A Few Ideas......

[Reverend Green]

After the last year it has become apparent that many things need to change at Cathay to ensure we're all happy campers, and I appreciate we have a part to play. So I thought it was time for a positive thread to highlight some suggestions for management on how things can be improved (aside from just pay rises, and things that cost money) whether they are things other airlines do or just little things that might go to make things nicer. Let's try and keep it cordial, and professional and pertinent and constructive feedback. Here's my 2 Cents worth.

1) In the Flight-deck -
Hurry up and get I-pads issued to us all.
Proper back lumbar supports
Healthy crew meals I.e. Proper portions of things like salads -should be a whole main course e.g. Greek salad with grilled chicken kebabs.
Oh and get rid of the water spray and replace with a nice moisturiser...much more hydrating.
2) Training - stop the wastage (eg unnecessary sims....most 2nd officers do more than double the min required amount of sims then they still go on to do a full type rating....so much room for savings on sim / trainer costs (or negotiate with HKCAD, if possible so full type rating can be issued after the 3 years with all 'training' items complete) ......money saved put towards increase HKPA
second day of base training...is it really necessary? .....saving for one day of base training put towards increase in HKPA.
Get transition courses to go zero flight time...put savings towards increase in HKPA,
Get rid of unnecessary QL, trainer saving cost put towards increase in HKPA) - yearly line check anyhow.
Get rid of the term 'junior' first officer it is both derogatory and extremely outdated - rename First officer under probation...I don't see any 'junior' Captains
Set up an anonymous feedback system via a 3rd party company on all sims and training events whereby crews can 'really' say what their experience was and more importantly how trainers get 'honest' feedback to allow them to develop and be the best in the industry (like BA have set up)
'Train' crews before 'checking' them or just actually train them properly? Or actually remove the term 'checking' from the vocabulary and change the culture to a 'training' gentlemanly airline I.e. an airline that's actually looking forward instead of 30 years behind.
Allow crews (both captains and first officers) to be trained as sim operators and use the empty sim sessions for non-jeopardy practice - much more productive learning in a relaxed environment. (like BA does).
3) rosters - don't roster sims late / through the night then have a flight rostered early after, or roster sims after leave - pointless if you think individuals will study on much needed time off which is constantly happening.
Flights - keep early reports together and late reports together, constantly having lates to earlies and earlies to lates without proper time for rest adjustments (is it really that hard to do a run of constant lates a few days off then constant earlies).
Stop with the isolated one days off its useless to catch up from a week of hard work and only adds to long term fatigue issues.
Stop calling out an early reserve for a late flight to 'save the late reserve just in case' - early reserve should be for early flights and vice versa so proper rest can be planned.
Stop SOs on the min rest Dxb flights - if cabin crew need a full night for safety so should the flight crew, and SOs should be given at least same rest as cabin crew, just because 'it's legal' doesn't mean it's sensible.
Try and keep the crews together down route where possible to build a social and good team working environment for better relationships between the flight crew and cabin.
Get rid of the 'formal' introductions I think flight crew should make their intro in the cabin crew briefing room and break down the barriers making a more relaxed and 'modern' working relationships (I digress).
Crewing to be more transparent - list the flights that are un-crewed so crew can choose pick up the un-crewed flight for a 'ace' card to wipe a trip later on (helps crewing in the short term and allows crews to get late notice time off for a variety of lifestyle things - win/win) The rest picked up from reserve call outs (again BA have a system like this)....after CC, of course.
Honour all requests or just admit only the first 2 get processed, and have done with it.
Have one month of all reserve rostered then 'stable' rosters for the rest of the year.
Set up useful 'lifestyle' rosters or give crews the ability for temporary overseas basings again and even local Asian ones.
Or provide commuting rosters to allow new joiners an appropriate accommodation option like other Asian carriers.
.....I'll let the ideas roll in on rosters, as Pandora's box will open......
4) HKPA -hurry up and increase, many officers are running up debt to survive
5) implement a fast track school application for new officers or reintroduce overseas education to HK ESF limit.
6) Give SO officers the ability to choose from HKPA or a company paid accommodation ( larger size for those with family) like Emirates.
7) Staff Travel - extend to a certain number of 'nominated' companions, then at least siblings can bring their husbands and children to visit and single people their friends.
Extend FOC to Dragon air too.
Allow 'free' business class upgrades after a certain number of years service.
Let FOC actually mean free of charge (or at the very least the correct tax without the fuel surcharge etc).
8) provide sleep seats for crews at HQ to rest in after long duties before driving home.
9) free coffee in crew check in (and tea please of the English sort with fresh milk)
10) fresh milk for the free coffee in the sim block.
11) better ear defenders
12) change the 'stuffy' conservative culture into a more innovative 'fun' airline
13) hopefully not too late this one.,,.add platinum stripes on the new uniform to represent a 'real' change, instead of keeping the tacky gold that makes us look like a South American General.
13) whilst we're at it create a positive moto we can all rally behind and pin it to the captains jacket....
14) Pay out a decent profit share...it's only fair or provide us with dividend shares in the company.

Err think that's about it for me for now.......

[cxorcist]

Reverend Green, I guess your new career flying Cathay's shiny jets isn't quite as wonderful as you hoped it would be. Too bad nobody warned you before you signed up. Oh, wait a second... Isn't that what we do on Pprune every f'ing day?

[quadspeed]

Reverend. You've certainly established why you get paid to drive planes as opposed to managing airlines.

Rebranding Cathay Pacific into a "fun and crazy" airline is my favorite. And the Queen should get a tattoo across her face.

[betpump5]

"13) whilst we're at it create a positive moto we can all rally behind and pin it to the captains jacket...."

Don't P1ss on my jacket and tell me it's raining

[CXChildLabour]

Less training for SO? Obviously you are one of those "know it all" type of guys, must be a bundle of joy to fly with.

[The Management]

RG,

You are so naive. Have you learned any “The CPG” history?

Nothing will ever change for the better at "The CPG". Nothing has changed for the better since 1990.

Nothing will change for the better in the future.

Pilots will never be unified.

It is our train set and WE do what we please with it. You are an employee and you do what we say.

We are not Emirates. Live with it. If you want to be like Emirates, go there. We don't care. Pilots will fly our shiny jets for peanuts so we will just hire more.

If you don't like the way things are now, leave. You will not like it in the future. Pay back your loan and leave.

Go back to your home country and fly your corroded jets with a good roster or you stay at "The CPG" and fly our nice shiny jets and the way we do things.

