This Is Not Funny Anymore! (Russia And The Baltic Sea)

[MrSnuggles]

Ok, guys, now I am getting worried. This is what happens up here:

Här vänder det ryska jaktflyget i sista stund | Nyheter | Expressen (http://www.expressen.se/nyheter/har-vander-det-ryska-jaktflyget-i-sista-stund/)

from the Swedish newspaper Expressen. A short summary would be that the incidents winter/spring 2014/2015 now appears to be more targeted and an anti-aircraft wall seems to be appearing. Instead of just dabbling around without transponders, the Russian army actually marks against Flygvapnet (Swedish airforce) with flares, simulating an attack.

A picture released from Flygvapnet shows a deliberately close call:

http://x.cdn-expressen.se/images/fb/84/fb84b3b8049e4e4d9bfd8b5f7cbb24c9/16x9/[email protected]

Yeah, we are not part of NATO yadayada.. what I am concerned about is our Baltic friends. If this is how Sweden is treated, then what is going on in Estland, Latvia, Lithuania? What about Poland?

I guess we all know how Ukraine is treated... and how noone else cares enough to do absolutely nothing about it.

[MrSnuggles]

More news, this time from Dagens Nyheter (DN). Apparently the Russian gouvernment is trying to see if the acknowledgement of the Baltic states was unlawful. One of the sources mentioned in the article is lenta.ru .

Ryssland undersöker om det var ?olagligt? att erkänna baltländerna - DN.SE (http://www.dn.se/nyheter/varlden/ryssland-undersoker-om-det-var-olagligt-att-erkanna-baltlanderna/)

Den ryska riksåklagaren ska ”undersöka om beslutet att erkänna de baltiska staterna 1991 var lagligt”. Tidigare har en domstol konstaterat att beslutet att överlåta Krim till Ukraina 1954 inte var lagligt.

Translation:
The Russian States Attorney will investigate if the decision to acknowledge the Baltic states in 1994 was according to the law. Earlier, a court decided that the decision to give Crimea to Ukraine in 1954 was not according to the law.

My comment:
Are they absolutely 100% nuts over there? Why is it that Russians, that are usually very friendly and fun, seem to attract such horrible horrible leaders? And if they start to question the sovereignity of the Baltic States, where will it end? And wasn't the Soviet Union based on an unlawful aquisition of power and land in the first place?

[MSOCS]

From my perspective Russia's overt brutality and expansionist ideals bear many of the hallmarks of a certain 1930s German government. Back then we thought that Politics and diplomacy would win true as all the words and promises from Hitler were successively ignored or reversed.

NATO is Europe's only hope to stay Putin's restless hand. Understandably, his people are supportive of his plans to return Mother Russia to Pole Position in the world.

Right now though, they're laughing at the West. We're half of what we were 10 years ago in many key areas and, while we contemplate more savings and cuts to Defence, they are expanding; investing in home-grown technology and building their military capability apace.

In my opinion, NATO member politicians need to look themselves squarely in the mirror and ask if Defence of their respective countries is their oft-uttered priority. If it is, we're already behind.

[MrSnuggles]

We're half of what we were 10 years ago in many key areas

This is what scares me the most. In Sweden we had an outstanding capability to seek and destroy submarines until the mid-nineties. Short-sighted stupidity and confused politics made sure we now hardly can detect an intruder even in our own front yard.

Your comparison with the Hitler regime is all too familiar. Noone took him seriously and just let him invade Austria and Czechoslovakia until finally Poland was the proverbial straw.

Is Ukraine the Austria of Russia? There are many similarities!

So what do we do and how? Right now our politicians are more concerned about giving money to Romanian beggars. One bright thing is that they have ordered two new submarines - to be ready around 2025. Yeah. Great. Doh.

[DirtyProp]

You get who you vote for.
When ppl will stop whining and start voting for politicians that have the nation's best interests at heart, maybe things will change.

[MSOCS]

When ppl will stop whining and start voting for politicians that have the nation's best interests at heart, maybe things will change.

Two things spring to mind at your comment there DirtyProp:

1 - Do you really think that any Party's Defence policy was a key factor in the recent election? No, neither do I. The issue over 2% GDP for NATO has been well and truly swept under the carpet. There was no clear winning party for Defence and there hasn't been for 10 years or more.

2 - Do you think that the mass of voters consider Defence to be important? When pressed I'd suggest that most of the electorate assume we're quite adequately equipped and that we are still amongst the finest in the World (we are!) I would say 'no'. The electoral masses don't consider Defence to be a vote-swinging topic. If they did, they'd have demanded Defence on the manifestos of every party in order to compare.

There's a difference between whining and expressing one's opinion as well.

[Genstabler]

Our politicians in the West were too hasty in spending the peace dividend. Now we are militarily bankrupt.

[Basil]

When pressed I'd suggest that most of the electorate assume we're quite adequately equipped
If that's what the voter thinks then we are truly doomed!

[Cows getting bigger]

Maybe the West may wakeup a little bit when Russia 'buys' Greece in the next few weeks? :eek:

[NutLoose]

Either the Russians or China, in return for bases.

[DirtyProp]

Two things spring to mind at your comment there DirtyProp:

1 - Do you really think that any Party's Defence policy was a key factor in the recent election? No, neither do I. The issue over 2% GDP for NATO has been well and truly swept under the carpet. There was no clear winning party for Defence and there hasn't been for 10 years or more.

2 - Do you think that the mass of voters consider Defence to be important? When pressed I'd suggest that most of the electorate assume we're quite adequately equipped and that we are still amongst the finest in the World (we are!) I would say 'no'. The electoral masses don't consider Defence to be a vote-swinging topic. If they did, they'd have demanded Defence on the manifestos of every party in order to compare.

There's a difference between whining and expressing one's opinion as well.
Then ppl will get what they deserve.
Simple as that.

[Green Guard]

Msocs
.... Words and promises from Hitler were all successfully ignored or reversed"
doesn't that ring the bell about US government contracts with Native Americans ? Not promises but contracts !
Doesn't it ring the bell about NATO PROMISES to GORBACHEV not to expand to Russian borders ?
Or you pretend it never happened ?
PS
About giving up Austria and Czechoslovakia to Hitler did you forget who did that and who defeated Hitler afterwords ?
And who supports today Nazzies in Ukraine ?

[LowObservable]

Korpen Block 2.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Yb-40-gun-details.png

[pr00ne]

"We're half of what we were 10 years ago in many key areas..."


And Russia is less then a quarter of what the Soviet Union and the Warsaw pact were....

Two Nuclear armed parties squaring up, if it happens, then it goes nuclear, so it won't happen.

[highflyer40]

I would have to agree, neither side is in any shape for conventional war for the near future

[glad rag]

Then ppl will get what they deserve.
Simple as that.

What about my children then will they get what they deserve?

Forum rules and politeness to my fellow ppruner's will not let me comment fully on your attitude.

[DirtyProp]

What about my children then will they get what they deserve?

Forum rules and politeness to my fellow ppruner's will not let me comment fully on your attitude.

Your children will get what they deserve - good or bad - according to the choices made by the ones before them, yours in primis.
As MSOCS wrote before, "The electoral masses don't consider Defence to be a vote-swinging topic. If they did, they'd have demanded Defence on the manifestos of every party in order to compare." In other words, they don't give a damn about it.

Politicians do not vote themselves to power, they are voted by the people. The same people that could care less about Defence and such.
So instead of telling me about my attitude, I suggest you go talk to your countrymen about the future of your children.

[Fluffy Bunny]

Well said Glad.
I do fear however, there are a couple of trolls on this thread already looking for food... :=

[AreOut]

"NATO is Europe's only hope to stay Putin's restless hand. Understandably, his people are supportive of his plans to return Mother Russia to Pole Position in the world."

Putin is getting very old, he won't be able to lead his country for a long.

I say just wait for them to elect the normal president and end all this mumbo-jumbo over Ukraine.

