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saviboy
1st Jul 2015, 12:05
Hi everyone
Could everyone share their thought process regarding determining the fuel quantity that will cause you to proceed to a diversion airport. If flying the airbus, how do you use the fuel pred page?
Thanks

Amadis of Gaul
1st Jul 2015, 12:50
Take your FOB, add the square root of of fuel used, then add 42.

Speedwinner
1st Jul 2015, 13:09
Whats Bingo ????

Radix
1st Jul 2015, 13:36
...........

deptrai
1st Jul 2015, 14:16
When the bingo warning light comes on, the PF will call for the bingo checklist, the PM reads out the checklist, which is company specific, but Airbus recommendation is to keep an eye on the bogeys, terminate the engagement, switch off the afterburners, advise home base that you will return, commence recovery and prepare a tactical descent to land asap.

saviboy
1st Jul 2015, 14:59
Cool jokes :)
I'll rephrase :
While holding, How do you guys determine the level of fob that will make you initiate a diversion. More jokes are welcome but actual advice would be nice too.

FE Hoppy
1st Jul 2015, 15:20
A lot of wise guys but none able to answer the question.

Personally I would say the decision has to come with ALT + Final reserve + approach and go around fuel left but there isn't much merit diverting due to fuel unless there is little or no chance of landing at destination.


p.s. Some of us know what bingo fuel is:)

fantom
1st Jul 2015, 16:12
Whats Bingo ????

Those of a certain age who flew Hunters also know what 'Piccadilly' is too...

Amadis of Gaul
1st Jul 2015, 16:18
Good advice would be following your airline's policy regarding such issues. Your airline does have such a policy, right?

saviboy
1st Jul 2015, 19:23
Thank you to the person who shared his view.
Indeed, my airline has a policy. Airbus also offers guidance notably in the fctm. I'm interested in different people' s thought process, not in contemptuous and/or pedantic comments.

cosmo kramer
1st Jul 2015, 19:49
You get those replies because your question is too unspecific.

The thought process is so much different depending on the situation: How is the weather, why are you holding etc....

The decision to commit to the destination may basically have been made prior to departure.

If you are asking technically: You should compare the indication on your fuel gauges with the diversion fuel that is written on the flight plan. Not use a prediction from the FMC.

bingofuel
1st Jul 2015, 20:20
Why has someone created a post to discuss me?

deptrai
1st Jul 2015, 21:39
I agree it's hard to give a good answer to a general question, other than general answers. Like final reserve fuel, to fly at green dot speed in clean config for 30 min at 1500m AGL, or more must remain at landing, alternate or destination. Once you've used contingency and extra fuel, and all you have left is alternate and reserve, you should already have made sure that alternate fuel will be enough to land, whether you divert or not. If what is left won't be enough to land with final reserve at destination, you divert, before you start using alternate fuel. When you avoid mayday calls and minimum fuel alerts on ECAM you do it right. But that is rather obvious and maybe not the answer you are looking for. And it's the very minimum required.

Intruder
2nd Jul 2015, 01:25
There is usually more than one answer to the Bingo problem...

In the 744 I routinely set my Reserve Fuel in the FMS to the minimum of Flight Plan FMS Reserve or [7T + burn to Alternate]. That is my target minimum fuel at the threshold of the primary destination.

When in holding, I can then input EFC times in the HOLD page to get an estimate of my latest departure from hold before I will have to divert and/or call minimum fuel. I can also set up a whatif in ROUTE 2 for a divert route from the current holding fix.

Without the magic, I figure on 10T/hour average, and estimate my time to alternate considering winds. Get there with 7T minimum.

I'm sure there are other techniques...

ACMS
2nd Jul 2015, 02:13
Well let me take a stab at it:----

1/ know the fuel required to divert from your destination Airport to your nominated Alternate . This can be the number provided on the computer flight plan or the FM figures provided you have inserted all the flight plan correctly to the Altn including FL's and Wind and expected Star Rwy etc. ( note:- my company use CI 0 for their flight plan figures )

With regards to the fuel predictions page:--

Once all the programming is completed fully you can see the predicted burn off to the Altn on the top line ( fuel at A - fuel at B = burn ) , compare that to the flight plan. It is acceptable to use the lower of the two numbers but I wouldn't. The hold time at the bottom line assumes you use all the route reserve. Make the Rte Res "0" to see what the FM holding time available is. ( you can change the final reserve at Altn as well of you wish ) Then you can CLR "0" to put the default back.
Either way I just look at the Flight Plan page EFOB at arrival to see what it thinks we'll have at destination. You can also muck around with the numbers to match the CFP divert fuel as well of you are keen enough.

2/ how much fuel do you want to have on arrival at your Alternate? ( reserve, usually 30 mins )

3/ simply add 1/ and 2/ together to get 3. :ok:

Once you have 3/ you can workout how much holding time you have. You should know the FF during holding. Then the Captain in command stuff comes in, deciding wether to hold or divert at that time.......your call.

Don't forget that the latest time to divert will be when the ECAM FOB indicates the amount or the Calculated FOB reaches that amount ( Departure FOB - Fuel used ) whichever occurs first....



Now you can apply suitable local knowledge as required to adjust up the final answer if you wish...

ACMS
2nd Jul 2015, 02:48
Don't forget that your QRH will have inflight performance data to calculate diversion fuel. You could compare that data to the FM as well if you wish.

