UA captain flushed his ammunition down the toilet in flight

[deptrai]

you couldn't make up this story:

A United Boeing 767-400, registration N69059 performing flight UA-104 (dep Jun 23rd) from Houston,TX (USA) to Munich (Germany), was enroute when the captain disposed of ammunition (10 bullets) in his possession into the toilet.

A source had told The Aviation Herald that the aircraft was enroute, when the captain discovered that he was still carrying ammunition consisting of 10 bullets in his luggage, the ammunition not being permitted to be taken into Germany. The captain therefore decided to get rid of the ammunition and disposed of the ammunication into a waste bin. "Unfortunately" a passenger lost her ring in flight, the flight attendants assisted in the search for the lost ring and also checked the waste bins. A flight attendant thus discovered the bullets, dutifully brought and reported the bullets to the captain, who now decided to ultimately get rid of the bullets and dumped them down the toilet. Later the flight attendant inquired again about the bullets, the captain realized that she would file a report, explained the situation to her and informed ground. The aircraft was taken to a remote parking position after landing, airport fire fighters used protective suits while emptying and filtering the waste tanks, recovered 6 bullets in that search, Germany's Luftfahrtbundesamt (LBA) grounded the aircraft. A second search discovered the remaining 4 bullets, too, and the aircraft was able to depart for its return flight with a delay of 4 hours.

The Aviation Herald tried to verify the occurrence over the next almost two weeks, stating in all inquiries to Authorities in Germany and the USA that the story is so extremely unbelievable that it must be true, but remained unsuccessful. Almost about to give up almost two weeks later and stop monitoring the occurrence The Aviation Herald succeeded in getting a first official confirmation from Munich Airport, which confirmed the aircraft had been directed to a remote parking position and departed with a delay, Munich Airport however did not want to comment further on the event.

Dr. Simone Hilgers, Press Spokeswoman of Upper Bavaria's Government, told the Aviation Herald that they are aware of the occurrence.

He could simply contact customs on arrival, I'm sure they would have disposed of the ammo safely, and most probably without making a fuzz. They have bigger fish to fry than someone who accidentally brings a few bullets and declares his honest mistake. I assume he's painfully aware of this now.

must have been fun for the firefighters to search for the bullets :\

http://avherald.com/h?article=488ffe1c

[Jet Jockey A4]

Curious...

Do any of the US airlines that allow pilots to carry guns have some sort of safety box or safe in the cockpit where they could store their ammo and guns?

[mikedreamer787]

Yep as per deptrai's comment. Radio ahead, admit the error/oversight and it would've kept his snout out of the sensationalist media.

[Less Hair]

To put it in a (public!) waste bin first and then trying to flush it is no concept to dispose of stuff like this. Just tell it to the cops/customs and they won't rip off your head.

He had a reason to have ammo before. So it should be no big deal to anybody.

[bcgallacher]

This idiot is regarded as competent to carry a loaded firearm in a cockpit ?

[Capt Claret]

bcgallacher +1. Guns don't belong on aeroplanes. :ugh:

[West Coast]

I'll alert the military then.

[parabellum]

it would've kept his snout out of the sensationalist media.

Not so I'm afraid. Journos monitor most aviation frequencies along with a million spotters, the conversation would have been recorded and handed to the media even before the aircraft landed.

Don't agree with you Mr bcgallacher, 9/11 may never have happened had those pilots had handguns available to them.

[Intruder]

This idiot is regarded as competent to carry a loaded firearm in a cockpit ?
I didn't see anything indicating he was an FFDO.

IF he was, I sincerely hope he WAS, and no longer IS!

[TWT]

I don't see where it was mentioned that he was in possession of a firearm,only mentions ammunition.

[glad rag]

This idiot is regarded as competent to carry a loaded firearm in a cockpit ?

No, but that doesn't stop other idiots jumping on their favourite bandwagon-again.:ugh:

[rottenray]

First the pilot flushes them down the biff, and it takes two searches of the tank to find them.

