A RAF C17 is going to Tunisia.Slow response from UK?

[Hangarshuffle]

Soon be on its way. I think to help fly people out.
RAF personnel prepare for Tunisia flight - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/update/2015-06-29/raf-personnel-prepare-for-tunisia-flight/)
Its 72 hours since the attacks. On TV many people caught up in the attack seemed in distress because their travel companies couldn't get them out quick enough (via planes).
I've no idea whether 72 hours+ later is a quick or slow response to help in the mass evacuation of British civilians caught up in the biggest murder of UK nationals abroad I can ever recently remember (someone remind me of a worse one).
But at a guess, I think its slowish.That is not a criticism of anyone.
My question is,seriously, is this where we now are? If you are attacked abroad in a mas outrage, its simply wait it out for easyjet and co?
In these times, is it reasonable to expect help from your own government or military pretty well within 24 hours? 48 hours?
Again, this is not a criticism of anyone.

[ORAC]

My understanding is it is to repatriate the coffins of the deceased. It has had to wait for the local coroner to identify and release the bodies.

[highflyer40]

I don't think there is any need for the government to get involved. The holiday companies can get them home as soon as they can, as they are doing . Everyone is safe now as security will be tight.

[Fortissimo]

The use of military assets for an essentially civilian task has to be asked for by someone outside MOD, and is normally done only where life is at risk or there is no other means of achieving the task. As I understand it, the C17 is on standby for an aeromed task as it is able to fly very sick people in what becomes effectively an airborne intensive care unit. We have Afghanistan to thank for developments with that capability. By the nature of that task, you must have a careful assessment of casualty needs before you embark on it, to make sure you have the right staff and equipment on board (eg you don't fly someone who might require surgical intervention in flight without taking a surgeon with you).

Tragic though this case is, the mass evacuation is currently voluntary and the immediate threat of further violence would seem to have receded somewhat with the death of the individual concerned. The commercial operators are acting as they should by bringing people home as fast as possible, and this has been going on since Friday. This actually an FCO responsibility, as is the repatriation of bodies.

Could the UK have responded faster? The FCO and consular teams were on the spot very quickly, it just didn't make the news. And sending military air assets also requires diplomatic clearance which, as the Nepal experience showed, can take days or not be forthcoming at all. This is where the RN has an advantage, because free passage of international waters allows ships to move wherever. I expect we can all cite examples of the RN diverting ships towards the latest trouble spot. In fact the duty frigate is probably en route right now...

As for expectations of government or military support, it is entirely reasonable to expect rapid consular assistance anywhere in the world. But unless the circumstances are so dangerous or difficult that there is no civilian option, use of military assets should be a last resort and we should not expect it. Nor should we as taxpayers be required to fund the necessary readiness state.

[Fortissimo]

And it seems now as if there may also be a repatriation task. If that is the Govt making a political statement about its anti-terrorism stance, then so be it. I just hope it does not create false expectations for the future. I also hope that it does not cause grief for those whose loved one's non-operational death in service was not deemed high-profile enough to warrant the same treatment as civilians unfortunate enough to die in a terrorist attack while on holiday.

[Danny42C]

Only hope that, if and when it lands there, a couple of chaps don't turn up on a motorbike with a RPG.

D.

[PhilipG]

Interesting decision to send a C17 as opposed to a Voyager. I would have thought a Voyager would have been more comfortable if it is for repatriation.

[Fortissimo]

C17 offers more space for a medevac than Voyager, easier tie-down for equipment etc. As for the other repatriation, it will be for coffins so comfort is sadly not an issue.

[teeteringhead]

Tragic though this case is, the mass evacuation is currently voluntary and the immediate threat of further violence would seem to have receded somewhat with the death of the individual concerned. Indeed - discussing over a family BBQ at the weekend with Milady, Son-and-Heir and the Teeterettes we all agreed (almost a first!) that Tunis was probably the safest place on Earth for a holiday at the moment .......

[mmitch]

The RAF website says the C17 has departed with Medevac teams to bring home 4 seriously injured people.
RAF C17 Leaves for Tunisia (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive/raf-c17-leaves-for-tunisia-29062015)
mmitch.

[Danny42C]

Seems the C-17 must be a remarkable aircraft. Apparently it can fly "while offering medical teams 365 degree access to patients" (RAF News).

Had a look at my Nav protractor (shades of ITW), but I'm five short ! :confused:

D.

[air pig]

Clearly someone somewhere high up has auth'd the mission as a UK air ambulance company has already repatriated a patient on Saturday from Tunisia to Wales.

