CWO was beaten into submission on ARRSE some years ago, contributed to vigorously by a WO who went strangely silent after a while at Fort Rucker. Sadly missed on that Forum ... he was desperately funny/inept.

Any idea of BritMil fully grasping the US CWO concept is challenging, although chinook240 quotes accurately and usefully. I had a friend who went from being a regular Lt Col to CWO in the National Guard. You have to know them to understand it.

It's a bit like RAF Specialist Aircrew, without the full Queen's Commission. They're there for their special skills, but without the broad 'command' responsibilities and career progression.

"I only want to fly aircraft, stuff the rest of the bulls***." Does that have any RAF resonance?

[Pontius Navigator]

A CWO ferried a Bronco to Europe. He stayed in the OM at Lossie. His right was questioned and accepted.

[MPN11]

Absolutely, PN.

The differences are challenging, but Lossie was absolutely RIGHT. The rank badges are a clue.

[Bill Macgillivray]

Surely if you are commissioned in the Royal Air Force, spec. aircrew or otherwise, you still hold a full Queen's commission. As I remember, spec. aircrew were merely restricted in the rank that they could gain, Squadron Leader. Still a fully commissioned officer!

[deptrai]

about the US:

"The duties Marine warrant officers typically fulfill are those that would normally call for the authority of a (unrestricted line) commissioned officer, however, require an additional level of technical proficiency and practical experience that a commissioned officer would not have had the opportunity to achieve."

and
"Though in theory warrant officers are specialists, in contrast to commissioned officers who are generalists, warrant Officers may occupy positions within the military that are normally held by more senior commissioned officers, especially in the Navy where chief warrant officers often fill lieutenant and lieutenant commander billets."

About the salute question:E...treating guests respectfully is never a bad idea :) and there are various subtleties...eg the (US) sergeant major of the army salutes all commissioned officers, and at the same time, according to the department of the army precedence list, takes (ceremonial) precedence before lieutenant generals. My point being, precedence is derived from his billet here, not rank. He'll still keep saluting every officer, although it's probably rare that he'll report to them. If someone would chose to salute a US CW who has a commission from the US president, while serving in a job that is also done by unrestricted line officers, I can't see how that would be terribly wrong. At the same time, if someone choses not to salute, they probably won't get court-martialed...

it's a pleasure to read all the previous discussions, like http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/232962-saluting-us-warrant-officers-information.html

[MPN11]

Ah, our old friend "Chief Two" [and other similar names he used! :D

The guy had stamina ... he never stopped beating the "Salute me, I'm a CWO" drum!

[Tankertrashnav]

Royalistflyer I've got a few publications on RAF insignia and haven't been able to find the badge you describe worn as a sleeve badge. What you describe is the badge worn on the officers' field service cap (sidecap) but in gilt, not bronze, so I am at a loss. In any case I think we have established that there was never such a rank as "commissioned warrant officer" in the RAF (as opposed to warrant officers who had been commissioned, of whom there were lots!)

Bill, you are quite correct. I held a supplementary list as opposed to a general list commission - I think thats what MPN 11 is alluding to, but as far as I was concerned it was still a "full" queen's commission.

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN with all powers associated with that rank and seniority. Of course your V-Force captains were frequently more junior and proper Cranditz officers got the 'real' sqn duties (until they cocked up).

Remember one sqn plans officer who was shuffled off and replaced by an old, hairy ex-wg air plans officer. (Ken White,ex Cottesmore, ex 50)

[Wensleydale]

There were two Sergeants' messes at RAF Waddington during the war which helped to keep the two factions separate .....the original Sgts' Mess was in the building that now houses the police headquarters as you enter on the left past the guardroom...the large influx of aircrew sergeants was housed in a larger block known as the Aircrew Sgts' Mess which eventually became the Sgts' Mess after the war (the non-aircrew mess becoming the Corporals' Club). The Aircrew Sgts' Mess was replaced by a new mess building a few years ago - the Aircrew Mess is now known as Sentry Block.