Nothing will change here so stop whining.

You are all cheep employee's that make us a lot of money. We weeded out A Scale, we are weeding out B scale and soon enough all will be on E scale.

To My Bonus.
The Management.

[Reverend Green]

I don't think any airline is particularly good to be honest, but what does surprise me about Cathay however is how they run the rosters like a low cost airline and the utter contempt it appears they have for their pilots.

It is intriguing given Cathays 'legacy'. A shame to be sure the decline, but the decline is still a little behind the rest of the industry (no doubt in another 30 years Cathay may close the door on expats altogether like Singapore - I'm sure there will be ample supply of ex-Chinese airforce guys). The pay will never be what is was (I'm over that but apparently some are not. I'm constantly comparing my - and this is the things for wannabes - DISPOSABLE income and lifestyle with several other jobs and now the global market has picked up, and banking heavy jet time, we don't have to take whatever job we can - which happened to be Cathay as they are desperate).


So now after voting down the RPs there is a chance for lifestyle negotiations. Unfortunately it appears you used to have some good things but voted/ negotiated them away in the past. I'm still in a position whereby I can leave, and like all my peers I speak to, are constantly weighing up whether we will, so if don't see change rest assured I'm off. It looks like for most there is a window before seniority makes it a harder decision. This next year is critical for Cathay in a lot of people's decisions and the RPs and HKPA will speak volumes to how the 'new' Cathay management want to play things and will tell us if it's worth staying or going to be on the same or higher disposable income elsewhere. I didn't need to draw a line in the sand I'm coming in with fresh eyes looking to the future not dwelling in the past. And if I leave and a new E scale comes in so be it, I have no loyalty to Cathay at present, not until they show me they want to be great again. I don't blame the bean counters, there have been some hard times for airlines 9-11, SARS, Asian flu, global economic crisis...and most likely another one in a few years. However now those challenges are behind us time to get things moving forward and time to invest in the people.

Now back to the post.

15) Time the company invested in our product it is inferior to Emirates.
16) get rid of the seniority system in collaboration with pilot unions world wide so labour forces will drive wages higher, and it's easier to leave if things get worse.

Ps my experience is the pilots are in it for themselves unlike the cabin crew who appear very United.

17) if things don't improve time for a peaceful sit - in on days off.

[Reverend Green]

BA are using cruise relief pilots for the A380 as they can't meet the training demand at present - perhaps a glimpse into cathays future too (350 pilots needed by end of 2016). They get a full type rating and will go in the sim once every 90 days to stay current. If your worried about the lack of experience the company should provide a full type rating on joining. I expect (even with the masses of extra sims and failures and re-tests and wasted instructor time it still comes out cheaper doing it their way). Numerous times SOs complain at being tested and checked on things they have never even been taught and then surprise, they need extra sims for training (how backwards and wasteful is that - don't judge them until they are trained and qualified) the system is a failure and I'm surprised it saves money. You are more likely to die from the 'white death' in your coffee than a SO though. Small changes can make a more pleasant experience.

anyhow back to the thread nice to see some positivity -

15) invest in the product its inferior to Emirates.

[Scoreboard]

Reverend reveals he is just a HKPA s/o bitching with the most inane ideas...


Lots of those s/o just dont need extra sectors some should be godamn sacked they are that useless. You get the occasional bright s/o or jfo and u know they are fine but finding them very very rare....


U dont like the **** you got, CX will only understand with your leaving....dont let the door hit you on the way out....

Read the 49 ers book if you want to know what they will do with your bright ideas

[Gnadenburg]

Great wind-up Reverend.

Even sucked in some of our regular FH contributors such as The Manager.:ok:

[Sam Ting Wong]

15) wake up

[Lowkoon]

What moisturiser does BA supply? :hmm: Maybe a hair gel dispenser in the bathrooms and manicure/pedicure allowance? A pillow menu in the crew rest, company jammy jams with your initials embroided on them, hankies not tissues? Pressurised oxygen tents for the beijing and shanghai overnights perhaps. Oh yes, and less training for SOs. All of these options have the same credibility.

[Reverend Green]

I think sleep suits for crew rest are a great idea much more practical then the 'sleeping bag' I've not seen one person use. I could do with one and I think they should add them to the new uniform list....I'll swop it for my useless winter jacket.

And just to balance things out it's my belief that the wastage in training is more than evident also on command upgrades, if not more so. It may be the belief by some that Cathay has the hardest course in the world and hence the highest chop rate......but it's blatant obvious that people failed because they weren't trained correctly in the 12 years previously. It's absurd the past numbers. So as a company we're faced with the high costs of retraining and wasted instructor time which could be channelled into HKPA. To have people learn everything themselves and point out where they haven't learnt it properly by checking them might have been good enough with the steady stream of high experienced personnel, but it appears only now is Cathay adjusting into a training organisation.

It's nice to see however that our head of training is having some good effect as the line checks are slowly becoming a more gentlemanly affair, and there are some great guys in the sim block now (despite me being biased I have to take my hat off to the ex BA and Virgin guys in there).

So another idea, one that Emirates use, is to have yearly line checks alternate between the aircraft and the sim to allow at least one year of another good (training) loft.

[sorvad]

R.G ….make up a phrase out of the following words:

Cuckoo Land Cloud

[Cumguzzler]

I he's Peter Hay's nephew.

[Pontius]

BA are using cruise relief pilots for the A380 as they can't meet the training demand at present - perhaps a glimpse into cathays future too

Bollox. It's business as usual with a 'heavy' FO on three-crew and a 'heavy' Capt & FO on a four-crew. No such thing as an SO or dedicated 'cruise relief'. The heavy on the outbound flight become(s) the operating on the inbound flight.

[Shutterbug]

Dear Reverend,

While I applaud your enthusiasm, your naivite is frightening. If there's a more threadbare yarn in the annals than the young buck full of p1ss and vinegar who knows-it-all and is going to change the world, I haven't heard it yet. Brace yourself, I have a shocking revelation for you. Deep breath... ready... this might be hard to fathom... but you aren't the first person who has come into an operation, sized it up, and found it to be wanting. No better, AND have some few choice ideas on just how the perceived "problems" might be fixed. Kudos for joining the long grey line of faceless nameless minions who have gone to their grave with heads full of also-had great ideas that never come to fruition.

