A320 calling FCU actions

[MD83FO]

does your company have a specific way of calling what is done by the pilot flying on the FCU? (autopilot on)
(speed selected 250, speed managed, heading pulled 180?)
or do you just announce FMA response.

Thanks a lot.

[Denti]

The PF calling what he does for the PM? We require the PM to monitor, therefore, nope. Only exception is altitude clearances, those are called (250 blue/checked).

[vilas]

MD83FO
Any action on FCU needs to be confirmed on FMA so change to HDG from NAV must be called before setting the HDG. Speed if changed from Managed or vice versa must be announced to keep PM in loop.

[FlyingStone]

PF manages FCU silently, but then of course reads PFD (FMA, altitude, heading).

[Skornogr4phy]

My company only requires us to call the FMA, but most pilots will announce their actions too.

[Cak]

If your company follows strictly Airbus procedures, then any change should be announced. It is written in FCTM under Communication chapter

[FlyingStone]

Each time one flight crewmember adjusts or
changes information and/or equipment on the flight deck, the other flight crewmember must be
notified, and an acknowledgement must be obtained.

Isn't reading the FMA by PF and response from PM enough to satisfy this? The AFDS is only doing what it says on the FMA - this may or may not be the same as request input on FCU.

[vilas]

FlyingStone
Sure. One doesn't read FCU but PFD changes on FMA, HDG, Altitude, speed selected or managed by change of colour needs to be called.

[Stone_cold]

Do you have a reference for this vilas ? Where does Airbus state that airspeed colours have to be called ?

[vilas]

For better crew coordination in airbus SOP nothing is done quietly. Any change on the FCU is checked by PF on PFD to first confirm it is happening and called out to keep PM in the loop. If you change speed reference from managed to select or vice versa how would you keep the PM informed? You may announce speed managed or select but that does not convey you have checked it on PFD and unless you see the colour it may not have happened.

[Black Pudding]

FCU Fiction. FMA Fact

[mcdude]

Black Pudding - FCOM states:

"All actions performed on the FCU and MCDU must be checked on the PFD and ND (eg.: “FL 350 blue”, “FL 200 magenta"). Ensure that the correct FCU knob is used, then verify indications on the PFD/ND"

So it is probably more like FMA Fiction, PFD Fact.

There are also specific FCU commands by PF listed in FCOM, mostly used when AP is OFF e.g. "MANAGE SPEED", "HEADING PULL" etc.

[Stone_cold]

Doesn't say anything about the Speed colour . "Managed ,Selected" , yes .

Would you not say "managed speed " or "selected speed " after you made the selection and seen the change ?

I asked vilas to defend his statement for the colour not the action by a reference to FCOM .

There is a tendency to state techniques as "SOP's" or a "must" , so I just wanted him to provide an FCOM reference for the "COLOUR" call .

The Altitude colour call could be because a mode has been armed .

Should the speed colour be called when the approach phase is activated or when speed increases passing 10'000 climbing also ?

[Gryphon]

PF make a "request" on the FCU/MCDU/Autothrust, then s/he has to monitor the "demand" on the PDF/ND and finally check the "response" on the basic instruments.

Announce your intentions about the "request" is not mandatory unless is a company SOP. You must call out any change on the FMA to inform the other pilot about the "demand" to the autoflight system (AP/FD). FMA announcements are/aren't acknowledged according to the company SOP,s. This does not alleviate PM from checking his FMA and challenging an incorrect call or an inconsistency.

And finally the most important:

FCTM

Fly "Fly" indicates that: ‐ The Pilot Flying (PF) must concentrate on "flying the aircraft" to monitor and control the pitch attitude, bank angle, airspeed, thrust, sideslip, heading, etc., in order to achieve and maintain the desired targets, vertical flight path, and lateral flight path. ‐ The Pilot Monitoring (PM) must assist the PF and must actively monitor flight parameters, and call out any excessive deviation

[vilas]

Stone_cold
I am reproducing airbus standardisation document on activation of approach from last two years. where you call the colour.

CROSS-CHECKS DURING APPROACH PHASE ACTIVATION

Any change having an impact on flight path or aircraft energy must be cross-checked.

By the way:

• Actions on FCU

• And some actions on MCDUs/MFDs (i.e. "DIRECT TO")

Must be cross-checked.

