Brits and CTC [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

tailscrape

17th Jun 2002, 16:33

Mr Bombastic,

Good news, well done. I hope you are all succesful.

However, do remember there is a fine line between being a plank and being sensitive to others feelings.

Ther are guys who had been promised places before you by Brits,and it did not materialise....they are probably feeling a bit blue at the moment, and I think you are being a little smug. Just an observation.

Before you ask, I am an ex CTC Cadet, who is flying the 757 for another UK operator. I have no axe to grind, but I wonder if the CTC management would want you advertising what may be a slightly sensitive issue?

Again, good luck with your interview.

BronzeAge

17th Jun 2002, 16:34

Mr Bombastic,

Thankyou for putting us straight on the matter.

Well after passing the two day selection back in September and then hoping and waiting patiently for a chance of a look in at Brits.................looks as though weve been pipped at the post by someone with a larger wallet.

nuf said

Stampe

17th Jun 2002, 16:54

Patience hopefully will come to all those who wait!!,training capacity constraints may be an issue here.Good luck to you all nothing is cast in stone yet.My father recommended chartered accountancy to me when I left school!!.I ignored his advice I,ve had a lot fun and still do but I suspect it was sound advice.

Bluebaron

23rd Jun 2002, 09:18

As one of the pilots who was due to start in November with Brits i´m disappointed if this rumour is true.

Are you saying here that they are recruiting 250 hr cadets who have just spent 15,000 odd grand on a 757 type rating or are we talking about experienced 757 pilots who are looking for work.

If it´s the latter then i can see the economic sense in recruiting these guys. If not then i don´t see the point, why not give those pilots selected before, the opportunity of self sponsering their type rating?

Anyway either way i´m still keeping in touch and waiting for my call to arms.:p

If anyone has any info with regard the hold pool please let me know.

Bluebaron

AMEX

23rd Jun 2002, 10:40

Sorry to say but as I was updating my file file with BY a few days ago and having read about this rumour on Pprune, I asked directly to BY. the rumor has become a fact.
Not having a go at CTC guys but remember that about 15 of us had signed contracts and had resigned from previous jobs to join BY,hence why we might sound slightly annoyed.

Good luck anyway

MAX

23rd Jun 2002, 18:28

If this is true then Britannia can stick their job! :mad: Im not giving up a shiny bizjet and top employer for a company that craps on me TWICE!!

To all the CTC boys/girls, good luck. I'll raise my beer glass from the Ibiza poolside as you complete your 20 minute turnaround.:cool:

MAX:cool:

kwimper

23rd Jun 2002, 20:25

......and if it's not??

By the way our minimum turnaround is 60 minutes, but then I thought that you would already know that.

MAX

23rd Jun 2002, 20:57

I am only prepared to be crapped on once.:rolleyes:

As for 20 minutes, subtle use of exageration and a devilish plan to make CTC candidates stumble at interview.:p Thanks for ruining my cunning plan.

MAX:cool:

MAX

30th Jun 2002, 20:37

So did you CTC guys/gals get interviews this week? If so How'd you get on and was it standard Britts fayre?

MAX:cool:

fibod

30th Jun 2002, 21:25

BronzeAge/Bluebaron/AMEX

I may have this wrong, but I don't think these guys will have paid for their own type rating. My understanding of the way the CTC ATP scheme works is that CTC fund the type rating & the airline pays them for it after successful recruitment.

If that is so, you've not lost out to someone with a bigger wallet: just someone who has already done the first part of the type conversion course.

regor

1st Jul 2002, 10:51

fibod - You are correct, initially CTC pay for the cost of the type rating, and are then reimbursed by the client airline. However, the pilots will have paid to complete an MCC course with CTC.

Some of the pilots in the 757 pool have been there for in excess of a year, so while I sympathize with those of you that had been promised a job with Britannia, the CTC 'pool' pilots are equally as deserving.

MAX

1st Jul 2002, 18:27

Im not having a dig so please dont take this the wrong way.

If CTC 757 guys have been waiting a year why didnt they apply to Britts a year ago like everyone else?

Also, correct me if I am wrong, I thought CTC pilots flew on reduced salary for 6 months or so? I had heard in the realm of £1000 a month.

AMEX: Thanks for email. If that is true we shouldnt be worried at all, huh?;)

MAX:cool:

BronzeAge

2nd Jul 2002, 15:32

I was under the impression that the CTC guys initially forked out £6K and are then placed with an airline who pay them £1K/ month for six months.........in effect working for free.

I for one could not possibly forgo my salery for half the year + a training period, therefore Ive been beaten to the job by a First Officer who is prepared to pay for the privilege.

