USA PPL costs - looking for a no-frills school

[topperdoggle]

Hi all, first post. :)

Like all of you I guess, it's my dream to obtain a PPL. Here in Israel, it costs on average 75,000 shekels (around $20,000). Like many people, I want to do it in the USA where I understand it's more cost-effective due to competition and lower costs.

This year, the holidays here fall in such a way that there are only 9 working days in the 4.5 weeks between 11th September and 5th October. I smell an opportunity to come to the USA... :)

I have a couple of American friends who are jet pilots, they are enthusiastic for me to learn, and they put me in touch with a school just outside Los Angeles, CA. I spoke to the school, they sound very sleek and professional, but I think the prices are high, so I guess I'm going to have to look elsewhere. It's probably more a school for someone who can pay a premium. I'm the type of person who's a self-learner, and I don't need to be wrapped in cotton wool or spoonfed, but of course I need the support. Like every other chump I have just enough knowledge to be dangerous, I am scientifically-minded, and I aim to complete the PPL within 45 hours...

The estimate was based on 55 hours:

Aircraft Rental, 172SP $160 52.5 hours = $8,400
Redbird LD Simulator $400/mo Unlimited
Dual Flight Instruction $75 42.5 hours = $3,188
Ground Instruction $75 20.0 = $1,500
Chief Flight Instructor $85 5 hours = $425
Sub-Total Variable Costs: $14,313

Cessna Ground Instruction Kit $350
Pilot's Supplies; charts, etc. $200
Aviation Medical $150
Private Pilot Written Exam $150
Private Pilot Checkride Fee $600
Sub-total Fixed Costs: $1,450

Estimated Total Cost - 55 hours to completion $15,763

Finally, some questions:
1) Is the estimate on the high side as I suspect?
2) If so, what would be regarded as more realistic / down-to-earth prices, in terms of hourly rates, given that I'm not looking (or able) to pay top dollar to be pampered / go to a "premium" school.
3) Most things above are musts, but is there anything there I don't need or that is over-provisioned, not in the hourly rates, but in the number of hours? I would aim to start the course largely prepared for the ground exams, and I believe that the minimum number of hours with an instructor is 20 (not saying I won't need more but still...).
4) Can anyone recommend a school in the USA that fits this bill? Down-to-earth, no-frills, but safe, expert, professional, friendly tuition? (If it's located in an area with a good nightlife, that's a bonus... ;))

Thanks in advance for your input, hope to participate more here in the future!

[worldpilot]

With that amount of money you should be able to attain an FAA PPL license.


Check out http://www.sunstateaviation.com/private-pilot-training/ in Kissimmee, Florida.


WP

[RatherBeFlying]

The Canadian dollar is now down to 76 cents US; so one quarter off US prices including accommodation and rental cars (hint: don't rent at the International Airport).

Springbank airport is conveniently located just West of Calgary and offers several training operators including Calgary Flying Club.

The mountains, Banff and Lake Louise are nearby along with glider clubs.

September and early October are lovely times to fly and hike out here.

Much less visa and Homeland security hoops to jump through.

[Gentoo]

I doubt you will want to spend much time enjoying the nightlife if you plan to complete the course. When you are not learning you will probably want to be resting (which, a neuroscientist would suggest is also learning).

[topperdoggle]

worldpilot, I skimmed the link. Ideally I'd learn in a 172 non-glass, they have a 162, and the prices seem a little high. But I'll give them a call anyway, get the vibe.

RatherBeFlying, the Canada thing is intriguing, and I'm embarrassed to say I hadn't considered it up until now. I'm a massive Rush fan, so it's all good. I guess it also being ICAO, it would be the same for me to do what I need when I get back to Israel and want to get the Israeli licence. The relative lack of visa / security hoops is relatively appealing, although I have nothing to hide.

Gentoo, you make perfect sense. But let a man dream! ;)

Anyone else with Canada (or any) recommendations, bring it on! :D

[RatherBeFlying]

Flight schools taking international students can inform you on visa requirements and timelines for visa processing.

You may already be late to get a US visa in time.

You would do well to check with the Israeli CAA on what they need for license conversion. Last I heard the airspace is tightly constricted and may require significant additional instruction before getting licensed there.

There's quite a number of Brits who come to North America (among other locations) for flying vacations. Costs, airspace and officialdom being the motivators.

[topperdoggle]

I'm told that the US embassy wait for a visa is a week on average, so I'm okay there.

You're right about the Israeli airspace - Controlled VFR (CVFR) (http://ivao.org.il/pilots/guidelines/cvfr-n) explains more.

But it will still be cheaper (and an experience) to learn outside...

[topperdoggle]

As you'll see in my first post, I've been round the houses looking for the right school.