The approach phase activation confirmation is a "system" confirmation only.

The activation of the approach phase responds to a special request from the PF (or PF personal action) to start with the aircraft deceleration. The phase of flight will change that could be done either automatically by overflying the deceleration "D" point (in this case no request but a positive confirmation of Situation Awareness by both pilots) or manually.

Crew must be aware of the aircraft energy situation change. Communication is essential in the cockpit, although no typical standard call out exists.

In this case, the PF call could be:
PF………………………. "Activate approach phase"
PNF …………………… "Activating approach phase"

Then PNF states….. "Approach phase is activated"

PF checks speed on PFD... "Speed XXX magenta"


To sum up, the action on the MCDU "confirm" key itself does not need to be confirmed by the other pilot because it is a "system" confirmation but the process leading to the deceleration needs to be clearly identified and monitored.


Standardization directives for "Approach phase activation"

[Stone_cold]

Not in any airbus document I know . AFM ,FCOM, FTCM . Is it on Airbus World ?? Where ??

Also are you being selective , you never mentioned in your standardization document if a call is required at 10,000 ft climbing when the speed changes . You will note that in both cases ,(accelerating at 10k and activating the App phase ( the colour has not necessarily changed ) . Your " document " seems to suggest possible calls i.e. ( could be ) , not MUST !

Just like your TOGA for EFATO (Maybe you remember your arrogant reply to Gryphon's post on this ) and Smoke "will" be in the cabin if Batt OFF before APU flap closed . You must be a beacon of knowledge for those you instruct . ( It is done this way because I say so ) .

Maybe you have a document from airbus for who you instruct for , this doesn't make it a standard call for ALL operator's !!

"Must" be cross-checked doesn't mean constant verbal diarrhea and inventing calls and note: some operator's don't even call the FMA .

Give the source of this document you claim exists , I have a lot of "documents" which I can 'reproduce' also . I asked for an actual reference that anyone can source , not from your numerous Airbus conferences .

As Gryph said here , most operator's(PF)action the FCU silently and just read the "result" on the FMA . Been on this bird for over 10 years and never called a speed colour and never will .

I expect more because you will have the last say as in the majority of your posts .

[vilas]

Hey Stone_cold
Just relax. This is a discussion forum. The OP wants to know the various practices. I am fully aware many airlines have their own procedures. I have been pulling my hair dealing with at least eight different airlines. I have stated once before that one must be loyal to his pay cheque. There is simply no other option. Just as you can say what you do, I pasted what airbus teaches in Toulouse presently that too because you asked. You may not be interested but many others are. As members express their appreciation through emails. If we are incommunicable then we shouldn't. Period.

[mcdude]

Vilas - the document you posted is incorrect. Standard callouts and tasksharing for activating the approach phase are published in FCOM and QRH.

[vilas]

mcdude
I have not posted but copy pasted it. It's not my procedure and if airbus is wrong I cannot help it. May be you can write to them. If you went to Toulouse that's what they will teach you. It is for information only. You will do what your company tells you anyway.

[Microburst2002]

Yeah!

I hate when I say "activate approach phase"
and the other presses and says "Confirm?"

Damn, I just told you! Freaking activate it

Are u sure?

Yes!

Really, sure?

Yes!

Ok… confirm?

Aaaaargh!

[mcdude]

Vilas the document you pasted/posted is full of inaccuracies including the ones I have already pointed out. When the approach phase is activated how can you say "Speed XXX magenta"? This makes no sense. In relation to the approach phase the only magenta speed on the PFD would be target Vapp which is only displayed when final landing configuration is reached.

[vilas]

mcdude
I don't know how many times you have activated approach and yet you failed to notice what happens. When you activate approach the speed target Vapp appears in magenta at the bottom of the speed tape and that is what you are supposed to check. Similarly when you reach acceleration altitude your speed target becomes 250KTS and is shown in magenta on top of the speed tape. Obviously when you reach the target it won't be shown there any more. Spend some time understanding the system before ridiculing the manufacturer's recommendation. And what else is included in your full of inaccuracies?