I am in the lucky position of already working on a jet. However my employer has historically paid less than industry average which explains why I applied to Brits.

CTC now supply Britannia, Monarch and easyJet that I know of....if this situation spreads further through the industry then its lower pay and conditions for everbody in the end.

fibod

2nd Jul 2002, 17:07

I see your dilemma BronzeAge. The problem is that you are competing with people on the bottom rung. The CTC scheme is no different, in effect, to the BA cadet entry vs. direct entry schemes.

I think it lasts to the end of type conversion, i.e. line training.

It is not new; it's been going for 7 years and has trained a few hundred pilots. There is a longer list of customer airlines on their website than you mention.

Personally, I think it is a tip-top scheme. The only people loosing out are those churning between airlines such as you. Otherwise, the trainees, CTC and the airline all seem to benefit. And CTC seem to have an excellent quality reputation.

Why are you so keen to work for Brit anyway? It must be the slowest promotion to command in the industry, no variety of types, and the joys of those lovely holiday makers; the perfect passengers! Still, there’s always the benefit of lots of time off in the winter to do the gardening!

;)

BronzeAge

2nd Jul 2002, 19:14

Hi FIBOD,

I,m sure that the academy is great for the cadets and associated airlines but you miss my point.

Cheap labour being placed into the jobs many established pilots aspire to attain can only damage the market.

If there is little pilot movement between companies within this industry then how can existing pay and benifits be improved or (in my case) even maintained!

Britannia also have the advantage of the "Second Officer" salery. Once a low hour ctc cadet finishes six months they're then paid 10 grand less than an F/O!!!!

All the best.

BronzeAge :rolleyes:

MAX

2nd Jul 2002, 21:53

Piperpilot: Everyones circumstances are different. You may very well be able to afford to live in London on £1000/month, others can not.

As for low hour opportunites Britts have recruited low hour guys well before the rumour of CTC pilots was floated. I know of one PPRUNE'R who has been in the hold 3 years!!

Bronzeage: Latest rumour is after interview only a small minority of CTC pilots have made the cut. Im not too sure if those successfull still need to pass a sim ride or even if they will be offered jobs. Maybe 'Mr Bombastic' can enlighten everyone?

I'm going to guess the next step is watch FLIGHT for 757 experienced pilots.

Good luck guys.

MAX:cool:

MAX

3rd Jul 2002, 08:41

This chap has been in the 'Britts' holdpool for 3 years. Not CTC. He/She is still is constant contact with HR and has re-done the whole selection procedure TWICE at their request and still been up to the grade. This pilot deserves a BREAK!

The reason I said London was for two (2) reasons:

1) London is the most expensive. Correct. So if you have limited income (£1000/mth) it make sense to to budget for this city as that is where you may be based. Esp. if you have wife kids etc. Bare in mind Britts dont contribute to relocation costs. Which leeds me to...

2)You aren't guaranteed getting your preffered base. You may bid MAN no.1 and GTW no.10, but still find yourself southbound. My base changed twice before I even started and it still was 'way' down the list.

Britts also made it very clear we had to live within 1hr 30min drive of the airport. So I'm not too sure how your plans would work there.

Just a question? Are you in either holdpool?

:rolleyes:

MAX:cool:

tailscrape

3rd Jul 2002, 09:25

MAX/Bronze Age,

I cannot really get involved, because I was ex CTC, now in another outfit. I do however agree that working for free is not good.....

As to your positions, I suspect that Brits may make you do ot all again....and I bet you both pass again!

Don't let this get you down, and I wouldn't "slag off" anyone or the airline on here (I know you aren't).

MAX, I think you talked about bizjets and Ibiza......... what the hell do you want to swap that for night Dalaman's for???!?!?!?

Piper Pilot,

You don't seem to me to know the full story. Perhaps a little research before going thru the mill with these guys who have done the tests and worn the T Shirt???

Mr Bombastic,

You have gone very quiet on the CTC front. How did you get on??? Did you ace it, or did you BOMBastic out at interview?? (only kidding, I hope you did OK:D )

Regards all.

BronzeAge

3rd Jul 2002, 10:34

Dear piperpilot,

Don't get me wrong I really enjoy my job. Once you have gained some time in the industry you realise just how important things like pay, conditions and lifestyle actually are.

I,m sure that when eventually you leave the financial security of your parents you will see the light.

And as for commuting, due to certain circumstances I do the return drive MCT to BHX three times a week. On top of this pay for a mortgage and digs........pay packet, where did that go?????

