Question for examiners

[Gemeen_Aapje]

Hi all

I'm hoping an examiner could help me clear something up as I'm getting conflicting information.

-I have a UK PPL license (JAA, to be converted to EASA)
-I've just completed 12 hours to have my SEP renewed by experience
-I live/work in the Netherlands, where a Dutch examiner at my local flying club has signed my SEP renewal form
-I've not completed a skills test, just the necessary 1 hour with instructor


Now, I was just talking to the CAA about the EASA conversion and mentioned my SEP situation, to which they informed my that a non-UK examiner is NOT entitled to sign-off SEP renewals by EXPERIENCE, but is only permitted to perform a skills test (and then sign off SEP renewal).

This seems like complete nonsense to me. The CAA guy also confirmed it with another department. I find it really hard to believe that a Dutch examiner is not allowed to sign off my 12 hours and that I must pay £88 to the UK CAA to have them check my 12 hours (that's £16 more than than the EASA conversion!)

Feeling really frustrated with everything if I'm honest. Any help you could give would be appreciated.

Thanks
M

[Pete O'Tewbe]

I'm not sure what help you are after. It is what it is.

From Annex VI to Commission Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011 (as amended):

ARA.FCL.215 Validity period

(a) [..]

(b) [..]

(c) The competent authority, or an examiner specifically authorised for that purpose by the competent authority, shall enter the expiry date on the licence or the certificate.

(d) [..]

Was/is your Dutch examiner "specifically authorised for that purpose by the competent authority" i.e. in this case, the UK CAA? Assuming that he was/is not, then, in my opinion, the CAA is technically correct, as frustrating and nonsensical as it may seem.

[Mach Jump]

Yes. The CAA are correct.

EASA left it to national authorities how to deal with revalidations by experience,
and the UK CAA chose to give a blanket authorisation to all holders of UK issued EASA Examiner Authorisations to complete the administrative action (signing your licence, and sending in the form) to revalidate your SEP by experience.

Other, non UK EASA Examiners can request authorisation on a 'one off' basis to do this, but I don't know of any who have, yet.

Any EASA examiner can perform the Renewal Flight Test but they must complete the National Standardisation procedure first.

I know it's frustrating, but it's better than some National Authorities who have you send your licence to them to be signed, and pay a whacking fee!


MJ:ok:

[Whopity]

and that I must pay £88 to the UK CAA to have them check my 12 hours Clearly there is no need to do this, just find a UK Examiner or indeed FI with the ability to sign you off. It must of course be done prior to the expiry date and most Examiners will not charge for this.

[Gemeen_Aapje]

Thanks for all your replies.

Only 2 problems....

1) I'm in Holland, I have no access to a UK examiner. Nor will I have for a long time.
2) The expiry date of my SEP was on Monday. I had a Dutch examiner sign it on Monday. So now it's no longer valid then :-(

I only called the CAA to ask a question about the EASA conversion, then got slammed with this bureaucratic nonsense.

What do I do now then, knowing that my SEP has expired and that I incorrectly had an incorrect examiner sign it off?

[Mach Jump]

As your SEP has now expired, You need to do a Renewal Proficiency Check(PC) with an Examiner, Who will sign your Certificate of Renewal in your Licence.

Before doing this, you will have to go to an ATO/RF(Flying School) and have them assess how much, if any, refresher training you will need to pass the PC.

Once you have completed the training, if any, they must give you a Course Completion Certificate (no matter if you were required to do any training or not) which you must present to the Examiner, before the PC.

Your Examiner must also complete the National Standardisation, before carrying out the PC, if he/she is not a UK Authorised Examiner.

I would suggest that, as your Examiner has made the mistake of signing your Certificate of Revalidation, he may be sympathetic to your plight.


MJ:ok:

[Gemeen_Aapje]

Please tell me you're joking?!?!?

What if I send to the CAA to sign-off my SEP hours?? I gained all my hours before the end date

[Level Attitude]

What if I send to the CAA to sign-off my SEP hours?? I gained all my hours before the end date Experience can only be used to Revalidate an SEP Rating (ie extend the time of a currently valid Rating). As yours has now expired it is no longer valid so you require a Renewal, the process being as outlined by MJ.

The problem is that, although EASA is on set of Licensing Rules, Examiner Authorisations are given by the National Competent Authorities and 'foreign' Examiners do not always know, or check, what they are authorised to do on behalf of the CAA.

Did your Examiner, in fact, say "Happy to sign, but don't know if it's valid"?

You do seem to have left yourself no leeway: SEP expires on Monday, you go and see an Examiner on Monday.

For the benefit of anyone else reading this Thread, if you don't know the requirements or, even if you do but just haven't met them yet, please start making enquiries at least 3 months before expiry of any Rating.

Gemeen_Aapje,
There may be a possibility of a solution to your predicament, without having to Renew:

There was a Thread along similar lines a few months ago whereby the 'foreign' Examiner's signature was (apparently) deemed to be acceptable.

Although I would recommend not flying until clarified. If you do not want to fly a Renewal LPC then I think you have two options:

1) Email the CAA asking them to confirm that your Examiner's signature is valid.
or
2) Apply for your EASA Licence, with all your current paperwork.
If your SEP rating comes back valid on your Part-FCL Licence you are good to go.
If it doesn't, then an LPC will Renew it. (Make sure any Dutch Examiner has got the process correct from the CAA)

[Gemeen_Aapje]

Ok so just apply and see how it goes basically? Worst case scenario is the CAA contact me saying I have to do a skills test / prof check.