[teeteringhead]

One recalls when the first direct entry AQM crewmen arrived at the secret Hampshire Helicopter Base in the early 70s (?) to join the aged M Sigs, M Engs etc.

Known as the "Quartermaster Experiment" (geddit? ;)) they were mostly scarce-bearded youths. Allegedly, one of their number could not be served at the bar in the Sgts' Mess as he was not yet 18. :eek:

I can't confirm that one, but there WAS definitely a sign at the bar:

"Aircrew Acting Sergeants only served if Accompanied by an Adult" :ok:

[charliegolf]

"Aircrew Acting Sergeants only served if Accompanied by an Adult"

Crumbs! The poor buggahs must have died of thirst at Odiham.:E

CG

[Tankertrashnav]

Allegedly, one of their number could not be served at the bar in the Sgts' Mess as he was not yet 18.

Not just sergeants. I was commissioned two weeks before my 18th birthday. After Christmas leave I arrived at Catterick two days before I turned 18. I recall I had a couple of (illegal) halves of bitter in the mess bar, but didnt push my luck beyond that!

[smujsmith]

Some of the previous posts re the U.S. CWO rank, have once more enlightened my feeble brain, and a big thanks for all who posted and explained the rank. As a SNCO (RAF) I was posted to Machrihanish in the early 80s to run the Visiting Aircraft Serving Section (VASS). On one occasion during the 2 year 6 month tour we were informed of a UC12B arriving with a "bigwig" on board. White overalls for the marshallers and as we had both USN Seals and a rather large USN Aviation Weapon Facility on the unit, a reception committee of our own Staish (A Wing Commander) and the OCs of both US units lodging on Machrihanish. The chap who stepped off the UC12B was "getting on a bit" but was saluted by all three of the Stations senior officers, he duly returned their salute. I was later informed by one of the SEALS that he was the Chief Warrant Officer for the European theatre. Having read the previous posts, I'm no longer in awe of a Warrant Officer that command both the respect of senior officers, and, his own personal aircraft and crew. Thanks again all. You learn something new every day, if you follow PPRUNE!

Smudge :ok:

[Danny42C]

Smudge,

Recalls the famous instruction from a Cranwell Drill Sgt-Major (?) to the Cadets (no, I never went there):

"You call me Sir, and I call you Sir - the difference is: You will mean it !"

I'm not quite sure about the blue-on-gold bar I posted (#106, Wiki says "Army Air Forces in WWII", [there was no U.S.(Army) Air Force till '47, before that it was the U.S. Army Air Corps] I seem to remember them teaching me about a Commissioned Warrant Officer's 2nd Lieut's single gold bar with a thin black bar across. Nothing about any blue colour. Plenty of PPRuNers across the pond can put us right on that.

Out there we were "Aviation Cadets" (and RAF LACS under the skin, either way dogsbodies). As such, we were "neither flesh, fowl nor good red herring" - but a Master Sergeant would call you "Mister" (before he kicked you around). Complicated, innit ? Truly YLSNED.

Danny.

[Royalistflyer]

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/520517669410278809/ I found a picture of the eagle and crown badge on a WW II Flight Lieutenant's uniform - the badge is immediately above the rank stripes. But the system here refuses to accept a URL for pinterest where I have put the picture. The person who told me this insignia was used by Warrant Officers who had been given a SSC for the duration was the Flight Lieutenant son of a Wing Commander who still wore it on his uniform into the 1960s

[Tankertrashnav]

Very interesting photo, Royalistflier. The more I look at it the more I think that it is an RAAF uniform, not RAF - the shade of blue looks wrong for RAF. In addition to the mysterious eagle and crown, the chap appears to be wearing WW2 overseas service chevrons. I may be wrong but I dont think these were ever worn by RAF officers, or even if they were worn by RAF ORs, but I know they were worn by RAAF ORs at least.

Any Oz Mates help? I'm confused here :confused:

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, with the increasing numbers of reenactors, especially WW2, it is possible that glamed up uniforms are appearing. I have seen a WO and pilot wings (possible I know), a flt lt in KD BJ and blue shirt, etc etc.