[GlobalNav]

Not by Soviet standards, at least, and I think he has a extremely high percentage of Soviet blood (and aspirations) in him. Probably shed some, too.

[Herod]

Putin is getting very old, he won't be able to lead his country for a long.

I make him 62, not even old enough for a pension in UK.

[Tankertrashnav]

Are they absolutely 100% nuts over there? Why is it that Russians, that are usually very friendly and fun, seem to attract such horrible horrible leaders?

You have to get inside the mindset of the Russian people, who, as you rightly say are friendly and fun. In the 4 months I spent there in 1992 I met some of the friendliest, nicest people I have ever met. Mind you this may have just been the contrast after spending the previous four months in Paris, where the opposite was the case!

However for centuries the Russians have been brainwashed into believing they are surrounded by a hostile world and have to defend themselves at all costs, and to an extent they have some historical justification for this view. To this end they have always admired strong leaders, and it should come as no surprise to learn that Putin has an over 80% approval rating in Russia. What wouldn't most Western leaders do for that sort of rating? Gorbachev, on the other hand, a leader we regarded as progressive and reasonable, was unpopular, and few in the country would like to see his style of leadership return.

Putin of course plays on this paranoia, and goes from strength to strength. And as for too old - compared with the likes of Brezhnev, Andropov and Chernenko he's nobbut a lad yet!

[carlrsymington]

"Putin is getting very old, he won't be able to lead his country for a long."

How old are you? 12?

It seems to me we are going to face him for a very long time. Forget his age. He portrays an image as extremely physically fit & I don't doubt it. He doesn't appear to be an addict (Yeltsin).
He is probably as physically fit as Obama & Cameron.

I obviously don't know his parents \ family medical history but the best we can hope for is some form of genetic defect ..heart condition (heart attack while entertaining his girlfriend Alina Kabaeva) and fear he doesn't go senile.. :eek:

Gone to have a cup of tea, no wait 1 lump or 2 of polonium?

[MSOCS]

PrOOne,

And Russia is less then a quarter of what the Soviet Union and the Warsaw pact were....

Two Nuclear armed parties squaring up, if it happens, then it goes nuclear, so it won't happen.

If we're going to compare Cold War then I'd say we're probably less than half of what we were back then (30 Squadrons compared to what, 8 now?) So, are we to sit back and watch Putin push one border after another - cat and mouse style - content in the knowledge that we've the ultimate weapon of deterrence? Are you saying we'd push the big red button if Putin were to march troops into Estonia and Latvia with heavy armour and a claim on former Soviet territories? No, we wouldn't, because it would escalate out of all control. He knows that, we know that. Only the threat of a robust conventional deterrent would prevent another Ukraine in the short term. That and a willingness to intervene where needed and show solidarity. Baltic Air Policing is only one part.

As we all know, Hitler had a fair head of steam on by the time we decided enough was enough. History can't repeat itself because we have Nukes....right???!

[MrSnuggles]

Please could some of you stop trolling around here? I am very grateful for those who take this matter seriously and come with insightful posts. Thankyou all.

I am seriously worried. Russian and Soviet leaders has a worrying ability to stay alive for very long, and also for being really weird. Gorbachev was the only one to actually keep his wits, but then he didn't last that long either. Yeltsin was a fun guy, but we can all agree he was a bit, erhm... too funny... at the end. So now this Putin. A former KGB agent.

Are we back to the former terror balance between East and West? I wouldn't like that.

I will, however, let you know that the politicians are talking about increasing defence budget this very day. I really hope the submarine hunt was a wake up call. Many leading media persons have strongly critizised the gouvernment for failing the Defence since then.

Another thing I forgot to mention, we had a TU-22 over Öland a few weeks ago. Skimming Swedish territory. Frightening.

[hunterboy]

With regard to the potential Chinese or Russian use of Greek ports, I would have thought it would be quite advantageous for NATO having a potential adversaries equipment in a "friendly" port?
Espionage would be easier, and it has to be easier to sink ships in a Greek port rather than a Russian one, even if just by "accident" ?

[Green Guard]

Tankertrashnav
Your statement:
"However for centuries the Russians have been brainwashed into believing they are surrounded by a hostile world and have to defend themselves at all costs, and to an extent they have some historical justification for this view"
...is very good. But you have to read it again and again
in order to understand that for centuries it was Russia who was attacked to be occupied from Swedes via Germans and French and whole Europe combined.
Never opposite.
So why we worry now ?
Waiting for more "democracy" from John McCain ?

[Jollygreengiant64]

MrSnuggles, could I ask whether you have real inside information on increased spending, or is this just you speculating like the rest of us? I'm genuinely interested.

Also, is this increase a reference solely to the rumoured new MPA that has been around for weeks or something new on top?

Hopefully this is just the tip of a large funding iceberg; with the length of time it takes western governments to decide to do something, let alone organise it, the situation with Russia/ China will be a whole lot more obvious to the public and in need of a bit more than a few token pence.

[t43562]

Russia is big. How did it get that way? Conquest? Perhaps they are not justified in pointing any fingers.

[Martin the Martian]

Okay, Green Guard, I'll bite, though doubtless I'll regret it.

When exactly did 'whole Europe combined' occupy Russia? I've had a good look at my history books but I am having trouble finding that chapter.

And what does John McCain have to do with it? He may be chair of the US Senate Armed Services Committee but that gives him as much say in what goes on in the White House as the lady who brings the tea trolley around.

[pr00ne]

MSOCS,


You misinterpret my words. I don't think that the West is, or should, just be sitting back fat dumb and happy behind the nuclear shield. If Russia went into the Baltic States then NATO would respond conventionally, and substantially, and then I would worry that it would be Putin who would resort to a nuclear response.

[MrSnuggles]

Jollygreengiant64

MrSnuggles, could I ask whether you have real inside information on increased spending, or is this just you speculating like the rest of us? I'm genuinely interested.

Also, is this increase a reference solely to the rumoured new MPA that has been around for weeks or something new on top?

To quote myself:

the politicians are talking about increasing defence budget this very day

I listened to speeches from various political leaders and there were voices among them that wanted more defence muscles. As I also said, it seems that the submarine hunt and our embarrassing failure in that regard was a wake up call here. SAAB-Kockum did get two firm orders on Baltic Sea submarines 3-4 months ago, to be delivered around 2025. They have also been ordered to upgrade all existing naval equipment to world class standard.

That doesn't help much when Russia skims Swedish territory with potential nuclear bombers right NOW.

I wholeheartedly wish that Norway could have withstood the pressure from the US to buy their F-35s and gone for the Gripen or Rafaele instead. Now they have an ageing airforce fleet and nothing to replace it with (see the F-35 thread for more info). Finland is better armed, but then they are Finnish and never trusted that old bear.

As I am not 100% sure what you mean by MPA (you English speaking people don't like whole words, do you? ;) ), I dare not answer that question until I know.

[MrSnuggles]

proone:

... Putin who would resort to a nuclear response.

This is what worries me too. He seems so genuinely paranoid and the same time entitled - a very dangerous combination.

What worries me also, and this is relateed to the picture in my first post, is that he just skips over the Baltic countries and comes close to the Swedish territorial airspace and shoots flares at our military aircraft, or sweeps by them with 50 metres separation. This shows to me that in his mind he doesn't give a rats ass about the Baltics. They are after all closer to us than Russia is, but he just skips them as if everything was Soviet.

[MrSnuggles]

for centuries it was Russia who was attacked to be occupied from Swedes via Germans and French and whole Europe combinedIn the very early 1700's there was a megalomaniac Swedish king who beat the living daylight out of some Russian forces to gain a few sqkm's of land. It took no more than a year for Russia to reclaim this land while this particular king was fighting the Danes in Norway. Well, some war tired Swede realised the king was nuts and put a bullet in his head. Ever since that king, Sweden never once tried anything like that ever again.