FYI I did start looking into this a few months back. Everything I was reading pointed me in this direction - that a Non-UK Examiner CAN sign off SEP under new EASA rules. Both he and myself thought this was no problem to do.

Recently I've had a LOT of flights cancelled because of the weather (8kt crosswind is already too much for the little plane I was trying to build my hours on). Basically I had a lot going against me for a few months and last weekend I got my hours finally completed just on time.

What does it take for a Dutch examiner to be authorised by the CAA to do a UK test? Will he have to go through a lot of training etc? As a busy commercial pilot I doubt he will have the time to do all of that.

It's really ridiculous all of this. A sign of European countries still not working well together in my opinion. Feeling really bummed about it all.

:-(

[Whopity]

Ok so just apply and see how it goes basically? Don't waste your time the answer is that it has expired and you now have to do a renewal test as stated.
What does it take for a Dutch examiner to be authorised by the CAA to do a UK test? This is not a problem, getting permission to sign the rating is more difficult. Two documents with the answers:

IN2015-050 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/InformationNotice2015050.pdf)

EASA Examiner Differences Doc (http://easa.europa.eu/system/files/dfu/Examiner%20Differences%20Document_version_04_2014.pdf)

As you are living in Holland and have trouble finding a UK FI or Examiner it would surely make sense to change your State of Licence Issue to the Netherlands.

[DirtyProp]

It's really ridiculous all of this. A sign of European countries still not working well together in my opinion. Feeling really bummed about it all.

:-(
Welcome to (b)euro-crap land.

[Gemeen_Aapje]

Whopity,
You said "it would make sense to change your State of Licence Issue to the Netherlands."

I think I now agree.

Only, how do I best go about it? I currently have a UK JAA PPL, not EASA. Can I directly convert it to NL-Issued EASA and maybe keep my SEP rating in the process? I think it will for sure make my life easier in future.

Would be a shame if I first have to do the SEP skills test, then send off to the UK to convert to EASA (with all the costs) and then again have to get the NL authority to convert to a NL-EASA license.

I know from experience the Dutch authorities (with everything, driving, taxes, etc) are far more disorganised and b(euro)cratic than the UK are!

Thanks again!

[pembroke]

You could simply drive to Kent , complete any training and test in a C152 or other SEP and go through the paperwork/attestation for an EASA Part FCL licence, not forgetting the SRG 1199, Eng. Lang. prof. , level 6. PM me if I can help.

[Whopity]

To change your State of Licence issue to the Netherlands will require you to fill in the appropriate form from the ILT (http://www.ilent.nl/onderwerpen/transport/luchtvaart/). The CAA forrm (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1136Issue08.pdf) is only to transfer to the UK,

It would be a good idea to check with the ILT first, as it may be cheaper to transfer your licence and then renew the Class rating; remember, no class rating that has expired, will appear on a newly issued EASA licence.

[Gemeen_Aapje]

Do you know if they check with the original issuing authority, or do they just take what's written in the license/cert of reval?

I ask because I do now have a signed certificate of revalidation from a Dutch examiner. So if they accept that then great. But if they call the CAA who say "no it's expired" then it's not good. In any case I think for the long-term it's necessary to get it converted. And if my Dutch examiner at the flying club here can just do some circuits with me to renew my SEP then fine.

Nothing is ever simple in aviation is it? :-D

[Pete O'Tewbe]

And if my Dutch examiner at the flying club here can just do some circuits with me to renew my SEP then fine

A proficiency check for the purpose of renewal of a class rating shall be carried out in accordance with Appendix 9 to Part-FCL.

For the content, see here (http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2011:311:0001:0193:EN:PDF) starting at page 118, or here (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/SRG1157Issue05.pdf).

[Whopity]

Do you know if they check with the original issuing authorityThe principal of EASA is that one State accepts certificates issued by another State. In changing your State of Licence issue, by definition, that is the State that holds your medical records, so on transfer they will need to contact the UK CAA to obtain those records.

[chrisbl]

Go back to the school where the examiner is based, talk to the Head of training along with the examiner and explain the predicament.


If sense prevails and the ATO knows you and your experience they will probably sign you off as no further training is required, then you can take the LPC after the examiner follows the process laid out in IN-2015/050
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/InformationNotice2015050.pdf


Assuming you pass all he needs to do is send of the Test report in accordance with the instructions he gets from the CAA and re-sign your ratings page with the test date etc.


When you are ready send everything off to get an EASA licence.


No need to make a drama of it, just resolve it.


And for the future, if getting a CAA authorised examiner to do your revalidation by experience is not practical, instead of doing the hour with the instructor, go back to your examiner who by now will know the procedure and do the LPC. That way you don't even need to knock up the 12 hours as well.


Its less hassle than changing your State of licence issue. To be honest, the UK CAA are the best regarding medicals and more likely to be constructive that other states. I have got someone through the issues with diabetes and the CAA bless them are really having to battle in EASA land to prove that diabetics can be safe pilots.

[Whopity]

And for the future, if getting a CAA authorised examiner to do your revalidation by experience is not practical,You only need a FI/CRI with a UK issued licence, who has the privileges to sign off a Certificate of Experience. All such instructors are being authorised on their next CAA licence page re-issue or on application.