Newsflash. Modern corporations are something akin to feudal fiefdoms, and rather than view employees as inestimable human capital and part of the collective effort to maximize the operation's potential profits by all means necessary, including the experience, wisdom, views and opinions of the thousands of line personnel who collectively possess more wisdom and knowhow than a million managerial trusts… these entities are rather run top-down by corporate lords and ladies who fancy themselves modern versions of barons, dukes and duchesses. Their “vision” is inherent dear chap. You are just human fodder at the bottom of the chain.

You could have opted to take the other route... by investing in some fancy "school"--yes, parantheses--where you could chance the long hard slog to the top of the feudal domain via some MBA mill or law “school;” the back office, some project team, some other office... and who knows... after 20 years of living on your knees servicing the lords and ladies, maybe a chance at a corporate knighthood your ownself where you finally at long last have the chance to demonstrate to the world your deep and hidden reservoir of intellectual acumen... but you chose the route of serfdom, sorry, I meant… employee.

“Pilot” is probably one the most glorified employees in the history of corporate serfdom, but in the end, you are just a serf. Shut your bloody trap, keep it shut, and get busy cranking out widgets for the Masters of the Universe. Don’t wonder how any business school type who couldn’t tell a a screw from a bolt or a slat from a flap gets to ride herd over thousands of professional aviators. Yours is not to reason why, etcetera… etcetera… etcetera. Your opinions, however cute, were not solicited, and won’t be.

If you wish to break this mold, make your own destiny. Go fly your own single-engine one-plane outfit somewhere and go reinvent the business model. Who knows, with a little bit of luck, maybe your ideas become demonstrably better to the industry and you become another Captain of Industry that way.

BUT… please extend us the courtesy and realization that for every young gun who comes raring into the world with his hair on fire there are long lines of your olders, and betters, who at one time stood in your shiny new shoes with just so much enthusiasm and eagerness. And then a little something called “reality” came knocking.


Best of luck to you.

[JuniorMan]

Dear Reverend,

While I applaud your enthusiasm, your naivite is frightening. If there's a more threadbare yarn in the annals than the young buck full of p1ss and vinegar who knows-it-all and is going to change the world, I haven't heard it yet. Brace yourself, I have a shocking revelation for you. Deep breath... ready... this might be hard to fathom... but you aren't the first person who has come into an operation, sized it up, and found it to be wanting. No better, AND have some few choice ideas on just how the perceived "problems" might be fixed. Kudos for joining the long grey line of faceless nameless minions who have gone to their grave with heads full of also-had great ideas that never come to fruition.

Newsflash. Modern corporations are something akin to feudal fiefdoms, and rather than view employees as inestimable human capital and part of the collective effort to maximize the operation's potential profits by all means necessary, including the experience, wisdom, views and opinions of the thousands of line personnel who collectively possess more wisdom and knowhow than a million managerial trusts… these entities are rather run top-down by corporate lords and ladies who fancy themselves modern versions of barons, dukes and duchesses. Their “vision” is inherent dear chap. You are just human fodder at the bottom of the chain.

You could have opted to take the other route... by investing in some fancy "school"--yes, parantheses--where you could chance the long hard slog to the top of the feudal domain via some MBA mill or law “school;” the back office, some project team, some other office... and who knows... after 20 years of living on your knees servicing the lords and ladies, maybe a chance at a corporate knighthood your ownself where you finally at long last have the chance to demonstrate to the world your deep and hidden reservoir of intellectual acumen... but you chose the route of serfdom, sorry, I meant… employee.

“Pilot” is probably one the most glorified employees in the history of corporate serfdom, but in the end, you are just a serf. Shut your bloody trap, keep it shut, and get busy cranking out widgets for the Masters of the Universe. Don’t wonder how any business school type who couldn’t tell a a screw from a bolt or a slat from a flap gets to ride herd over thousands of professional aviators. Yours is not to reason why, etcetera… etcetera… etcetera. Your opinions, however cute, were not solicited, and won’t be.

If you wish to break this mold, make your own destiny. Go fly your own single-engine one-plane outfit somewhere and go reinvent the business model. Who knows, with a little bit of luck, maybe your ideas become demonstrably better to the industry and you become another Captain of Industry that way.

BUT… please extend us the courtesy and realization that for every young gun who comes raring into the world with his hair on fire there are long lines of your olders, and betters, who at one time stood in your shiny new shoes with just so much enthusiasm and eagerness. And then a little something called “reality” came knocking.


Best of luck to you.

Wow, post of the century right here.

[goathead]

junior man
It was spot on , what are you smoking??

[Greenlights]

RG,
an advice ( a real one, there is no irony), move to the management side if you want to. Many pilots criticize managements and it is comprehensible but working in this field is actually nice, relax and more interesting in term of career and money.
It is what I have just reached now (the key ? you need right contacts) and it is a lot better.
Life is not only about flying, but it is msotly about having control on things, it makes you feel good emotions and satisfaction actually.
I do fly a lot less but I do not care, what I want is to take real decisions and express my ideas. Oh and you will see that actually pilots are only employees and you take into consideration what is good for your company not for pilots. If pilots want a better life it is their fight then.
It is like a chess game.
And for what I can see from here, no...terms and c's will not be better for sure.
For excemple, last week we talked about planning Long haul (low cost). Guess what ? conditions are in our favor.
So if you feel frustrated, just try to change your camp. You will find out that there are many way to be satisfied actually. Flying is just a small part of this world. Running a company is far more interesting and requires tons of skills.
Good luck dude

[clear.right]

Wow,
The Management, there is an upsurper to your position as management here on pprune.
It appears they have instituted a D scale management pay grade, that didn't include grammar, spelling, and a cognitive thought process as a requirement. Maybe the ability to properly set up a chess board was the key.

[JuniorMan]

junior man
It was spot on , what are you smoking??

I totally agree. I was not being sarcastic.

[Reverend Green]

Junior man - Yes I think we are all aware of how the world works. It does take a lot of effort to tame a human being into an employee. The first thing you have to do is break the human's independent will.

A good way to do this is to give them a weighty policy manual filled with nonsensical rules and regulations. This leads the new employee to become more obedient, fearing that s/he could be disciplined at any minute for something incomprehensible.

Thus, the employee will likely conclude it's safest to simply obey the master's commands without question. Stir in some good office politics for good measure, and we've got a freshly minted mind Slave.

Peasants working for the lords and ladies we may be, but as King Louis XVI should have realised...even peasants can only take so much.

Whilst fresh / old ideas may fall on deaf ears, without feedback there is nothing and times are always changing. It's all very cloak and daggers at the moment. What was naive was to highlight possible improvements as this was sure to get people's backs up. I was hoping to hear more of the great ideas that other legacy airlines have implemented for their crews to make a good comparison. however they were just few feedback ideas both serious and tongue in cheek to ponder for the management.