All the best

BronzeAge

ChickenHawk

4th Jul 2002, 17:26

13 interviewed, 6 selected, start on 17 Jul :D

AMEX

4th Jul 2002, 19:15

Nice one

Bluebaron

6th Jul 2002, 08:22

Well good luck to the six that start on the 17th, prehaps if they are on line they can enlighten us as to their selection process and there experience level.

I myself am, quite rightly in my opinion, pretty miffed but well what can you do but stay on the line and hold on tight.

Well after 4 years of looking for a job i thought i had finally made it, so close and yet so far. Lets hope the market picks up soon.

I do agree with the comments that CTC damage the job market, however if i was able to pay for a job i would. It´s similar to the Cathey Ban, would you take a job on a shiney new 747 or say "no thanks, i can´t take it due to the union (which i am not a member) ban. Catch 22. I guess maybe BALBA or IPA could put a similar ban on CTC?

Bluebaron

ps if anyway has any inside info on the holdpool i´ll would like to hear it :D

tailscrape

6th Jul 2002, 10:26

Bluebaron,

Don't talk nonsense. If you apply to CTC and get thrown out pre AQC, then it costs you nothing. If you get as far as a place on AQC, i think you can assume that if you perform, you will get a job.

Yes, it costs Six Grand, but then so does the "ASTRAEUS PPRUNE CADET SCHEME". ......... Would you like that banned too?

Now, accept you have been unlucky, or pay the Six Grand like others have.

CTC is not like Cathay, and I am p?ssed at you for suggesting that.

Your comments are not well informed, and I would suggest u reconsider (and perhaps consider removing them) your post.

I understand your disappointment, but don't be rash.

If CTC were so bad for the industry, would the Britannia BALPA Company Council allow these cadets to join??????????? After all, Britannia CC is perhaps the strongets in the business....

Bluebaron

6th Jul 2002, 12:24

Tailscape,

I think we will have to agree to disagree on that point. I am mearly agreeing with Bronseage when he states:

"I,m sure that the academy is great for the cadets and associated airlines but you miss my point.

Cheap labour being placed into the jobs many established pilots aspire to attain can only damage the market.

If there is little pilot movement between companies within this industry then how can existing pay and benifits be improved or (in my case) even maintained! "

The comparison i was making (prehaps misjudged) was that you can end up stuck between a rock and a hard place, does one turn down an offer because it damages the industry, or take it for personal gain. In the case of Cathey Pacific it actully helps the industy, as it would improve pilot contitions, but in CTC´s case, it would, in my view damage it.

Don´t get me wrong if i could afford to work for free for 6 months and pay for a course that i have already completed then i would.

I also wish those people that can afford it (and can complete the selection process ) the best of luck.

Bluebaron

Ps if anyone wants to start a poll outlining the pro´s and cons then go ahead. The results should make interesting reading.;)

tailscrape

6th Jul 2002, 13:18

Fair enough, and I do agree that cheap labour is not a good way to go.

I did CTC and increased debt due to not earning!

What it gives the lines involved though is a pretty much guaranteed product, and the opportunity to offset some training risk involved in employing young, inexperienced pilots.

Good luck to you.

If there is a silver lining in this instance for you, it may be that Brits only took 6, not 15 or so.....

What next? Hold pool or type rated pilot's for them do you reckon??

Fly Star

6th Jul 2002, 14:17

I heard from another source that they were taking 25 people form CTC, including 12 dutch from Cabair...

Well, like Bluebaron I am not very impressed by the latest Britannia move. I was as well on the Supposed "pool" and I have this strange feeling to be sinking now... As I said, I heard from another source that it is a lot more than 6 people who have been selected.
The dutch guys are in a different scheme as far as I know. They were selected ab-initio to do a Frozen ATPL at Cabair, to then enter the CTC scheme to get 6 months on a JET. They had to pay for all that around £60,000... I am not joking because I know some of them working for easyjet.

With Sept 11th, a lot of them were swiming in the pool of CTC, having completed a 757 rating without a job. CTC was probably pretty keen to get them in a flying job. But with those guys paying £ 60k to CTC it was probably easy for CTC to offer a good deal to whichever airline...

I am just trying to understand why all the good jobs (+salaries) are going to people with no experience. I do think it is all about money...

CTC is not helping the business, it is just helping the people that can afford from £6000 to £60,000. That is my point of view anyway.

Happy landings

Bluebaron

6th Jul 2002, 14:47

on another note Britannia have just signed with Bae Systems for a cadet course (part sponsered i think). So if you´re in that market give them a call.;)

cleared24right

6th Jul 2002, 16:02

Hey all,

Fly Star, what do you mean that the guys who were rated on the 75 had paid CTC 60K, you lost me there, i thought they paid them 6K and that the type rating was then given them if they were selected???

