skydemon

[KidInk]

Hey everyone,

Got my ppl 2 weeks ago and since have been flying here there and everywhere. I've seen a lot of people at my club using skydemon, does it make the experience better and is it worth the money?

[Johnm]

Yes and Yes

[Flyingmac]

Yes. Selling your Whizwheel will help towards the cost.:O

[Baikonour]

By all means use it for planning (Wx,nav,notam) but don't take it with you in the cockpit. There should be no need for it and it'd be a shame to get reliant on the magenta line too early...


B.

[Flyingmac]

A rose by any other name. Luddite - Luddite nedir? Luddite ne demek? (http://nedir.dictionarist.com/Luddite)


After 30 odd years of flying by chart, SkyDemon is now my primary means of navigation.
I still carry a route marked chart, but can't think of a single reason for leaving the GPS on the ground.

[Steevo25]

I have a very differing opinion of not taking it in the cockpit with you. I agree that it should not be your only source of navigation but I also think you should use all viable means possible to stay safe in the air and know exactly where you are.


I plan using Skydemon and then print it to a plog. I take Skydemon and chart and plog with me and match up the chart against Skydemon on a regular basis so I always know where I am even if Skydemon were to fail.


Why risk busting airspace or getting lost just so you can claim to be an expert with just charts.


Skydemon is an excellent navigation aid and well worth the money.

[Rabbs]

Anything that can help me from being "uncertain of my position" to me is well worth it.

I use Sky Demon for the planning on my PC (easy to drag and drop) helps with ensuring you dont cross anything you shouldnt cross (NOTAMs are visible on a map within the application and also the wind etc). I then upload the route to the cloud and sync to my Android phone.

Print the frequencies and PLOG and route all out of Skydemon -

I also plot the route on the map and use the map to navigate, cross referencing with Skydemon. Where Skydemon ca come into its own is if you are tracking close to any restricted airspace it can confirm that you are not drifting off track.

Be warned there will be times where your phone reboots, GPS signal mysteriously dissapears or the suns so bright you cant see the screen. So for VFR it makes sense to me to use an app. I've used various apps and have settled with Skydemon as the best supported and easiest to use (I dont work for them nor have shares ;)

On IPAD and Android it works perfectly and has been well developed in the last year or so. I think you can use it free at least for a while so you should try it out on your phone/tablet.

[Baikonour]

There is an interesting discussion to be had regarding the use of various cockpit apps (and Skydemon I not the only one...) and everyone will have their opinion and use it in different ways. Pre-flight planning, printing a plog with frequencies etc is all good.

However, if the intention of to reduce busts, the stats which are often quoted seen to show that those with gps have more airspace busts than those who don't...

I honestly think that a relatively fresh PPL is better off building a good situational awareness and general navigation skills before succumbing to the lure of the magenta line.


B

[Johnm]

I fly IFR and VFR and no longer use paper except for writing down clearances and ATIS and times.

IFR certified GPS on the panel and Skydemon do everything I need. IFR flight in GA is basically impossible without GPS.

Skydemon even provides geo-referenced approach plates and airfield diagrams.

Please do take it into the air, but also make sure you use it to maintain special awareness so you always know where you are and where you are going next and rough headings.

BTW I haven't owned a whizz wheel in years and no longer remember how to use one!

[londonblue]

I have also recently subscribed to SkyDemon.

From a planning point of view I love it. It makes the whole process so much easier and so much less hassle. That said, I am glad that I have been taught how to use a wizz wheel etc and do everything manually just in case.

From a navigation perspective I think it will be great. If it's any where near as good as my old 296 (I suspect it will be better) then I can't wait to make use of it. Again, I will always mark up my chart and have it to hand just in case.

I also think SkyDemon can be extended to make it even more useful. For example, it could be extended to calculate take off and landing distances. It already has the plane's details and the weather. All it needs are the runway details...

One question I have for any users out there though is do you carry your chart, or print off the chart from SkyDemon? Is printing the chart sufficient?

[The_Pink_Panther]

KidInk,

Lots of balanced comments about not loosing your map and line capability, but with regard to using Skydemon, I'd suggest looking at Runway HD from Airbox. They use the CAA chart, so the map you'll see on the screen is identical to the one you've been learning to fly with.

TPP

[SpannerInTheWerks]

I honestly think that a relatively fresh PPL is better off building a good situational awareness and general navigation skills before succumbing to the lure of the magenta line.

I wonder why the airlines don't use that principle with newly qualified airline pilots on their first trips overseas ... ???

Nothing like navigating from VOR to VOR, waypoint to waypoint - and then finishing off with a raw data NDB/DME approach to minima in IMC!!!

Nar ... the 'big boys' follow the magenta line, sit and chat in the cruise and are still kn*****ed at the end of the day.

It's not just about navigational skills.

Although I agree a paper plog and line on the chart are still a must. Something you don't appreciate until the electrics fail.

:)

[Johnm]

They use the CAA chart, so the map you'll see on the screen is identical to the one you've been learning to fly with.