C17 makes sense with an augmented CCAST team in particular with the types of injury sustained, civilian operators have little experience of dealing with gunshot trauma in the in-flight environment. Most civilian AAs are based on the LJ35/36 or King Air/Cheyenne airframes. They are not big enough for a mass casualty evacuation. The only companies that I know that has more than one/two stretcher capable A/C are IAS and Phoenix Air in the USA who use G3s. To use a civil airliner would take time to assemble both material and personnel.

Voyager will have been cleared for medevacs but you need a high lifter to access the cabin a C17 is tried and tested.

Hangershuffle, it may appear slow but you are in an environment where local medical teams will have limited experience, equipment and things like blood and blood products in managing gunshot injuries unlike Camp bastion which was so experienced and knew when it was safe to move patients following resuscitative battle damage surgery. Thankfully in the UK we now have a large number of surgeons and medical teams experienced in this form of surgery back in the NHS and development continues through the Royal College of Surgeons.

[Pontius Navigator]

Danny, you need an Army one, goes to 1,000 I think :)

[highflyer40]

Well i do hope the insurance companies/holiday tour companies will then be reimbursing the government for the cost of this repatriation?

[Lou Scannon]

Back in the early seventies Cyprus was invaded by the Turkish Army and Air Force, The RAF carried out a major evac of the British tourists who in some cases arrived back here still in their beach kit.

C130's, Belfasts, VC10's etc were all involved as were the Phantoms providing air cover.

Mind you, we still had an air capability in those days!

[ORAC]

Phantoms? IIRC 'twas the Lightnings of 56 Sqn.

[Managed Descent]

Highflyer 40, I consider this is one of the reasons we pay taxes. These people are our own. We do not speak of money.

[spekesoftly]

The Lightnings of 56 Sqn were reinforced by a dozen or so Phantoms dispatched to Akrotiri between 21st and 23rd July 1974.

The evacuation included tourists of many nationalities, Cypriot locals, and service families that lived outside the SBAs, including the wife of yours truly.

[Roadster280]

Danny, you need an Army one, goes to 1,000 I think :)

6400 - mils!

[Thelma Viaduct]

Well i do hope the insurance companies/holiday tour companies will then be reimbursing the government for the cost of this repatriation?

The British government's illegal exploits in iraq and waste of time, money and lives in Afghanistan is the main reason these 'terrorists' are a bit pi$$ed off and killing innocent civilians on holiday.

Are the British government reimbursing the families of dead soldiers for the lies of iraq and pointless exploits in Afghanistan??? Ask yourself that question, cock.

[Danny42C]

Pontius Navigator (your #13).

YLSNED ! But wouldn't the casevac medics then want a 1000 degree access to their patients ?

It doesn't stop there ! (this filched from a Google menu, my Bold print):

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Danny.

[Hangarshuffle]

Some good answers and thoughts. In retrospect getting a fully fitted medical aid C17 in within 72 hours is really very good. And seems to tie in with what the doctors in Tunisia seem to want, i.e. stabilize people before medvac out. So it probably could have gone a lot earlier if required. They just timed it so thus.
I am just about old enough to remember the evacuation of Cyprus with the RAF aircraft Lou mentioned and a pretty good show it was. Could we do a similar thing somewhere now? Should we ever plan to?
You can get a ticket out of Tunisia to any London airport tomorrow or during the week on a civvy airline for £92 according to lastminute .com so the crisis of movement is passing or probably now passed. Reps and holiday companies seemed to rally well under the circumstances in the end.
Seems horrendous, all of this. The older I get now the less I now want to travel abroad. A mate of mine has a simple template that if the ground outside his abroad hotel will contain more sand than soil then he will never travel there because it means the potential is there for madness. Gradually the lovely Mediterranean is being made less and less attractive.

[Exascot]

If this is aeromed I presume the travel insurance companies are paying. I did two with the VC10 when this was the situation.

We are not talking about British nationals working abroad or diplomats. They are tourists who had chosen to go to a dodgy area. And, come on, what are the chances of another attack in the final few days of their holiday. Enjoy the empty beaches. Pathetic.

[Lou Scannon]

"The British government's illegal exploits in iraq and waste of time, money and lives in Afghanistan is the main reason these 'terrorists' are a bit pi$$ed off and killing innocent civilians on holiday."

Well Pious, The 9-11 attack on the World Trade Centre was before Afghanistan so think again. Believe me, these terrorists don't need any provocation to satisfy their psychopathic urges to lay their hands on innocent victims.

Their reward (or so they believe) is to be given a whole bunch of virgins to rape.