Later in the story, a FA finds them in a bin after a passenger loses a ring.

Too, too many conflicts here. Hopefully the real tale will come out.

Until it does, well, you know the drill.

Divide into two groups, one yelling for decapitation or castration of the pilot, the other yelling 'wait for the report.'

Both groups need to give it their all for this to work.

Be at it boys, make us proud!

[Schnowzer]

He'd be in more trouble carrying a banana into Australia and would probably get a bigger fine I suspect.

[captainsmiffy]

Too true, Schnowzer!!

Surely, though, shouldnt the question here be "how did he get on board, through home base security, with a stash of ammunition?" (Or did I miss the explanation of this one?). The rest is entirely consistent with a bloke realising that he has screwed up and trying to sort it without getting into trouble. Good plan, fell short in its execution through sheer bad luck! Along the lines of the hapless character in 'The worst week of my life'.....

[ekwhistleblower]

Brings new meaning to the phrase "sweating bullets!"

[vapilot2004]

There are a lot of places our otherwise innocent guy could have stashed that ammo and nobody would have known. That goes to a point about things like this - it is often not the original sin that nails a person making an honest mistake. It is getting caught hiding the transgression that gets people into the most trouble.

[ironbutt57]

hmmm....no FORDEC in that decision..just leave them stashed in the flight deck, and advise the outgoing crew...

[Petercwelch]

About nothing. We all realize bullets are no risk except if burned perhaps. Capt. Should have reported and explained. Is there too little common sense flexibility in Germany. Love "he didn't slip it in his copilot's pocket comment!

[ShotOne]

"How did they get on board.." Perhaps you're not aware that the U.S. has a federal flight deck officer programme (FFDO) where selected and trained volunteer pilots are issued firearms in order to deter and defend against hijack attempts. Whatever your views onthe rights and wrongs, had an FFDO been on board on 9/11, that date would now be less memorable. Also, there have been numerous screw-ups by skymarshals and armed police; in one case a bar of plastic explosive being left on board. For some reason these don't attract the same publicity and crticism as a mistake by a pilot.

[BDD]

He must have been a FFDO otherwise, how would he have gotten the ammunition past security personal at his home base. I guess security could have missed it.

BDD

[IBMJunkman]

About nothing. We all realize bullets are no risk except if burned perhaps.

FYI

http://youtu.be/3SlOXowwC4c

[Airbubba]

Surely, though, shouldnt the question here be "how did he get on board, through home base security, with a stash of ammunition?" (Or did I miss the explanation of this one?).

Every year one or two colleagues seem to have an incident with something accidentally brought to work.

For whatever reason, many coworkers who are gun enthusiasts choose to use the same duffel bag for shooting at the range and going on a trip. Inevitably, bullets and even guns end up going though security, usually, but not always, found on the first inspection.

Often there is little publicity other than a note in the chief pilot's bulletin saying be more careful out there.

hmmm....no FORDEC in that decision..just leave them stashed in the flight deck, and advise the outgoing crew...

And let the other crew deal with it in the USA? :confused: Maybe that's how it would be done back in the day but you would be putting a lot more careers on the line than yours if you did that now and you got caught in my opinion.

I certainly agree that in the modern blame game workplace honesty is often not the best policy if you can avoid raising the issue at all. As time goes on I'm less likely to file safety reports and do detailed logbook write-ups after seeing the company and feds increasingly second guess operational decisions from the comfort of a cubicle.

He'd be in more trouble carrying a banana into Australia and would probably get a bigger fine I suspect.

Quite possibly. :)

In the very few cases I've been briefed on in recent years, the threatened punishments for accidentally bringing guns and ammo to work have varied considerably.

One coworker says he was given a solemn company hearing, and was afraid he would lose his job (temporarily of course, he's in the union). At the end the chief of airline security shook his hand, thanked him for his honesty and said his testimony would help close loopholes in the screening process. He was returned to the line with no loss of pay.