[Black Pudding]

Speaking to an ground engineer once. He told me "Anyone who says they are an expert regarding Airbus, unless they work for Airbus, be very wary of them as Airbus have the ability to insert a floppy disc and change software"

The only people who know Airbus inside out are those that build them.

[CONF iture]

I don't know how many times you have activated approach and yet you failed to notice what happens. When you activate approach the speed target Vapp appears in magenta at the bottom of the speed tape and that is what you are supposed to check.
It won't necessarily appear as it is not necessarily what you're looking for by activating the approach phase.

Calling the color of the altitude target is good procedure but calling the color of the speed is too much especially when "managed speed" and "selected speed" are the appropriate calls.

[vilas]

Instead of repeating activate approach checking at the bottom of speed tape v app and confirming approach activated is the new change in AB SOP and it will always appear in managed speed. Managed or select speed are sure appropriate calls but as long as you do so after checking appropriate colour because otherwise it has'n happened.

[CONF iture]

Instead of repeating activate approach checking at the bottom of speed tape v app and confirming approach activated is the new change in AB SOP and it will always appear in managed speed. Managed or select speed are sure appropriate calls but as long as you do so after checking appropriate colour because otherwise it has'n happened.
Same reply - Vapp in magenta won't necessarily appear as it is not necessarily what you're looking for by activating the approach phase.
The approach phase can be active, whatever the color on the speed tape.

[Cak]

@ vilas
If you activate approach it has happend. It doesn't depend on if you have checked it or not. And the speed surely doesn't appear as magenta every time after activation.

A32F can be flown also in selected modes, believe it or not

Airbus may have some recomendations for instructors but as long as it hasn't been implemented in FCOM, it doesn't exist. FCOM is governing document for all if the company doesn't have own SOP. FCOM provides procedures that we all have to follow (except maybe instructors from Airbus)

[Microburst2002]

Some pilots say

"speed is selected, activate approach phase"

This is a habit to avoid reducing speed before they wish, but to activate the approach phase already so you don't have surprises later.

I always activate it early, except in the rare case when I will fly the whole procedure and there are speed constraints.

[vilas]

Hi all
I think things are getting mixed up and getting unnecessarily personal. The original question was hey guys how you go about this? So all of you gave your company procedures and opinions and I gave the airbus procedure. I was asked to produce some document and I copy pasted. It has been called erroneous, ridiculed, defied and not mandatory etc. Just as your procedures do not have any mandate outside your company aircraft the airbus procedure also is not compulsory unless operator accepts it. I presently train crew of five airlines. Do I teach them this procedure? No. Because their SOP doesn't have this procedure. We only discuss on PP nobody changes his procedures. The second part is about system knowledge. Whenever you activate approach FMGC enters approach phase and Vapp will appear below as the new target. The only exception is if you are in select speed. Those who say it does not appear every time are wrong. You can refer to FCOM. Similarly when SRS changes to CLB after T/O speed target appears in magenta on top of speed tape. If you don't think so check next time you fly. About checking speed colour, I have experienced when speed is pulled or pushed some time it doesn't happen and needs to be done again. How would you confirm this? Whether you say speed managed or magenta is not important but checking the change of colour to confirm is.
CONF iture and Cak if PNF forgets to press second time how do you know it is activated? and any airbus can be flown in selected modes what is so unbelievable about it?

[Stone_cold]

Vilas , the problem is that you didn't give Airbus procedure , at least not till challenged . Most others did specify that "their company ...."

Sure. One doesn't read FCU but PFD changes on FMA, HDG, Altitude, speed selected or managed by change of colour needs to be called. .

My issue is you continuously , whether intentionally or not , post strongly worded statements ( need , must etc. ) . No problem with discussing , but when you say (need , must) without qualifying your statement as "Standard Airbus" as opposed to FCOM/FCTM procedures practiced by many operators , then expect the statements to be challenged because you are not stating an option .You are stating it IS so !

BTW ,the document posted still does stand up to scrutiny . Whether it is that you cannot or choose not to post it( not copy/paste), or give a reference , with an Airbus logo , then I am afraid that it cannot validate your argument that it is even an Airbus procedure .

[Amadis of Gaul]

Not too many things around here stand up to scrutiny.