Then the usual story of paying them back over so many years blah blah and blah....

Cheers

Sagey

6th Jul 2002, 16:08

Cleared think he meant for the whole thing including Cabair ATPL training costs, well that is how I read the message.

Saw the magic words Cadet scheme, any more details of what you need to apply or is it just that they have signed a contract for the future and it is up to Brits when/if they decide to have scheme.

I do feel very sorry for those in the hold pool, you have all spent lots of money getting so far, and was successfully climbing the ladder only for it to appear that is has been pulled from under you, temporarily. I genuinely hope that Brittania will offer you something soon. I can't really get into the debate of CTC v Hold pool, but just thought I would wish you all luck.

Sagey

ChickenHawk

6th Jul 2002, 17:34

For the record, I am 75 rated with another charter operator who laid pilots off last December and them brought them back on permanent part year contracts 4 months later. That equates to 60% wages for 8 months work through the Summer and laid off in the winter. My interest in Brits/CTC is in obtaining a permanent contract again. I have 600 plus hours on the 75 and 3000 plus hours total. The issue here is that CTC cadets are paid a lot less than a permanent pilot and are therefore more attractive a proposition from the beancounters point of view. Beancounters don't give a tosh about experience they just want the cheapest bums in a right hand seat that they can get. I have no axe to grind with guys from CTC, good luck to you all. However what this all means is a degradation of T&C for right hand seat pilots as a whole which will affect CTC guys and their ilk, in time to come when they lose their ab-initio status.

Fly Star

6th Jul 2002, 18:14

Cleared,

as far as I know there are 2 kinds of CTC "cadet" :
- The "normal" ones with the £6 K deal...
- The Ab-initio ones with the £60 K deal. It is a sort of sponsorship whereby people pay £60 k and get a Frozen ATPL with a british flying school (the school being Cabair at the moment). After Cabair they go to CTC for MCC + type rating on a jet. They are garantied a job for 6 months with a jet operator. Most of the guys on the £60 K deal are dutch because the selections and advertisment for the scheme are (or used to be ?)in The Netherlands.

It is a very expensive deal for the "cadets", as they have to pay a lot of money, but it gets them to nice aircrafts, on good salaries. A lot of those dutch cadets have joined Easyjet like that, because Easyjet works quiet a lot with CTC.

CTC would probably be very keen at the moment to find a job for those "cadets" because of the T & C of the £60 K loan. Apparently, they don't have to pay until they have a jet position for 6 months. Therefore, CTC would try to get a job for those guys at all costs... If you know what I mean.

I got all this information from one of those dutch guys... I haven't checked the contract myself so I can't garanty the truth about all that. All I know for sure, when I did my training, there were a few dutch people on the £60 K deal, and they are all flying now with major british airlines.

If I am wrong, please let me know. I have nothing against anybody and I wish good luck to those who got the job. But all that is not very good for experienced pilots who are trying to get a job with a good airline, as all the (good) jobs are taken by low experience people.

I heard that Monarch would take some of those CTC cadets as well :rolleyes:

Happy landings

MAX

6th Jul 2002, 18:14

Adios Britts. Good luck to all those selected. I could never begrudge anyone a job in these trying times. At least I got a months salary out the company:D You wont be seeing me right hand seat. Holdpool 30-1=29.

MAX:cool:

Constant Speed DU

11th Jul 2002, 09:38

I myself was meant to start with britannia last November. I didn't want to wait. I took out another loan for 6K and went to CTC. I now fly for Easyjet.

Fine, a lot of people may have many more hours than myself and I know how hard it is to find a job! But I think it is wrong to state that, we are cheap labour until you know all of the facts! Yes, I did have to pay 6k initially, but I got half of that back when I was placed with EZY. I know I am on a small wage for six months but this is because, I am theoretically paying back my type rating bond. After my six month initial period, I will not be bonded. If you still think that we are cheap labour, how much did you earn for your first job? Or how much would have been prepared to accept? If you were dedicated in achieving your goal, probably nothing.

On another note, spoke to HR. They are taking people from CTC but only for a temp contract. Apparently they will not be extended. If any of you guys can get the money together to go to CTC, it is worth it. They are more likely in getting you a job than you can ever be. The selection process is free so it's worth doing. Tel: 02380 844 000 speak to Jo Ward.:eek:

SkyGuy

11th Jul 2002, 13:52

Boring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

tailscrape

12th Jul 2002, 08:23

Skyguy.

Your post to Constant Speed's decent info is worthless. If it is so boring, why don't you ****** off elsewhere and be bored.