On that pic, not the colour change and crease line at the bottom of the cuff; it appears to have been lengthened.

On bodger uniforms I have seen a 4 button No 1 cut down to make the 3 button one. Mind you, as the MRAF of the RAF I guess KG VI could get away with it.

Any one remember a trial pattern No 1 from late 50s early 60s, possibly Burton's, the back had seams like the No 5 sweeping up to the shoulders?

[Danny42C]

Pontius Navigator,

Your #125: "On bodger uniforms I have seen a 4 button No 1 cut down to make the 3 button one....."

Everybody did it at the time. Why throw a perfectly good No.1 SD away, when all you needed to do was to cut the bottom button off, shrug the buckle down half an inch to cover the buttonhole, and voilà - a new pattern jacket ! The perfectionists had the surplus buttonhole "invisibly" mended, but they were few in number.

"Exchange and Mart" had at that time a lot of new, surplus W.O. No.1s on sale at a knockdown price. Cheapskates (look no further) bought one, cut off the "Two Dogs Fighting", and bottom button as before, Memsahib sewed on your braid (they could sew in those days, and use an iron), and "Bob's your Uncle"- a good working uniform.

Your: "Any one remember a trial pattern No 1.......?" Can I ever forget ! The whole sad story :{ is on my Post (p.165/#3288) on "...Pilot's Brevet..."). If KGVI dodged the column, then he was a damn' hypocrite in my book !

Danny.

[Tankertrashnav]

Re Burtons - when we were at OCTU and ordering our uniforms from Gieves, Moss Bros, Alkit, etc, one of our number told us he was getting his from Burtons. Of course this brought forth a lot of snobby comments, but he responded by telling us that in civvy life he had been working for Burtons up North somewhere. They had a contract where they received half finished uniforms from Moss Bros all ready to be sewn together, rather in the way that modern British cars are merely assembled here. They even sewed the Moss Bros label in!

My wedding photos show me in a Burtons No 1 which was every bit as good as its Gieves predecessor, but I dont think it was one of the fancy ones you describe.

[Danny42C]

TTN,

Your: "My wedding photos show me in a Burtons No 1 ..." So do ours !

Monty's was fine so long as you were a stock size (which fortunately I was - and still am !)

In '50-'51, they would do you a barathea battledress for £12/15/0, a No.1 jacket and slacks for £13/15/0 and a Crombie (yes !) Greatcoat for £15/15/0.
(multiply by 32 for today's money).

Those who bought the gold-lace-wings jobs never wore them - you would have been the object of universal derision. :(

Danny.

[kaitakbowler]

Thread drift, sorry. No 1's, Ah Wah Lam, Kai Tak and Sek Kong, good enough for the CAS, Sir MB. Made my first mess kit and forage cap from the same bolt of cloth as Sir M's No1.

PM

[Pontius Navigator]

Danny, thank you.

TTN, indeed. Now I think someone unlocked the 'RE Gieves Bros Kit :) label and found Monty' s label underneath.

[Chugalug2]

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/19/15/86/1915868852e6878908c6918805061874.jpg

RF, simply pasted the "copy image location" into the PPRuNe image posting link for you. Seems to work OK.

BTW Danny,
there was no U.S.(Army) Air Force till '47, before that it was the U.S. Army Air Corpsbeing a right clever clogs, I think you might be confusing the USAF (est 1947) with the USAAF (est 1941). My authority is as ever Wiki:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Army_Air_Forces

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Air_Force

[Danny42C]

Chugalug,

I have to come out with my pedantic pants down again ! Why do I never learn ? It was the same with my brief sojourn as an historian, as you may remember.

Thanks for the links - but I don't have to read them - I'm sure you're right!

Danny. :*

[Tankertrashnav]

The more I look at that picture the more I think it's a complete lash-up, and I think P-N has got it - some re-enactor's kit.

[Danny42C]

Royalistflyer,


Your: "https://www.pinterest.com/pin/520517669410278809/ (https://www.pinterest.com/pin/520517669410278809/) I found a picture of the eagle and crown badge on a WW II Flight Lieutenant's uniform - the badge is immediately above the rank stripes".