Next time someone tried to invade Russia for real, not just fighting over which parts of Poland they should get (poor Poland, always in the middle...) was during WWII. We all know how that ended. After the war, the Soviet started invading other countries though, Hungary 1956 and Czechoslovakia 1968 are two very high profile cases. Now Russia has invaded Ukraine with some super sleuth distorted legal wrangling type reasons.

France never tried to invade Russia. I do not know how you come to that conclusion. Europe combined never tried to invade Russia or Soviet. We were buddies during the war, united against the Nazis, remember?

-------------------

ETA: During the war, Soviet tried to invade Finland though. I can do nothing but applaud my Finnish brothers and sisters for their courage, strenght and determination. They did something truly awesome during the Finnish Winter War. I am proud to have such neighbours that withstood one of the world's biggest armies. In a very tiny way Sweden contributed by advertising for volunteers - "Finlands sak är vår!" translates to "The Finnish cause is also ours!". I have relatives who in many ways supported both Norwegians and Finnish people during the war. A few went to the Winter War, others helped Norwegian resistance movement by smuggling provisions and other contraband to them. Oh well, a threadjack, let's return to the present day now.

[Herod]

MrSnuggles. My late father-in-law was a Swedish trawlerman who spent quite some time in WWII as a soldier up on the border with Norway. People don't appreciate what Sweden did, thinking them cowardly neutrals as opposed to the "brave" Norwegians. Reading the history of the war, Sweden played a good part in the victory by being "neutral but Allied-friendly".

Any further word from the politicians on joining NATO? It wouldn't compromise your neutrality, since it's purely a defensive treaty. (I think?)

[Thud105]

"We were buddies during the war, united against the Nazis, remember?"

Point of order; -No you weren't, Sweden never fought the Nazis (but did allow the German Army to use the Swedish railway system.) That's not to say that the Swedes were pro-Nazi, but the Swedish government definetely weren't anti.

[Lonewolf_50]

Being neutral: worked so well for the US during WW I.

Wait, no it didn't, eventually.

Neutrality: yes, you're special, but you still take risks that the powers will have a use for you being neutral. If they don't, your neutrality doesn't protect you.

[evansb]

Remember that after the fall of communism in the Soviet Union, Russia's major export to the western world was the Russian Mafia.

[Wokkafans]

An interesting albeit slightly lengthy read, released today:

The National Military Strategy of the United States of America 2015: The United States Military’s Contribution To National Security June 2015


http://www.jcs.mil/Portals/36/Documents/Publications/2015_National_Military_Strategy.pdf

On Russia:

"Despite these changes, states remain the international system’s dominant actors. They are preeminent in their capability to harness power, focus human endeavors, and provide security. Most states today — led by the United States, its allies, and partners — support the established institutions and processes dedicated to preventing conflict, respecting sovereignty, and furthering human rights. Some states, however, are attempting to revise key aspects of the international order and are acting in a manner that threatens our national security interests.

While Russia has contributed in select security areas, such as counternarcotics and counterterrorism, it also has repeatedly demonstrated that it does not respect the sovereignty of its neighbors and it is willing to use force to achieve its goals. Russia’s military actions are undermining regional security directly and through proxy forces. These actions violate numerous agreements that Russia has signed in which it committed to act in accordance with international norms, including the UN Charter, Helsinki Accords, Russia-NATO Founding Act, Budapest Memorandum, and the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty.

***

Today, the probability of U.S. involvement in interstate war with a major power is assessed to be low but growing. Should one occur, however, the consequences would be immense.

***

In Europe, we remain steadfast in our commitment to our NATO allies. NATO provides vital collective security guarantees and is strategically important for deterring conflict, particularly in light of recent Russian aggression on its periphery. U.S. Operation ATLANTIC RESOLVE, our European Reassurance Initiative, NATO’s Readiness Action Plan, and the many activities, exercises, and investments contained in them serve to underline our dedication to alliance solidarity, unity, and security. We also will continue to support our NATO partners to increase their interoperability with U.S. forces and to provide for their own defense."

[Herod]

Sweden never fought the Nazis . It's as well they didn't, at least officially. What happened on the Swedish/Norwegian border would make a good story if anyone had access to the facts. They would probably have been overrun, and then we wouldn't have a friend in the middle of the enemy's camp. Sweden leased a number of telephone lines to the German forces, and promptly began feeding intelligence to the Allies. They also provided a safe haven for downed aircrew and a way of attacking the forces in Norway from the rear. Read Bernt Balchen's autobiography of the Stockholm-UK flights during the war. Agents in, intelligence out.

[Red Line Entry]

France never tried to invade Russia.

So what was all that in 1812 Mr S? A road trip?

[GlobalNav]

Yeah, needed to update the Michelin Guide.
Went so well, he retired to St Helena, IIRC

[Heathrow Harry]

Actually he retired to Elba after his Russian jaunt

he was then unwise enough to visit Belgium and then boarded a boat to goto England but the Home Secretary sent him off to St Helena as an illegal immigrant

[GlobalNav]

@ Harry I stand corrected

What say we repeat history for Mr. P?
All expenses paid for an island retirement? I'd chip in.

[MSOCS]

Pr00ne,

I agree. Whether NATO is able to respond "substantially" is the question. The capability and intent to defend NATO territory has to be very real and everything from military hardware to political rhetoric needs to leave Putin and his Govt under no illusion. After all, red faces and staring at the floor is not what we want to happen when Russia does to Latvia or Lithuania what it has done in Ukraine.

[MrSnuggles]

LOL, I had totally forgot about Napoleon! Granted his invasion was really not a success to put it mildly.

Still, it seems that MSOCS and proone are the ones that really got the gist of my first post here.

Herod, thankyou for your kind words. Yes, Sweden had its fair share of double standards during WWII. There are many reasons and ifs and buts, if someone wants to know more, I'd be happy to answer Qs in another thread.

[Green Guard]

Yes. Some tend to forget Napoleon.
More tend to dismiss the truth how many other European including Polish soldiers marched with Napoleon to Moscow.
Many tend to forget that Hitler had whole of Europe except UK before "he marched"
to Moscow.
Did he send there only German soldiers ?
How Many divisions volunteered from Croatia Romania Slovakia Sweden France Austria Italy etc etc ?
And yes. Those who think John McCain is a nice innocent guy should bring him to their own family for a visit.

[ORAC]

There is the case that Stalin and the USSR got what they earned.....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact

[Green Guard]

Orac too may get what he or she earned.
Whatever goes round comes around

[Torquelink]

1 - Do you really think that any Party's Defence policy was a key factor in the recent election? No, neither do I. The issue over 2% GDP for NATO has been well and truly swept under the carpet. There was no clear winning party for Defence and there hasn't been for 10 years or more.

2 - Do you think that the mass of voters consider Defence to be important? When pressed I'd suggest that most of the electorate assume we're quite adequately equipped and that we are still amongst the finest in the World (we are!) I would say 'no'. The electoral masses don't consider Defence to be a vote-swinging topic. If they did, they'd have demanded Defence on the manifestos of every party in order to compare.

As they believe there are no votes in it no party prioritises defence these days and it suits most politicians to believe - or pretend to believe - that the halcyon post-Cold War days of the 90s are still with us and they can continue to blindly harvest the peace dividend while spending on those areas where they believe votes do lie. I rather suspect that, if he gives thought to the subject at all, Joe Public probably believes that no government would be so treacherously inept as to leave the country virtually defenceless and therefore he doesn't need to worry. If there was a well-funded and well-staffed defence awareness lobby that challenged politicians every time they uttered nonsensical platitudes about the size of the defence budget etc and which ensured that stark comparisons illustrating the decline in our defences vs increasing threats was regularly featured in the media, Joe might sit up and begin to take notice - then politicians might see there are votes in defence again and actually do something about it.

Pigs . . fly . . .

[MrSnuggles]

Many tend to forget that Hitler had whole of Europe except UK before "he marched"
to Moscow.
Did he send there only German soldiers ?