Constant Speed DU,

You are quite correct. Excellent scheme. I did not pay 6 grand as I got in in 1999, however I echo your points entirely.

I am approaching 1000 hours rapidly on the 757. In about 15/17 months of flying it.

Could I have done that myself? Doubtful!

Go for it guys and the best of luck.

Lazlo

12th Jul 2002, 10:14

Tailscrape,

The Britannia CC are not happy about the six CTC recruits at all. There has been (and still is ongoing) a lot of discussion on this topic as there is concern that this is the thin edge of the wedge in terms of having contract pilots in Britannia. The latest CC newsletter goes into quite some detail in regard to this. The company has given its assurance that this is not a permanent departure from their "normal" recruiting procedures and is merely due to a late decision to hire pilots this year and training constraints due to this years Haj and possible fleet change. If the company starts to show signs that contracting pilots in like this might be a more regular thing than you will see BALPA become much more involved. It is all well and good if the CTC scheme gets you in on the bottom rung, and gets you that all-important first job and experience, but if it means a life of working contracts and the tremendous lack of security that that involves, well it just isn't a career worth having any more. Some people like that kind of lifestyle but most of the people I fly with in Britannia would absolutely hate being a contract pilot. There are so many issues, like pensions, seniority, a change in the industry can see you chucked out in a split second (and lets face it this industry is more knee-jerk prone than most), erosion of pay levels and on and on....

Lazlo

AMEX

12th Jul 2002, 10:43

Start at the bottom PP. You wouldn't be the firts one I can assure you that.

worzel

12th Jul 2002, 11:00

Fly Star

I would be interested to know where you got the info that Monarch would be taking CTC cadets.

To the best of my knowledge they have not taken any for approximately four years. It seems unlikely that a company like Monarch who at the moment ask for 2500 hours and previous jet experience (and they do get it) would go back to CTC.

I hope they do.

worzel

chinchaser

12th Jul 2002, 11:15

Hi All,

Lazlo is quite correct in all that he says with regard to the current position that bY is now in. i recently flew with one of our CC who is involved with this issue and the CC is very much against this move (ctc) but is tolerant because of the company's position with regard to fleet change and the fact that we are streched crew wise on the line.

to the best of my knowledge the normal recruitment cycle will start again "later this year", but this will again be dictated as to projected requirements next summer, let alone the loss of crew's to retraining should the new fleet finally materialise.

Personally I don't like the CTC scheme but as with others I did interview etc to get a slot as any way in is an option, its better than sitting at home watching the letter box every morning!!

Piperpilot how to get the break low hours etc, as i am sure others will echo, who ever works that one out will make a lot of money on the book! It happens when it happens you just have to keep the faith! As for relocating some times there are greater powers that we all have to deal with, marriage is a wonderful thing!!!!!!

regards all

Chinchaser

Turbine1

12th Jul 2002, 11:23

PiperPilot

Why don't you, when you have finished your training come back and then btich about not getting a job for 5 years, because laddie, thats what you can bank on, jesus i know people who more deserving than you that have jumped through the hoops more than once to get that foot on the first rang of the ladder.
you really **** me off.

You will start like everybody esle in this industry at the Frigging bottom, if you are lucky to get that first jet job well good on you, but don't count on it... sonny.

Amex will be up there soon hold the Beer............................

Regeards

tailscrape

12th Jul 2002, 11:32

Lazlo,

I understand if BY take these guys for a few months then bin them, that is a bad thing. If they offer them contracts at the end of it as jmc have done for me, I cannot see where the problem lies.

The reason CTC guys get low pay to begin with is because they are paying back some training bond.

BY will not pay them, I believe they will pay CTC.

These CTC guys have passed a rigorous selection test programme and are deemed good enough to have passed a 757 rating.

So, where is the difference between them and a low hours LOW PAID BY second officer?

I am happy that I did the scheme. I am a full time employee at jmc on a final salary pension scheme. What is so bad about that?

I am not a contract pilot.

I can understand your frustrations, but don't shoot me for them. If you have a problem, take it up with your BALPA plc Chairman or reps.

And before you ask, I am a confirmed BALPA member and am not in this just for myself believe me.

CTC have trained a good few hundred cadets for this scheme. As far as I know, none have been disadvantaged for it.

As for other people being disadvantaged by not being picked...well it's a big world.

I don't think this will be a long term BY ploy. So, I suggest you wait and see.

AMEX

12th Jul 2002, 12:10

As for other people being disadvantaged by not being picked...well it's a big world.