Lovely people indeed!

[Wander00]

In 74 we had relatives with young kids on holiday in N Cyprus. They were airlifted off the beach by a Hercules, having been enthralled by the Turkish jets flying low. Next year parents asked the kids what they wanted to do for a holiday. "Can we have the same again" was the reply!

[BBK]

Ex ascot

I think the definition of "dodgy area" is when the FCO advise against all but essential travel. I don't believe Tunisia was on the list.

Your other comments are just vile but that's just my humble opinion.

BBK

[Fareastdriver]

The reason we have so many Islamic extremists in Iraq and Libya is because we stopped Saddam and Gaddafi from hanging them.

[mopardave]

The reason we have so many Islamic extremists in Iraq and Libya is because we stopped Saddam and Gaddafi from hanging them.

So it would seem. At least they kept their home grown wacko's in check........but Bliar knew best didn't he. :E

[ValMORNA]

mopardav: quote; 'but Bliar knew best didn't he'


He certainly knew the best contacts and has been filling his boots ever since. Ghastly man.

[air pig]

Hangershuffle, you can turn a C17 round in a matter of hours, all the med kit is with TMW at Brize. The main problem is probably diplomatic and getting the FCO into gear over a weekend.

[Thelma Viaduct]

"The British government's illegal exploits in iraq and waste of time, money and lives in Afghanistan is the main reason these 'terrorists' are a bit pi$$ed off and killing innocent civilians on holiday."

Well Pious, The 9-11 attack on the World Trade Centre was before Afghanistan so think again. Believe me, these terrorists don't need any provocation to satisfy their psychopathic urges to lay their hands on innocent victims.

Their reward (or so they believe) is to be given a whole bunch of virgins to rape.

Lovely people indeed!

With all due respect, bo110cks.

[Laarbruch72]

Highflyer40: Well i do hope the insurance companies/holiday tour companies will then be reimbursing the government for the cost of this repatriation?

Why would tour operators or insurance companies be reimbursing the government for something they've not asked for? The tour operators (and in a few cases the insurance companies / air ambulances) have been repatriating people since Friday night / Saturday morning.

The fact that the UK Government wants to send a message by helping out it's nationals is great and I'm sure some of those injured customers without travel insurance are reassured by the sight of the RAF, but the targets for your venom shouldn't be either tour operators or insurance companies. They have repatriated thousands so far, and neither have cost the taxpayer a penny.

[mopardave]

He certainly knew the best contacts and has been filling his boots ever since. Ghastly man.

the thought of that charlatan makes me want to vomit! apologies for venting my spleen and the thread drift! :mad:

[glad rag]

With all due respect, bo110cks.

Outstanding debating skills.

[air pig]

laarbruch 72, very true, one company from the UK has repatriated a patient back to a Welsh hospital on Saturday, and anybody who travels without travel insurance is a damn fool.

[Warmtoast]

Medivac 1960's Style.
This is how we did it in the early 1960's and shows the layout in a Britannia (looking aft) in 1960 whilst I was with 99 Sqn.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Lyneham/BritanniaRAF253CMk1Cabin-MedEvacLay.jpg


This photo with the accompanying medics is a screen grab from 8mm cine film so not particularly sharp.
http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r231/thawes/RAF%20Lyneham/ParisAirShow-May1961-3.jpg

[air pig]

Well i do hope the insurance companies/holiday tour companies will then be reimbursing the government for the cost of this repatriation?

if you look at your travel or any insurance you are not covered for an act of terrorism or war.

[Not_a_boffin]

With all due respect, bo110cks.

Breathtaking grasp of timelines and dates too.

[Exascot]

BBK you do not need FCO advice, you just read the newspapers and I don't mean the tabloids.

As for my comments being offensive, to you, I apologise, you have clearly
never been in a war zone. You put it behind you and get out the cold beers.

As for the relatives of the deceased and the injured that is of course a completely different matter. May they get over it soon and the perpetrators rot in hell.

[Uncle Ginsters]

This response may have been 72hrs after the actual event, but that is in no way 'slow'.

There are two key drivers for that timeline:

1. Diplomatic clearances. It may come as a surprise to many that we can't simply turn up to pick up our own from a foreign land.
2. The primary driver; patient condition. Moving a critical patient from an ICU to an AeroMed ac and then back to ICU at the far end is no mean feat. The patient has to be declared stable enough so that the move does not endanger them. This can take days or even weeks.

No doubt the crews/CCAST team were ready and waiting as needed but all of the pieces have to be in place first.

[air pig]

Uncle Ginsters.