Eventually Jim at Arizona Aero-Tech (great guy, but they don't issue I-20s) recommended me to Tailwheels Etc. I've just had a great conversation with them, reassuring considering their "accelerated" marketing. I asked if it would be a problem for me to do the PPL over 21 or 28 days rather than the 14-16 they advertise, and they said it's fine, no financial impact either way. They're Part 141, which I understand to be a good thing. They have Cessna 150s and 152s. They do ask for $1000 non-refundable, then half the $9,995 on starting, and the balance at the end. Everyone on these forums always says NEVER DO THAT, but a lot of people also seem to be content with their offering so I'm confused.

Reviews online are mixed - does anyone have first-hand experience of the place, and would like to share?

[alland2012]

I know Sunstate Aviation personally due to arenting aircraft from them, as a flight school they are very good, very friendly operation and have a lot of overseas students passing through the school so know all the ins and outs regarding TSA clearance Ect.

There are quite a few flight schools in Florida who cater for overseas students but as with most things in life you only get what you pay for, I'm not saying cheap is bad but just getting the ticket is only the beginning, you want a good solid base from which to carry on learning to make you a good safe pilot

Good Luck with achieving your goal

PS. I'm over in central Florida near Orlando from 10 August until end of September, if you need to have someone take you round the local flight schools or maybe you just want come along and fly with me, please feel free to drop me a PM

[WhiskeyPapa]

I think you should be able to get it done for something on the order of $10-12,000, especially if you avoid glass cockpits. However, one thing I like about the quote you got is that they assume it will take more hours than the minimum required--which suggests they really plan to train you. I would recommend you join AOPA (aopa.org) & go on to the Member Forums. You will get an enormous amount of advice including from active CFIs. You can also ask for recommendations about any schools might be thinking of. FWIW Sunstate hasn't gotten the best reviews (viewed as a pilot mill), but I have no personal experience of the school, so am really quoting hearsay. I recommend you get the written test and Medical out of the way before beginning. You can use an online school (like King or Sporty's) for test preparation and sign off for the exam. Good luck! Have fun!

[dera]

The problem with non-US residents looking for no-frills schools is, that to sponsor the visa, school has to be Part 141, so you have to pay for the frills anyway :)

Cheapest PPL in the US, but not legal(p61, no visa-route). Budget around 5000USD plus living expenses for 2 weeks.

Part 141's tend to sell stuff like 20 hours of "ground training" etc which, if you are a self learner (and actually learn that way), is a waste of time and money.

[Rhino25782]

I did my PPL in the US some time ago - although I did the EASA (European PPL), which some schools offer, so some variation here.

But I find elements of the pricing scheme you quote worth discussing:

Aircraft Rental: A 172SP certainly is a very nice airplane. I like to fly it now that I have my PPL. While learning, it's a bit overkill IMHO. The rates for a simple trainer such as a C152 (still love to fly them!) should be much lower than $160. I believe i paid $90/hour wet + instructor.

Simulator for $400? Really? It's not required. Could be nice, but certainly not the "no frills" category you're asking for. I've never touched a simulator.

Ground Instruction: If you are a self learner, as you write, you may want to do all ground learning based on the books. It's what I did (EASA. Not sure if that is legallly possible in FAA-land). By all means, ask your flight instructor about things you're unclear with - but IMHO, no need to formal ground training. It may be the case, though, that the briefing and debriefing you do with your FI is billed at ground school rates - which I consider fair, if that is known to you beforehand.

What in the world is a Cessna Ground Instruction Kit? Never had that. Don't think it's required...

Good luck!

[worldpilot]

Another recommendation from me will be Paragon Flight ( http://paragonflight.com ) located at Page Field airport (KFMY), Fort Myers, Florida.


I rented with them and I must say that I left with very good impression. They seem to have a lot of experience handling international clients.


WP

[RatherBeFlying]

Examination of pprune archives will yield a number of students paying full course fees up front only to see the flight school go bankrupt and very seldom get any money on deposit back.

[gooneydog]

Victoria Flying Club has a good rep if you still want the exchange bennie it is a non profit school.by design

Vancouver Island is beautiful too

[MarkerInbound]

The Cessna Ground School kit is a written prep and lesson plan package. Not required unless the school 141 syllabus says "We're going to use the Cessna Ground School program." Schools do that because they can hand it to the FAA and say, "This is the program we're going to use" instead of developing their own.

You can knock out a couple hours of the required 3 hours of hood time and get a lot more done in a sim. The school's syllabus will say how much sim time can count towards the total time required. At $160 an hour you're coming out ahead if they count more than 3 hours v. paying for a plane. But if they're added that above and beyond the required time in an airplane it's just a money maker for them.

[Booglebox]

Sunstate at KISM are good but Treasure Coast Flight Training (http://fl-flight.com) at KSUA are fantastic.
(no commercial relationship - just a happy customer!)

[topperdoggle]

Shame their website's completely broken (I tried four links, none worked).