I recall seeing exactly this long ago on this Thread, it was an early group pic of a squadron in which was a RAAF Flt Lt with an indistinct something just above the braid. One suggestion was a kangaroo, but it was later identified as an eagle'ncrown, same thing as you wore on your Cap FS. I have never seen the chevrons above on an officer's uniform, and have absolutely no idea what they might be.

Rooting about on Google turned up this (Wiki):

"...In 1947 *, the temperate officers' services dress jacket was altered. The lower side pockets were removed and the single slit was replaced by two hacking jacket style slits. The lower button was moved up to a position behind the belt and silk embroidery flying badges were replaced with ones in bullion embroidery. These changes were unpopular ** and in 1951, with the exception of the lower button move, the former uniform style was re-adopted.[1] ***"

Note *: Only in '51 was there any attempt to enforce this; IIRC there were two A.M.Os on the subject in that year, followed by the climb-down in a third.

Note **: "met with universial execration" might be nearer the mark.

Note ***: [1] has full pictures of the loathsome thing. It shows the gold wire "N" wing (shades of a misguided nav on 110 Sqdn. in India'43 (my Post p.133 #2649 on "Pilot's Brevet"). I had an inch-long gold braid "wound stripe" for my jacket sleeve, but we don't need to go into that now, and in any case I didn't wear it.

Danny.

[Tankertrashnav]

Danny has mentioned his wound stripe, which I'm sure many have never heard of. I've heard of them, but in 35 years of dealing in militaria I've never actually seen one. Here's a link to a discussion about them on another site.

RAF Wound Stripe (http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?2651-RAF-Wound-Stripe)

As to the chevrons in the picture, as I mentioned above these appear to be overseas service stripes which were authorised in 1944, retrospectively I think. Seen plenty of these, but not on an RAF officer's uniform.

[Pathfinder Museum]

Here's a picture of our RAAF uniform sleeve. We also have an RAF battledress tunic with 2 wound stripes.

http://i1025.photobucket.com/albums/y319/PathfinderMuseum/Aussie-2_zps81quxhea.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

I raised the issue of that No1 style as a nav, complete with gold wing, had one at IIRC Hullavington circa 1962. Only saw if once, briefly, in the mess and asked one of the old hairy instructors (around 28 I guess).

[Pontius Navigator]

TTN, IIRC the RAAF uniform was a very dark blue and very different from RAF barathea.

Ps

PM the cloth above shows a different weave from Barathea.

[Fareastdriver]

That's because the sun shines in Oz.

[binbrook]

It was said that the dreadful 'Bandmaster' No 1 went out and pockets came back because the CAS (Tedder) found himself with nowhere to keep his pipe.

[Royalistflyer]

Thanks Pathfinder, Now back to my original question - That's what I saw on my RAF friend's father's uniform, which he identified as meaning that his father had been a WW II Warrant Officer offered a SSC for the duration. Was he wrong? Since he was an RAF officer it seems unlikely that he'd get that story wrong. AFAIK that picture is not normal RAAF either - could both services have at that time had the same reason for having it. I imagine it would have been pretty rare anyway.

[Royalistflyer]

www.pinterest.com/pin/520517669410300835/ The middle officer seems to be wearing the badge - he is RAAF.

[MPN11]

Link edited >>>> https://www.pinterest.com/pin/520517669410300835/

Different Wings, buttons [it seems] and shade of uniform too.

[Union Jack]

And the officer on the right of the picture looks like Group Captain Leonard Cheshire VC DSO** DFC, so possibly following an investiture.:ok:

Jack

[MPN11]

... And both smoking cigarettes :D

[Danny42C]

TTN (your #135),

Got no joy with your link, so have registered with RAF Commands Forum and asked them about Wound Stripes in WWII, we'll see what they say.