This response may have been 72hrs after the actual event, but that is in no way 'slow'.

There are two key drivers for that timeline:

1. Diplomatic clearances. It may come as a surprise to many that we can't simply turn up to pick up our own from a foreign land.
2. The primary driver; patient condition. Moving a critical patient from an ICU to an AeroMed ac and then back to ICU at the far end is no mean feat. The patient has to be declared stable enough so that the move does not endanger them. This can take days or even weeks.

No doubt the crews/CCAST team were ready and waiting as needed but all of the pieces have to be in place first.

Your point 1, clearances in particular of a weekend can be difficult to obtain, in fact I was part of a crew moving an ICU patient and to get a transit airfield management moving to be ready for our arrival as we had temp/runway length constraints our operations team contacted the minister of aviation for that country.

Your point 2, is very true unless you are moving the patient to a place of care that is a great improvement on what is available locally. One patient has been transferred to the Trauma ICU at the QE. Compared what may have been available locally a calculation of risk is required against benefit. For a transfer of this kind, you probably can't much improve on the level of care that a CCAST Team can provide. The other problem is finding a staffed bed in an appropriate ICU at the receiving hospital.

The local hospital may have limited resources to treat and manage the patients and that includes experience of the medical and nursing staff and that may influence the risk/benefit analysis.

[KenV]

The British government's illegal exploits in iraq and waste of time, money and lives in Afghanistan is the main reason these 'terrorists' are a bit pi$$ed off and killing innocent civilians on holiday.

And there its is. The British government is responsible for the actions of senseless (and heartless) terrorists. When are the mindless sheep going to learn to stop making excuses for the monsters and support decisive and forceful action to eliminate them?

[KenV]

Interesting decision to send a C17 as opposed to a Voyager.

1. There's a big difference between an advertized A330MRTT medevac capability using Airbus proprietary medevac systems and a proven medevac capability using several different off the shelf medevac systems offered by many different companies.

2. Loading stretcher patients in a C-17 does not require a high-lift loader like the A330.

3. Loading stretcher patients in an A330MRTT without a freighter door (which the Voyager does not have) is VERY difficult. A330MRTTs with no freighter door can essentially only handle ambulatory medevac patients.

[PhilipG]

Thanks for the helpful explanation Ken.
Philip

[chopper2004]

Just found out one of my mates son's best mate is staying 100 yards from where the attack took place. She and her family are determined to finish their holiday.

According to the Beeb, the next C-17 out tonight/ tomorrow is to bring back the deceased and then HM Coroner start the chain of inquiry / inquests.

Last year I wrote up a detailed report on CCAST role during the decade or so during Afghanistan ops.

Atb speedy recovery to those medevaced today...and RIP to the deceased

[Martin the Martian]

chopper2004: good for them. Some of the wailing from tourists who are complaining that the holiday companies aren't doing enough to get them home has been disgusting, particularly as the reps have been doing everything they can to support the bereaved and the injured.

I heard an interview with the father of a young woman who was in hospital after receiving wounds in her limbs from a grenade blast, who was explaining that even the sound of the local language is panicking her. Perhaps those wanting to get home, most of whom I suspect were nowhere near the attack, would like to visit the injured and bereaved to get some perspective.

[Junglydaz]

MTM

:D:D:D. Very well said. Most of those moaning weren't even in the immediate area under threat. Pathetic.

[air pig]

MTM, second your sentiments.

[Training Risky]

Originally Posted by Pious Pilot
With all due respect, bo110cks.



What a throbber!

Watching the arrival back at Brize Norton now. Does anyone else find it a little strange that the SWO is saluting the coffins? Fully agree with the need for a dignified repatriation service, and I am no QR geek, but it doesn't seem quite right?

[Wander00]

IMHO, absolutely correct and proper. Civilian would raise hat, serviceman salutes. QCS doing the "business" as always

[Training Risky]

Ah, actually that does ring a bell somewhere: social etiquette classes at Cranditz...along with saluting the Staish's wife and writing little thank you notes the next day!

Interesting point I heard just now about the full military honours repatriation. Is it a bad idea because it gives ISIS even more press coverage for their vile acts, or is it a good idea so that the Government can say to the country: "Look, this is now a war, these civilians are casualties of this war, let's start bombing ISIS in Libya/Syria/etc"!!!

[Whenurhappy]

getting the FCO into gear over a weekend.

A bit of a cheap shot. The FCO Contingencies Centre was activated within minutes of news of the attack and specialist consular teams were on site within 6 - 12 hours, in addition, of course, to the in-country team that can call upon neighbouring UK missions (and assistance from other European countries, too).