[vilas]

Stone_cold
Well I think we have made some progress. You should distinguish between what I think and what I state from the manufacturer. The point is the choice of accepting or rejecting always remains with you. The topic at hand is not what I think but stated by airbus in airbus supply Flight training standardisation bulletin Dec2013. I am unable to attach it so I copy pasted relevant portion. It won't help even if I could attaché because you are still bound by your company procedures.You stated you also have many things which you can post please go ahead I would welcome that. Idea is to enhance our knowledge and awareness about why and how we do things. I raised a few points in my post I would like to have your views on that. I would enjoy a professional discussion

[Cak]

vilas
Whether you press it for the second time or not, you cannot check it on PFD if you are flying with selected speed
And on all airbuses with FMS 1, there is no option to confirm activation anyway

I totally agree with you that the color and target are changing when you switch between managed or selected and that it should be checked when you make selection on FCU

My point is that most of instructors have never been in Airbus and have never been trained there so they don't have access to that document you have mentioned. Also for most of us FCOM and FCTM are the only documents from which we can learn whether you are just begining or you are an experienced guy. And in neither of them is written that you have to announce the color of the speed target. It only says that everything should be crosschecked but it doesn't explain how exactly. And anyway it's useless if you activate while flying selected speed

[vilas]

Cak
That exactly my point that it is useless to activate in select speed and in managed speed Vapp will always appear every time. FCOM will confirm it. I know every one does not have access to airbussupply that does not mean it is incorrect. We are exchanging information. By all means why and how can be discussed but at least be correct in what you are saying.

[CONF iture]

Those who say it does not appear every time are wrong.
They're not wrong at all.
How can you still state so after you've finally acknowledged the exception under selected speed ... ?

CONF iture and Cak if PNF forgets to press second time how do you know it is activated?
One way to be sure, if willing to, is to check which PERF page is actually active on MCDU.
But hitting managed speed later in the approach will tell the story, and a chance to still activate the approach phase if missed earlier.

That exactly my point that it is useless to activate in select speed
That is an uninformed comment.
If I understand it correctly, you are strictly a simulator instructor with no experience of real flying, at least on the Airbus ... ?

[Cak]

vilas
You get me wrong. I don't think at all it's useless to activate when flying selected. I only said that it's useless to check the activation on PFD if the speed is selected, because you cannot check it in that case.

I personally use selected speed in most of the time. Computer is a computer and it still cannot think like a human being. For computer every airport is the same, it just follows database. If you often fly to some airports which use vectoring, computer just cannot cope with that because it cannot predict vectors. And man can expect what the vectors will be and arrange his approach accordingly.

If I am not speed restricted, I can play with the speed and make whole or most of descent and whole approach on idle thrust. During approach if you need little bit higher rate, you can add some speed and if you need to reduce the rate, you just decrease the speed. With managed speed, you will be most of the time in speed mode and accordigly the fuel burn will be higher than on idle. If you save 50 or 100kg per approach, multiply it by every flight you make throughout the year and you will save big money for your company. The bad thing is that only few companies award you for this :)
Computer is just not good enough yet to fly descent and approach on idle thrust

[vilas]

CONF iture
There are quiet a few things that you don't understand correctly and I am not an airbus pilot is just another one of them. I have flown not one but three airbuses. So you won't get anything out of that.
Select speed the target is on FCU. But normally when in managed one glance at bottom of speed tape you can confirm app. activation. However if you like a longer way or that's the way your company does it I have no problem with it. That does not make it compulsory for others.
Cak, the issue at hand is only approach activation and confirmation so I am not going to comment on the descent and conduct of the approach. Some would activate first, confirm and then use select speed till required. There is another document on effective use of FMS. where you can create altitude constraints for better control of managed descent and approach. But I am not entering into it.

[Bula]

Villas,

As always you get the technical information but miss the point completely. It's not you, its just cultural. To say "Airbus said in 2013" is cool and congrats for an awesome memory. However to view it in isolation is ill informed.

What you are stating, and even the bulletin at the end of the day is TECHNIQUE. Anything outside of FCOM is technique or company SOP.

Looking for the magenta speed target on the tape is technique. Personally I use the PROG title to confirm FMGC flight phase.

Selecting speed on final is strategic. Too many times I have seen people manage speed only to have the target jump to 250 kts which is why I wouldn't endorse your said technique. Besides, it's so 2013.