Green Guard

I see how you think here. Problem is, as you know, that Hitler had occupied lots of land. This land was proclaimed to be part of the Third Reich under Hitler rule. So whatever nationality you could find in the army, it was still the Hitler army.

Some members of Hitler's army volunteered. There were like 200 Swedish soldiers in Hitler's army, in total, during the war.

Anyway, it was still Hitler's decision to invade. Europe was NOT united wanting to invade Soviet together. As you said yourself, Europe was invaded by Hitler, who then decided to invade Soviet as well.

In this case, for the non-Germans who participated, it was the notion of "Follow Hitler (or get killed now)!!" rather than anything.

However... This is often labelled "HISTORY" and for a good reason. I actually do not see a good logical reason for that to be any factor here. The fact is that noone intends to invade Russia in any way and this is PRESENT time. It is also a fact that if Russian gouvernment believes that someone wants to invade them just because they did once in the past (let's use Sweden as a good example) then they are wildly misinformed and perhaps a little delusional. Swedish troops wouldn't be able to reach St. Petersburg and the most common cause of death among Russian people would be laughter cramps.*

I mean, come on! Why would anyone invade Russia NOW? Fer cryen' out loud, don't you get that the whole EU was formed with the intent of making countries dependent on each other in order to prevent invasions and warfare!

*The second most common would be accidents induced by laughter cramps...

[Martin the Martian]

While we're talking about Hitler's army, is this the time to mention that an estimated 800,000-1 million Russians fought and served within or alongside the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front? Or that many in the Baltic states greeted the Germans as liberators following the Soviet occupation in June 1940 and the subsequent coercion of those countries to join the USSR. Admittedly it didn't work out wonderfully well for them under German rule either, but I note that an estimated 10% of the adult population of the Baltic states was deported to the east or sent to labour camps while under Soviet rule. I guess that might explain why the Baltic nations are quite nervous and wary of that misunderstood, peace loving man in the Kremlin and his pronouncements.

[pax britanica]

Putin is a genuinely scary guy compared to the sort of people have in the west where we can choose between somewhat wishy washy liberals or looney right wingers who would sell much of Europe to Putin if he offered them enough.
However Putin is KGB and I don't think you get to be a senior KGB guy if you are a nutcase. You might be scary and sinister and quite aggressive but not a headcase . Russia has a weakening economy due to over dependence on raw materials and he needs to deflect public attention from that and threatening/invading small helpless countries is an age old tactic ( Thatcher -Falklands , she started it even if the Argies invaded and Regan with Grenada ) not unknown in the west. neither is invading your neighbours if you do not like the -US has too long a rap sheet for that in Latin America to quote.

So Putin is a bit of a threat but he is not crazy and a sensible measured response by say lots of NATO exercises in Western Baltic will likely make him think about doing something else as a diversion. The Poles and Czechs have already started down the rearmament and mobilisation road and in fact the Polish army is pretty darn big if you include the readiness reserves.
Question is do we in the west have the will -easy to fix or the means-thats a bit harder to do so. In the UK at least we could soon deploy a fearsome aircraft carrier that has no aircraft unless they are French and what a could of front line fighter squadrons and much of Europe is similar so a big role for the USA if they want to play it.

The other key thing is that today Russians know what is going on in the world-they get their news from t'internet not Pravda so while they may think Vlads pretty cool putting the wishy washy west in its place I don't see many of them dying for the Motherland like 1941 or going to the aid of their socialist brothers as in Budapest or Prague

[KenV]

The other key thing is that today Russians know what is going on in the world-they get their news from t'internet not Pravda so while they may think Vlads pretty cool putting the wishy washy west in its place I don't see many of them dying for the Motherland like 1941 or going to the aid of their socialist brothers as in Budapest or Prague

Two points:

1. As was pointed out, LOTS of Russians were willing to "fight and die" for Hitler, who was not even a fellow Russian. Its almost certain that there are PLENTY of Russians willing to fight and die for Putin and his ambitions for the Imperial Russia of old.

2. LOTS of Russians are ALREADY fighting and dying for Putin in Crimea.

[Lonewolf_50]

Those who think John McCain is a nice innocent guy should bring him to their own family for a visit.
Do you mind explaining what you mean by this?

[peter we]

Russia invaded Poland in 1919. Their target was Germany and the France.

In 1939 Hitlers ally, Russia, invaded Poland once again. As well as the 22000 Polish officers murdered by Russia, over million Polish civilians were deported to Siberian Gulags. The annual death rate in these camps is 50%, they were there for 2 years before Hitler turned on his Russian friends and Churchill persuaded Stalin to release them to the British. 180,000 made it to Persia.

[pax britanica]

ken
i think you will find it is not lots of Russians in Ukraine-a fair number yes but I its not the Red Army of 1944 nor will it be . Sure here are a lot ( a funny term and one that is relative not absolute) who like to talk tough and dont like people from some parts of the world.

But going from Moscow bike gangs and people with a direct connection to Ukraine to a force able to invade even a much weakened Western Europe is a huge step.

Putin may be powerful and he may even be evil but he is not the tsar and he is not Comrade Stalin either

[Wander00]

Well, he is sure as hell not Mr Magoo!

[Green Guard]

Mr Snuggles
Nice and honest thinking
But people who rule NATO are neither honest nor peace loving.
Don't you notice today NATO countries' borders are so much similar to occupied Europe by Hitler ?
PS
If nobody thinks to occupy or disintegrate further Russia then how can you explain encroachment of Russia ?
Look at US Army bases how much they depict Russia borders !
PS
Are you aware that in 2013 there was already a TENDER in USA to build new Army Base in Crimea ?
So much about their peaceful politics.

[MrSnuggles]

Green Guard

I am sorry but I think I am too stupid to follow your thinking here... Did you just blame the invasion of Ukraine on NATO?

[rh200]

Do you mind explaining what you mean by this?

Yea I'm confused, does he mean Mcain, the save the day actor from the movies. Or does he mean the Senator, who frankely seems to bit of a softy, but okay?

Putin may be powerful and he may even be evil but he is not the tsar and he is not Comrade Stalin either

very true.

Well, he is sure as hell not Mr Magoo!

ROFL, very true too.

Putin is no fool, he may be evil by some peoples standards, but frankely he's probally just a hard nose, and not stupid. He's playing the game and he knows how to do it.

But people who rule NATO are neither honest nor peace loving.

NATO is not ruled as in its a country, maybe some understanding is required.

Don't you notice today NATO countries' borders are so much similar to occupied Europe by Hitler ?
PS

Nope, but maybe that should be a clue to the Russians to try and be decent human beings, such that those countries don't feel the need to be part of NATO or the EU.

If nobody thinks to occupy or disintegrate further Russia then how can you explain encroachment of Russia ?

Give examples of encroachment Russian borders. There are particular countries that even though the Russians like to think they belong to them, don't.

Are you aware that in 2013 there was already a TENDER in USA to build new Army Base in Crimea ?
So much about their peaceful politics.

Ukraines a free country, if they wanted to allow a US base there, thats theire business.

The only people in the know who would have a problem with that would be bullies who want to use intimadation to force others into their way.

[beardy]

I think Green Guard is using irony to try and make a point. But then he could believe himself, in which case a dark room and medication would help.

[Green Guard]

Yes dark room and medication would really help to understand who and why created chaos and misery all over Middle East
and now in Ukraine too !
On the other hand lets "keep our heads in sand"
and feel happy about us.
We are always right. Never wrong.
Destined to rule the world.

[Green Guard]

Sorry MrSnuggels for hard feeling.
Nobody is stupid here.
The problem is that we are fed the tainted news every day in order to twist our rational thinking.
And so when we are confronted with a bare truth we feel stupid or even outraged.
Of Course NATO is to blame for the mess.
Even worse, to our fears, those who rule NATO are obviously pushing every corner and every stone in order to START the big war in Europe.
Now you think WHO WOULD BENEFIT FROM THAT ?

[Green Guard]

Rh200
>>Ukraines a free country, if they wanted to allow a US base there, thats theire business.

