Mid air collision @ Brown Field / San Diego

[highlandpark]

Authorities: 3 dead in midair collision of small planes (http://bigstory.ap.org/article/4b5124bd642e43488feacf175e8065d1/authorities-3-dead-midair-collision-small-planes)

first article concerning mid air collision between Cessna 172 and Sabreliner (jet), BROWN FIELD 13 miles South East of downtown San Diego. 3 fatalities.


early details only.

[lansen]

Seems like there has been a mid air collision between a 172 and a Sabreliner.

2 planes collide near Brown Field | SanDiegoUnionTribune.com (http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/news/2015/aug/16/plane-crash-brown-field-fatal/)

Anybody who knows more about this?

[Old Boeing Driver]

The same news info has been reported all day with no changes.

[lansen]

LA Times says the 172 came from Gillespie Field. So it was most likely a flight school aircraft.

[Knife-Edge]

Unfortunately now being reported as 4 dead.

[pineridge]

I have just seen a documentary on Tv investigating the problems with the "see and be seen" method of traffic avoidance and the development of TCAS.
A live demonstration of the difficulties of seeing fast moving aircraft was demonstrated by test pilots flying a Sabreliner.
However, a tragic occurrence. Southern California has had its share of mid-airs.
The documentary had a look at a fatal mid-air some years ago, also in the San Diego area.

[Machinbird]

See and be seen has its limitations. Sometimes only one aircraft is in a position to prevent a collision. If those occupants are head down or have their attention directed elsewhere, bad stuff can happen fast.

Officials said they have found four bodies in the wreckage, which was strewn across a wide area.
"It appears it was a very violent crash, as you can tell by both aircraft being in multiple pieces," said Cal Fire Division Chief Nick Schuler.
The wreckage from the two planes landed about 100 yards apart, said sheriff's Lt. Jim Bolwerk. No homes were damaged by the fires.

[PappyJ]

History repeating itself. I recall that the last midair near San Diego was a Single Cessna and a Boeing 727. Sometime in the seventies if memory serves me.

[172driver]

You mean this one (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PSA_Flight_182). RIP.

[ironbutt57]

several mid-airs during my time there, including the PSA one, lots of light aircraft traffic, and all block in by the surrounding mountains..very congested airspace, Brown Field was one of the more open ones as it was farther away from the city, and other 3 airports

[Sawbones62]

Latest news is the Sabreliner was out of Mohave, leased by BAE Systems and had 4 souls on board. The C172 was out of San Diego with a solo pilot on a cross-country flight. BAE operates a shipyard in San Diego.

XETV link (http://www.sandiego6.com/news/local/Planes-collide-east-of-Brown-Field-321997211.html)

[ATC Watcher]

The seen and be seen principle was designed at a time where a/c were few and slow,it doesn't work well when one (or both ) is doing 300 Kts
But it is the best we have still .
Mixing IFR jets with slow VFR pistons in same piece of airspace often on différent frequencies is the issue , and as their number is growing the rate of such collision will be too.
The current technological solutions are either too expensive for GA , or not really working (e.g ADS-B) Segregation is another solution but extremely unpopular.
But if the number of death raise to an unacceptable level , that is probably what will happen in the end .

[ironbutt57]

well....the jet would have had a 200t airspeed limitation due airspace, and also a 500ft higher circuit than the 172, knowing the area, it looks like a base turn area from a north downwind..also there is a VFR tower there as well...so not sure how this one happened, unless the tower was inactive at the time..

[172_driver]

Anyone heard about the identity of the C172? It's tragic nonetheless, but still have friends at one of the biggest schools at Gillespie with a fleet of Cessnas. Same school lost two instructors in a mid-air out of Montgomery in 2006.

[peekay4]

Tower was active at the time of the accident.

One speculation is that the Cessna might have turned base early, cutting in front of the Sabreliner already on final.

Another speculation is that the Cessna might have lined up for 26R instead of 26L.

[Gove N.T.]

#ATC Watcher
Surely every death is unacceptable.
I have no knowledge of flying arrangements in Southern California but it seems unbelievable that ATC isn't on top of this.
Is it $$$$s?

[172_driver]

Brown is D airspace. IFR and VFR is not separated, only traffic information is given. Large volumes of airspace in SoCal is E. So you'll find IFR traffic under ATC control in areas where VFR doesn't even have to announce their presence. Lots of people enjoy the benefits of open and accessible airspace. But it comes with risks.

Purely for information purpose. I have no idea about the circumstances in this event.

[aterpster]

172 Driver:

Brown is D airspace. IFR and VFR is not separated...

For those not familiar with U.S. rules, I would qualify Driver's statement by adding "...provided the Class D Surface Area is VFR which, for this purpose, is not less than a 1,000' ceiling and 3 miles visibility."

When the weather is less than 1,000 and/or 3 miles, VFR operations are limited to Special VFR, which requires a clearance and separation from IFR aircraft. And, in these circumstances IFR traffic has priority.

[pattern_is_full]

Still a lot unknown about this collision. But I've seen the scenario peekay4 mentions, in real life (and no doubt others have seen similar, too.)

Visiting the tower at TJIG (small downtown airport in San Juan) - tower clears National Guard Shorts 330 to land on long final - goofer in a 172 on downwind turns base right in front of the Shorts. The tower saw what was up about the same moment the Shorts announced "We're, uhh, doing a 360 here for spacing" (with which the tower concurred), and the controller told the 172 driver to (ahem) come talk to the tower after landing. Also told the other small fry in the pattern to extend their downwind legs to give the Shorts time for its circle.

[Hotel Tango]

pattern is full, that JIG incident as you describe it would be an ATC error. The C172 should have been instructed to extend the downwind leg and position as number 2 to the Shorts.

[pattern_is_full]

Good point - I believe the tower HAD requested that 172 to extend, and it missed or ignored the call (been a few years). Certainly both the controller and the Shorts were not expecting the 172's turn to base in that location.

[highlandpark]

I am guessing the Sabreliner would have had TCAS. Wondering if the tower has split frequency?

Has anyone heard the ATC tape? I can't imagine tower not saying, CAUTION C172 inbound from (direction) and Sabreliner inbound from (direction) say altitude!