What's that old saying.. " procedures are for the ashes range of fools and the guidance of wise men". If we were to consider the concepts of rule, knowledge and skill based decision making and error management you will see it is truly a double edged sword.

As long as the guy next to me keeps me in the loop I don't really care what he says. Some would says that's unprofessional... I just think there are more important concepts and ideas to worry about flying a jet.

[CONF iture]

There are quiet a few things that you don't understand correctly
I think I can understand now that your job brings you in a virtual world, but you have no concept on what is it to operate in the real world out there.

[vilas]

Bula
Call it technique or what you like. I just stated airbus brought the change in 2013 and it stays as far as they are concerned. Take it or leave it. About the speed jumping, as I said before, if you activate and then fly select it will not happen. Now about your adage, I will rephrase it " SOP s are for the guidance of the wise and compliance by idiots". sounds very chic and smart. If you go through the accident data base you will realise they are quite a few times famous last words. Only birds fly by instincts Humans have no instincts in the air and you abandon SOPs to your own peril. Some of them are actually written in blood. They are surely revised but not by fits and starts.

[vilas]

CONF iture
I thought I made it clear what my real life consisted of it also includes B747. In any case I am not the topic of discussion. If you have nothing more to add we can move on.

[CONF iture]

If you have nothing more to add we can move on.
Then you would need first to listen to guys with experience and understand how your comments as "it is useless to activate in select speed" are ill informed.

[MD83FO]

my question stems from check pilots imposing the calling out of FCU knob handling by PF, with AP ON,
to me this is incorrect, and I believe it is a miss interpretation of the SOP standard callouts (Actions Commanded by PF ).
I being english conversant, readily understand the word command as being an order given to the PM, and not a self performed action,
but i believe these check pilots new to the airbus, take it to be a "command" to the auto flight system.
I am trying to bring this issue to the training department but I can find another tool to make them understand that you don't say anything about the FCU, but rather announce the chance in the FMA.
I hope some one can help me with that.
take care.

[BBH]

MD83
As a former SFI A320 at AIRBUS TRAINING CENTER TOULOUSE we used to request PF call out at every action on FCU when A/P is ON just to keep PNF/PM in the loop .


We had an exemple:


Southern arrival at LFLL(LYON) if you are clear for approach very early and then set Altitude 3000 if you PULL ALT knob you will descend too early and EGPWS warning will be triggered when reaching 3000ft. If you PUSH (manage ALT)you will have an ALT CSTR and your FCU at 3000 will give a magenta 7000 (or higher)on PFD and the aircraft will follow step by step the vertical path required by procedure (don't forget to check ALT CSTR in FMGC)

[Goldenrivett]

we used to request PF call out at every action on FCU when A/P is ON just to keep PNF/PM
Probably initially a good teaching method to trap errors early (Push to give control to the computer etc.)

On the line, the calls of "Pull Standard" or "Push QNH" for the setting of the Altimeter became useless because about 50% were in the wrong direction. So we now simply say "Set Standard" etc.

Similarly, whether you push or pull the ALT knob in the correct direction is determined by whether you have OP DES or DES on the FMA with ALT Magenta showing.

[Togue]

MD83FO,


I am pretty sure you know where to find the info in the FCOM but this is my two cents.

FCOM PRO-NOR-SOP-90 P 1/12 18 MAR 15
Actions commanded by PF


GENERAL
The following commands do not necessarily initiate a guidance mode change, eg: selected to managed/managed to selected. The intent is to ensure clear, consistent, standard communication between crewmembers.
All actions performed on the FCU and the MCDU must be checked on the PFD and ND ( eg.:"FL350 blue","FL 200 magenta") Ensure that the correct FCU knob is used, then verify indications on the PFD/ND.


FCOM PRO-NOR-SOP-90 P 3/12 18 MAR 15
FMA
The PF should call out any FMA change, unless specified differently (eg.CAT II & III task sharing).
Therefore the PF should announce:
- All armed modes with the associated color (e.g. blue, magenta):"G/S blue","LOC blue".
- All active modes without the associated color (e.g. green, white):"NAV","ALT".
The PM should check and respond, "CHECKED" to all FMA changes called out by the PF.