The only people in the know who would have a problem with that would be bullies who want to use intimadation to force others into their way.<<

OMG rh200 please wake up!
Its their business???
Ukraine is a free country !!
Well even Yugoslavia Iraq Afghanistan Libya Syria were free countries.
So what was "their business" to be bombed to misery ?
PS
Ukraine was created by Russia. Crimea was attached as a gift.
Israel too was created by SSSR so why don't you treat Palestine as a Free Country ?
USA got so many gifts from Russians too.
Like Alaska WWII victory Cold War Victory.
But now you follow that Biblical curse.
Give devil a finger he will want your body.

[Martin the Martian]

Green Guard, are you for real?

Well even Yugoslavia Iraq Afghanistan Libya Syria were free countries.
So what was "their business" to be bombed to misery ?

Yugolslavia had disintegrated into a number of warring republics with inter-ethnic slaughter on a scale not seen in Europe since Nazi Germany. It was the United Nations that interceded, with Russia voting with its fellow Security Council members.

Iraq: screw up.

Afghanistan was run by the Taliban, and though things aren't great there ask any Afghan woman what they think. By the way, wasn't Afghanistan also a free country in 1979?

Libya: see Iraq.

If President Assad didn't suffer so much from tunnel vision he might have seen which way the wind was blowing and offered to meet people half way. Direct military action from the west in Syria has been against IS forces, not the Syrian people or government.

Ukraine was created by Russia. Crimea was attached as a gift.

Ukraine as a territory was occupied by Russia decades before the USSR was created. And as for Crimea being a 'gift', it was hardly that. Blame Khruschev. From Pravda, 27 Feb 1954:

Decree of the Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet transferring the Crimea Province from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR.

Taking into account the integral character of the economy, the territorial proximity and the close economic and cultural ties between the Crimea Province and the Ukrainian SSR, the Presidium of the USSR Supreme Soviet decrees:

To approve the joint presentation of the Presidium of the Russian SFSR Supreme Soviet and the Presidium of the Ukrainian SSR Supreme Soviet on the transfer of the Crimea Province from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR.

Israel too was created by SSSR so why don't you treat Palestine as a Free Country ?

What are you talking about? The partition for Israel and Palestine was created by the United Nations -all of them. The USSR voted for partition as did most European and American nations. The UK abstained. Palestine would have been a free country from the start if their Arab neighbours had supported partition. They voted against, and invaded the territory instead.

USA got so many gifts from Russians too.
Like Alaska WWII victory Cold War Victory.

The USA purchased Alaska from Russia in 1867 for $7.2 million. It was a transaction; not a gift.

The Second World War: ever hear of Lend-Lease?

In total, the US deliveries through Lend-Lease amounted to $11 billion in materials: over 400,000 jeeps and trucks; 12,000 armored vehicles (including 7,000 tanks, about 1,386[26] of which were M3 Lees and 4,102 M4 Shermans); 11,400 aircraft (4,719 of which were Bell P-39 Airacobras) and 1.75 million tons of food.

Roughly 17.5 million tons of military equipment, vehicles, industrial supplies, and food were shipped from the Western Hemisphere to the USSR, 94% coming from the US. For comparison, a total of 22 million tons landed in Europe to supply American forces from January 1942 to May 1945. It has been estimated that American deliveries to the USSR through the Persian Corridor alone were sufficient, by US Army standards, to maintain sixty combat divisions in the line.

The United States gave to the Soviet Union from October 1, 1941 to May 31, 1945 the following: 427,284 trucks, 13,303 combat vehicles, 35,170 motorcycles, 2,328 ordnance service vehicles, 2,670,371 tons of petroleum products (gasoline and oil), 4,478,116 tons of foodstuffs (canned meats, sugar, flour, salt, etc.), 1,900 steam locomotives, 66 Diesel locomotives, 9,920 flat cars, 1,000 dump cars, 120 tank cars, and 35 heavy machinery cars. One item typical of many was a tire plant that was lifted bodily from the Ford Company's River Rouge Plant and transferred to the USSR. The 1947 money value of the supplies and services amounted to about eleven billion dollars.

In accordance with the Anglo-Soviet Military Supplies Agreement of 27 June 1942, military aid sent from Britain to the Soviet Union during the war was entirely free of charge. In June 1941 within weeks of the German invasion of the USSR the first British aid convoy set off along the dangerous Arctic sea routes to Murmansk arriving in September. It was carrying 40 Hawker Hurricanes along with 550 mechanics and pilots of No. 151 Wing to provide immediate air defence of the port and train Soviet pilots. After escorting Soviet bombers and scoring 14 kills for one loss, and completing the training of pilots and mechanics, No 151 Wing left in November their mission complete. The convoy was the first of many convoys to Murmansk and Archangelsk in what became known as the Arctic convoys, the returning ships carried the gold that the USSR was using to pay the US. Between June 1941 and May 1945 3,000+ Hurricanes were delivered to the USSR along with 4,000+ other aircraft, 5,218 tanks, 5,000+ anti-tank guns, 4,020 ambulances and trucks, 323 machinery trucks, 2,560 bren carriers, 1,721 motorcycles, £1.15bn worth of aircraft engines and 15 million pairs of boots in total 4 million tonnes of war materials including food and medical supplies were delivered. The munitions totaled £308m (not including naval munitions supplied), the food and raw materials totaled £120m in 1946 index. Naval assets supplied included a battleship, 9 destroyers, 4 submarines, 5 mine sweepers, 9 trawler minesweepers, over 600 radar and sonar sets, 41 anti submarine batteries, several hundred naval guns and rocket batteries.

Significant numbers of British Churchill and Matilda tanks along with US M3 Lee were shipped to the USSR after becoming obsolete on the African Front. The Churchills, supplied by the arctic convoys, saw action in the siege of St Petersburg and the battle of Kursk while tanks shipped by the Persian route supplied the Caucasian Front. With the USSR giving priority to the defence of Moscow for domestically produced tanks this resulted in 40% of tanks in service on the Caucasian Front being Lend-Lease models.

The Arctic convoys caused major changes to naval dispositions on both sides, which arguably had a major impact on the course of events in other theatres of war. As a result of early raids by destroyers on German coastal shipping and the Commando raid on Vaagso, Hitler was led to believe that the British intended to invade Norway again. This, together with the obvious need to stop convoy supplies reaching the Soviet Union, caused him to direct that heavier ships, centred on the battleship Tirpitz, be sent to Norway. The Channel Dash was partly undertaken for this reason.

As a "fleet in being", Tirpitz and the other German capital ships tied down British resources which might have been better used elsewhere, for example combating the Japanese in the Indian Ocean. The success of Gneisenau and Scharnhorst in Operation Berlin during early 1941 had demonstrated the potential German threat. However, as the air gap over the North Atlantic closed, Huff-Duff (radio triangulation equipment) improved, airborne centimetric radar was introduced and convoys received escort carrier protection, the scope for commerce raiding diminished.

Courtesy of Wikipedia.

Again, victory in Europe was not a gift. A lot of British blood was spilled to get that equipment to Russia.

Victory in the Cold War? The USSR could not match spending on armaments that the Americans were undertaking. Simple. Gorbachev saw which way the wind was blowing and acted accordingly.

Give a devil a finger he will want your body? Not biblical at all, my friend. You are thinking of the foot in the door, the slippery slope, the camel's nose etc. The biblical expression is from Job 1:12: The Lord said to Satan, "Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger." Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord.

Here's another biblical expression for you, from John 8:7: Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.

Poland 1939, The Baltic States 1940, Finland 1940, Bessarabia 1940, Manchuria 1945, Kuril Islands 1945, Hungary 1956, Czechoslovakia 1968, Afghanistan 1979, Armenia 1990, Chechnya 1994 and 1999, Georgia 2008, and of course Crimea 2014. I don't think you can cast any stones, Green Guard.

