Commercial flying and job prospects

[davew1]

Hi all,

I completed my PPL almost a year ago now and really enjoying flying. Lately I have been considering a career change and thought maybe flying for a living could be the answer. I'm 36 at the moment so reckon I would be 38ish by the time I completed training. I'm just not too sure how employable I would be at that age, and also what the job market would be like/ is like right now? I realise there's alot of competing for places etc.

Any comments or advice would be great.

Blue skies.

P.s apologies if this has been asked to death already

[Genghis the Engineer]

http://www.pprune.org/professional-pilot-training-includes-ground-studies/420877-perpetual-am-i-too-old-thread.html

only eleven pages of it!

G

[fwjc]

Did pretty much what you're suggesting, at a similar age. Tbh I wouldn't recommend anybody go into commercial aviation anymore. While there are good jobs out there, it's true, for the most part it's pretty rubbish. Finding a job is a combination of a lot of luck, a lot of money, and timing. And that job, when you get it, often as not is nowhere near the utopia you'd think. You're permanently knackered, under pressure and missing your family. As I said at the start, there are occasional jobs where the pay, conditions, environment and work-life balance are okay, but these are as rare as rocking horse poop, and bloody hard to get into.
I recommend carrying on with PPL flying, expand your skills with ratings such as Night, Aerobatics, IR(R) etc. Then maybe consider instructing as a part time pursuit. You'll never be able to pay a mortgage as an instructor, but you can earn pocket money and it's very rewarding from a personal perspective.

[ETOPS]

I'm 36 at the moment

And the majority of CTC graduates are around 23 years old - and there's a few hundred a year all looking for jobs as well.

fwjc has it :sad:

[AdamFrisch]

Keep flying. Channel your skills and energy towards a business that can eventually afford you a nice aircraft to use for business/pleasure would be my recommendation. Much better prospects than trying to find a career as a working pilot.

[MrAverage]

ditto to fwjc.


Adam!


The Commander was started last week!

[davew1]

Thanks for the replies

[A and C]

I could not recommend getting into aviation in any form at your age as the rewards are not appropriate to the effort and investment required to get the licences and qualifications.

The whole thing started going down hill when back in the early 90's the rich kids started to get mummy & daddy to pay for type ratings, the bean counters copped on to this and started charging for type ratings and now for line training.

The engineering side of the business is getting as bad but the rewards are very much lower with one well known defense contractor paying skilled but unlicensed aircraft mechanics IRO £21k per year ( I the south of the UK that income would have to be suplimented by Govenment income support for a family man !).

Judging from what my solicitor is charging me for the very slow and lackluster house move legal work I would advise moving into a so called professon that has a closed shop run by a professonal body to protect your income. This can more than pay for your pleasure flying.

[The Old Fat One]

Keep flying. Channel your skills and energy towards a business that can eventually afford you a nice aircraft to use for business/pleasure would be my recommendation. Much better prospects than trying to find a career as a working pilot.

Pretty much the perfect answer IMO.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that A&C is a bit overly negative about the state of the industry, but it does depend upon where you look.

I did a CPL in my 30s, and use it regularly, as a mixture of instructor, ferry pilot and test pilot: although far more often than as a pilot I use the knowledge in other things I do . On the other hand, so far (never say never!) I've not worked as a full time role as a professional pilot, nor see that happening any time soon.

I've no idea what your existing qualifications and skills are Dave, but I'd venture an inspired guess that they are potentially useable somewhere in the aircraft industry. What presumably you don't presently have is significant knowledge of the professional side of aviation: a PPL is a start there and depending upon where you might go, commercial and instructing qualifications can add to that usefully.


So, whilst aspiring to be a full time professional pilot isn't out of court - and if that's what you really want to do, frankly, go for it - there are all sorts of other jobs in aviation which can combine flying knowledge and other professional skills you might have. And if you are in the right place, and have a professional licence, you might be surprised what comes along on the side.


Of course, what other people have said is also true - just try and make lots of money doing something else, then spend it on flying! That clearly works for lots of other people.

G

[Pace]

Slightly different angle I was chatting to a friend about this subject and that is we are in the service industry.

You are as good as your last flight and have nothing to show for it if anything goes wrong.

There is always the medical hanging over your head? One day you walk in a pilot and come out an ex pilot.