Another colleague had her case resolved months later with a letter from the TSA and a phone conference with union and TSA lawyers and an administrative law judge. She had to pay a $1300 fine, had a sealed judgment and no criminal record from what she said.

A third acquaintance somehow got local law enforcement involved and was facing felony weapons charges. He felt uncomfortable with the union legal representation and hired his own lawyer. After paying tens of thousands of dollars in legal fees all charges were eventually dropped.

It will comfort the flying public to know that those of us who are FFDO's are screened just like other crewmembers to make sure we are not carrying scissors while transporting our H&K .40 caliber. :ok:

[deptrai]

hmmm....no FORDEC in that decision..just leave them stashed in the flight deck, and advise the outgoing crew...

are you serious? :) there's a fair chance they'll say, "no thanks", and give them to German customs/police, you'd be better off doing that yourself. And as Airbubba said, if they would bring the bullets to the US, then they're not only illegaly importing bullets into the US, it will also be obvious to customs someone illegaly exported them...better just tell it as it is immediately, and admit a mistake, rather than trying to be clever :)

[Intruder]

He must have been a FFDO otherwise, how would he have gotten the ammunition past security personal at his home base. I guess security could have missed it.
FFDO has nothing to do with it. More likely he did not go through security, but went through a KCM portal.

More likely is he used that bag for a trip to the range with his personal gun, and failed to empty it completely. That part is understandable and forgivable. However, his actions on the airplane are not -- they were idiotic and dangerous. He even had a second chance when the FA found them in the bin, but again chose idiocy.

[gcal]

Any volunteers to do a thorough search of the blue stuff the next time it happens?

[Basil]

IF as reported, I don't think that inadvertently carrying the ammo on board was at all important. What I do think is very worrying is the detachment from reality demonstrated by the captain who seemed to think that he could just make the problem go away.
I would not wish to be flown by such a personality.

[deptrai]

The point of this story is...everyone can unintentionally make an honest mistake. Admit it, and you'll be ok. You acted in good faith. No bad or dishonest intentions. But then, even though it's human to try to cover up mistakes, the cover-up - unlike the original mistake - is intentional, and can be construed as bad faith. That's a big difference. If you get caught covering up mistakes, you just turned an innocent mistake into intentional deception. All that being said, German authorities didn't pursue him, and most people seem to have some empathy with him when he finally laid all cards on the table. There but for the grace of God comes to my mind again, I wouldn't crucify him.

[silvertate]

My ten year old son gave me a similar problem.

There's me in uniform sending him off on a flight to see mum (usual pilot family), when there is a big kerfuffle in security, and I get an urgent PA to see them IMMEDIATELY.

Turns out he had taken two clips of .303 bullets in his bag, to show his mates. Red faces all round, as I try to explain. But what annoyed me is that the brain-dead security team and manager did not know the difference between live rounds and disabled dummy rounds - they had no firing caps.

But security would not accept the bullets, so I then had two clips of bullets in MY bag. Since the offices were empty I stashed them in the crew room, until I returned, and hoped nobody else would find them. Enough trouble for one day.

Thanks, son....

[foxcharliep2]

Hmmm, great logic silvertate :ugh:

Your 10-year old takes 2 clips of bullets though security and the security team and manager is "brain dead" according to you as they cannot tell live rounds from dummy ... :confused:

WTF is a 10 year old doing with 2 clips of bullets at an airport ... and who is "brain dead" here :mad:

[MajorLemond]

Waste bin fire, lav smoke warning, flighties go in to investigate... Shootout in the lavatory! :}

[vancouv]

silvertate - foxcharliep2 is right, you're the brain dead one in that story - doubly so as you chose to share it

[paull]

I sympathise with the guy about the initial error (I checked-in a jacket with shotgun cartrides in the pocket that I did not know about :O ).

What worries me is the action afterwards, I prefer pilot's who make mistakes to own up rather than cover-up.