Anyway, I'm happy you bumped my thread - I'm going to learn with Tailwheels Etc in Lakeland FL. Deposit paid, visa and TSA process pretty far along...

:D

[beapilot]

Shame their website's completely broken (I tried four links, none worked).

Anyway, I'm happy you bumped my thread - I'm going to learn with Tailwheels Etc in Lakeland FL. Deposit paid, visa and TSA process pretty far along...

:D

Hi topperdoggle (http://www.pprune.org/members/448712-topperdoggle), May I ask how was your experience with Tailwheels? Have you obtained a PPL within 14 days? I want to know more about the details of accelerated PPL. Many thanks!!!

[creweite]

Aviation Pilot Academy of Hollywood is advertising a PPL for $5,999.00
Bob Diaz is the owner, and the business is a new start up. Did my biennial with him .


blank (http://www.apaflightschool.com/)

[Tinstaafl]

A consideration - and a limitiation - of Pt 141 training is that the school *must* conduct the training strictly i.a.w. the approved Pt 141 syllabus. A school's pt 141 syllabus is approved by the FAA as a direct replacement for the regular pt61 training. It can include a reduction in total training time up to whatever amount is allowed under 14 CFR Part 141. No pt 141 syllabus is necessarily the same. It's all about getting the FAA to approve that school's own replacement for Pt 61 training, providing at least equivalent competency for the various licences & ratings.

If the school's syllabus says xyz ground training over 'x' hours will be used, then that is the one that must be used, for that period of time. Doesn't mean that you can't also self study from other sources but you still must do the specified amount & type of training i.a.w. the approved pt 141 syllabus.

Similarly the flight training. If their syllabus specifies a particular aircraft type (or even a specific airframe) then that's what must be used. If the syllabus specifies 'A' must be taught before 'B', then that's what has to happen - even if the weather is more suitable for 'B' that day. The syllabus will specify particular nav routes etc so you can't just have a navex to somewhere on a whim. Smart schools write their syllabi to give as much flexibility as possible subject to the FAA approving it, but still have to adhere to whatever is approved.

[alland2012]

Hi topperdoggle (http://www.pprune.org/members/448712-topperdoggle), May I ask how was your experience with Tailwheels? Have you obtained a PPL within 14 days? I want to know more about the details of accelerated PPL. Many thanks!!!

As of a couple of months back Tailwheels is no more ...

John Amundsen his Son Jonathan who owned and ran the business had a bust up went their seperate ways and the company was taken over by Internatioal Aero Academy, John is still working there as a Flight Instructor.

Same location at Lakeland KLAL same aircraft, but hopefully better organised.

[beapilot]

As of a couple of months back Tailwheels is no more ...

John Amundsen his Son Jonathan who owned and ran the business had a bust up went their seperate ways and the company was taken over by Internatioal Aero Academy, John is still working there as a Flight Instructor.

Same location at Lakeland KLAL same aircraft, but hopefully better organised.



Is there anyone who went through the accelerated ppl course. I want to know your experience. Thank you so much inadvance.

[A and C]

My best advice about training in the USA would be to get away from the usual suspects in Florida and the west coast, these people are set up to take advantage of the high prices outside the USA and are located in the more attractive parts of the USA and these places have a higher cost of living. I did my FAA CPL/IR in Detroit, defiantly not the trendy part of the USA but I got good training, I was the only non American in the place, low accommodation costs with the cheaper cost of living was reflected in the prices charged for the flying.

[Ebbie 2003]

The myth of the cheapie US PPL continues.

Yes, the bare costs are lower compared with most places in Europe etc. but factor in the international flights, the accommodation etc. and the saving is negligible.

The benefit of the US option is the weather - uninterrupted flying and that one is away from one's normal environment.

This intensive training means that one is not doing the two steps forward and one step back thing driven by weather and other delays as normal life gets in the way.

Most places with good weather in the US will get you done in four to six weeks - even me when did mine at 50.

[topperdoggle]

Hi topperdoggle (http://www.pprune.org/members/448712-topperdoggle), May I ask how was your experience with Tailwheels? Have you obtained a PPL within 14 days? I want to know more about the details of accelerated PPL. Many thanks!!!

Well, it's kind of underwhelming. Firstly, nobody told me that due to the storms in Florida in September, I'd get in under half the flying I wanted to. Secondly, nobody told me that my instructor would be a kid (no problem with that), who just got frustrated with me when I barely heard the stall buzzer and didn't immediately get power-on stalls right. I know the fit of the instructor is important, and when I mentioned it, someone there (don't remember who, not the big cheese), told me the instructor was good and I should carry on with him.

So after four days, I packed it in, partied with friends in Miami, and went home.

More here (https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/power-on-stalls-confidence-zero-cant-feel-them-or-hear-horn.85950/).