Can I hour build with a commercial company but not get paid with a PPL H

[heli10]

Hey People,

Im very new to this so please keep with me... ANY help will greatly received!

Im starting my PPL H in a couple of months with the progression to CPL H and flight instructor hopefully.

Im going to have to try and fund it myself so im looking to save where I can :uhoh:

My plan is to do my PPL H in an R22, or may be one of the new Gumbali, then do a type conversion for the AW 109 with the hope to do some hour building with some company's in the number 2 seat for no money or happy to pay some.

What im not sure about is if this is legal / possible, I know you cant earn money if you don't have a CPL H but can you still fly commercially to build hours??.

Obviously I appreciate that there are going to be very few company's willing to entertain the idea, but im just looking for the experience for the future.

Also recommendations for good training schools please...

What do you all think??

Cheers....

[Dash8driver1312]

Avoid pay to fly. Don't work for nothing. That goes for all aviation.

[JTobias]

Hi,

If I were you, I'd hide behind something as there likely to be a sh*t storm heading your way - unless the PPruners take some pity on you!! I'll try to soften the blow for you!

Firstly, good luck with the PPL (H) it's challenging and rewarding and an amazing achievement. You'll be in a very small worldwide club!

Now for the reality check. You're proposing to jump straight from a PPL(H) achieved in an R22 and then move straight into a 109? Whilst theoretically (and probably practically) possible in reality it's probably highly unlikely. It's a bit like taking a rowing boat out on a local lake and expecting your capable of Commanding a cruise liner the following week!

The R22 is a VFR, single engined piston engined training machine and the 109 is a SPIFR, twin engined, turbine machine with SAS, autopilot, FADEC and capable of carrying 7 POB. Realistically you're gonna need 150 hours post PPL before you should be thinking about a (single engine) turbine, and then probably a further 500 turbine hours before you're even ready to consider a twin.

As far as your CPL (H) is concerned I think you need 150 hrs P1 before you're eligible to begin a course. You're then required to undertake a further 40 hrs training before taking a test. Once you have this you'll need a further 40 hrs training for your FI rating.

As far as sitting in the P2 seat is concerned you've probably more chance of winning the lottery two weeks running. Best of luck though!

Joel :ugh:

[ShyTorque]

Strictly speaking, as far as hour building goes, there is no P2 seat in an AW109 because it's a single pilot machine. There's nothing to stop you sitting there (as a passenger) but you cannot claim any hours towards a licence.

As for getting "let loose" as captain in one after "graduating" in the R22....you wouldn't get any operator to agree. It's a little like expecting drive a Ferarri for a living shortly after passing your driving test in a Nissan Micra.

[SilsoeSid]

.. you've probably more chance of winning the lottery two weeks running.

Quite good odds then !


Luckiest couple on earth wins the lottery THREE times in one month | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2592923/Couple-wins-lottery-three-times-month.html)

Calvin and Zatera Spencer hit the jackpot with a $1million win in the Powerball lottery earlier this month.
Two weeks later, on March 26, they won $50,000 on a Pick 4 game and the following day scored a further $1million prize on a scratch card.



How about the chance of winning the same lottery draw twice?

Man Doubles His Luck to Win Same Lottery Twice - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/man-beats-97-trillion-odds-win-lottery/story?id=26432878)

Forgetting that his family had gifted him a season pass to the Massachusetts State Lottery Lucky for Life drawing with their lucky numbers, Stokes bought a second ticket with the exact same numbers on Monday.

:ok:

[whoknows idont]

A commercial flight is not defined by the salary of the pilot but probably rather by the commercial intention of the operator.
Common sense suggests that a commercially operated aircraft requires a commercial pilot.

From the EASA hp:
The term 'commercial operation' is defined in Article 3 of the Basic Regulation as follows:

'Commercial operation' shall mean any operation of an aircraft, in return for remuneration or other valuable consideration, which is available to the public or, when not made available to the public, which is performed under a contract between an operator and a customer, where the latter has no control over the operator.


from caa.co.uk:
The EASA PPL(H) allows you to fly EASA Helicopters registered in the EU provided that you maintain a valid medical certificate and ratings.

Licence holders can fly on an unpaid basis as a Pilot in Command (PIC) or co-pilot on non-commercial helicopter flights.

[JTobias]

Silsoe,

Any idea where that couple bought their tickets ???? :}

[krypton_john]

It's nice that the replies to the OP have been gentle.

What the OP needs to know is that there are lots of professional pilots out there finding it tough to get work and make a living, so it is upsetting when newbies offer to work for free and steal their living from under them.