Sadly, since the Bali bombing and the Tsunami, this is a well-practised FCO capability, and not limited to 9-5, Monday to Friday. I know; I work in a 'front line' Embassy.

[unclenelli]

Airpig & Uncle G
The Dips is not a problem (as AP would seem to already know) . These would have been dip'd under the standing no-notice authority by the DA/Amb level across France, Italy and Spain, Tunis would have been even higher!).
STS/ATFMX STS/HUM STS/HOSP would have been applied to these flights in the FPL (since 2005, BZN have been able to self-auth under licence, meaning no CTOT aka Slot-time from EuroControl.) (GA-PPruners WARNING - Audits are regularly checked to ensure paperwork is in place, with fines for those who haven't!)

--------------------------------

The delay would have been the nationality ID to enable relase of the bodies to the right nation.

How many people carry ID to a beach when wearing trunks or bikini/swimsuit?
I wouldn't!

The local authorities would have been trawling the hotels for rooms unexpectedly unoccupied (reported by cleaners) for several nights, searching them for fingerprints/DNA, comparisons with victims.


-------------------------------------

On a more compaassionate level, as someone who has served in BZN Ops in the past, and witnessed many a mil RePat, I can confirm that from the moment they were entrusted into UK care, they will have been treated with the utmost compassion & respect that the UK people consider normal & appropriate to the departed. May I wish my personal condolences to ALL families.

Especially to the family of the victim (& his patient wife) who shares a name with my brother, who has recently stayed at a hotel 2 doors along from that beach, what a spooky coinidence! - I have had to reassure several people (friends & family) that they were of the wrong assumption & that my brother was safely home in the UK and not involved, but still with the eirie feeling that someone sharing his name was a victim.

[air pig]

Unclenelli,

Airpig & Uncle G
The Dips is not a problem (as AP would seem to already know) . These would have been dip'd under the standing no-notice authority by the DA/Amb level across France, Italy and Spain, Tunis would have been even higher!).
STS/ATFMX STS/HUM STS/HOSP would have been applied to these flights in the FPL (since 2005, BZN have been able to self-auth under licence, meaning no CTOT aka Slot-time from EuroControl.) (GA-PPruners WARNING - Audits are regularly checked to ensure paperwork is in place, with fines for those who haven't!)

My experience is in the civilian AA system. My comment was referring to airway clearances not diplomatic which I suspect was expedited at government level. As you say in such an incident you treat the injured and sort the rest out later same as any mass civilian casualty situation.

As always the 99 Squadron the people at Brize and the Regiment showed the RAF at it's best.

[Hangarshuffle]

I thought the repatriation at BZN by the RAF looked dignified and correct in all respects.
Many,many people appreciate the efforts of the service people and other HMG involved, I for one.

[Thelma Viaduct]

Breathtaking grasp of timelines and dates too.

Timelines eh......the CIA created, armed, financed Al-Qaeda well before 9/11, UK sold chemical weapons to Saddam Hussein. We were best pals til he stopped dancing to the yanky tune. Who has the oil contracts now? Follow the money.

There's 500,000 dead Iraqis since they were 'liberated' and given 'democracy', how many Afghans, Palestinians??

You're blinkered beyond belief, look at the bigger picture.

[VinRouge]

Pious, stop being a throbber. Not the time nor the place to discuss politics.

[air pig]

Politics belong in Jet Blast.

[Training Risky]

Pious - you are David Icke in a big lizard mask, and I claim my £5.

[Uncle Ginsters]

The Dips is not a problem (as AP would seem to already know) . These would have been dip'd under the standing no-notice authority by the DA/Amb level across France, Italy and Spain, Tunis would have been even higher!).
STS/ATFMX STS/HUM STS/HOSP would have been applied to these flights in the FPL (since 2005, BZN have been able to self-auth under licence, meaning no CTOT aka Slot-time from EuroControl.) (GA-PPruners WARNING - Audits are regularly checked to ensure paperwork is in place, with fines for those who haven't!)

Thanks for that Nelli but that info is now a little out of date.

Brize's authority to issue ATFMX status was linked to HERRICK and no longer stands for these kinds of sorties. That is not to say that it can't be issued in conjunction with EuroControl, of course.

The flights both attract HOSP status, as you say, which can help immensely and effectively negates the need for the ATFMX status.

Yes, there are standing Dips for most Euro neighbours. I can, however, say with some certainty that the Tunis Dip was less than forthcoming, arriving with the crew only minutes before engine start - this is not unusual.

A sad week indeed - thoughts and prayers with those and theirs.