Mostly however, to highlight the cost wastage I see especially in the checking dept having now gone through the mill (perhaps even cut the line sectors back to 20 or give the trainers the discretion to put people forward earlier for those experienced or competent chaps thus saving time and money). Hopefully however, the clever chaps at our AOA helm are intensely investigating where the company is squandering money and using that knowledge (and potential savings) to power our own demands ......from every area of the company.

Perhaps I should have taken a different tack with this thread - what are the good things with Cathay perhaps? Things that make other airlines jealous of us;
A couple of flight requests a month, the ability to swop and proffer (standard for most airlines). 84 hrs marker is the big one, and apparently some lifestyle choices with W patterns. Short and long jokers....and that's probably about it. With the cash now long gone all that's left is the lifestyle choices as it certainly doesn't pay to be at Cathay over other airlines now with more disposable income to be had at EK and BA for starters (want to be able to change type every 5 years anyone?).

Ratmick - I'm sorry to suggest a replacement to your 'moisturising' spray, you must be one of the few who use it. However, as my female colleagues remind me, a real hydrating moisturising must also have an SPF 25+ to help protect against skin cancer which I forgot to mention, but thanks for the reminder. I'm only suggesting improvements to what you have already chosen to have in place.

One extra idea and one from the cutting room floor is personal Geiger counters for us - as we fall in the top 5% of careers with high radiation exposure. Gov workers are required to wear them by law. I don't trust the company averages and it may turn out that we need to reduce our yearly flight hours significantly in light of new data....worth a study I think just for the knowledge and the possibility of a what if? given concrete personal data.

Pontius - cruise relief pilots will be utilised at BA whilst the back log of training is complete (albeit temporary) They will receive a full (that's full) simulator type rating and 1, 90 day sim to stay current. They will not however be allowed to operate below 20,000ft (second officers to us but cruise relief in name for them) they will go into the RHS 12 months later or sooner if the backlog clears. Last time I looked we also had heavy time SOs coming in with A320 and 737 time. Perhaps to get on the A350 some of our FOs will be willing to go back in the '3rd' seat for a year - it might do some good to remember ....especially those cruise 'commanders' we've all encountered along the way.

Intriguingly Silberfuchs the prospect of working as a top manager at McDonald's gives a monthly salary of £2770 after tax (based on their yearly £45,00 salary) minus £1000 mortgage, £600 food, £200 council tax, and £200 utilities a person would be left with £770 or roughly HK$10,000 disposable income (free healthcare and education). That's certainly more disposable income than an SO and even more than an FO with a family in school with suitable housing on HKPA (depending on cost of housing) ..........and more importantly, a sorry statement for Cathay.

So whilst there is a chance for some to leave I'm sure all who still can are seriously considering the options in lieu of the anticipated HKPA rise.

Preparing scenarios for future HR interviews, raises another idea about the initial Cathay interview...for some reason they keep the old technical drilling, whilst even Airbus are moving away from a high technical knowledge for pilots. Perhaps it shows a motivation to learn and memorise some obscure data only to forget it the next day, much like the old fashion line checks or a Victorian school - an appropriate test of how to fit in. Here's to learning 8500 pages of manuals and being able to recall them at anyone's bidding. Modern aircraft just don't require us to navigate via the stars anymore....more pertinent in today's aviation environment is a HR style interview whereby we can weed out those whom we would rather not sit with for the next 12 hours.

With that note, and enough sport from me I shall remind those who still have a chance and an EASA licence BA require 350 pilots by the end of 2016, and around 200 the following year. EK are also desperate (just the time not counted in the bunk makes us hesitate just one second, but for the extra extra disposable income, 4x4, cheaper western food with massive choice and the 2600 sq ft villa.........). Management take note when you play your HKPA card (will you gamble the 350 will save the discontent?).

So to those whom have lost faith in aviation and still have time it's always nice to have a re-watch.

http://youtu.be/XozHLoqwp_4

[SOPS]

RG, you need to ask yourself why EK are desperate. The grass is not greener there, infact there is no grass.

[clear.right]

Thanks for proving my point, D scale management!

[goathead]

Junior Man, is that you Peter H ??

[Shep69]

Preacher Man,

Thank you for your thoughful inputs and hopefully your want to improve things won't become jaded as you age and find them falling on deaf ears. Successful corporations DO listen, at least in the building phase. But most do eventually go through THEIR life as people sometimes do in general and do decline as these suggestions are no longer considered--or really even listened to or desired.

Most everyone wants to make things better and this is a good thing. So try not to lose this and keep a positive attitude.

Unfortunately, there ARE plenty of win-win solutions which have been proposed for quite some time by professionals wishing to improve lifestyle AND profitibility (these by the way go hand in hand--happy workers are VERY productive workers) which continue to fall on deaf ears. I have no idea WHY but have accepted that this IS the case. Things like stable rosters, a real PBS, preference based rosters, 14 hour unrestricted long call reserve (replacing the previous A-days), (like every OTHER major airline) being assistative in commuters getting to work (instead of our constantly trying to work against them and even looking for ways to get people in trouble--imagine the insanity of a company which deliberately does its best to make it hard for its workers to get to work !), 3-man with appropriate compensation AND (more importantly) fatigue and rest safeguard standards (rather than the hodge podge of crews thrown together at the last minute as we now roster to), and many more--many GREAT suggestions have been proposed by operators and SMEs and rejected out of hand.

The current 'system' of 'continuous reserve' is horrendously inefficient for everyone--especially the company. Instead of a planned and stable flow of assets, a hole is plugged today (or even just for the next hour) creating 4 more later in the week and 16 later in the month. Being stuck in 10-mile scope results in wild swings into overtime (as well as wacky and expensive cobbled together crews--CN, CN as RP, and 2 FOs, etc.) and then sitting folks as they 'time out' or legitimately go sick or fatigued (again with no way to plan any form of coherent rest between patterns; one's body ain't a switch--and the continued effects do take their toll in decreasing resistance to illnesses of all sorts), with this happening often at the last moment to boot. It decreases available assets on ALL levels, as well as decreasing the reliability of whatever assets are left. Exacerbating the already significant manning problem in an ever increasing spiral. Not to mention the effects on those trying to solve a puzzle which cannot be solved--kind of like when you screw up a BC localizer and wind up chasing a fleeting needle which just goes farther away faster.