[Una Due Tfc]

I'm assuming the chemicals in the lav tanks wouldn't have any negative effects on the bullets? Like ya know, set them off? And that the Captain knew this?

[FakePilot]

In defense of silvertate, consider that no one actually ended up in jail. Because they weren't "bullets", they just looked like it. More concerning is that someone tasked with transportation security could not correctly identify a legally owned item.

Knowing little kid logic he probably asked "Can I show my friends?" without context and then figured that meant even friends you had to fly to see.

[jonseagull]

you think this is bad, try taking a tennis racquet into Cancun.

[Intruder]

I'm assuming the chemicals in the lav tanks wouldn't have any negative effects on the bullets? Like ya know, set them off? And that the Captain knew this?
Hmmm... No impacts on the primers possible when flushed, cleaned, purged, or transported? No possibility the solid sludge remnants may be later incinerated? :ugh:

As for the kid and the empty cartridges, he should have been taught to have more respect for them. He should know enough to AT LEAST ask mom or dad if he can take them to EACH specific place outside the house. Taking them to school, for example, could get him suspended or expelled...

[silvertate]

great logic silvertate

Your 10-year old takes 2 clips of bullets though security and the security team and manager is "brain dead"



You don't have kids, do you...? Or do you strip search them before every outing?

As to security, their job is to identify security breaches, including illicit munitions. If security does not know what a bullet looks like, then what do they know? It is no wonder we have a security system that concentrates on nail scissors, baby's milk, and yougurts, rather than real security issues.

Tate

[Herod]

Silvertate. Do you expect the security team to be munitions experts? As far as they are concerned, a bullet is a bullet. It seems to me that they were doing their job, and doing it correctly.

[silvertate]

Do you expect the security team to be munitions experts?




Yes, that is their job. They are supposed to be there to keep us safe from explosives and other weapons, not just from little old ladies with knitting needles, so they should have an idea what those weapons and explosives look like. To threaten calling in the bomb squad and closing down a major international terminal because a nine-year old kid has some toys, is unprofessional and a waste of everyone's time and money.

And you may find that the captain with bullets had this in mind when he made his unsound judgement. We all know how keen security are to take away your pass, and make you unemployed and unemployable, and if this had already happened amongst his work colleagues, you can bet it would be a part of the decision-making process. Not condoning his ultimate decision of course, but there is a reason for everything - especially when dealing with an intelligent person who has to make critical decisions every day.

So what did lead a rational professional to make such an unsound judgement? Was over-zealous security one of the holes in the Swiss cheese?

Tate

[Chu Chu]

Wouldn't surprise me if the screeners are trained to treat inert items the same as live ones. Otherwise, the folks who test their performance would have to use live items.

[Capi_Cafre']

...9/11 may never have happened had those pilots had handguns available to them.


Simply not training pilots to cooperate with hijackers would have been sufficient.

[421dog]

You realize that even magnum rifle rounds consumed in a violent conflagration will fly about 10 feet unconstrained and will stop upon running into just about anything. (I've seen hundreds burned in rusty 55 gallon drums, and never seen one make it out through the sides. The case ruptures and the bullet just sort of falls out) I suppose they might "put an eye out" but the likelihood that anyone would be significantly damaged by a little handgun round in a metal sewage tank or garbage can in an airplane which isn't on fire, is really fairly miniscule.

[West Coast]

Simply not training pilots to cooperate with hijackers would have been sufficient.

Really? The door could have been breached easily if the hijackers has needed to.

[MarkerInbound]

The United Captain was used to dealing with this level of security, he probably couldn't imagine what the German Polizei would do.


TSA confiscates sock monkey's toy gun - NBC News (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/other/tsa-confiscates-sock-monkeys-toy-gun-f2D11722377)

[Kitiara]

About nothing. We all realize bullets are no risk except if burned perhaps.

I would strongly disagree with you on this point. 25 years ago I was developing my love of flying via the RAF section of the CCF. Regrettably a colleague dropped a brick onto a box of .22 ammunition and managed to detonate 4 rounds.

