Which Plane......

[Straighten Up]

Evening all,

There are a few old threads on this but as everyone has different requirements, I thought I'd reach out for some advice.

I have a PPL/IR(R), 150 hrs and about to commence CPL/FI, no SJS. I love just getting out to fly to new places, and would really like to go further afield but the club won't let me take the aircraft for more than a few hours at a time, so time to invest in a share or create my own group.

I'm loosely familiar with permit vs CoA and don't really have a preference, but please correct me if I'm wrong on my understanding.

Permit - easier (cheaper) maintenance, less restrictions on modifications, some interesting aircraft that have better fuel economy etc.

CoA - able to fly night/IMC which you can't do in permit (?), easier to travel abroad without getting permission, able to hire out/do CPL work in it.

I'm hoping to fly around 25-30 hours a year, mostly UK, but also needs to be something that would be comfy for 2 plus luggage to get down to Italy/Croatia/Spain. Ideally I'd like something that will do 150kts+. The budget is relatively flexible - I'd like to think that my share would be less than £10k - but could finance getting something outright at say 50k and then trying to sell shares to bring my exposure down.

I look forward to your comments. Many thanks.

[9 lives]

I'm not conversant with all the UK rules, but the general rules about aircraft operation are pretty universal. A few include:

Flying 150 knots will likely cost you half again to twice the cost to fly 100 knots. That's fine, as long as you're willing to pay. But that cost is attached to the plane, whenever it flies, not just when it goes fast!

Non certified aircraft require maintenance just as certified ones do. True, there are fewer regulatory costs, but be careful selecting non certified to save maintenance costs, you still must maintain the plane to be airworthy, and pay that cost. You don't do less maintenance because its non certified!

The fact that you own, does not prevent you still renting. I've owned my C 150 for 28 years. It would never carry my wife and four kids (though it did carry my wife and two of them, when they were little). I have, on occasion rented or borrowed to carry more of them together, or go faster on a long trip.

30 hours a year won't really pay back the investment in the plane, so you're subsidizing it, which is fine, or you'd better plan to have it return an investment, if you own it.

Slow planes still get there. My 150 is the faster of my two planes. I took my wife, two folding bikes, and a bit of luggage 1500 miles to the Bahamas for a week. It was still faster than driving!

[Straighten Up]

Step turn - thanks for your input. I hadn't appreciated quite what a difference the extra airspeed would make to costs - perhaps I should bin that requirement (or at least take it down to 120ish) and see what other options come up. I do of course appreciate your point regarding maintenance. Thanks.

[FleetFlyer]

On the Permit vs CofA costs question, permit aeroplanes are much cheaper to maintain, not because there is less maintenance, just because you can do most of it yourself.

The LAA are in the process of allowing some types to be cleared for IFR/IMC flight. If you think you can afford it, then a Vans RV 4/6/7/8 would be the way to go as these are going to be cleared, though on a plane by plane basis(i.e. you'll need the right instruments/avionics)

An RV will cruise at 150kt and cost you about £70/80 per hour. The monthlies will vary but expect about £100-£200 per month depending on the size of the group. Most of these are also aerobatic. A 1/6 share in an RV7 will run to between £6k & £10k depending on engine hours, group funds, avionics fit, etc.

If you want to go cheaper then a Jodel group would probably be a good shout. Its a real ball ache to set up your own group, so check thoroughly for one that fits your needs nearby. Don't wait for them to advertise, just find a group member and ask if he/she knows of any current members that might be open to an offer.

A decent group will be happy for you to take the plane to Europe for a week once a year.

[flybymike]

A decent group will be happy for you to take the plane to Europe for a week once a year.
Provided that if and when the weather allows you to get there, it also allows you to get back again, and that you don't have to come back on scheduled airlines in order to meet commitments back home, and then have to second guess when it might be suitable weather to fly back over there again in order to fetch the aeroplane back.
(Voice of experience)

[FleetFlyer]

The key is flexibility. Allow yourself a window of a couple days for your return and don't allow yourself to be pressured into flying when it looks bad. Its worked for me in the past.

[thing]

I'm surprised your club won't let you have an aircraft for more than a few hours if you're planning longer trips. If you book it for the day and fly a three hour leg each way they would still get far more utilisation than five people taking it for an hour each plus it's easier on the donk.

[foxmoth]

A 1/6 share in an RV7 will run to between £6k & £10k depending on engine hours, group funds, avionics fit, etc
You would be EXTREMELY lucky to find a 1/6th share in a "7" for even the top price! Maybe a "6", but good examples of these are going for over £60K now! I would agree though that an RV is the sort of aircraft the OP should be looking at, also monthlies you quote would probably be a bit lower than that for a 6 person group.

[Straighten Up]

Thanks for all your replies

Thing - they probably would let me do it if I wanted to do 6 hours in a day, but part of the appeal of flying to me is being able to go somewhere that maybe isn't 3 hours away for a whole day (eg. for an event), or going to europe but spending a couple of days relaxing when there. I don't hold it against them - they are looking to make money but I don't want to fly 3 hours for lunch then turn around and fly back.

fleetflyer - 3 of the other tabs open on my browser are about Vans, 1 about the czech sport cruiser - I love the look of these aircraft, excited about the aeros capability, (having had a grand total of one 20 min Pitts lesson), but I'm struggling to find a group - any suggestions in SE welcome. I will also go hunting and am off to Sywell in a few weeks so will look there too.

flybymike - i appreciate your comments on availability and weather for the continent - I'm self employed so would rarely have to be back for a certain day, so can always be flexible. Also I will probably extend my IR(R) to the EIR or full IR to allow a bit more flex on the continent.

The VANS hunt is on.....

[9 lives]

I don't want to fly 3 hours for lunch then turn around and fly back.

You don't necessarily have to fly the 3 hours a day, just pay for it!

Back when I rented, I wanted to take a rental 177RG for a week's holiday. I was told as long as I paid a minimum 4 hours per day use, I could have it. My actual use worked out to 3.8 per day, and they said that was fine. The provider of the plane would probably be delighted to have it away for three days, paid for nine hours use, and it only flew a couple - less wear and tear. They have their reasonable utilization income covered, and you went where you wanted, everyone is happy. Negotiation can be very worthwhile....