[Hughes500]

The answer to your question is yes but .........
In my company in Devon we run a rolling rota with all the PPL's we have trained that allow them to fly the machines at half price if they need to be positioned to jobs, maintenance etc etc.
Last year one of my PPL's got about 30 hours on a turbine in return for help as ground crew in load lifting / pleasure flying operations !
Others got half price flying on the pistons taking them to maintenance etc etc

[heli10]

Kryton John

Sorry I think Ive miss understood me being a newbie,

I was under the impression that until you have enough hours (155 I Think) to take and complete the CPL H you cant get paid, But please let me know there is anyone out there paying people to hour build??:confused:

Not trying to upset anyone,

Cheers

[heli10]

Hey Joel,

Thanks for the info, Probably going to be best to hour build in the r22 as a hell of alot cheaper, Just thought it might be a way forward in the AW 109 as every charter company seems to have at least one!!

I appreciate its a whole different kettle of fish, and as some one else has said there is no p2 seat on the 109 so cant build hours from there, and no one in the right mind will let some one with 50 hours fly one... one day though... watch this space!

Cheers though!!:ok:

[heli10]

Hi Hughes500,

Now thats the sort of thing i was talking about... :ok:

Does your company run any PPL H / CPL H Training, if so can you pin me an email with a link.

Cheers

[megan]

allow them to fly the machines at half price if they need to be positioned to jobs, maintenance.........Others got half price flying on the pistons taking them to maintenance That's big of you....NOT. As bad as guys doing commercial work for free, or in some airlines case, paying to sit in the copilot seat.

[Camp Freddie]

That's big of you....NOT

I don't think there is any conflict here with a commercial pilot trying to make a living.

When I had my PPL but no FI/CPL, the organisation I did the hourbuulding with gave me approx 30 hours free flights on the basis that I paid for 1 sector and they paid for the return sector (it was normally swopping aircraft between bases), I was not capable of earning money and it helped the organisation out as they had less money lost on dead sectors.

There was no dodgy commercial flights here. What we don't want is actual commercial flights where the pilot is flying for free or even worse paying to fly, when the pax are paying as well.

what Hughes500 suggests is "win,win" IMO

[Hughes500]

Megan

Tell you what mate I won't bother helping someone up the ladder. The machine goes with a commercial pilot who is paid but he doesn't log the hours the ppl guy does I am not interested in logging hours as it doesn't effect me any more
As CF says it is a win win, in fact the ppl gets a huge amount of experience at a fraction of normal cost.
Now tell me what would you prefer to do hire a S300 to hour build or fly a Hughes 500 / 341 at the same cost ?

[VeeAny]

There are always two sides to the story and 15 years ago I turned down the chance to do some 1/2 price hour building in a 206 which needed to go somewhere prior to tasking, but now I would offer that to an hour builder with a discount if the opportunity arose, my viewpoint has changed and I would now take the opportunity to fly turbines for less money, the location would not matter to me, if I needed to get that foot on the ladder.

Hughes500 is a good bloke (yes I know him) and with good intent, it really is win / win, look at it from the other side, if he has to pay for every dead leg in full his costs go up in an already ridiculously expensive business to be in. No one is forcing anyone to hour build cheaply in a turbine, and the more expensive option is available if customers really want to pay top dollar to fly from A to A , perhaps even paying for the same safety pilot as they dont meet insurance requirements to fly alone. I've not spoken to H500 about this so this is just me pointing out that not everyone's intent is bad, his certainly will not be.

In my experience the likelihood of anyone paying anyone to hour build is almost zero at the start of a career in the civilian world, you might occasionally get a free positioning leg somewhere if you are lucky.

Gary

[jayteeto]

I understand the frustration of people trying to find paid work, but commercial operators are there to make money. The 50/50 scheme seems like a fair compromise.
I am employed by one of the biggest companies in the UK, when I order pens, pencils and teabags, I always look for the best quality available sat the best bargain price.
Always look for efficiencies, 50/50 is just that

[Hughes500]

Gary

The first time you have called me a good bloke, do i owe you money or a beer ?????

[JTobias]

Heli 10

no problem, best of luck.
On a positive note I know of two people who went from PPL (H), then type rated on a turbine (my jet ranger in fact) and then built up his hours in order to do his CPL (H) which he did (again, in my jet ranger). He then stopped , by choice.

The second did the same thing (but not in my machine) and has now been working full time as a commercial pilot flying the Eurocopter EC120. It's do-able but it's a journey of twists, turns and ups/downs and expensive.