It becomes frustrating, and results in one kinda trudging along and looking for greener pastures. This doesn't get me down anymore, but saddens me that through short sightedness and self interest at the exclusion of the whole, the powers that be are keen to trash out what truly is a great job with great people and what had (and could be) such a great place to work. It still has its moments and these are worth being grateful for. Lots of good folks, good friends, good places to go, etc. So one CAN still enjoy things.

In short, I wouldn't look for improvement until we see real action; not a few flowery platitudes. I'd suggest you look for YOUR part in this, enjoy things, realize TIME is the most precious resource in life, and don't feel trapped in any one place. We are trained professionals with experience and highly marketable skills.

As far as control, I WOULD suggest you not relish this but come to terms with what little you actually have. We can all drive our own boat from time to time, but in this world one has precious little control over others or most circumstances--and one's time is much better spent in learning how to DEAL with this. This has largely been the achilles heel of the company--not realizing this and allowing it to build toward arrogance which benefits no one. A storm doesn't get out of the way just because you're flying a green and white CX jet. So one can spend one's life constantly duking it out with the storms, or spend a better life trying to figure out a coherent and profitable way around them. Small ponds, large capital, and protective bubbles have sustained it so far but eventually the ponds dry up and the bubbles burst.

[OK4Wire]

It seems you have been inside my head, Shep:

This doesn't get me down anymore, but saddens me that through short sightedness and self interest...keen to trash out what truly is a great job
come to terms with what little you actually have
So one can spend one's life constantly duking it out with the storms, or spend a better life trying to figure out a coherent and profitable way around themCouldn't agree more with those sentiments.

[Arfur Dent]

Well said Shep.
Whoever the (very) Senior Board Members are who define and insist upon the completely 'anti Aircrew' stance that seems to permeate throughout this Company has spoilt what could be a brilliant job. Surely it isn't Sir Adrian or his descendants!
As you implied, happy and well paid employees are VERY productive and willing to help.
The Corporate culture (sic) that prevails has resulted, amazingly, in the very people who literally drive the Airline- ie the 'millionaire morons' - actually clubbing together anonymously in order to do the Company harm until they get some respect and proper treatment (CC).
Rosters are produced and maintained in pretty much the same ridiculously old fashioned way they were decades ago. Pay, housing, COS - all cut to the bone.
How sad for all concerned - including the accountants who run and ruin everything for everyone except a select and delusional 'few'.:D

[Reverend Green]

Wise words Shep. We shall remain ever positive and always hopeful.

In the meantime - SOPS - the grass can actually be greener in Dubai (and Abu Dhabi) with some gorgeous parks (well kept and cleaner than HK)

http://www.bonningtontower.com/gfx/safa-park-banner.jpg

Ok so we may have to drive 15 mins through the desert to get to them, but at least EK will give us the loan for that air conditioned 4 x 4....and the desert can be also be fun to drive in.....

http://uk.tematis.com/1814-3741-large/4x4-desert-excursion-dubai.jpg

But the main thing is the current much higher disposable income....worth the comparison again for all who care after the expected HKPA rise (especially for those with, or planning to have, families).

and finally for a little inspiration for the next negotiation meeting, or anyone else who just wants to ponder a few ideas........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s87zEz4Ybho

[EFAHEAVY]

Reverend Green:

I've worked out who you are, pretty sure you've been at CX for what 8 weeks now? My words to you, your industrial agenda, 40 year fatboy airline captain arrogance, and basically your utter disdain for this airline HAS been noticed. All of the above won't be tolerated for much longer, TRUST ME. You've come to a country where THERE ARE NO industrial laws, whether they are written in black and white or not. You have been noticed, and might I say reported.

Pull your head in, wake up, shut up, and possibly even grow up. Enjoy being 'a number'.

[Reverend Green]

I’m sure the top would appreciate the directness of frontline feedback. You speak as if you’re ingrained in a fear / reporting culture, and if that’s the culture here then add that to the list of ideas for change. A company that doesn’t listen has no hope and I’m sure they understand that feelings run deep from everyone.

But yes you got me - I’m the 1000+ pilots on HKPA who believed we were joining Cathay Pacific – the best legacy airline in the world that cared for its crew. We were prepared to work harder than the rest, to be beaten down harder than the rest so we could rise up stronger, to become the ‘best of the best’ for great rewards. To stand taller than the others with pride and satisfaction that we had reached ‘the top’ and to take our place alongside the great aviators we so much longed to be.

Then the reality hit, and our dreams deflated, when we realised we were actually going backwards, that life was in fact unsustainable long term and huge sacrifices had to be made for very little actual reward. That there was also ‘a great disdain’ for us coming in, that this disdain extended from the very pilots we looked up to and aspired to be like. We took the blame for the decline, we still do.

There is of course no arrogance when speaking our minds in an equality culture, but a passion for change that reverberates throughout the entire pilot workforce. I don’t disdain Cathay, I enjoy my day-to-day job and the people I fly with but I still want for that positive change for both the people and the company – I always will. I want us to be the best in the world again, and I want to proud when I put my uniform on. Whilst others may mock, I still have faith in our management. I believe most of them want to see the same improvements for us we desire but I fear they have a lack of power from the very top. Perhaps I am too naïve after-all. As people have said, don’t expect change and if change won’t happen then people will have to vote with their feet. Cathay no longer remains the only option for people in an ever-increasing competitive world, and I think they finally know this now. I’ve already stated I would move on if I can’t sustain a living here – unfortunately I will have no choice.

I know not of one person who doesn’t regret their decision on coming here on HKPA because life is so difficult with a compromised lifestyle. When you reach the top, the struggle should surely cease. There was no agenda to the post other to highlight some ideas of improvement. A pleasant working environment makes a big difference to people’s attitudes, our work isn’t as hard as the old Cathay culture makes it. We remain positive that this once great airline can again find its feet and turn around the horrendous decline, move into the future and again extend the deserved respect to its pilot workforce and reward them for their loyalty and hard work, after all that’s why we came. The current culture is an incredibly unpleasant one to work in but whilst there are still people who believe there is always hope for change.

But when you have nothing to loose…..there is of course, nothing to loose.

[Trafalgar]

....so, you came here thinking things would 'just work out'...? Good grief. So, no prior research as to the reality of living in HK on a compromised package? No discussions with those already here who could have told you exactly what you now say you are experiencing? A sense of injustice towards the company and your other colleagues who either don't care or aren't interested?. Wow, great effort at effective career research. Can't understand why you are finding things so difficult. Seriously, CX are using and abusing you, even more so with the coming RP changes. If you want a life, make a move somewhere that you will at least get some proper benefits while employed (Emirates etc). Otherwise, you signed the contract....