I've done that when I needed an Alternate not on my CFP.

Naturally I did this 2 hours before landing when I had time...

Capn Bloggs
2nd Jul 2015, 03:40
And make sure you plan to the Alternate Depressurised...

ACMS
2nd Jul 2015, 07:36
its not mentioned in our books but it's worth considering for longer Alternates.
Such as carrying ADL for PER, this subject has come up with our flight dispatch and I'm pretty sure they cater for a Depress crit point fuel required on this diversion sector....

What they don't do is cater for Depress flight all the way to the alternate, that's not required.

Normally we will arrive at the Alternate after a diversion with a minimum of 30 mins fuel. In the Depress situation we only need to arrive with 15mins.......

So for most alternates within an hour or so it would be catered for ( we carry 5% extra as well on our divert fuel burn ).....

Nice thought to consider though for further away alternates..


Not sure what the Ozzy regs or Qlink say but in our books it say:----

Diversion to an Alternate If a diversion becomes necessary, the crew should be aware that although the CFP Alternate Fuel includes 5% Contingency Fuel, it may be prudent to commence the diversion prior to reaching Minimum Diversion Fuel for the following reasons: • possibility of step climbs • lower than planned flight levels, and • arrival delays. Note: When a diversion is caused by technical malfunction or damage to the aircraft (e.g. multiple bird strike or hail impact), crew should be aware of a possible increase in fuel burn when calculating the diversion fuel requirement.

TyroPicard
2nd Jul 2015, 10:45
saviboy... this is how I use the fuel pred page..
1. Make sure the ALTN F-PLAN is correct for the routing and approach you expect.
2. Decide your minimum fuel at ALTN, modify FUEL PRED final fuel if required.
3. Use "fuel and time to exit the hold" info as a guide to help you decide.
4. Don't go below Joker fuel.

Capn Bloggs
2nd Jul 2015, 14:49
Australia:

Depress: 30 minutes Fixed;

Engine Failure: 10min Fixed+10% of divert time.

mustangsally
2nd Jul 2015, 16:16
Bingo has several meanings. In combat the pilot would call bingo, meaning I need either to get back to base or hit a tanker.


In the civilian world it means we are out of here and heading to an alternate airport.


Many moons ago, sitting in the right seat of a 727 holding north of Atlanta. The Captain had added additional fuel, about a hours worth, just cause the forecast was for lots of fog and low visibility. We were just starting the decent when the first hold was assigned. We were about FL240. So the burn is not to high. Then get a couple of step downs to about FL180. Now we are hearing lots of flight below and above us heading to alternates. The Captain started noting were each seemed to be diverting. Calls to the company asking where they would like the divert, if we do, to be. Greenville and Spartanburg are open and suggested.


The long a short of it is we called our ops at each airport and both said the ramp area was getting full and did not know how many more jets could be handled with out starting to close the place down. Remember Tenerife. We had already worked out a bingo, but then readdressed the issue and added another twenty five or so minutes to the bingo. About ten minutes later we started toward Greenville. Well into the decent ATC advised us that the ramp was full and only one runway was open, cause jet were parked everywhere. The company call with the same information and said the had room for us at Spartanburg. We landed with about 30 minutes remaining. We parked on the taxi way leading from the ramp. The place was all but full.


The only advantage was we got refueled first, cause no one could leave the ramp area till we moved on.

framer
2nd Jul 2015, 19:25
I like that story MustangS, is the moral that you should have let the hold earlier?

saviboy
3rd Jul 2015, 01:40
Thank you very much for the replies.
Very helpful and informative.

mikedreamer787
10th Jul 2015, 11:26
I always well-pad my bingo fuel to allow for the unexpected at the alternate, as not only you but every other Tom Dick and Harry (and the odd Harriet) will probably be heading to the same place, on top of the scheduled inbound traffic to said alternate. This of course depends on the actual circumstances however, and how the CFP divert fuel is computed.

The box at least gives you an idea of how long you can hang around, but I never take its computations as written in stone.

jsfboat
13th Jul 2015, 05:36
I use the BAR method. Fuel Burn to destination, to Alternate, plus Reserve gives required fuel. Subtract this from FOB (Fuel on Board) gives how extra much fuel to hold with. Divide this number by fuel PPH and it gives your time in the hold.

B - 3000 lbs
A - 2000
R - 1200
________
6200 required. If you have, say, 7500 lbs on board, you have 1300 lbs of holding fuel. Burn 2000 lbs/hour (both engines), it leaves you with .65 hours of holding, or 39 minutes.

stilton
13th Jul 2015, 08:01
Good technique there :ok:

Groucho
13th Jul 2015, 08:56
That method is only relevant at the planning stage - the OQ was about bingo 'in the hold'.

Skyjob
13th Jul 2015, 12:49
In the hold other factors could be an issue:

- What is reason for holding, as you may not be the only one diverting;
- Have you got an EAT, if so, alternate full could be used if committing to the destination;
- How many runways are at destination vs alternate (e.g. what is the point of diverting from 4 runways airport to a single strip)
- What facilities are in place in both destination and alternate (e.g. full radar control vs procedural arrivals)
- How is weather at alternate and facilities vs intended destination (e.g. if weather approaching operating minima at alternate, you may be better holding longer and committing to destination)
- There are many more of these...

If in doubt, DECLARE iaw ATC procedures your fuel state to get priority.