Boeing / 787 technical status before ETOPs Entry Point - redundancy requirements

[300-600]

I believe the 767 requires the crossfeed valve to be tested prior to EEP and cannot enter ETOPs airspace without it.

The 737 requires the same and the APU generator to be running (electrical redundancy requirement).

Part of our ETOPs training presentations suggests failure of two 787 Long Range Nav systems would preclude entry into MNPS airspace (but this is not shown in any of our official manuals).

Does anyone know of any equipment loss (apart from those checklist items that dictate divert to nearest suitable airport) which would preclude ETOPs entry...ie need to reroute non ETOPS or force a divert.

Thanks in advance

[Spooky 2]

Not aware of a requirement to test the x-feed valve(s) prior to the EEP. It might be in your ETOPS manual supplement and therefore it becomes a de-facto requirement.


Some 737's utilizing a Boeing APU maint. program are exempt from the APU requirement prior or during the designated ETOPS portion of the flight. The start is usually done at the end of the ETOPS leg when cold soaked.


Pretty sure the requirement for two LRNs has not been changed even in the 787 avionics package. Had they failed already I would be thinking there must be a problem here. I believe the ICAO MNPS manual covers this issue regardless of operator/aircraft.


Lastly it's not a "suitable alternate" anymore but rather a ETOPS alternate in the most recent pubs.

[c100driver]

The B767 cross feed did not meet the reliability required hence the original requirement to open the cross feed at the EDTO entry point. This was deleted once the second cross feed valve was available and installed in the aircraft.

The B737 had two APU suppliers one of which was able to demonstrate air start reliability, the other required the APU to be on at the EDTO entry point.

EDTO and MNPS are two different fish. Loss of a LR Nav system does not affect EDTO.

[Spooky 2]

I think there is some confusion here so take a look at this issue of the Boeing Airliner which discusses ETOPS and the Boeing 737 APU.


http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aeromagazine/articles/2013_q2/pdf/AERO_2013q2.pdf


Of course the loss of nav capability would preclude entering MNPS or any other Class ll airspace??

[Wizofoz]

Neither cross feed check nor APU is required for ETOPS on the 777, so I doubt they are on the 787.

Does the 787 have dual cross feed valves?

[Spooky 2]

Single crossfeed

[No Fly Zone]

@Spooky 2:
Sir, this is slightly off-thread, but your comment,

..."Some 737's utilizing a Boeing APU maint. program are exempt from the APU requirement prior or during the designated ETOPS portion of the flight. The start is usually done at the end of the ETOPS Segment when cold-soaked..." ... confuses me a bit. What am I missing? If the APU was not used during an ETOPS segment, why would one want to start it when cold-soaked or not, at the end of the ETOPS segment? I do not doubt you, sir, but I must be missing something. Perhaps a critical word is missing. I don't do 737 and do not have access to the books, without a LOT of trouble, so I pass it back to you. Thank you:confused:.

[Oakape]

It's called 'APU on demand' & is where you would only start the APU if required by the loss of a generator. Periodically the APU is required to be started at altitude after cold soaking, in order to validate the requirement that it will start when required. This is usually indicated to the crew by a tech log entry from the engineers.

The other two possible APU procedures for ETOPS on the B737 are leaving it running after engine start until the ETOPS exit point, or shutting it down after engine start & starting it again prior to the ETOPS entry point. Both of these require the APU to be running during the ETOPS portion of the flight so that the APU generator is immediately available if one of the other generators fail.

Regarding the cross-feed valve, our mob require an operational check during the pre-flight duties of the F/O, as well as during the last hour of cruise, in order to check its operation when cold soaked. Aircraft with dual cross-feed valves don't require these checks.

[Spooky 2]

I think Oakape covered it nicely. Did you read the article I posted from the Boeing Airliner magazine?


So if you were flying today from say KSFO to PHNL you would need to have the APU running by the EEP and then again shut it down when existing the ETOPS area of operations at the ETOPS Exit Point (EXP), or you could just leave it running after you have started your engines at the gate in KSFO and not take a chance on it not starting. Company policy would dictate this procedure. If you were approved for the program as outlined in the article you could operate just like you would in the 757/767.


Had the 737 had some sort of a HMG, none of this would be applicable.

[sleeve of wizard]

ETOPs and MNPS are 2 completely different areas which may overlap or be in conjunction with one another.

For the 787 for our operation Required Equipment for MNPS, An aircraft must be equipped with at least 2 Long Range Navigation Systems meeting certain accuracy and reliability requirements.
In order to operate in MNPS airspace, the following equipment needs to be operative
1 IRS
1 FMC
1 CDU
1 GPS

[No Fly Zone]

Thanks guys. Got it. No, did not see the Boeing article; could not find it.

[Oakape]

The link to the Boeing article is in post #4 by Spooky 2. The article starts on page 25 of the magazine.