Tailscrape, I and others were picked but by BY, not by CTC so I have been disadvantaged and not because I wasn't good enough (as you seem to imply). I too, like ....These CTC guys have passed a rigorous selection test programme and are deemed good enough to have passed a 757 rating.

I think what you fail to realise is that as long as you are the flavour of the month, it all looks good but let me try to illustrate this using a fictional example that contains some truth.

Let's say you were at the bottom of the JMC list and almost certainly made redundant at the end of October.
You are now qualified on the 757 and with a few hundreds of hours under your belt you would expect to be able to find a job fairly rapidly after your last JMC flight.
Quite rightly so me think but of course assuming you have the hours, how would you feel if you were to remain unemployed for another 6 months or more, simply because Monarch (fiction), would rather get low cost CTC guys than you. As a matter of fact you could remain unemployed forever simply because of such programme.
As I said, you are/were the flavour of the month but once you are going to re enter the market, the unemployed qualified pilots (more than I am) will be there to wish you a warm welcome.
Don't get me wrong this isn't personal at all. I agree that whoever has made it through the CTC selections did well but where I disagree is that you see it as a great opportunity for inexperienced pilots (truly is) whereas I see it as a long term industry damaging scheme.
I hope you won't be in that situation but sooner or later you might find yourself fighting for your job, your benefits and be in a real struggle against your old CTC comrades. Fair ? who said the world was fair ;)

Ppilot

Before your time there was a system where pilot such as Turbine1 could post as much as they like. One day the bigr Gret new server came along and the post were lost (which is what you use to judge people's ability to comment about your useless, misinformed, naive, posts).
As the man said, what don't you p*** off

tailscrape

12th Jul 2002, 13:23

AMEX,

I am BOTTOM of the list at jmc. So, you have guessed correctly. However, I don't think things are that bad. There's DHL and other opportunities too.

I was not implying you are not good enough. It is a commercial decision. Have you a type rating? I don't know. These CTC guys do. That is what I am talking about. Them, NOT YOU!

I am not talking about being flavour of the month. I am talking reality.

So, please don't preach my post to me. I know what I am on about.

You may as well expect to apply again to Britannia from what I hear. It is a big, tough world. sept 11 robbed you of your seat, but that is not my fault. Unfortunately I cannot be blamed for that.

If jmc lay me off in Oct, I will take my chances. the likelihood is I will hopefully have something else arranged anyhow.

So, just calm down. I feel for you in your position. However as you know airlines are not in it for favours...........

The facts of the situation may not appeal to your taste. That however is life. I have had blows too.

Sorry to have to disagree.

GonvilleBromhead

12th Jul 2002, 14:01

Oh by Christ, piperpilot's off again.....must admit, son, you are good value for entertainment...Turbine1, you've gotta larf though....comical...

Bucking Bronco

12th Jul 2002, 16:14

I would be pretty p****d too if I was in the pool at Britannia and I heard CTC guys were being queue jumped to the front. Nothing against any CTC cadets but surely this is a blatant case of hiring on the cheap. Not being paid for 6 months to cover their type rating costs and no definate job offer at the end of the 6 months.

It all smacks of summer working only contracts in the future and the beneficiaries are the moonlighters at CTC and the airlines who are hiring on the cheap. I hope the Britannia CC vigorously contest this shameless exploitation.

PiperPilot;- Are you spouting your usual nonsense again ? You just don't learn do you ?

Fly Star

12th Jul 2002, 16:42

worzel

I heard this info from a very unreliable source... That is all I can say. Regardless what Monarch or other airlines are planning to do, it seems that the CTC scheme is very popular for the moment.

Concerning the debate about the quality of the CTC cadets, I know some of them, and they were not the best students you could imagine during the different exams for the frozen ATPL. I know a particular one, who had to go on a stress management course to be able to complete all the groundschool... He is now flying for GO (!!!!).

I am not saying that all cadets from CTC are not good, I am just saying that some of them who managed to get through to very good jobs, deserved it probably less than others who are still unemployed. But the one at CTC were commited to bigger amount of money (up to £60K), so they got the jobs...
I do think that the CTC scheme is successfull because CTC is extremely motivated to find a job for the cadets they trained. There is a lot of money involved.
They are all trained to good standards, therefore airlines are reasonably happy to employ them. But I still think that a 200 h experienced pilot will not be as safe and efficicent than someone with 3000 h.

I hope that the best jobs, will go back to the people who have worked up their way up the ladder...

Good luck to you all

Happy landings.

Ennie

12th Jul 2002, 17:32

It seems to me that the people who bad mouth the CTC scheme are the jelous narrow minded individuals who didn't get on.