People start businesses and watch them grow! They have something tangible an investment, something which they can sell or will carry on giving them an income into retirement years.

Flying? Your as good as your last flight. Nothing to show, nothing to sell or give an income into your retirement and if unlucky you could loose it all in the AMEs office.

I too fly professionally in private jets but I had to recently take on a legal consultant who charged £450 an hour and can carry on being that legal consultant into his 70s
He is a professional too but makes in an hour more than I do in a day :ugh:and he does it five days a week

Don't get me wrong I have some great memories ferrying jets around the world and flying customers all over Europe but it means being very ungrounded, waking up in hotels and not even knowing which country your in. Sometimes I hanker to going back to single piston flying for fun on a sunny day

By the way it is a great skirt puller especially in some of these distant east European countries ;)

Pace

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Are you creative? Flying a jet transport is demanding, but it isn't creative and I know a few who have gone that route and regretted not being able to stretch the creative side of their natures. Most demanding careers have a strongly creative element, especially in business.

The upside is that when you walk away from the aeroplane, the job's done. Until the next flight. Most demanding careers aren't like that - you live them (even if not actively engaged in them when not at work) 24/7. That can be stressful for some.

[Hyph]

Think of the money!

What do you do to earn a crust davew1? How much do you think you will be earning in 10 years time? Do a ten-year net income projection based on sensible numbers starting from today.

With me so far?

Now... how much will it cost you to earn your ATPL? Tot up all those costs.
How long will it take you to get your ticket? At least a year full time.
Best case, you get a job immediately upon graduation. But do you need to pay for a type-rating? Better add that in too.
You'll be starting at the bottom rung of the aviation ladder in perhaps 18-months from now, how much do you think your likely salary will be?
When do you think you'll get a command upgrade?

Now do another 10-year net income projection using these numbers. You can add in a little extra every year for pay-rises (ha!) and factor in that command upgrade and the additional pay that will bring. This is a best case scenario.

Compare to the number you first thought of. Terrified? Or happy?

[Baikonour]

Just a post to agree with Genghis and put a slightly more positive spin on this.

The OP did not mention ATPL or CAT flying, which everyone seems to assume he meant.

I would say that he should keep flying, do some more research and find out which part of the overall aviation industry he is interested in.
There are many alternatives to managing systems at the sharp end of an aluminium tube... from instruction to biz jets, with fish spotting in the Mexican gulf, cattle herding in Australia, medevac, calibration flying, aerial work, air taxis (and turboprop jollies in Indonesia...) in between and many more - many of which will be on Pprune somewhere.

The aviation industry is no better or worse a place to make your living than any other - if you are good at what you do and enjoy doing it, you should be able to enjoy a decent lifestyle. Compared to many other industries, it is a growth industry and there is a fair amount of money slushing around the system.

So, keep flying, grow your experience and qualifications and find out more about the various areas within the industry. Don't get hung up on a flying-only job (which, as mentioned above, can make you into a one-trick pony...), but look for something where flying is a part but not all. And, like Genghis says, you probably already have some skills which can be transferred to the industry. Age is not a hindrance but you should try to get something out of your existing experience.

Having said that, to repeat what the others have said, a CPL or ATPL by itself is unlikely to be a quick ticket to riches and fame...

B.

[davew1]

Thanks for all the comments and advice guys. Much appreciated. This thread has given me a few things to think about and a couple options to consider. My ultimate goal would be to gain an ATPL and fly for a Living. But I think, as some replies have said, I will do a bit more research before taking the plunge.

In the meantime I'll continue to enjoy my flying, visiting new places and meeting new people.

Thanks

[Unusual Attitude]

I was in a very similar situation 15 years or so ago, went off and did my ATPLS and CPL just as 9/11 happened and the industry took a nose dive.

Went back to my old well paid profession allowing me to enjoy flying all sorts of weird and wonderful types and now find myself doing this for fun!

2T0vTFgWVcQ

Wouldn't swap it for commercial flying that's for sure!!! Pity it doesn't pay though....maybe one day :(

[fwjc]

I should also clarify - I have been paid to fly, commercially (not CAT) pretty much since I got my tickets. So I'm not bitter about the struggle to find a job because I was fortunate or lucky enough to find one.

