2 ex-HKG flight delayed due no crew?

[Oval3Holer]

Who says CC is not working?

Two Cathay Pacific Airways flights were delayed on Sunday after crew members fell ill, with passengers complaining that they were not treated properly, Apple Daily reported on Monday.

The 272 passengers of New York-bound flight CX846, which was scheduled to take off at 6:45 p.m., waited aboard the plane for more than an hour before they were told to disembark at 8:15 p.m.

An on-board announcement said the co-pilot was ill.

While Cathay arranged for overseas passengers to stay overnight in hotels near the airport, Hong Kong passengers were told to wait either at the VIP lounge or go home with their taxi fares paid for by the company.

A passenger surnamed Wong said she thought it was ridiculous that there was no back-up co-pilot, adding that the company did not provide proper assistance to passengers.

A Cathy spokesman apologized for the delay, saying the flight had to be postponed to Monday noon because it took time to find a replacement.

Another Cathay flight, bound to take off for Milan at 1 a.m. Sunday, was also abruptly called off while the 204 passengers were ready to board the plane.

The airline said several crew members were indisposed.

Passengers also complained that they were not treated well, with foreigners given hotel accommodation while locals were only given taxi fares.

The flight did not take off until 9:32 a.m. Sunday.

[raven11]

Well, well, well.......it wont be long now.....

[Blowback]

The important point here is the flights didn't go because they couldn't find a G day worker to fill the hole .
It's past time that G day workers who undermine the efforts of the rest of us are let off so easily .

[Trafalgar]

For those of you who doubt, or those who seem to lack the intestinal fortitude to demonstrate the character needed during this time, let this story give you the extra encouragement towards doing your part. The company is desperate to make that one last 'push' towards degrading and devaluing any substance that this career once had. Everyone (EVERYONE) has a bone in this game. From the A scalers right down to the newly hired SO on HKPA, if you ever needed to play your part in a battle of character and courage, now is the time. The Swire mentality towards labour is archaic and debunked. It is only surviving due to the desperate measures of those last few anachronistic Swire management holdouts who are desperately trying to feather their own nests through bonuses before the whole edifice collapses. Do YOU want to be part of not only undermining your own career value, and that of your colleagues, but directly benefiting the likes of AT? No matter the personal sacrifice, this time will pass. Let's make sure we have brought down this venal and self absorbed management relic of the 18th century and replaced it with a career with dignity, proper renumeration and modern, first world work rules. If not now, then when? Hold your own close circle of friends to account. There should be NO one in our ranks who is letting down the common good at this time. We will prevail. This ridiculous excuse of an airline must be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

[Shep69]

"I can get a good look at a T-Bone steak by sticking my head up a cow's a$$, but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it" -- Big Tom Callahan

Apparently not everyone on the planet feels this way. Despite inputs by the subject matter experts, guess they'll just have to rediscover it for themselves.

Thinking that overlapping/excessive reserve and 'flexible' (a nice word for 'unstable') rosters allows one to mitigate CC and potentially use one's assets more efficiently is our version of getting a good look at the bovine alimentary canal. (n-1) is always less than (n) and this coupled with the loss of the real flexibility of A days (or real A days) results in having LESS resources available for the task at hand. There's no real way to shuffle things to make this not the case. One hole filled in the next hour creates four more tomorrow and sixteen more later in the week. Not to mention the frustration of crew controllers in trying to fix this, and only seeing the harder they work the more unintended consequences happen. Being stuck in 10 mile scope with the added problem of folks not answering their phones when needed prevents any efficient use of crews. We see wild swings in overtime, people timing out, people timing out for training events and either scrambling or going non-current (further exacerbating the problem) and people becoming fatigued and unable to legally fly.

IF this type of system had any chance of working, ATC agencies would simply wait for airplanes to freecall them and not worry about planning tracks and flow into airports. Just let people show up. The US ATC system learned long ago this didn't work very well and started installing software to look several hundred miles out for orderly sequencing of aircraft into airports. Works great. In fact, when this system failed recently the US northeast experienced THEIR version of how WE currently roster--causing massive delays and cancellations. Better to plan for an orderly flow that people can plan around, plan rest around, and actually do.