[Reverend Green]

I think we all accepted the conditions because we had to - Cathay was the best choice. No feeling of injustice, but acceptance. Something those who were out of touch with the global industry back then, or who have only spent their career in Cathay couldn't / still can't fathom.

We saw the cut backs world wide, Cathay was no different. We came here because Cathay either gave us a free type rating and heavy jet time, or because we couldn't get jobs in our home countries because of the financial global crisis where lay offs were plenty. Perhaps we wanted to believe that the once Great Cathay still existed somewhere inside itself, and change would come. If not however, we knew the time would come where we could make a choice on any world airline and a decision on our futures will be made.

We're nearing a crunch time in a lot peoples decisions as to whether to stay or move on - purely because we might have to. The company has yet to play its hand on the matter which will send us the message.

But like you said, most aren't interested or don't care.

[Trafalgar]

It's not that I "don't care", it's just that it's hard to be confronted with low time, naive, self-absorbed, self-entitled individuals who voluntarily accepted conditions that not only don't provide them with any expectation of a proper career and life, but also put at risk those already at the airline. You played into managements hands, and now you find that it is almost impossible to see any sort of future. The airline business is a seniority game: the sooner you get on a proper list somewhere else, the better your life will be. Not trying to sound cold or unconcerned, only realistic. You made a bad choice. It's up to you to correct that.

[CodyBlade]

Less training for SO


I stopped reading after this line...

[SOPS]

I'm just wondering where RG thinks he can go with all his SO time, when Cathay sends him a message.

[OK4Wire]

COS '94..
the 49ers..

[crwkunt roll]

I’m the 1000+ pilots on HKPA who believed we were joining Cathay Pacific – the best legacy airline in the world that cared for its crew. We were prepared to work harder than the rest
Good one.
Most of you walked into this job without doing any work at all, except rote learning interview questions. Gimme a break.

[Threethirty]

In fairness we didn't help to stop HKPA even though it was going to affect us all. It was a case of I'm alright Jack and still is. In fact weren't the AOA, not the current incumbents, instrumental in bringing about HKPA?!

[Trafalgar]

Had dinner yesterday with an American Airlines pilot friend of mine. It is truly dire just how archaic and repressive our RP's are by comparison...and i'm talking about the present ones, never mind what this misguided company has in store for the future. If you can leave...leave. Wish I was 15 years younger... :(

(oh, and during dinner, he logged onto his company website, dropped two trips off his August schedule and then picked up two better trips, giving himself an extra 4 G days in a row in the bargain...all without speaking to a single soul).

[swh]

Interesting article What's it really like to work at Air NZ? - Business - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11485589)

Is that AT moonlighting as a people person ?

[XFR8]

Reverend Green. The naivety of you and your ilk is staggering. About 10 minutes research before joining would have saved you all this angst. Not that you shouldn't have joined, a free type rating, a few years getting drunk round Asia ... who wouldn't ?

But .....

Things will get worse and if you hang around a bit longer, they will get worse still.

That is it my friend in a nutshell. Enjoy the single life living in a shoebox while it lasts and then pull the handle.

[sorvad]

CURTAIN ROD

Quote:

'Get real: Work = money = funding your life and the things that matter and the things you like and want. There is nothing to "love" at all about this work. That's why it is called "work."'

This pretty much sums the arrogance and air of superiority you've demonstrated throughout your multitude of posts here over recent months....you just cannot fathom that anyone could possibly have a different point of view to your own, and that despite very trying industrial relations, just some might still actually enjoy the job of being an Airline Pilot

[Oval3Holer]

Airline piloting disappeared with the advent of being able to do nothing unless a checklist tells you to do it and nothing except what the checklist and a book tell you to do.

[Anotherday]

On the bright side at least he didn't actually go upstairs and bring his career at CX to an abrupt end. At least he was smart enough to post on an anonymous forum.
CX and the word suggestion rarely go together well. We have CHirP forms for when things get ugly, do you have any idea how rarely they get (confidentiality) submitted?
Keep your head down, avoid the crazies on your fleet, bank your pay, enjoy your time off. Easy.
It isn't going to change, so it's what you make it.

[Plus852]

I agree with every single word you said, Reverend Green.

But this is the CX culture, we are not allowed to express ourself and point out our own thoughts, even if for the better. Sometimes I think it's the pilot body that don't want progress, stuck with their old ways of doing things, reluctant to change, let's not just blame the 3rd floor. Progress isn't just payrises and basing slots.

It's a lost battle, and reading what most people wrote on this thread reinforces my views.

Good luck.

[Reverend Green]

Then I think company needs an anonymous suggestion feedback forum, or a big black box in dispatch. Especially given the history of the past, it makes people nervous to speak out now for 'fear' of retribution and that is only unhealthy for the organisation. I believe it's Japanese culture whereby the managers 'get drunk' with employees to hear honest feedback, then wipe the slate clean in the morning (wherever it is, it's smart). Sounds like the new management are trying to be open and maybe forgiving? but perhaps it's hard for the pilots to trust again Cathay? There's a definite need for a corporate culture change regardless.

Trafalgar - there will always be the overconfident or disrespectful SOs (a position normally reserved in other companies for the '1000 hour' FO who thinks he should be a captain until they crash back down to earth with a dodgy landing or a poor decision). Cathay still has a very very steep cockpit gradient (not entirely sure why...see earlier post of being 10 years behind), quite different to the flatter, more relaxed, open western ones, so I believe it also stands out more (and therefore comes across more disrespectful) when people speak out. I believe SOs should however be professional enough not to bring outside woes inside the flight deck. So I guess we'll just have to get used to them.

Equally though, there will always be the captain who thinks he should be revered just because of his position (commands and authority should always be respected but personality respect has to be earned). or the the checkers who are heavy handed because 'that's the way they had to act' or because 'that's what they had to endure' way back in the day.......So I guess we'll just have to get used to them too (but times have moved on).

Great captains and leaders earn respect by inspiring and motivating by their own example. Bad leaders through control and fear. It's all to easy to belittle someone who knows less than you and this is what happens often here.

With regards to my cost saving training ideas on SOs highlighting some wastage - Some SOs come to us with fast military jet time, some with heavy military / commercial jet time, some with corporate jet time with flight decks more modern than what we presently fly. Some have been commanders previously, an experience that some of our senior FOs don't even have. Some have invaluable experience flying in some of the most inhospitable places on the planet. And of course some come with none.