[rh200]

I think there's something a little extra in this months vodka:p. At least Ronald sort of made sense.;)

[glad rag]

<coughs> Salutin' Putin: inside a Russian troll house | World news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/02/putin-kremlin-inside-russian-troll-house)

[KenV]

Green Guard, are you for real?

Of course he is. And as is so often the case, his reality is spelled T-R-O-L-L.

[AreOut]

"2. LOTS of Russians are ALREADY fighting and dying for Putin in Crimea."

nobody is dying in Crimea pal :)

[peter we]

I don’t know if GG is a troll, but what he is saying is exactly what the majority of Russians believe, that NATO is a neo-nazi aggressor who is intent on war with the Holy Russian Empire. This what their Leader tells them to believe in constant propaganda on state TV (where 80% of Russians get their news, virtually nobody depends on the internet and is they do its Russian state sites). Here you learn of the evil Nato Nazis torturing, crucifying children and shooting prisoners - just like the German Nazi before them.

A large proportion of Russians think a war with NATO is inevitable and that a nuclear war can be won by Russia (because Europeans are homosexuals and paedophiles and therefore too effeminate to fight against "Real Men").

There is only one way to deal with such deluded, neo-fascist crazies; be prepared to defend ourselves.

nobody is dying in Crimea pal

Some Crimean Tartar's are, for refusing to accept Russian rule. They are being systematically persecuted.

[KenV]

"2. LOTS of Russians are ALREADY fighting and dying for Putin in Crimea."

nobody is dying in Crimea pal :)

Guess I'm yet another puppet being fooled by Western news, er propaganda outlets. :)

[Green Guard]

The propaganda about western democracy has been with us for long time now.
Your democracy is a simple demagogy, fueled by Hollywood so much so that even you start to believe in it.
If the "west" is so good healthy and happy, why do you produce so many wars around globe ?
Why poke the Russian bear now ?
Weren't you allies in WWII ?
Didn't they give you as a gift 3/4 of Berlin that you did not fight Hitler for ?
Didn't they give you whole of Yugoslavia as a gift in 1948 that Red Army liberated from Hitler ?
You wisely used Yugoslavia to cause Budapest and Prague uprising and eventually break up SSSR 4 decades later.
Main reason people in "east" fell victims of your propaganda also fueled by paradise in Yugoslavia at that time.
And as a reward as usual per your practice Yugoslavia was dismembered and ruined.
So the masks have been falling down lately.
The paradise you offer the world is simple hell.
Why else you tried to turn Crimea into your Army Base ?
So are you happy people or sick people ?

[Green Guard]

Thank you KenV, I mean thanks for compliment.

[Martin the Martian]

Post no.73:

I have read and re-read this several times and I still can't make any sense of it. I would be kind and say that it is possibly because English is not GG's first language, but then again...

[rh200]

Your democracy is a simple demagogy, fueled by Hollywood so much so that even you start to believe in it.

Could you expand on that point please, just which bit do we believe in?

[peter we]

Martin
Remember when Merkel said 'Putin was living on another planet'? well it applies to the general Russian population as well. Hitler did it with the Germans, you can very easily brainwash an entire nation with lies, but it helps if they are very keen to believe it.

If you want to understand their lunatic mindset, I sugguest reading websites like

The Interpreter (http://www.interpretermag.com/)

Putin Turns Up His Special War Against Europe | The XX Committee (http://20committee.com/2015/03/19/putin-turns-up-his-special-war-against-europe/)

http://www.interpretermag.com/something-has-gone-wrong-in-our-country/

[AreOut]

"Some Crimean Tartar's are, for refusing to accept Russian rule. They are being systematically persecuted."

why would they accept ukrainian rule but not russian(as it's basically same for them)? There are millions of Tatars living in Russia itself without any problems, stop believing propaganda.

[peter we]

The Crimean Tatars were deported from Crimea in 1944- illegally under Soviet laws. When Ukraine became independent they CHOOSE to leave Russia.

Closed down their TV station
Crimea's independent Tatar TV news channel silenced by 'red tape' | World news | The Guardian (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/apr/01/crimeas-independent-tatar-tv-news-channel-silenced-by-red-tape)

Banned their leader from Crimea
http://www.todayszaman.com/anasayfa_crimean-tatar-leader-banned-from-russia-including-crimea_345793.html

Dissapearances and murders
http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/new-atlanticist/crimean-tatars-disappear-nineteen-now-missing-since-russian-takeover

Back story


Since Russia illegally annexed Crimea just over a year ago, life for Crimean Tatars – the indigenous people of the Crimean peninsula – is no longer safe. They endured kidnapping, disappearance and persecution by authorities, which has forced about 10,000 Tatars to leave their homeland. Those who’ve stayed are facing political discrimination and wider mistreatment. The Kremlin’s most recent persecution of Crimean Tatars is only the latest chapter in a saga of Russian abuse that dates back 71 years.
This May marks the 71st anniversary of one of the gravest crimes perpetrated by the Soviet regime. In 1944, on the pretext of false accusations of state treason, Soviet leader Joseph Stalin ordered that 238,500 Tatars be forcibly deported from their homeland in Crimea as a form of collective punishment for their alleged collaboration with Nazis Germany from 1942 to 1943. The entire ethnic Crimean Tatar population, about one fifth of the total population of the Crimean Peninsula, as well as smaller number of ethnic Greeks and Bulgarians, were taken from their homes and transported mostly to Uzbekistan. Between July 1944 and January 1947, almost 110,000, or 46% of the deportees, died of starvation and disease. Many Tatars were made to work in large-scale projects implemented by the Soviet GULAG system.
In 1967, a Soviet decree withdrew Stalin’s baseless charges, but only in 1989 did the USSR Supreme Council declare the deportation of the Tatars illegal.
After the breakup of the Soviet Union in 1991, a newly independent Ukraine invited the ousted ethnic group to return to its homeland, providing the Tatars resources necessary for resettlement, as well as freedom to build mosques, schools, community centers, homes and businesses. The number of Crimean Tatars living in their native land gradually increased to 270,000, making up around 13% of Crimea’s population.
But now, yet again, Russia is aggressively making life miserable for Crimea’s populous, including its indigenous Tatars. Despite the unthinkable harm done and millions of innocent lives taken during his bloody regime, Stalin leadership is glorified in today’s Russia, and his modern day admirers are eager to follow in his footsteps.
In March of last year, the Kremlin staged a sham annexation “referendum” in Crimea to absorb the Ukrainian peninsula into Russia, following a hostile takeover by Russian military forces in unmarked uniforms. The vote – conducted while armed Russian soldiers stood by – has not been recognized by the United Nations.
.
.
Tatar People – known as the Mejlis – decided to boycott the vote. According to Mustafa Dzhemilev, its long-time leader, almost all of his people ignored it. Their rejection brought them into conflict with the Kremlin and its puppet authorities in Crimea and consequences have been severe.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesinternational/2015/05/18/russia-violates-civil-rights-of-crimean-tatars-in-occupied-crimea/

[Martin the Martian]

peter we:

Interesting, very interesting. God knows where it will lead.

Of course, it is all propaganda, and the Imperialist Nazi West(TM), which is full of homosexuals and paedophiles, wants to crush the peace loving people of Russia. Good job Vladimir is there to stop us.

Good ol' Vlad.

[Finningley Boy]

"We're half of what we were 10 years ago in many key areas..."


And Russia is less then a quarter of what the Soviet Union and the Warsaw pact were....

Two Nuclear armed parties squaring up, if it happens, then it goes nuclear, so it won't happen.

And we also have an RAF which is, in terms of frontline combat aircraft, less than a quarter of what it was in 1990. It would be less so were it not for the forced acknowledgment that we couldn't manage the current token show over Northern Iraq without retaining a third Tornado Squadron, supposedly due to disband toward the end of the year, come what may? Who knows. But the point being advanced is that Russia's behaviour has regressed back to the Cold War as well and they are rapidly doing something about their military posture!