There's a lot to be said for 'owned' and stable rosters and third generation PBS based systems. Moreover, if people can trade trips and there's a coherent rostering system in place most problems work themselves out by pilots picking up trips and sorting things out amongst themselves. Our throwing the published roster out the window (along WITH RPs) is having predictable effects. Especially when helpfulness in the form of goodwill isn't there.

Efficiency and roster stability go hand in hand; using some reserve assets to backfill bona-fide contingencies. If someone has a printed trip they'll usually fly it. If we get continuous body clock swaps, complete unknown as to what happens next, and what we do does not resemble anything close to what was planned it takes its toll. Not only in the company not being able to roster efficiently but also in one's body not being able to perform a trip. A body isn't a switch and can't be turned on and off on a whim. And we are not allowed to fly when not fit to do so. Full stop. Roster inefficiencies are exacerbated by individuals being forced to decline a trip which changes at the last minute. With predictable outcomes.

Moreover, continuous lack of stable patterns results in long-term fatigue to humans. Just a fact of life. This opens the door to all kinds of very real physical ailments, some of which can bring a person down for a very long time. So you not only lose your assets in the short term, you lose them for long periods in the long term as well. You burn them out and they break. And then when and if they become fixed you have to devote even more collateral non-value added assets to get them re-current again. Kinda like running a car engine at high speed and never changing the oil or brakes. Investments have maintenance costs associated with them. People are no different.

[Arfur Dent]

Basically, everyone goes along with this archaic 'system'. It didn't work that well in the 80's and it certainly doesn't work now but we all shamble around and fill the gaps somehow. If people stick together and work to rule, the whole edifice will surely collapse.
Surely.....???????

[Captain Dart]

It is now an anorexic corporation.

After decades of managers making cuts, taking their bonuses and 'moving on', it can't maintain a day-to-day operation responding to minor disruptions such as sickness of one crew member, let alone respond to new growth opportunities. Now they have tired, sick and unmotivated flight crew, employed in insufficient numbers on sub-standard packages.

I could see this coming from 1999. Age 65 retirement, SARS and the odd financial crisis kicked the can down the road a little but now, here it is.

[Shep69]

What would be nice is if they would come to their senses and instead of flat plating the pilots group (thus losing their goodwill) and playing a power game (which doesn't really exist) they'd take a problem solving approach. There are plenty of win-win solutions on the table which cost little in terms of keeping the operation running and expanding it.

At the end of the day, it doesn't MATTER who is right or wrong. If the mission isn't getting done it's not getting done. Fix the problem, not the blame.

It's like a power grid. If there isn't enough generating capacity for the demand at the time (or the generators are restricted in their operation) someone isn't going to get power. Moreover, deliberately keeping a significant fraction of your generation capacity on standby somewheres else (or even at all) is pretty damn stupid. Not even knowing where your generators are or will be tomorrow even worse. 3-man and other penny pinching measures won't increase generating capacity. The generators CAN operate more efficiently and at better demand distribution levels would a sensible RP agreement be achieved. What I might expect next is a series of rolling blackouts such that one sector isn't overly unserviced.

[Blowback]

This is a direct result of swires management philosophy . They Bring in short term directors before moving them on elsewhere . The only thing the directors are concerned with are their bonuses not the overall health of the company . Therefore no one is held responsible for long term trends .
Why forego or reduce your annual bonus to make a decision that will benefit the company in years to come and add to someone else's bonus many years down the line .
A perfect example of this was the decision to build CX city in its present location vs the site where terminal 2 currently stands . It was cheaper in the short term but long term not the best decision But hey it would have affected Erringtons bonus so we got what we now have

[Threethirty]

Nothing will ever change here, the rot and the pig headed management style are set in. I can't see the airline existing in a few years time, either it'll be taken over, or it'll self implode. You have to leave and join another carrier that's the only salvation.

[Trafalgar]

Threethirty is correct. Don't be like the boiling frog. If you are 40ish or under, leave now. The sooner you establish on the seniority list of a proper carrier, with first world work rules, the sooner you will advance within a rational and stable system. Will it all work out for everyone?...no, but for most it will be the best decision of your lives. Leave before it's too late. CX is doomed as we know it.

[Arfur Dent]

I've quoted the Indian Mutiny before but it's even more valid as things progress. How hard is it for our genius Management Team to get?
If you push people far enough and over a long enough period they will rebel because they just don't care any more and you can do nothing else to harm them.
Leave while you can. Me? I'm off soon anyway and can't wait.