My knee was damaged badly enough by being hit with shrapnel that I was forced to give up climbing, flying and running for years.

Ammunition is safe when handled with the respect and care it is due. When it is not, then accidents are a serious risk.

[oliver2002]

You are not even allowed to take toy guns airside as SLF :) Following silvertate's line of argumentation, I could take an empty unloaded gun airside too... ;)

[vancouv]

silvertate - there's a lot of rubbish posted on PPRuNe, but to argue that someone with bullets, whether live or not, should be smilingly waved through security tops them all

[Herod]

he had taken two clips of .303 bullets in his bag

a nine-year old kid has some toys

I'm sorry, but your definition of "toys" is considerably different from mine.

[Evanelpus]

First the pilot flushes them down the biff

Hopefully, his career will follow the same path......what a string!:ugh:

[West Coast]

A poor decision shouldn't necessarily be career ending.

[silvertate]

vancouv

to argue that someone with bullets, whether live or not, should be smilingly waved through security tops them all.




Who is arguing that a kid can take dummy bullets through security?? Don't be such as asssss. Never heard such a stupid thing said on these forums. I sincerely hope you are not crew.

What I said, if you care to look, is that security were being dumb-asses for trying to close down the terminal because a kid has some toys. Big difference, matey, big difference.

A professional security team would say 'sorry son no toys, and don't you ever do that again'. Clip him round the ear if they like - but don't freak out and try to call a swat-team because of some toys. Unprofessional, with a capital 'stupid'.

Do you get it now?

[Sunfish]

421 has it correctly. The usual calibres of ammunition are harmless without a firearm, even when incinerated, they are no danger to the aircraft and of minimal danger to crew and pax.

This is a non event.

[flyingchanges]

Simply not training pilots to cooperate with hijackers would have been sufficient.

What part of having your throat slit or eyes cut out constitutes cooperating with hijackers?

[deptrai]

421 has it correctly. The usual calibres of ammunition are harmless without a firearm, even when incinerated, they are no danger to the aircraft and of minimal danger to crew and pax.

This is a non event.

Security have been trained to look for more if someone brings bullets, or an empty magazine, or a part of a firearm. Not so surprising really. A dozen people could bring items that aren't dangerous alone, but could be assembled into something dangerous. Hand-loading bullets on board would be feasible, as would assembling a firearm from parts. Agree that this is a non-event. But I do understand the reaction of German authorities. Then again all the tax free liquor bottles also make formidable weapons...

[A Squared]

He even had a second chance when the FA found them in the bin, but again chose idiocy.

That's the irony, is that when the ammunition was found in the trash bin, he was handed a way out on a platter. " Hmmmm, I wonder where those came from and how they got in the trash bin.????" Oh well, hand them to me and we'll give them to the authorities on arrival. Pull into the gate, have the gate agent summon the local gendarmes: " we found these in the trash bin ... no clue how they got there. "

[aerobat77]

The gun laws in germany are extremly tight and posession and carry of live ammunition without permission ( which he surely did not have for germany ) is nothing else than a criminal act. So thats the problem.

[A Squared]

The gun laws in germany are extremly tight and posession and carry of live ammunition without permission ( which he surely did not have for germany ) is nothing else than a criminal act. So thats the problem.

Right, but once they found the ammunition in the trash bin, which came from who knows where, the captain only took possession of that ammunition of unknown origin in order to turn it over the the proper authorities at the very soonest possible moment.

Even the Germans wouldn't consider him to be in violation of the law under those circumstances.

[aerobat77]

@ squared : doing it that way would be a smart move instead of saying he was the ammunition owner after the stewardess already found it . But it might have triggered a violent investigation in munich how and why live ammo found its way to that aircraft. Maybe it was not an option anymore for him because the copilot already knew it was captains ammo. I personally would have flushed it down the toilet immediately and nobody would ever notice. Putting it in the waste bin is always a risk the cleaning stuff will find it.