But lucky for me means I'm still building up debt because my incomes, along with current debts, means I'm actually down by a not inconsiderable amount per month on living costs, and that means I'm in a continuous downward spiral. And yes, I really am lucky to be in this position. I expect to be like this for a few more years before I reach break-even, and a few more years after that to have enough seniority to be able to have some kind of work-life balance.

Or I can back out of the industry and go back to earning more money, being with my family and friends, and have more freedom and time to go and do proper fun flying. Having put so much into this, it's a difficult decision to make.

Think about what decision you would make, and whether you'd feel the same if you'd already invested all of that time and effort into passing the tests.

[S-Works]

Its a crap job in a crap industry that takes money from the gullible and promises the earth to put it bluntly.

Save your money, use it to go flying to places that YOU want to go to on YOUR schedule. A nice aircraft etc.

Everyone has the same dream, "I love flying, I would love to be paid to fly as it would be living the dream". If you are lucky enough to actually get a job, which at your age is not exactly in the high percentage of chances, it will be as a result of getting your self hopelessly in debt and never being able to earn enough to pay it back. You will then be on other peoples budgets and timescales with a life thats not your own.

The airlines want the young and gullible who will pay to fly and follow the SOP's. The GA sector is constantly shrinking and the jobs are rare pickings. That leaves Instructing which is one of the worst paid jobs going for one of the highest skill sets in aviation. While its used as stepping stone to other things its always going to be devalued.

All turning a hobby into a profession does is ruin a good hobby!!

And before you think I am saying this because I am bitter at not having gotten a job, I am a Line pilot with a secondary job as Head of Training of an ATO with over 8,000hrs in the job with 15 years experience and I have never had to pay for a rating and not to mention being an Examiner and LAA coach and test pilot......

Beware a lot of the answers you get on here as they will come from those in the same position as you and so projecting the positive in order to convince themselves they have done the right thing. Or from those with well paid jobs doing stuff on the side as "commercial pilots" in order to have PPL club bragging rights.

I suggest you do your research carefully and in the real world rather than on a forum. Ring round the GA operators and ask them what the chances of a job are, contact the airlines and as them what they are looking for etc. You may just find it an eyeopener.....

:ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Admittedly I have less than 2000hrs over 26 year, and am only a part time instructor, test and ferry pilot - who also uses his CPL, engineering qualifications and various other industry experience regularly in other aviation related jobs - but I really do disagree with Bose here about the industry as a whole.

There are crap jobs and working environments everywhere, but personally I am having a great career thanks.

Easy - never.

Frustrating - often.

Worthwhile - almost always.

Adequately paid - usually, but never likely to be rich.


I have qualifications that could arguably make me more money for less hours outside of aviation, but frankly, I have no interest in trying to. I will doubtless move around within aviation, but can think of nowhere I'd rather be working.

But, I'm not an airline pilot - and it's not a job that I've ever seriously contemplated. There are too many other things to do in aviation that appeal to me more.

G

[S-Works]

Genghis, your career is not as a Commercial Pilot, you are an academic and I imagine well paid for it. Give up the day job and concentrate solely on earning a living as a Commercial Pilot and then come back and give us some perspective.

With all respect, you are just one of those playing at "commercial" aviation on the side.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I am an aeronautical engineer Bose I probably play at being an academic as much as I play at being a commercial pilot. What I do is work in aviation and enjoy it.

Why are you still doing it if it's that bad?

G

[S-Works]

Why are you still doing it if it's that bad?

I have started to ask myself that very question........

What I do is work in aviation and enjoy it.

Working in aviation is not the same as being a commercial pilot for a living.....

I still enjoy aspects of working in aviation and still enjoy most of the flying. What I don't like is the way the industry has been run down and the gullible taken advantage off. Threads like this with people giving positive support to "go do it" does nothing more than part a fool from their money.

Like I said, give up your day job "in aviation" and actually have a go at being a full time pilot and then extoll its virtues. Tell us exactly how you walked into a job and how it pays the same or better than your current career.

You play at commercial aviation, a CRI allows you to play at being an Instructor with the syndicates etc you are involved with. Your CPL without an IR does nothing more than give you an opportunity to tell everyone you are a "commercial pilot" but the reality is that you are not employable in any useful sense in commercial aviation. So you are a highly qualified academic and aeronautical engineer earning a pretty good whack who dabbles in a bit of ego flattering "commercial flying". That does not give you the right to give advice to someone considering giving up a career to "follow the dream" and spend themselves into oblivion for a job thats most unlikely to ever appear.