[Average Fool]

If it's not in the weekly wrap up, it didn't happen.

Everything is fine here folks, move along.

[Scoreboard]

It's easy guys just start going sick....they are even running out of G day workers

[broadband circuit]

2 were crewed by G day workers (one on requested G days)

Any way to subtly give a hint on who they were.... names, flights, rank etc

[raven11]

Spot on Out backer.
And that's why we received only $2000HKD in "profit share", after the company raked in their usual billions. Why waste money on the future goodwill of someone else's employees.....

[kenfoggo]

I am sure that Outbacker is correct. It feels like the end of days at Cathay after years and years of everything being done DOWN to a cost rather than UP to a standard; clearly unsustainable. It goes way beyond prudent Management. It certainly looks as if the enterprise is being set up for a sale.

[Progress Wanchai]

Hahaha.
Set up for a sale? You give these halfwits far too much credit.

Who would touch a business with an unrealized fuel hedging loss of $10 billion.
An airline whose annual results are worse than qantas? (Themselves a basket case but not in our class)

You're suggesting the current mess is actually a strategic plan being executed by competent management.
Trust me. Such a conspiracy is far beyond them.

[Yonosoy Marinero]

What crew shortage?

Rumor around the interwebs is that they're considering launching LGW...

2 man crew to Europe anyone?

[Blowback]

Again all our efforts being undermined by sanctimonious G day workers . Imagine the press coverage if 4 flights had not gone due to crew shortages instead of just 2
Forget trying to educate these people it clearly isn't working ,
So my attitude is if you want to undermine all our efforts fine, but know that there will be consequences ,we need to name and shame . If they are FO's then no sectors to be given unless absolutely necessary and never a jump seat for any rank period .
If that doesn't work I have a few more extreme ideas .
But let's start with name and shame so flights and rank pse on the 2 GD workers so I can add to my list

[okm]

So's your English! :=

[goathead]

Latest I have heard
Locally born and bred LEPs doing hordes of gdays and laughing about it
Please do the right thing and report to the AOA so if ( probabaly never) they have any sense they will be on the banned from joining list
Hahahaha in my wildest dreams
The AOA would bever do such would they

[azhkman]

Waiting at gate 32 for my full CX251 (HKG-LHR) flight to board. They have told us to sit down as the crew hasn't shown up yet. It's 23:40 and Flightaware is still showing a 23:55 departure time.

Is this CC at work?

Wow.. Original post 23:40, crew shows up at 23:44--whew. By the way, 3 person crew, 1 old dude, 1 middle aged dude, and one slightly attractive female.

Hope it goes well for y'all. T&C's are going down in all industries--but the impact is really felt when you fight back.

Update: I didn't realise the captain was not with the first three. It's 00:00 now he just showed up looking very pensive. Salt & pepper hair, about 5'9", posture of a blogger. About 8 cabin crew showed up with him, every one including El Capitan had Starbucks with them.

Quite an operation going on tonight! Until this is resolved, I'll book Virgin for LHR flights going forward I think.

One other note, the gang working the counter kept looking out the window. It seemed their expectation was that the crew would show up by bus to the plane, not strolling in from Starbucks with pumpkin spice chai iced lattes...

[OK4Wire]

Nice work, azhkman!

BTW, they were SOY pumpkin spice chai iced lattes...

Hope you got there $afely.

:ok:

[Don Quixote]

Regardless of CC, turning up at the gate to a delayed flight carrying any sort of drink prepared by a barista is not cool.
It's unprofessional and disrespectful to our paying passengers.
If you are walking through the terminal to your flight that has been delayed, at least attempt look like you care about the pax.
If you need to delay your arrival at the A/C to comply with CC recommendations, do so before immigration where nobody knows what flight you are operating.

[Lowkoon]

What do you suggest, a six pack of red bull?

[rjmore]

Most likely the aircraft wasn't there yet and was being towed. That's the only time I've ever even gone up to the terminal in HKG for a flight I was working. The agents were probably looking out the window for the airplane not the crew.

[asianeagle]

Regardless of CC, turning up at the gate to a delayed flight carrying any sort of drink prepared by a barista is not cool.
It's unprofessional and disrespectful to our paying passengers.
If you are walking through the terminal to your flight that has been delayed, at least attempt look like you care about the pax.
If you need to delay your arrival at the A/C to comply with CC recommendations, do so before immigration where nobody knows what flight you are operating.