From my P.146/#2920 ("Pilot's Brevet"):

"We became entitled to a "Wound Stripe" apiece. This daft and short-lived thing may have been peculiar to India. I never heard of it after I came back. The idea was similar to the American "Purple Heart", at which we poked much fun (it was said that you could get it for being nicked by the camp barber!) But it was entered on our records, and I seem to remember that I had an inch-long gold lace stripe to sew on my khaki tunic sleeve. As we never wore tunics (only bush jackets or shirts), it didn't seem worth bothering with".

Danny.

[Danny42C]

MPN11 and Union Jack,

Sqn Ldr in the middle is RAAF (how we envied them their black non-polish buttons !) His dark royal blue doesn't show as differently on b/w photos as in real life.

G/Capt on right is certainly Leonard Cheshire.

G/Capt on left is "Half-dressed !" - button undone. :=

Danny.

[Exnomad]

My brother, now deceased was one of the last serviving NCO pilots ended up as QFI master pilot.
Actually turned up as instructor when they were trying unsuccessfully to teach me to fly Oxfords in 1952 at Dalcross, Did not try and teach me.

[L-H]

Errm, is the Gp Capt on the left not the Percy Pickard of "Target for Tonight" and Operation Jericho? It's his height and distinct nose that got me thinking.

What do the experts think?

[Pontius Navigator]

L-H, picture here
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Percy_Charles_Pickard#/media/File:Royal_Air_Force_Bomber_Command,_1942-1945._HU60540.jpg and herehttp://www.chrishobbs.com/pickardcharles.htm

[Marbles]

Squadron Leader William Blessing, DSO, DFC, RAAF. The photo is in the IWM archive. Link as follows:
ROYAL AIR FORCE 1939-1945 BOMBER COMMAND (CH 10706) (http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205218701)

Occasion, an investiture at Buckingham Palace 28 July 1943. Blessing died 7 July 1944, aged 31, over France. He was the oldest of the three: Pickard and Cheshire were both still in their twenties.

Citations for his DSO and DFC:
RAAFDB.COM - SQNLDR*BLESSING,*WILLIAM WALTER (http://www.raafdb.com/view_casualty.asp?id=10004)

[taxydual]

Royalistflier / TTN

Re the sleeve badge. Does this fit the bill?

Portrait of Prince Albert in full Royal Air Force uniform, just after... News Photo | Getty Images (http://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/portrait-of-prince-albert-in-full-royal-air-force-uniform-news-photo/520827259)

[Tankertrashnav]

taxydual - well that proves if you own decent reference books, you should read them carefully, and not skim them, which I did initially. I now find in the section on rank insignia, 1918, a description of the braid with the following "Above the braid, a crowned metal eagle was worn. These were supplied in pairs, the eagle always flying to the rear" In my defence this is in the section for 1918, when the RAF was still using army ranks and there is no mention of cuff eagles in later sections, so I have no idea of when they went out of use in the RAF. It's obvious though that they were used in the RAAF in WW2 as shown by the picture of Sqn Ldr Blessing above.

Sorry the link didn't work for you Danny, it's just a discussion about these wound badges on another forum, and confirms what you've told us. Wound stripes were commonplace in WW1, when they took the form of a metal plate fixed with two lugs and a split pin. I think their reintroduction in WW2 was a bit of an afterthought - certainly they don't seem to have been widely worn.

[Wander00]

PN - that picture would make a brilliant Capcom photo

[Exnomad]

My late brother, was NCO pilot with much seniority , therefore top of queue for married quarters etc, change to pilot officer would lose that, pay actually less. He became Master Pilot and QFI until leaving RAF after 22 years, became civilian freighter pilot, then Air Traffic controller.
When working in East Anglia, plot showed faint, slow moving object, assumed flock of birds, turned out to be Miles Gemini, mainly wooden aircraft into strong headwind. Hint to Russians on how ger surveilance?

[Pontius Navigator]

ExNomad, I think the Reds already had that lesson driven home to them.

Thread drift but what iconic location would they use in UK to equal Red Square?

The Mall would probably have ropes across. Trafalgar Square has a few obstructions and a bird strike hazard. Someone plonked a Cenotaph in the middle.