[vilas]

MD
By now it should be clear to you that you cannot learn from PP anything other than how other's do their thing. You may quote Airbus technique, SOP, any logic but nobody is really interested. Some critisize even without understandin the subject. You are correct you do announce changes to Flight modes (select/managed) and FMA and only from the PFD because unless you see it there it hasn't happened but still you will have to follow your airline SOP.

[Greek God]

Never really understood AB logic when it comes to App Mode.
Magenta = managed in all phases except App.
Anyone from AB have any idea why when App is actioned the magenta speed command doesn't overlay GD when clean, F when config 1/2 and then go to Vapp at F3(if selected) or F4
Or would that be too logical?
Just curious!
We only call any boxed items on the FMA any changes occuring as a consequence of MCDU management constraints (alt,FL or spd) are not required to be called (personally I do mention it as I consider it good airmanship- oops am I still allowed to use that word?)

[Boyington]

Vilas,
The calls regarding activation of Approach phase is

PF "Activate Approach phase "
PM "Approach phrase activated"

There is nothing like "Activating Approach phase"

And to all, let us please keep this forum civil. No personal attacks on anyone please.

[Boyington]

Vilas,
The calls regarding activation of Approach phase is

PF "Activate Approach phase "
PM "Approach phrase activated"

There is nothing like "Activating Approach phase"

And to all, let us please keep this forum civil. No personal attacks on anyone please.

[MD83FO]

Hi Vilas, my 10 airplane new company prides it self in being a strict follower of airbus untouched SOP, but once in a while some instructor introduces "recommended practices", one being the calling out of FCU knobs, "pull speed 250, pull heading 180" how can i make them understand that these are commands to the PM while the autopilot is off, and not PF AP ON.
They take "commands" to be to the autopilot not to the PM.

[Cak]

FCTM OP-030 P 3/16 (Operational philosophy AP/FD/A/THR)

inside blue square, one of the things says:
"FCU Inputs must be announced"

so, there should be no misinterpratations

[Togue]

MD83F,


Cak provided the reference you are looking for. It states that FCU inputs are performed by the PM (upon PF request) when the AP is OFF and by the PF when the AP is ON.


Cak,


The FCU inputs must be announce by the PF using the PFD/FMA target and mode.

[Cak]

That's exactly what FCTM says :)

[Uplinker]

I got bored with the fighting, and jumped to the end of the thread, so I might have missed this being mentioned:

In the London TMA and on initial approach we are often under radar vectors and in selected speed at about the time when we activate the approach. In fact some of our trainers advise us to activate the approach soon after going to selected speed - so we don't forget - and this can be 50 miles out for example.

[vilas]

Activation of approach is passing the speed control to automation. During vectors if speed restriction is imposed you can activate and fly select speed. No problem. The thread as usual got derailed.

[capt. solipsist]

MD83FO

Make them aware, that we are NOT SUPPOSED TO CALL OUT FCU ACTIONS.

We are supposed to call out all mode changes (via the FMA) and parameter changes. We are to locate the proper button/knob on the FCU and perform the necessary action with reference to the PFD.

That is why, with the AP OFF, the PF orders the action and the PNF performs it - AND THEN THE PNF ANNOUNCES THE FMA CHANGE because that's what he's looking at. PF merely responds with CHECK.

Ex. (AP OFF):
PF: Set HDG 350
PNF: HDG 350 Set
PF: Check

Rule is, whoever manipulates the FCU makes the announcement, other guy confirms it.

In your example, the pilot shall locate the button, pull it and announces what he sees in the PFD: "Speed selected (because it is BLUE), 250kts" (nowhere in the PFD can he find the word PULL).

[MD83FO]

Hello I appreciate all your comments, the key is FCU INPUTS MUST BE ANNOUNCED, but on the PFD/FMA!
but it is the PF who acknowledges the FMA change, PNF says checked.

[vilas]

Greek God
When you activate approach the final target speed i.e. Vapp is displayed in magenta(if managed). It is much the same when SRS changes to CLB/OPCLB the target speed 250 in magenta is displayed. Perhaps since there is no reason to hold on to flaps the speed keeps increasing and you keep retracting and when clean 250 will be maintained. On approach it is the other way round but the speeds are held at S or F to give you option of holding on to it.