Well, if I am thirsty, I can buy a drink if I want.
Coffee / tea / food on the plane is crap and generally not edible.:uhoh:
If I am late, it's probably not because I am being unprofessional, it's probably because I WAS being professional in ensuring I stick to the rules, trying to show up properly rested etc.
The fact that I am late is most likely due to some non pilot operational muppet who can't do there jobs properly:mad:

Whats not cool is uniformed pilots having to find a bench to nap on in the terminal because that self same non pilot operation muppet is too tight to spring for a hotel room.:ugh::ugh:

[Don Quixote]

You're missing my point Eagle, showing up late is fine, just do it like you mean business when you do get to the gate.
Pax don't give a hoot about CC so trying to impress them by showing you are in CC is pointless.
CC is about complying with your contract. Deliberately causing further delay in full view of pax is not CC.
But that's just my opinion, yours is obviously different, keep doing what you do and see how it works out for you .
As someone else said, it could have been that the A/C was not yet on the bay.
Same thing applies, at least look like you mean business when you arrive at the gate to a DELAYED flight ...

[Just Do It]

Regardless of CC, turning up at the gate to a delayed flight carrying any sort of drink prepared by a barista is not cool.
It's unprofessional and disrespectful to our paying passengers.
If you are walking through the terminal to your flight that has been delayed, at least attempt look like you care about the pax.
If you need to delay your arrival at the A/C to comply with CC recommendations, do so before immigration where nobody knows what flight you are operating.

Sorry, give me a few more hours to respond. Cant stop the laughter. Must breath! Haven't laughed so much over a post in a long time! Well done.

[azhkman]

Good flight in the end! I took some amazing sunrise city photos during the landing at Heathrow.

Just one thought, because everything seemed so scattered at boarding time, and since pushback was 1:10 late but landing was only 0:15 late. Could the departure have been delayed by atc, to try to land at the correct time? Hence the crew had time to kill, but no one informed the gate staff. The gate people were behaving as if the flight was to pushback on time.

Or could they pull the crew from another flight since CX251 was full, and try to resolve the crew situation for a different flight? Hence the crew was in the terminal.

The gate announcement said only cockpit crew was late, but that was not true as at least 10 FAs came the same way.

All the best, I'm going to enjoy the holiday in London & Brussels.

[asianeagle]

You're missing my point Eagle,

no, I think you have!!

Since when does showing up at the gate with a beverage crafted by a barista imply that I might be unprofessional or don't mean business.
Nor does it mean I have deliberately delayed the flight cos we are in CC.

All it means is I was thirsty since, its probably a weird start time, the room service was not available or the fact that I wasn't afforded descent accommodation for my 4-5 hour stop in the terminal.

We all are 'the business', we all mean business, thats why we tend to expect our 'leaders' to act the same, they don't.

Its got F@x all to do with the coffee!

[Bill Smith]

Lets not forget the pristine potable water!

[geh065]

The company allows us to have $90 worth of refreshments for a delayed flight, so effectively they are endorsing buying food and drink.

[XFR8]

I'm working on my "look like I mean business look" , but it's difficult to disguise the utterly buggered due to 5 roster changes "look"

Any tips Dan?

Bad day for CX yesterday. Keep it up boys and girls, the price of good will is becoming all too apparent.

[crwkunt roll]

Just put your phone to your ear, look angry and keep shaking your head.

[bm330]

Latest nugget.

CX does a gate return after passengers spot a RAT on board the aircraft. Requires an aircraft change,, full re-catering and passenger comp. Please tell me the crew did not use discretion to get this one done.

[oriental flyer]

Well as long as the rat had its rabies shot and frequent flyer miles card it should be good to go

On the other hand if the RAT was a G day worker then it was right and proper that it be offloaded

[oriental flyer]

If the Capt was called out to operate the flight at the last minute , in order to save time one would assume that he went directly to the aircraft from the AEL

Stopping for a coffee would take no more than 5 mins and presumably give him a much needed caffine boost for the flight , after being on reserve for a number of hours with no chance of achieving pre flight rest, because he was unaware that he was to be called out for a long haul flight

Personally I think it was a very sensible decision to arrive at the gate in a calm professional manner instead of looking flustered and harried

It really is falling apart isn't it

[azhkman]

Just to update you, and clarify... The plane was at the gate at least one hour before boarding time, and I saw it there. I saw the gate people setting up the ropes, so I went off to get some soda for the flight before returning which is when I started documenting for you in real time.