[Royalistflyer]

Well that puts paid to the notion that the eagle and crown had anything to do with having been a Warrant Officer later SSC'd. I do know that my friend's father was a Warrant Officer pilot during the war, was commissioned SSC and plonked back to Warrant Officer when he elected to stay in at the end of the War. He fought his way back to Wing Commander by the time he retired (I met him briefly just before he retired - he rebuked me for not saying "good morning" to him in the corridor - not realising that I was new and very junior and scared witless of anyone over the rank of Flt Lt). Not bad going that - a man who did know how to do it.

[Danny42C]

Exnomad (your #148),

"...when they were trying unsuccessfully to teach me to fly Oxfords in 1952 at Dalcross"

IMHO, the worst possible lead-ins to the Meteor which would have almost certainly have come next !

Danny.

[Danny42C]

taxydual (your #152),

It would seem that the WWII RAAF were the only ones in step ! And at ITW we had an old Drill Corporal whose proudest boast was of have been "put on a charge" by Flight Lieutenant the Duke of York.

Also Royalistflyer (your #157),

"Well that puts paid to the notion that the eagle and crown had anything to do with having been a Warrant Officer"

Danny.

[Danny42C]

TTN (your #153),

".... Wound stripes were commonplace in WW1, when they took the form of a metal plate fixed with two lugs and a split pin. I think their reintroduction in WW2 was a bit of an afterthought - certainly they don't seem to have been widely worn".

It is quite possible that they lingered in India in WWII long after they had gone out of use in the UK. Mine was issued to me in '44 or '45, it ws about an inch long, 1/8 in wide gold braid on a cloth backing to sew on my K.D. tunic right lower sleeve (should've kept it).

Danny.

[Danny42C]

L-H (your #149),

Yes - I reckon you're right. Do you remember him puffing his pipe in the briefing scene in "Target for Tonight" ? We all had pipes in those days.

Danny.

[Pontius Navigator]

And into the 60s even, remember one AEO had a breathing curved thing, used to rib his pipe on it too :}

[L-H]

Danny, pretty much every piccie I have seen of Pic he has a pipe in tow. I suspect the undone button on his tunic right patch pocket is because there is a pipe stashed inside.

[MPN11]

I gave up pipe smoking, after many years, because of the sheer inconvenience when wearing uniform. A slim cigarette case was much easier, especially when wearing No 1 HD, No 5, DJ or a suit :)

Now, what was the topic? Oh, yes, I can't find my signed copy of Phil Congdon's "Behind the Hangar Doors" ... I'm sure there's a reference in there somewhere about the badge above the cuff. He and my OH were Flt Cdrs together at IOT ;)

[Wander00]

MPN11 - I have my copy too; was also a flt cdr on "B" with Phil

[Danny42C]

L-H (your #162), and MPN11 (your #163),

Well spotted, L-H ! And MPN11, couldn't agree more (except that I was never driven to the extreme of taking up cigarettes, having seen my father die from the effects). The most I would permit myself was an occasional "Hamlet" or the like, after I gave up the pipe completely when I retired in '72.

A Pipe Smoker needs: A Pipe; A Tobacco Pouch; A combination tool incorporating a tamper, a scraper and a spike; a "Hedgehog" (a reamer for serious de-carbonising the bowl); pipe-cleaners ad lib (cotton-coated wires for cleaning condensed tars out of stem) and a means of raising fire. The patch pocket was ideal for this lot.

I suspect that, in the early days of the war, there had been an idea put about (by "Peg's Paper" and the like), that what fluttered the heartstrings of the English Rose was the Strong, Silent Man. He would invariably be a bachelor, wore a tweed jacket smelling of tobacco, smoked a pipe and for a living did something dashing: a racing driver, an explorer, a big game hunter, a mountaineer or (best of all) a Pilot ! (Subliminal Message: Get a pipe and a tweed jacket for a head start).

Well, in war it was uniform all the time, but a pipe was easy to come by, and we were Pilots after all. It was worth a try. Of course, it was a crafty rumour, put about by the likes of Dunhills and the Harris Tweed Weavers Association. There was no truth in it.