For those who judge those that come with none, it is wise to remember that an acorn is not judged as puny, a small shoot is not judged as weak, or the oak tree is not judged against the forest until it is fully grown. At every step of the way there is the potential for the oak tree to be stronger and bigger than the rest. Our future chief pilot is one of those spikey haired kids after all. I also expect that if the old Cathay guard turned up when they only had 200 hrs then many would need extra sectors or be possibly even be held back too.

...And that's well worth remembering!

In Cathay however, everyone is expected to be an oak tree from day one. Hence they should really be 'trained' and not 'checked' with unrealistic expectations.
Vol 8s, canned scenarios, tick boxing and bullying is not what they need. But it's finally nice to hear things are changing / changed.

To alleviate some worry perhaps SOs should not be on the seniority list until a successful upgrade. Perhaps a meritocracy until that stage. Thus, individuals will be self motivated to be the best. It will keep the egos reigned in and those who don't need all the training can move up earlier saving the company money and training costs whilst helping recruitment needs. This will also serve to continually attract more experienced personnel. Direct entry FOs (if recruited) will have to start at the bottom too and prove their worth which is fair for all, and avoids the problems of the past.

Sims for SOs should indeed be loft scenarios if not given full initial type ratings, and M3/M6's should at the very least put the depress over the various escape routes to make it 1) interesting and 2) useful. Start each sim like the 'T' sims in dispatch to make it as 'real' as possible and line pertinent. JFO training also tends to waste a week going over old ground if procedures aren't known by then, well.....

I do believe trainers should be given the power to put individuals forward earlier in training so yes (Cody blade above) less training for the 'right' SOs to help save costs. Not to mention the usual wastage of positioning and hotels for 'crew up' sims outside of HK. With regards to the QL it just appears there was a need to justify a reduced wage for first officers for 6 mths.

However to risk penalising hard up individuals further when they are already under a lot of stress financially, in my opinion, is simply not right. There are always too many variables in just 'one' check, not least higher than normal nerves when people's families are depending heavily on that rise just to survive, (and possibly pay back some accrued debt). Some get an easy ride While others battle typhoon conditions. I believe there is enough room for informal observations along the way through sims and regular line flights, not least the yearly line check that every other airlines use to determine if someone has slacked off. I'm sure they will even re-sign their contract - a necessity I believe to remove this one from the wording in it, but it will also be a nice time to get rid of that derogatory 'Junior' FO terminology too.

The guys have jumped through the many hoops you've thrown at them and proven themselves worthy through super hard work and diligence (against some awful attitudes to boot - it's not fun being told your 'nothing' to your face, and the others stories I'm told). At least give them their just rewards and more importantly;

Show them you have faith in your own training.

I've heard too many sad stories on this one of people going further back financially.

Now if possible, let's return to the original thread for a few ideas....

17) reduced engine taxi out - savings towards an increase in HKPA
18) better roster control like BA and American Airlines mentioned before.
19) regional lifestyle requests I.e a block of 4 long (dreaded) night turns for example, but with a guaranteed 4 days off after for example. Back to back (dreaded) India flights but with a guaranteed 3 days off. Then those who don't request these types of requests get left with the 'nicer' sectors with the min 2 days off (note single days off abolished). Easy for crewing to roster 'predetermined' block requests - therefore efficient, people get what they want, plus better rest -therefore less sickness, fatigue etc and cost to company.

20) Time to move on from the culture and consciousness of holding 'grudges' of the past both from the pilots and company.

Many hands have been played in the past (and sadly lost) and many lessons learned. We all know that the 'house will always win'. But it is well remembered for the casino that the new players must also 'win a few hands' to keep their continued interest in 'playing the game'.

The 'message' we're waiting for (for you cynics) will be the much anticipated upcoming HKPA rise - hopefully now is the time for our recognition of personal sacrifice for helping the company save money through some very difficult times and therefore helping everyone and the company to be in the best possible position for its future expansion plans.

Thinking of the games people play perhaps more fun would be an annual sports contest between pilots and management? - soccer, rugby, tennis, squash? ,.......legend has it even the Germans and Brits managed a game of soccer on X-mas day in no mans land. Best of 5 for 3 man long haul?
(Perhaps we can arrange a worldwide competition with our competing airlines too?....time we showed them who's best and nice to have a common foe.....CX 3, Emirates 1.....BA 2, CX 1....well there's always next year! What do you reckon Emirates you think you got it to beat us?? (Just don't let our Brits play in the rugby game).
24) reduced yearly working hours in lieu of 3 man crew? I believe virgin Atlantic are only contracted to 750hrs per year in their 3 man operation. Lifestyle is becoming the biggest attraction and pull for pilots these days it's seems. Everything needs balance.
25) overtime not compulsory but optional to work over the 84 marker.
26) announce at the start of the flight there will only be one PA in the cabin for turbulence at night time but individuals will be woken if their belts are not on. I.e. get the cabin crews to check belts visually (and wake individuals if necessary)...it disturbs the passengers with numerous announcements, I know I find it annoying when sleeping and would rather be woken if I've forgot. Other airlines do it this way much nicer for the customers experience then being woken with every PA in 2 languages!
27) produce an awe inspiring advertisement like the BA and virgin ones (see earlier links) to inspire the team....in fact, make it better.
28) 50% and 75% contracts, this may draw those on A scale and B scale housing who wish for a better lifestyle thus reducing the housing bill which can be channeled into an increase in HKPA. Also with more captains on part time, command upgrades will become quicker which in turn adds to an attractive advertisement for joining Cathay against Qatars 2-4 years, Ethiads 3-5 years, Emirates 5-7 years and BAs 7-8 years (short haul) upgrade time against our 12.
29) franchise out some restaurant space in CX City, perhaps a subway, or better still O'brians sandwich shop, pret-a-manger? Those sandwiches I think we'd all agree are hideous. Nando's for the S, Africans perhaps? A nice smoothie bar?Perhaps a company wide vote from our favourites?
30) renegotiate the ACARS package to reduce unnecessary usage. The savings could probably double HKPA on its own.
31) First officers 'trainers' for SOs (after cc). After all, pick any CX pilot and he can regurgitate the 8500 pages of manuals at will (we're checked that way), and other companies have training FOs and there is a lot of outside experience in this rank too, both military and commercial.
32)Introduce an SOP to check Rad alt against Baro ref, the number of times I used to see experienced guys asking for gear down by rote, half tired around 15miles 23R when it flashed in and out '2500' 'gear down'....then dragging it in burning that extra fuel...benefits of observing in the back seat.