I think some cabin crew was on the plane, as I only counted 12 (at most) with the pilots showing up.

I am wondering because of the low winds, atc knew the plane would arrive too early so the crew knew to go to the plane late (we ended up taking off 1:10 late, but landing only 0:15 late). Or, was the crew taken from another flight and put on this one? Not sure--food for fodder.

Also, the gate people on the announcements specifically mentioned cockpit crew was late to arrive to the aircraft.

Anyways, great flight, only saw the seatbelt sign on once, and I took some awesome sunrise pictures during the arrival.

Whoever is flying LHR-HKG on the 29th, try not to be sick...;)

[Yeager]

What's new? I've always said that Cathay Pathetic is a **** "airline" to work for! It's a waste of dirty air and parking space! ;-) What's new again? :D:D:ok::}:ok:

[Pucka]

Cabin crew the other day after delay got their vouchers..we were told we didn't qualify?delay not long enough?wtf....No sandwich for crew ex Syd on last night flight and no outlets open in terminal..crew meals were inedible...and you expect us to be "business like and caring"..wtf again..suggest if you starbuck your way across a terminal..take your pathetic slides off..blend in and be a bus driver..that's all we are..

[Yeager]

U boyz & gals should demand meatballs. Swedish meatballs from Ikea🍼🍼💩👮🏿

[gearupmaxpower]

Azhkman.

Ground staff often tell porkies at the gate over the PA or to travelers in the knowledge that general passengers wouldn't know a lie if it slapped them in the face.

I have overheard quite a few whoppers being told and I have heard ground staff tell outright lies. They deflect the blame anyway they can from themselves and the company. Crew, especially pilots, are often the target of the lies. Whether this is by design or convenience(not there to defend themselves), I will leave it up to you to decide.

[Jn14:6]

Azakhman
What most likely happened:-
(1) Unusually short flight time (mine yesterday only 11:30) meant a delay due LHR curfew.
(2) Crew held in CX City. Crew channel closes, thus crew go to aircraft via terminal.
(3) Delay triggers refreshment voucher claim for all crew - redeemable in the only airport outlet still open - Starbuck's
(4) Ground staff blame everything on those nasty crew members.

[OK4Wire]

those nasty crew members.

I think you meant to say: "...those nasty pilots."

It's almost like they've been programmed.

[Jn14:6]

Exactly!!!!!

[BlunderBus]

So how hard would it be to let the pax know it's a curfew delay instead of all the other crap they come up with?

[Kid Dynamite]

There are at least 13 flights with crew missing for tomorrow.
That's just one fleet, all long haul.
Should be interesting.

[Threethirty]

How many of those flights will go 3 Man LRO, or be staffed by G day workers??

[Pucka]

WGAS...the whole bloody charabang is becoming a definition of substandard.catering is now Krup..wine choice is bottom shelf..literally..Babich in biz..??..cheese platter yesterday was 2 crackers a plate..reason?..new loading quantities.why bother?

[Trafalgar]

hmmm.... almost 20 LAX-HKG sectors to be cancelled in September. Crew shortage....nooooooo. The house is falling down and the management are DESPERATE to prevent us from realizing just how effective CC is now becoming. Keep the pressure on everyone. Time to buy the popcorn and enjoy the show. :D

[Arfur Dent]

As the man said - just do what you have to do. Don't answer the phone unless on reserve. Leave red lights in the room flashing and go out for the day. Don't even think about 'helping out' because 'there isn't anyone else'. Whose fault is that? Certainly not yours and certainly not on a G Day.
Stay the course.

[BlunderBus]

2 years until a 'fix' for rostering? Utter crap ... I've heard that for the last 25 years. The could implement readily available software in a week .. Produce rosters and have a definitive view of the shortfall ... We all know the self induced problem and this BS from the co. Is going nowhere !!

[BlunderBus]

Crazy thing is ... People actually think working what we are contracted to do... And flying to the limit ..amounts to some kind of abuse on our part!!!!!
Who in the world works for free??