Danny. :(

[Union Jack]

Of course, it was a crafty rumour, put about by the likes of Dunhills and the Harris Tweed Weavers Association. - Danny

Which inevitably reminded me of the tobacconist's shop in Earl Grey Street in my native Edinburgh which had an engraved mirror-backed advertisement on the shop front stating "He who smokes thinks like a philosopher".:uhoh:

I've never felt the need to follow that up before but, interestingly enough, a wee shoogle with Google indicates that this almost certainly derives from:

“A pipe is the fountain of contemplation, the source of pleasure, the companion of the wise; and the man who smokes, thinks like a philosopher and acts like a Samaritan.”

- Edward George Bulwer-Lytton, 1st Baron Lytton

I wonder if he received any royalties.....:rolleyes:


Jack

[Danny42C]

Jack,

While I cannot rise to the heights of grandiloquence displayed by the noble Lord Lytton, I might add that I have noted on this Forum that: "you cannot smoke a pipe and panic at the same time !"

And it adds a little gravitas to your pronouncements (as the late Harold Wilson well knew). :ok:

Danny.

[Union Jack]

While I cannot rise to the heights of grandiloquence displayed by the noble Lord Lytton - Danny

So how come that, at the time of writing, I see a total of 2843 posts, at a rate of 2.15 per day, Sir, to say nothing of the wealth of information, wit, and wisdom they contain, and the enormous resultant treat we have all been given?:ok::ok:

Jack

[MPN11]

Venturing bravely into the world of massive Thread Deviation, it is clear that my grandfather was a "... man who smokes, thinks like a philosopher and acts like a Samaritan."

Here's his pipe from WW1, which I subsequently smoked for many years until the crack in the bowl suggested it was time to let it retire gently to the glazed cabinet alongside his photo and his medals ;)

Carved/scratched with his signature, "No 9 Squadron" (the RNAS one) and various airfields on which he served ... Furnes, Bray Dunes, Dunkirk, Izel les Hameau and Cuizancourt. He was a Leading Air Mechanic, RNAS but obviously a gentleman too as it has a silver band!

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/P1040975.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/P1040975.jpg.html)

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/P1040974.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/P1040974.jpg.html)

Here he is in 1917 on the left (RNAS) with his brother (R West Kent) and my great-grandfather seated (then RFC, later RAF and formerly Scots Gds and Welch Regt)

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/HG%20amp%20Sons.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/HG%20amp%20Sons.jpg.html)

[Rosevidney1]

And that is a splendid photograph MPN11

[smujsmith]

Absolutely seconded Rosevidney, and how lucky our nation has been to be served by such fine gentlemen as those pictured.

MPN11, thanks for sharing this with us.

Smudge:ok:

[Danny42C]

Jack (your #168),

As always: "You do me too much honour, Sir !" I write to please myself, and if it should arouse interest in, or give pleasure to others, then that is a bonus.
Did not Johnson say: ‎“No man but a blockhead ever wrote, except for money.” ?

Danny.

[MPN11]

Cheers, Rosevidney1 and smujsmith ... but they were just a few of the millions of ordinary people who did their bit for Queen*/King and country.

* Victoria. Great-grandfather fought in Egypt with the Scots Gds at Tel-el-Kebir during the 1882 campaign. By the time he was finally discharged in 1919 he must have clocked up quite a few decades in Uniform [red and khaki].

** L/Cpl Jack wounded twice, I guess a common fate of a Signaller out there repairing telephone lines under fire. He died in hospital in France in 1918 [Flu? More wounds? Never found out how.]

[ian16th]

MPN11

I've taken the liberty of doing this with your lovely old photo.

If you like it, download it.

http://i818.photobucket.com/albums/zz108/ian16th/WWI%20Group.jpg

[teeteringhead]

[Flu? More wounds? Never found out how.] Not too difficult to obtain a copy of the Death Certificate, although wartime ones can be a bit terse - but should distinguish between 'flu (which accounted for many) and wounds.