RPs:
The first pawn has only just been moved and the latest chess game is now afoot. Whilst in the future we may inevitably end up in 'check mate' (all on HKPA) as all good (company) chess players should know, sometimes the queen must be sacrificed to get that all important win. That queen of course is those old age 'legacy airline' rostering practices to get the (whole) team back on side, inspire the outside pilots so as to meet the recruitment aims and put Cathay firmly back at the top where she belongs.

But who knows perhaps the old guard are right....
In which case for the pilots:
Emirates are now only asking for an ATPL and level 4 on their recruitment website - no other requirements specified.
And for the company:
Disclaimer; The above previous posts do not reflect the beliefs or opinions of the poster nor the wider pilot community. They are for amusement purposes only.

[crwkunt roll]

There are always too many variables in just 'one' check, not least higher than normal nerves when people's families are depending heavily on that rise just to survive, (and possibly pay back some accrued debt).
Ok I'll bite, so the Gen Y entitled brigade shall not be failed on line checks no matter how useless they are, because they have a family and a big debt?
Go and read "The 49ers" and then direct your comments to those whose families were left with nothing after being fired for "no reason".

[Reverend Green]

Not saying that. I'm saying why do a 'line check' 6 months after being qualified still with not much line experience - no other airline does this that I know of, it's normally at yearly intervals. Plus if they fail i.e. Told they are not at first officer standard, then what happens...the next day they continue to fly as wait for it 'first officers' but on reduced pay for another 6 months whilst doing the exact same job. I would rather see people jump straight into FO salary after being 'checked out' as a 'first officer' rather than on a reduced salary for their probationary period but I doubt that will happen. I'm not sure our captains are on a reduced salary for 6 mths? Perhaps they are.

With regard to the past I'm agreeing that the corporate culture is in desperate need of change to eradicate those problems - perhaps with more transparent policies? The commuters issues highlighted this very problem recently with people being treated in a variety of different ways.

[Reverend Green]

It also seems that many hide behind this 'saving face' excuse. There's no room for 'saving face' in this industry as that's what costs lives in the flight deck and what hinders progression in management. Hence why an open wide 'cultural changing', rewarding feedback systems are critical to circumnavigate the 'saving face' of taking the subordinates ideas and utilising, and implementing them for a better organisation.

33) cash rewards for the best ideas to improve the company and showing that employees ideas are not only valid but most importantly 'actioned' upon.

It appears that pilots have been continuously 'punished' for the last 15 years, so only those with the power to change it - can. The first step is showing us that things are turning around for the better and not worse.

34) accept that the pilots are actually the companies friends, and friends in need.....

[Plus852]

It also seems that many hide behind this 'saving face' excuse. There's no room for 'saving face' in this industry as that's what costs lives in the flight deck and what hinders progression in management. Hence why an open wide 'cultural changing', rewarding feedback systems are critical to circumnavigate the 'saving face' of taking the subordinates ideas and utilising, and implementing them for a better organisation.

33) cash rewards for the best ideas to improve the company and showing that employees ideas are not only valid but most importantly 'actioned' upon.

It appears that pilots have been continuously 'punished' for the last 15 years, so only those with the power to change it - can. The first step is showing us that things are turning around for the better and not worse.

34) accept that the pilots are actually the companies friends, and friends in need.....

Ok so what you going to do with all this ideas? I doubt writing them on pprune will lead to any change.

Perhaps writing a letter to AT?

[quadspeed]

Reverend;

You remind me of my 8 year old daughter.

"Why don't they just end all wars in the world?"

"why do countries spend money on weapons when people are hungry?"

"can I have a pony? "

The issues you're raising are merely symptoms of much more complex issues which you need to address first. Start with some basic politics and work your way into theories of management. I'll bet a case of whatever you're drinking that your views on those issues vastly differ from those who sign your paycheck.

At the end of the day it's their money and their trainset. If you don't like it, leave like many have done before you. That's the only card you've been dealt; play it as you see fit. This is neither the place or time for a revolution, I can promise you that.

[Oval3Holer]

Trainset = company
play the game = do your job

If people speak and write like children, it's no wonder they are treated like children.

[cxorcist]

We have some incredibly bright pilots at CX when not overwhelmed by outrage and other emotions. Unfortunately, the average pilot is not so bright, especially when it comes to industrial matters. As a pilot group, we ought to be exploiting the nexus between economics and safety. That's where we do our job and derive our value.

For example, who thinks that KLM pilot from the 777 video is overpaid? Truth is, we make hundreds of tiny decisions/actions every day which ensure that same level of safety. The vast majority of those decisions/actions are less dramatic and invisible to all but those in the cockpit, but they are very real nonetheless.

[flyhardmo]

Also what of the ones in HK coming to work with the unnecessary distractions on their mind of worrying about debt / cost of living etc. every time I fly with an SO thats all I hear.

They were all forewarned about the package, the cost of living, the SJS wearing off very quickly yet they are still coming. Lots of older more experienced SO's joining every week. :ugh::ugh:

[Flying Clog]

Yup, that sounds about right. Which makes them accepting the package on offer even more inexplicable/unforgivable...

:ugh:

It can only be the big shiny jet syndrome that attracts them. That will wear off pretty damn quickly when you're sat in your broom cupboard wanking.

:D

[geh065]

Everyone needs a foot into the industry. If you lot think accepting this job is so terrible, please post the alternatives which people have considering the experience levels they have.

A scalers said all the same things when you guys accepted B scale to come here for your shiny jet and how you are all hypocritically moaning about the same thing.

Granted, CX is not the airline it used to be and things are going downhill very fast but I would love to hear of the alternatives the new joiners have.

[Threethirty]

Emirates by the looks of it, all you need now is an ATPL. Can see a few of our S/O's leaving for this.

http://www.pprune.org/middle-east/565226-lowered-requirements-emirates.html

[positionalpor]

Perhaps the HKAOA needs to provide real and accurate info to those who are considering a career with CX. In other words, to have a website up where it explains the reality of the situation.

[positionalpor]

I'm sick of living like a scrubber and a refugee!"
Good sense of humor. Funny indeed

The Aoa site is only accessible after you join cx, therefore " potential" pilots cannot access the nitty and gritty.

Moreover, at times this site is considered for the extreme unhappy and some might shy away from it. Oh well, at least provide another perspective on the reality here.

[Captain Dart]

...and here's another clue: you don't even have to log in!