Mind you so are we, but in a different manner altogether!:ok:

FB:)

[Frostchamber]

I don't know if this is 100% accurate but it's depressing - who'd have thought a few years ago that we'd reach such a point so quickly. Like the man said, numbers have a strength of their own. Numerically, at least a small nudge in a positive direction is needed in the SDSR.

RAF Faces Struggle to Find Extra Firepower After Cuts (excerpt) (http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/165057/raf-struggles-to-deploy-more-fighters-after-cuts.html)

[Green Guard]

Rh200
Nice try. Pretend not to understand.

Martin.
I would write in Martian but so far no help from Google Translate.

PS
About Crocodile tears for "indigenous people" called Tatars.
Ha ha ha.

They are indigenous in Tatarstan Republic in Russia perhaps but not in Crimea.

Even in Crimea they have their own Religion Culture Language and History.

Anybody here brave enough to describe in public the fate of American and Canadian "Tatars" ?
I mean anything other left from them except empty names from Redskins to the very name of Canada= kanata=village ?
Anybody dares to mention genocide of most part of North America ?
Even all innocent Japanese Americans in WWII who had no contact with Yamamoto were accused collaborators and what has happened to them ?
Exile to Siberia would have been a wishful thinking for most.

PS2
How come such nice peace loving people who joined WWII at the very end committed real Holocaust of 2 million young German POW after they surrendered to you?
http://youtu.be/nxh6FC-bwWQ

[peter we]

^ see? Living on another planet.

Formerly Russian-occupied countries know what they need to do and the Scandanavians have to accept that they must join Nato.

[Martin the Martian]

Green Guard

You seem to be deliberately ignoring very valid points that I and many others are putting forward, or making sarcastic comments probably because they do not fit with your world view.

In the west we are fully aware of what has been done to indigenous populations, minorities and ethnic groups both in time of war and peace and during colonial expansion. We do not hide from it and we do not ignore it. It is to our shame that these events have occurred.

I put it to you that it has not just happened in the west, and that the same events happened within the borders of Imperial Russia, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and the Russian Federation with just as much enthusiasm and prejudice. However, you would appear to be in denial regarding these events, as you are also about much of the history of the 20th century. To be blunt, neither of us are perfect, but only one of us is ready to accept the fact.

I do not intend to mention particular examples, as there is information available freely from a multitude of sources on the internet concerning the subject. I recommend you use google, as you appear to be familiar with it. Alternatively, you can just reply with another sarky remark and continue to fail to engage in reasoned debate and defend valid arguments.

[Green Guard]

Of course "valid arguments" are only those that suit us. Are they ?
Whether you use Google or propaganda you can not even compare ethnic cleansing in USA and Canada or in Palestine with any land under rule of Russia now or in the past.
For thousand years Tatars and some other Asian tribes raided Moscow and Russia at will killing and stealing goods and ladies. Some they married some they sold to south.
Yet Russia did not exterminate them when Russia became stronger party.

Just think about. There are 22 Republics in Russia today based on Indigenous population with their language and culture.
How many do you have in USA except just empty names ?
Do not forget that Communism was injected there in order to decimate the Russia.
That is another subject.
They got over it and still did not fall under Hitler in spite of many of Russians hated Communism more then you do.
===============
Just to remind all. The main subject here is "occupation of Crimea" and urging the rest of world to fight Russia to give it back to Kiyev i.e. give to US Army as a present !!!!
So do I still sound like living on other planet now ?

[Herod]

Green Guard.

Shortly before, during and immediately after World War II, Stalin conducted a series of deportations on a huge scale that profoundly affected the ethnic map of the Soviet Union. It is estimated that between 1941 and 1949 nearly 3.3 million were deported to Siberia and the Central Asian republics. By some estimates up to 43% of the resettled population died of diseases and malnutrition.
Separatism, resistance to Soviet rule and collaboration with the invading Germans were cited as the official reasons for the deportations. Individual circumstances of those spending time in German-occupied territories were not examined. After the brief Nazi occupation of the Caucasus, the entire population of five of the small highland peoples and the Crimean Tatars – more than a million people in total – were deported without notice or any opportunity to take their possessions.

As a result of Stalin's lack of trust in the loyalty of particular ethnicities, ethnic groups such as the Soviet Koreans, the Volga Germans, the Crimean Tatars, the Chechens, and many Poles were forcibly moved out of strategic areas and relocated to places in the central Soviet Union, especially Kazakhstan in Soviet Central Asia. By some estimates, hundreds of thousands of deportees may have died en route

According to official Soviet estimates, more than 14 million people passed through the Gulag from 1929 to 1953, with a further 7 to 8 million being deported and exiled to remote areas of the Soviet Union (including the entire nationalities in several cases).


This from just a quick look at Wiki. But of course, it probably never happened

[beardy]

The thread title refers to Russia and the Baltic Sea, not Kiev. But please don't stop, you are really brightening my day, I haven't laughed so much since grandmother died or aunty Mabel caught her left t*t in a mangle.

[ARRAKIS]

Yes. Some tend to forget Napoleon.
More tend to dismiss the truth how many other European including Polish soldiers marched with Napoleon to Moscow.
To put things in the right perspective, some half of Poland was occupied at the time by the Russian Empire.

While we're talking about Hitler's army, is this the time to mention that an estimated 800,000-1 million Russians fought and served within or alongside the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front?
One has to make the difference between ethnic Russians and inhabitants of Soviet Union at the time. Again, question of perspective (see below).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

Sometimes, things are not black or white in that part of the world.

Arrakis

[Green Guard]

Ok Guys
To make long story short.
Forget about Crimea.
You lost it.
My sincere condolence. Please try to be happy in Baltic states.
And forget about Balkan or Baltic people or Poles fighting Russians.
You will need to do it yourself.

Herrod.
You still do not know or pretend not to know who were Communist leaders in SSSR ?!
And with who they collaborated ?
Even to have somebody like Gorbachev or Yeltsin is your obvious wishful thinking.
Get sober.

[DirtyProp]

Rh200
Nice try. Pretend not to understand.

Martin.
I would write in Martian but so far no help from Google Translate.

PS
About Crocodile tears for "indigenous people" called Tatars.
Ha ha ha.

They are indigenous in Tatarstan Republic in Russia perhaps but not in Crimea.

Even in Crimea they have their own Religion Culture Language and History.

Anybody here brave enough to describe in public the fate of American and Canadian "Tatars" ?
I mean anything other left from them except empty names from Redskins to the very name of Canada= kanata=village ?
Anybody dares to mention genocide of most part of North America ?
Even all innocent Japanese Americans in WWII who had no contact with Yamamoto were accused collaborators and what has happened to them ?
Exile to Siberia would have been a wishful thinking for most.

PS2
How come such nice peace loving people who joined WWII at the very end committed real Holocaust of 2 million young German POW after they surrendered to you?
http://youtu.be/nxh6FC-bwWQ
So let me get this straight.
Because we (Europeans, Americans, etc) did some nasty stuff in the past, you feel justified and entitled to do the same nasty stuff now?
So much for quiet, peace-loving people....

[rh200]

Forget about Crimea.

Nah, but it could be a good bargening chip for solving the Ukranian crisis.

You lost it.

Ahh, no, it was never ours, it was the Ukrainians, hence they lost it, or should I say stolen.

[ORAC]

These Putin paid trolls get very tiring. Easier just to add them to the "ignore" list.

[Green Guard]

Dirty Prop
Why you enjoy to sound dirty and blame the victims as usual ?
((Because we (Europeans, Americans, etc) did some nasty stuff in the past, you feel justified and entitled to do the same nasty stuff now?))
Your nasty stuff is your nasty stuff.
And YOU TRY TO KEEP IT REPEATING this time in ME and Europe.
Tatars have their Republic.
If few of them are victims of your promises it won't last long.
When did a hungry wolf protect a lamb?
Where is any American Natives Republic ?
On Mars ?
Get Real !