Whatever deeds of derring do one accomplishes, the normal "slings and arrows" still lurk to get you. A cousin of Milady's was awarded the DCM in the Western Desert (and subsequently the honour of his story on the front page of Victor comic!). A few months later he was killed - run over by a 3 ton truck inside the camp. :(

[Danny42C]

MPN11 (your #169),

Thank you for the pictures. First, the pipe illustrated is very similar to my No.1 straight briar, bought from welfare supplies in India '44, (but had no silver band). I think airmen had a set of number and letter punches available in stores, as my first issue button-stick had punched into the brass plate the number (in the 9***** series) of a previous owner. Your pipe would, I think, have been carefully "personalised" in that way.

As for the family group, what is the man on the left using for buttons ? I thought all troops wore brass, what would these be made of, and why ? And L/Cpl Jack certainly has three metal (?) wound stripes, but why would one be up on his left shoulder and two down on the cuff ? And I thought they were worn on the right cuff ? YLSNED !

Your seated grandfather, a captain, looks rather elderly. At a guess, the battalion Quartermaster ?

Danny.

[Union Jack]

As for the family group, what is the man on the left using for buttons? I thought all troops wore brass, what would these be made of, and why?

Danny, With regard to the figure on the left, no soldier he recalling that MPN11's grandfather was a Leading Air Mechanic in the Royal Naval Air Service!:ok: Therefore, as a junior rating wearing fore and aft rig as opposed to square rig (think sailors with traditional collars for the latter), he will have been wearing black horn buttons, which would later be made of plastic for the few junior who still wore fore and aft rig before it was phased out for junior ratings.:sad:

Jack

[Fareastdriver]

When I was a squaddie in the Royal Rhodesia Regiment in my youth we had black buttons for our Bushjackets and shorts which we had to starch rigid before we put them on. This meant that to put them on you sat on a table and launched yourself into your shorts so that they stayed in shape.

On a barrack room inspection we would be called to attention and then there would be a pause whilst a minion would trot along the rows pulling the short's legs down and straight for the following inspection.

If nothing else they taught me to shoot; did they ever.

[MPN11]

Oh, dear ... I've started a sh*t-storm. Sorry, folks, it was only supposed to be a "Pipe Anecdote" :ooh:

ian16th ... how very kind! Saved! I can also now see Grandfather's service stripes! Would you also perform your magic on the attached for me, seemingly taken shortly after enlisting? I have always been surprised to see a junior rating in a flat cap, looking at a distance like a Petty Officer. enlisted Air Mechanic 2nd Class 24 Oct 16, promoted Acting Air Mechanic 1st Class 1 Jan 18. And on1 April 1918, he became an RAF AC2 [with a 'paper posting' to HMS Daedalus, aka Cranwell, and another one back to Dunkirk where he was working] before eventually becoming an AC1. Wow!! Eventually discharged on 30 Apr 1920.

teeteringhead ... I suppose I could have researched further, but L/Cpl Jack was a complete unknown to me. I have no idea where his medals went either - perhaps Captain H buried them somewhere after the loss of a son?

Danny42C ... the thought of my grandfather acquiring a "pipe, tobacco" from Stores is anathema! I suspect the "3rd wound stripe" on his upper sleeve is actually a Divisional insignia.

Union Jack ... not being familiar with RNAS rig in 1917 [the date of the group photo, taking in Woking] I defer to your expertise.

http://i319.photobucket.com/albums/mm468/atco5473/PPRuNe%20ATC/WPG%20RNAS.jpg (http://s319.photobucket.com/user/atco5473/media/PPRuNe%20ATC/WPG%20RNAS.jpg.html)

[Danny42C]

MPN11,

I would not dream of suggesting that your Grandad's pipe came from stores !
Just that Stores must have had the set of punches for him to do the lettering on it.

I think all the Tommies in WWI wore flat-ats (or tin helmets !)

Danny.

[ian16th]

'ere you are.
http://i818.photobucket.com/albums/zz108/ian16th/1936.jpg