You only have to look at the people on here over the 15 odd years we have been posting who have come and gone following the dream and very few of them actually made it. You know enough of them personally that gave up and went onto other jobs.

Its about time as an industry we started being honest with ourselves and each other about the nature of it rather than perpetuating the bull ****.

:*

[Genghis the Engineer]

Or improving things?

Personally, the only thing I want to do full time us work in aviation. I don't want to be "just" an engineer, or pilot, or academic. But I know plenty of people who are very happy being one thing only - but if you aren't, change things from within, or move out are perhaps more useful than complaining from inside?

But actually the main advice I offered was to look towards working within aviation and see if the OP's existing skills have a fit. There's far more to aviation than just scheduled flying - which yes, I personally would need to finish my IR off to do.

G

[Baikonour]

Threads like this with people giving positive support to "go do it" does nothing more than part a fool from their money.
I don't think a single post in this thread has said that. :ugh:

What I don't like is the way the industry has been run down and the gullible taken advantage off.
The problem is that what you are saying applies equally well to most if not all other industries today as well. Do you know how much interns get paid at banks or lawfirms and how many hours they work? Or, to stick with vocational jobs (which is what piloting could be seen as), look at teachers, nurses and charity workers.

There are very few (please tell me that I'm wrong and I'll swap across!) jobs/industries today where 'love for the subject' will guarantee you anything more than a reasonable go at it. Aviation is no different in that respect and, like I said above, at least it is a growing industry and overall relatively profitable. Like most places, if you are not only good at what you do, but can also show something 'else' to take your job above and beyond, there is a chance to shine.

Having said that, no one is disagreeing with you re. becoming a CAT tube driver. It does seem to have become a role where the 'else' bit is being bred out of the practitioners and they end up being boxed in and limited to what they can be used for. But whereas it is maybe not surprising that a young lad or lass with no other experience but youthful dreams makes the choice to limit themselves to such a job, what I am saying (as is Genghis, I believe) is that once you have some experience and some different perspectives, there are roles within aviation where you may be able to both get some flying as part of your job and benefit from your experience and have an interesting job and good lifestyle.

You may call that 'playing pilot', but that does sound a little bit like sour grapes and snobbery from a grumpy old man and devalues your posts ...

B.

[S-Works]

You may call that 'playing pilot', but that does sound a little bit like sour grapes and snobbery from a grumpy old man and devalues your posts ...

I do exactly the same stuff as Ghenghis, so how is that sour Grapes?

I am giving a truthful perspective on the industry from the inside. I watch too many people come and go having parted with huge amounts of money and achieving nothing.

Interns in other industry pay for an education with time and effort I know of none where they are asked to pay to work.....

[Genghis the Engineer]

Interns in other industry pay for an education with time and effort I know of none where they are asked to pay to work.....

Historically the best route into a career in aircraft design is probably the Cranfield MSc, which still runs, and is still arguably the best in the world: I've been invited to their end of course presentations the last few years, and am consistently extremely impressed.

It'll cost you £10-£20k for a year (plus your living expenses), and you'll spend several months of that working at your own expense on somebody else's design or research project ! The good news is that those people then tend to go into extremely good jobs very quickly - whilst there's a surplus of job-hunting fATPLs, there's a shortage of good MEng or MSc qualified engineers. If anybody's tempted - link below...

https://www.cranfield.ac.uk/courses/masters/aerospace-vehicle-design.html

That said, I'd struggle also to think of any professional education quite as expensive as training as a professional pilot - and pay-to-fly is particularly dubious.

G

[b.a. Baracus]

It's a real quandary.

I know people who have completed modular and integrated training and have walked straight into jobs. I also know people who have completed training many years ago and have not yet found anything. There are also people who have spent at least 4 or 5 years full time instructing before moving on.

It all comes down to your perception of risk and benefits vs expenditure.

When you read posts on here saying it's no different to paying for a legal or medical degree and working on reduced benefits / remuneration as a junior doctor or lawyer, I'm sorry but that is absolute rubbish. At the end of the day Pilot licenses are not as transferable to other jobs as a medical or law degree is for example. Therefore you have spent £50-£100k on a very particular and specialised career path.