[Red Line Entry]

Green Guard,

I would be intersted in your view of the Baltic States. In your opinion, to what extent do the governments of Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia have the right to determine the future of their countries?

[Green Guard]

Good question.
They are now in the situation of orphans
and desperate to attract the attention.
They need support not war.
Unfortunately at the moment the war may look
like as their only hope.
Till they wake up.

[AreOut]

I wouldn't be scared of Russia, they are good in defence but awful in attack.

[Green Guard]

rh200
I like you.
>>Ahh, no, it was never ours, it was the Ukrainians, hence they lost it, or should I say stolen.<<

Hm. It never belonged to Ukraine. Ukraine never fought for it. They probably hoped you would fight Russia for them and they still do.
They are spoiled brats i.e.. spoiled Russian brothers.
Crimea was assigned as part of Ukraine by Communists in 1954 as a free brotherly gift.
Russians didn't mind it stayed under Ukraine control from 25 years ago when they chose to separate.
But when Ukries sold that brotherly gift to USA Army......aaa well.
We are now on another planet.

[rh200]

These Putin paid trolls get very tiring. Easier just to add them to the "ignore" list.

Actually I find it entertaining, though some would say I'm not quite right in the head (Que hempy:p)

GG

we seem to have conflict here.

Hm. It never belonged to Ukraine. Ukraine never fought for it.

Are you saying if you fight for something its yours, if not its not? Thats the main metric we go by in the 21 st century?

Crimea was assigned as part of Ukraine by Communists in 1954 as a free brotherly gift.

But here you seem to indicate that was theirs as it was given to them? Which is it?

[Hempy]

Here I come, on cue.

I'm pretty sure Green Guard is saying that the Crimean Peninsula, historically, was never a part of Ukrainian territory until 1954, when it was handed to the Ukraine by the USSR to be a part of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. The Ukraine gave the Crimea autonomous control under Ukrainian protection after the collapse of the USSR in 1991, and now 'Russia' is claiming it back again as 'their territory'.

The term 'renege' comes to mind.

p.s I didn't say you were 'not quite right in the head', I said there were a few roos loose in the top paddock. Probably amounts to about the same thing on occasion though.

[Green Guard]

Rh200
Hempy has good points.

Ps
There are no Ukrainians living in Crimea.
It never belonged to them anyway.
I meant they never fought to defend it.
Russians were attacked there by English French and Ottomans and had to fight bloody battle for three years 170 years ago.

http://www.britannica.com/event/Crimean-War

Also when the brotherly transfer was done in 1954 it was done illegally !!!.
The constitution was amended 3 days AFTER the transfer.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_transfer_of_Crimea

Ps
Even Baltic states were separated illegally....
So they are now as happy as orphans, plus
in company of some nasty pedofiles.

[NutLoose]

The thread title refers to Russia and the Baltic Sea, not Kiev. But please don't stop, you are really brightening my day, I haven't laughed so much since grandmother died or aunty Mabel caught her left t*t in a mangle.


Ohh dear I hope she is doing ok, please keep us abreast of your Aunty Mabel's condition.

[Green Guard]

Looks like his own balls fell in a gear box.

[Martin the Martian]

Even Baltic states were separated illegally....

Please clarify.

[ORAC]

I believe it is a reference to this (review-baltic-independence/). Though they are back peddling frantically (http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=44113&tx_ttnews%5BbackPid%5D=7&cHash=ca3c5f4ed665677eb7ed6eade2d1f431#.VZqY8Hg-OgM).

needless to say the baltic states are not happy (https://euobserver.com/foreign/129405).......

I think GG is slightly off message. Not read the hot file since he got to work.

[Red Line Entry]

Green Guard,

We in the UK also lost an Empire, but we got over it. We do not seek to again rule Pakistan, India, large swathes of Africa or, indeed, the USA. These are now independent countries with their own desires and wishes. The principle of self-determination is paramount. If any of these ex-CCCP countries, that you wish to have back, chose to join Russia again, I would support you completely. But they have to want to do so - aiming to repossess them by force is lunacy.

[Hempy]

Red Line. Putin is a member of the 'Soviet generation'.

Im not suggesting what you say about the British Empire is wrong, I'm just putting it to you that until those born before 1990 are irrelevant, history still has an influence.

Putin is still living in 1985. That's why he's dangerous.

[KenV]

Ooops. Posted to wrong thread somehow.

[Lonewolf_50]

Rh200: Hempy has good points.
About the roos loose in the top paddock, to be sure.
Ps. There are no Ukrainians living in Crimea. It never belonged to them anyway. I meant they never fought to defend it. Russians were attacked there by English French and Ottomans and had to fight bloody battle for three years 170 years ago.
Irrelevant to the current conversation, however.
Pro Tip: argument by shotgun blast (throwing every topic you can onto the page) rarely works. I usuallyl only succeeds in hurting your credibility. Try to stay focused within a given paragraph. I realize English may not be your native language. Our general structural method is to give each topic its own place, then proceed to another topic.
Even Baltic states were separated illegally....
No, they were not. One might argue that their being occupied back in the 40's was illegal ... but then, when it comes to international law, laws are only as good as their enforcement.
So they are now as happy as orphans, plus in company of some nasty pedofiles. Now that was funny, I laughed into my coffee mug.

Back to the Baltic and our Scandanavian friends disliking their big neighbor: welcome to the post cold war world. It is multi polar, and more dangerous in a lot of ways.

[MrSnuggles]

Oh dear, I came back and was really not prepared for this...

Green Guard

Thank you for clarifying your post for me. What I still don't understand (and I think I said this before) is why you need to talk about things that happened many hundred years before now. As I also said, noone wants to invade Russia now. Why would you think so? Who said that?

Lonewolf_50

I don't think anyone in Scandinavia dislikes Russians. I do believe that many are worried about the current Russian attitude towards Russia's neighbours. Generally, Russian people are very friendly and fun, it's just that somehow they always get these stupid leaders that wants to go to war instead of promoting the Russian food, folk lore and music. Russia has a very amazing heritage in this area, sadly not many get to see this because the leaders instead want to show off "guns and ammo"...

[Lonewolf_50]

I don't think anyone in Scandinavia dislikes Russians. I do believe that many are worried about the current Russian attitude towards Russia's neighbours. Generally, Russian people are very friendly and fun, it's just that somehow they always get these stupid leaders that wants to go to war instead of promoting the Russian food, folk lore and music. Russia has a very amazing heritage in this area, sadly not many get to see this because the leaders instead want to show off "guns and ammo"... I don't dislike Russians. My greatest frustration with Bill Clinton's 8 years, and of his friends in Europe during that time, is the missed opportunity to bring Russia into the Western fold and make our former enemies allies, with an eye toward things working out vis a vis Japan and Germany after WW 2.

Screwed the pooch is all they did. There were some promising cooperative efforts in the mid 90's that were killed off by the decision to go after Serbia for the sake of Kosovars and Albanians, after Bosnia was more or less sorted. 70 days of bombing Serbia ... for what?

It sent the Russians a message they are not likely to forget.

[AreOut]

"I'm pretty sure Green Guard is saying that the Crimean Peninsula, historically, was never a part of Ukrainian territory until 1954, when it was handed to the Ukraine by the USSR to be a part of the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. The Ukraine gave the Crimea autonomous control under Ukrainian protection after the collapse of the USSR in 1991, and now 'Russia' is claiming it back again as 'their territory'."

it was handed to Ukraine under presumption it will never leave Soviet Union, back then noone in USSR dared to even think about dissolution

the problem is that back in 1991 noone in Russia thought that Ukrainians might want to join EU&NATO one day, so leasing Crimea from Ukraine looked like the most simple option for them, bad judgement again

[ARRAKIS]

There are no Ukrainians living in Crimea.
Beg to differ.
During the 1897 census there was 35.55% Crimean Tatars, 33.11% Russians, 11.84% Ukrainians and 19.51 others. During 2001 census there was 58.5% Russians, 24.4% Ukrainians and 12.1% Tatars.

Arrakis