I know lots of people who have done the scheme, and 4 of them who are going to Britannia in the next few weeks and fair play to them. I know for a fact that some of them had to work VERY hard to get the CPL/IR and that some of them were instructors etc for at least 2 years before hand travelling long distances just to build hours.

I think it's an excellent scheme, I tried to get on but didn't, and those of you who bad mouth it would be praising it - if you had been succesful. So do us all a favour and be happy for the people who have got on now, because as you know it's no picnic what they are about to do.

Bucking Bronco

12th Jul 2002, 18:34

I wouldn't say jealous as I was fortunate enough to be sponsored from the outset. I am merely stating that I am unhappy with recent developments such as the CTC scheme (wrt low starting wages and temporary contracts) and Ryanair making applicants pay a fee to get their application read.

By the nature of my current position I am fortunate enough to fly with people who have been in the game for over 30 years benefitted from the golden age of flying. They all drive nice cars, send their children to public school and live in big houses with swimming pools. I very much doubt that we (pilots at the begining of our careers) will be able to enjoy such a salubrious lifestyle and believe that we should not prostitute ourselves in order to live the dream lest it becomes a nightmare. Instead we should hold our heads high and demand better pay and conditions. N'est pas?

Cheers ;)

Lazlo

12th Jul 2002, 20:17

Tailscrape,

Whoah hold on!!! I was merely replying to your comment:

"If CTC were so bad for the industry, would the Britannia BALPA Company Council allow these cadets to join??????????? After all, Britannia CC is perhaps the strongets in the business...."

Yes we have strong representation in BALPA but this is largely due to the fact that for the past few years the CC has not taken a confrontational approach to the management and have elected to work with them, and the results have been encouraging. Not all would agree but I am happy. The CC cannot tell the company who to hire and who not to but if they could you can be sure that CTC cadets would never join Britannia.

I am not saying that they are not qualified or good enough, not at all. You are right they have passed rigorous tests etc (although even so only 6 out of 13 passed Britannia's recruitment). But at the end of the day they work for CTC not Britannia and that is where the problem lies. You were lucky that you were taken on after six months with JMC. I'm pleased for you. However, what we are all concerned about is that the charter airlines might start hiring pilots on contracts for the summer and laying off in the winter. That isn't good for any pilots but that is what the beancounters would love to do. Britannia Second Officers are not paid as badly as you say especially if you consider that they are part of the final salary pension scheme from day one, not six months down the line (and who knows six months later they may have decided to close the scheme to new entrants and then you've REALLY lost out huge).

Furthermore, what is probably the thing that bothers me the most is the fact that the pilots who were in the holding pool have been "bumped" for these CTC cadets and I just think that that is plain wrong. Many of these people are still waiting in the wings for a job and are ready to start in a moment's notice. Some are even working for Britannia as cabin crew at the moment. There is no financial or time advantage for Britannia just because the CTC people have a type rating because they will still have to do the Britannia course as that is a CAA requirement. The only reason that CTC cadets were chosen over the people in the hold pool (some of whom left other flying jobs keep in mind) is that they are expendable - if another industry crisis happens they can be rid of easily. Maybe you like that but it doesn't sit well with me.

Lazlo

tailscrape

13th Jul 2002, 07:34

Lazlo,

Of course I don't like what you suggest, as it will affect me if it happens.

What I am saying is that these guys are obviously good enough ,so give em a chance. Hope they get taken on permanently.

I doubt they will have to do a Britannia course...probably a day or two warm up and then a 2 day sim check.

Then line training.

That is quicker than a full course by miles.

AMEX

13th Jul 2002, 12:19

Fact: contracts of employment had been signed and sent back to BY.
Fact: People had resigned from their previous jobs.
Fact: Bases had been allocated.

Now with the CTCs (I stress again this isn't personal, there nothing those guys can do about it) jumping the queue, I find it quite disturbing.
Tailscrape, I understand you come from a cut throat industry so perhaps this is the norm and perhaps the airline industry should get used to it but this a first for BY. In my book I have been undercut which isn't right because if it becomes standard practice, the likelyhood that you, me and others will find ourselves in the receiving end again and again will become a certitude.
In my opinion, we, pilots are responsible for the industry we are in. We are the ones who create this state of affair so everytime we let the standards go a little, it's our career we are just helping to be made more difficult.
I am lucky enough to have found a job just after September and I know what the word patience means but if you want to talk aviation career with its ups and downs, relocation, dodgy airlines, good ones, redundancy, jobs found in 24hours and god knows what else...then you have found your man. Down the pub and I'll tell you all about it....;)

Good luck to all involved (all of us me think)

tailscrape

13th Jul 2002, 13:23

AMEX,

I can sympathise with you, and I know that you feel hard done by. I can appreciate that, and I see why you guys feel betrayed.