Best of luck

Joel :ok:

[Jelico]

I found a way to do a similar thing here in New Zealand. Once I had my PPL and an R44 rating, I decided to continue through to CPL with a 141 school that also had a charter division. I acted as ground crew on the weekends and in return was rewarded with ferry flying, to and from remote bases. For about 4-5 hrs of being ground crew I would normally log a 0.8 or 0.9 of ferry flying. No money changed hands. As with Hughes500's offer everyone saw it as a win win. The machine had to get from A-B, the commercial pilot got paid regardless, I built valuable experience both on the ground and in the air, and I helped them get the job done. I built about 25 hrs of my 150hr CPL that way, learnt a lot and enjoyed myself.

I got to know their systems to the point that when I got my CPL, I was put on the books straight away as a (very junior) commercial pilot. It is not a common scenario, and obviously not something you can count on but there are opportunities around. Your best bet is to choose carefully who you are going to train with as thats normally where your first opportunities spring from, and be a good bastard.

[500e]

Free beer H500 good bloke
What do you want me to say :ok:

[QTG]

I would suggest you read EASA Part-FCL - specifically FCL.720.H(c):

"(c) Single-pilot multi-engine helicopters. An applicant for the issue of a first type rating for a single-pilot multi-engine helicopter shall:
(1) before starting flight training:
(i) have passed the ATPL(H) theoretical knowledge examinations; or
(ii) hold a certificate of completion of a pre-entry course conducted by an ATO. The course shall cover the following subjects of the ATPL(H) theoretical knowledge course:
- Aircraft General Knowledge: airframe/systems/power plant, and instrument/electronics,
- Flight Performance and Planning: mass and balance, performance;

(2) in the case of applicants who have not completed an ATP(H)/IR, ATP(H), or CPL(H)/IR integrated training course, have completed at least 70 hours as PIC on helicopters."

[Hughes500]

well heres an example doing some parachute dropping for a charity in Southampton 24th / 25th July so 4 dead legs of 45 mins. I find a rated pilot who wants the time I can reduce the bill to the charity, everyone is a winner !!!

[SuperF]

when i started, back a few years now, i was a ground crewman/loader driver, whatever you call them these days. Back then it was slave....

Any time that we flew out to any job that required ground staff, and we were going in the helicopter, i got to fly and log dual, or PIC as appropriate. I didn't have to pay anything for it, it was simply a perk of the job. All the other staff were really good about it, if one person got to fly and one to drive, they always let me fly, both ways even, however at night i was always the sober driver taking the guys out to the pub and back....

This was when we were ferrying our helicopter to/from jobs, not with any paying passengers etc. After i got my CPL, then there was also lots of hours with two pilots up front, that we normally only do with one, nothing like on the job training to really get you up to speed.

We then did the same thing with the next ground crewman that wanted to fly, he got the exact same treatment, got as much flying as we could give him that didn't cost us anything.

Jelico,

you will find that according to IRD, you were "paid" to work. i know that you say no money changed hands, however, IRD will say that you were "paid" for the work you did by bartering the hours you spent as Ground Crew, in exchange for the helicopter time...

not saying what you did was wrong, its a great way to get experience, just don't admit to IRD thats how you did it...

[Jelico]

hah yes I think its a "grey area" - never admit anything to the IRD! I always thought of it as I was still paying for training, and figured I could aways argue I was paying an average rate of X over the whole CPL. Regardless I am extremely grateful for the opportunity, and in all honesty would have been happy to pay something for the ferry flying, and probably would have loaded for free. The life of a skid biter..:ugh:

[AV83R]

Hughes500,

I've sent you a PM. Could I ask you a few questions?

[Hughes500]

Heli10

Well seeing as you are set on learning in a Cabri ( possibly at that highly recommended school:ugh: that has 5 ) not much I can do to help you. I am sure they will offer you lots of cheap flying ;)
Best of luck with your project !

[brett s]

I started out working for an ag operator as a combination mechanic/loader/truck driver, the owner allowed me to ferry ships between job sites when it was practical.

Worked out for both of us, he got a cheap A&P mechanic & in a bit over a year I flew about 125 hours - when I got my CPL(H) I started spraying crops for him too.

He was taking on the risk of a low hour pilot in his ships as there was no hull insurance, I had about 43 hours TT but hadn't flown in over a year & none at all in a Bell 47 - after a couple of trips around the patch totaling maybe 15 minutes he turned me loose, guess I didn't scare him too bad!

[heli10]

Hughes500,

The cabri look nice but I've not yet flown one, and I don't know what's good and bad, just by what people tell you...I'm not fussed what I fly to learn in tbh the more experience I can get the better.

A nice white s300 could also work ;)