Again, the other posts you will see are along the lines of well you don't want to reach 75 and think if only. This mantra is a total waste of time. The decision to commence a flying career should be made with the brain only and emotion shouldn't come into it. It's the same as somebody saying "live every day like it's your last", not realistic as nobody would want to visit the post office or cut their toenails if it was their last day, but sometimes these things must be done. Anyway I digress!

[Genghis the Engineer]

I did my PPL because I love flying, and my BEng degree because I wanted to work as an aeronautical engineer. Both worked out fine.

I did my PhD simply because I wanted one, and my CPL mostly for the benefit of my ego. As it turns out, both have massively benefitted my career - which wasn't the objective. Put those together, and you get somebody managing aviation research - which is mostly me at the moment.


Possibly I have done relatively well because I just keep adding "stuff I can do", and make my only real absolute that I want to stay in aviation.

I can think of a former PhD student of mine, who did a good aeronautical engineering PhD, but is determined "only" to go for the straight academic career path. In that, he's been very unsuccessful.

I can certainly think of people who "only" wanted to be airline pilots, and have failed miserably.

I flew with somebody the other day who went PPL -->ambulance driver --> CPL --> instructor --> ambulance technician --> air ambulance pilot. He seemed to have had an erratic career, but a lot of fun, and very little time unemployed.


Maybe flexibility is the key - the more open minded you are about the stuff you're prepared to do with your skills and qualifications, and the more prepared you are to add to those without being too narrow minded, maybe the better chances of doing things you will enjoy (and pay the bills!)

G

[abgd]

Interns in other industry pay for an education with time and effort I know of none where they are asked to pay to work.....

Many foreign PhD candidates are essentially paying lab techs - given the amount of supervision/educational input they receive.

Many industries e.g. the UN, fashion seem keen on unpaid interns - and arguably it's cheaper to be a PTF pilot living somewhere cheap than an unpaid UN intern living in Geneva. My partner's a musician and her orchestras now comprise a large number of interns, which the orchestras are paid for taking.

The average female medical student in the UK is expected to retire without having paid off her student debt. The wards are so hostile that 1/4 leave medicine within the first two years of qualifying. A large proportion of the rest leave for the antipodes where I'm told life is better.

This year I've treated 1 professor for a serious suicide attempt, two lecturers for slicing deep wounds into their arms, and another who was biting large chunks out of herself.

It's hard out there, whichever walk of life you choose. I rarely meet anyone these days who enjoys their work.

[Genghis the Engineer]

1 professor for a serious suicide attempt, two lecturers for slicing deep wounds into their arms,

Much as I enjoy my engagement with academia, it's a bloody harsh working environment.

In earth sciences, a PhD student is typically expected to live on about £8k.pa for 4 years whilst working silly hours to deliver their independent research. Engineering ups the money a bit, life sciences just double the hours.

A typical university professor is expected to bring in £200k.pa in research income, teach 10+ hours per week, generate at-least one high impact research publication per year, and is usually managing a selection of people, courses and budgets. That typically maps to around 60 hours per week, 3 weeks holiday taken per year, for an income around £60k. Few retire much below 70 these days.

Strangely however, as a profession they are one of the longest lived. There are theories that whilst their workload is high, the actual control they have over how they deliver that is significantly greater than most other workers, which is a relative recipe for health. Not, of-course if it all gets too much for you and you try and jump off a bridge.

G

[abgd]

Though remember that the generation of academics who are dying now, worked under very different conditions from those existing today.

As an aside, I notice that a disproportionate number of my age ninety-something patients were in the RAF and few than I would expect were in the other branches of the armed forces.

[TractorBoy]

Even if you're not doing it for employment, you could still do a CPL. I did it (along with the 14 ATPL exams) as a personal challenge, plus I had a lot of fun doing it and learnt a lot of useful stuff (plus a lot of stuff that was completely pointless...) along the way.

Worth it career-wise : NO
Worth it personally : YES

You will have to make a call on doing the full IR though before the exams expire. I've decided not to bother and have an IR(R) for the times I need to use it in the UK. That can limit trips abroad but it doesn't worry me as I'm basically a fair-weather pilot.