What I was saying is don't shoot the CTC cadets. It is hardly their fault.

Remember everyone, that many airlines have used CTC before and the pilot's are not contractors. It is my opinion that these CTC guys will get BY contracts at the end of the 6 months.

That doesn't help you, but it is no different to the way the scheme has ever been.

Your beef should be with BY (as I know it is), not with CTC cadets. After all, you would have more than likely got a place with CTC if you wanted one.

However, there is the STG6000 argument etc etc....

Good luck AMEX, I hope things work out for you in your job you are in now.

AMEX

13th Jul 2002, 20:23

Thanks Tailscrape, we have obviously two different experiences and since we are both intelligent enough, we recognise this.

Incidentally, I have applied to the CTC scheme in October and was invited to stage 1. I turned it down, thinking I should be able to get a flying job without their help. I guess I am lucky enough to have the kind of experience that gets me out of situation like this pretty quickly so I have no regret (of course it is very possible that I would have failed the selection process).

(Not related to this thread but just to show what are me beliefs)
More recently, a friend of mine has asked me to get a 737 rating with a 99% garanteed job in the end.
I turned it down too. Not being arrogant but I am sure there are lots of companies out there (about 95% of them), employing pilots who joined wihtout a type on their licence but were given one with no other commitment than the standard 2-3 years bond. I feel there is no reason why I should do otherwise.
Call me stubborn but that's how I see things and will try my best to stand by it.

Bye for now

Mr Bombastic

14th Jul 2002, 21:28

Tailscrape ....I see you are fighting a difficult battle for CTC.
Thanks for your concern, & sorry for not getting back to you earlier. Mail me regarding the outcome if you like to know.

chinchaser

16th Jul 2002, 07:36

Guys for what its worth, i must agree with a lot of the sentiments about the CTC guys. Its thier fortune that they are in the right place at the right time when circumstances have smiled on them, for those still waiting ,at least that is another half dozen out of the way for the next job.

The way it appears at the minute from inside the cage is the usual type of firefighting that follows any quick reaction to the market. Last September Brit was recruiting 48 pilots for this summer, then all of a sudden we don't need them, the program has contracted to a small degree and we are suddenly overcrewed(!) at the start of the season,( all beit too many P1 and not enoughP2). Then our european masters ,it seems, finally give the go ahead to future plans, (Farnborough is the rumuor for any announcemnent fleet wise for BY or Prussag airline group.)

Now we have a situation where we lose a large chunk of trainers to gain experienc on a new type(s), a short period to train new P2's in and the demands of the next Hadj contract to fulfill in Jan - March. Therefore the CTC guys and girls can be on line with min line training as they only need to convert to Brit SOP's etc which are now increasingly Boeing standard.

They are fortunate, but as I understand it, this isn't the way ahead for Brit as far as standard practice is concerned. In house training and recruitment is still prefered and will happen again. Don't get me wrong the right person fits into Bal not the one with the biggest wallet. It is frustarting,4 years ago ,had I been able to afford the pc, not easy as a FI, I would have made the same comments, it is frustrating and soul destroying but those on the line and BALPA are on your side, I certainly have yet to hear support for this situation.

I believe things will settle down to the more normal cycle of recruitment and training in the next 12 months depending on what is happening to the fleet, but rest assured,no matter how much flexible working is about (overtime flying) the company has to recruit. Hang in there and keep the faith but if a seat offers itself get in the air, its better to have a choice than be watching the letter box!

regards

Chin.

Bluebaron

21st Jul 2002, 13:57

Well received a letter from them the other day. Nothing definate but it´s nice to know that they are keeping in touch with us.

Basically stated that they are taking on some contract guys for the summer and will let us know when they have a better idea regards winter recruitment.

I hope it´s not too long as i´m totally skint now and am more than ready to ¨jump into the seat´.

thanks for the 'nside news chaps, keep it coming.

Bluebaron ;)

Bluebaron

30th Jul 2002, 11:40

all gone a bit quiet around here?

BB

Katanaman

31st Jul 2002, 07:45

Heard that the movement of training cpts towards the end of the year is internal only. The source was very reliable and stated that drawing from the hold pool this side of xmas was very unlikely.

I can see how the people from CTC are causing the people in the pool who got so bloody close to a job, only to be disappointed at the last minute - I suppose sadly that’s aviation.

Alot of people has there plans change after Sept 11th, you guys / girls were just caught up in the mess at a stage when things looked fantastic.

My brother is one of pool pilots and we both now instruct to keep in the system.

Good luck for the future.