Not a lot of use if he's off over the channel, I'd recommend Skydemon with Skydemon 2 presentation.

[Johnm]

Although I agree a paper plog and line on the chart are still a must.

I abandoned that fairly early on in favour of a Garmin pilot 3! The world's improved beyond belief since then and Skydemon on ipad will provide services from battery for any normal PPL flight of 2 to 3 hours or so.

[Cows getting bigger]

I'm probably going to get shot down here, but I think Runway HD is far better than SkyDemon.

That said, I don't disagree with any of the advice above - an integrated GA iThingy cockpit tool is extremely useful as long as it isn't used to the detriment of more fundamental things, like lookout. :)

[Flyingmac]

Use a Skydemon chart. Track up. Then what you see on the screen will match what you see out of the windows. It will also be much less cluttered than a digitised CAA chart.


I know there are those who cling to the old North up, paper chart type set-up. I just don't know why.:sad:

[londonblue]

Use a Skydemon chart. Track up. Then what you see on the screen will match what you see out of the windows. It will also be much less cluttered than a digitised CAA chart.

You can also take off any layers you don't need, making the map even less cluttered.

Track up is the way to go I think, especially if you want to use a tablet in portrait!

[1.3VStall]

CGB,

I'm with you! I use Runway HD, which I prefer to Skydemon that I have used in the past.

[Cusco]

I've used SkyDemon for a couple of years now and wouldn't be without it.

Combined with a panel mounted GPS and sky demons own IFR charting it's the D's Bs, for VFR and IFR flight.

There's stacks of additional stuff like GAR filing for your first Channel hop., weather updates, notams etc.

I use it on an iPad which has given problems with overheating so given my time again I'd probably use it on an iPad mini, connected to a fag lighter socket.

Mind you I still carry VFR and IFR paper charts: I'm still in the 20th Century.

Have SD also in Android on a Nexus but it's so clunky I don't use it.

Take advantage of the SD 30 day free trial: you'll be impressed and never look back.

Their customer service is first rate: they added my airstrip to their permanent database within 36 hours of my asking.

Good luck

Cusco (no connection with SD)

[piperboy84]

Sky demon on Ipad 2 mounted on a Ram mount up where the sun visor is on a car.

1. Fire up the plane
2. Click "Go Flying"
3. Take off and never need look at the VOR, ADF, charts or some old POS IFR gps.

Easy Peazy

[ericferret]

We are looking at the Sky Demon option probably with a mini ipad. Not being of the computer genseration we are concerned about buying the wrong ipad and finding it not compatible or with insufficient capacity. A basic question but if anybody could point us towards a correctly spec'd ipad so we can buy the right thing first time we would be grateful.

Thanks Chris

[cessnapete]

My aircraft Group have found the I Pad mini II 16GB without phone card, just fine for aircraft use. (SkyDemon)
If you are going to use it for home use etc you may want more capacity for photos movies etc.
We use an external GPS receiver in the windscreen and have never had any signal problems. For longer flights a USB plug in the cigarette lighter socket takes care of in flight charging, but flights of 2/3 hours ok with fully charged device.
I would not dream of flying around our local area, SE around the London control area, without it for accurate navigation and situational awareness, dispite what the CAA map and stopwatch brigade might say!

[Johnm]

Assuming you don't want to use it for much else, a basic mini-ipad should be fine, but I'd go for the middle one (small middle and large is basically 16 32 or 64 gigabyte storage). The only other decision is whether you go for internal GPS or connecting to an external device via blue tooth. If you go for self contained then you can add a SIM card should wish to and use 4G, when away from Wi-Fi, for internet connection.

I have a middle size with SIM card and it's very convenient both on the ground and in the air.

[londonblue]

We are looking at the Sky Demon option probably with a mini ipad. Not being of the computer genseration we are concerned about buying the wrong ipad and finding it not compatible or with insufficient capacity. A basic question but if anybody could point us towards a correctly spec'd ipad so we can buy the right thing first time we would be grateful.

Thanks Chris

Of course everyone advocating an iPad is forgetting there are plenty of alternatives. For example, I bought a 2nd hand Samsung Galaxy Tab 4 (with 8" screen) for about £80. (It was on eBay at £90, I offered £75, we settled at £80.)

The benefit of the Samsung is twofold:

Firstly they ALL have built in GPS so there's no messing around with external devices or SIMs. Secondly they all have micro SD slots so that you can expand the memory to your heart's content. You don't have to buy one with a bigger memory than you'll ever need "just in case".

[Pirke]

I love skydemon, it's a great navigational aid in the cockpit. My tablet is 8.4" and is (to me) an ideal size: not too big for a small cockpit, and big enough so you can read the map.

Still, I always carry backups: my 5" phone (also with skydemon), some built in gps device, printed charts and plog from skydemon, and an old (2 years) DFS chart. That's 4 backups.... should be enough :)

[ericferret]

When I made enquiries about running Sydemon on a cheaper tablet, i.e. not Ipad, I was told performance is not always consistent, and deteriorates over time, and there is more crashing and lagging compared to the iPad. Any views on this?

[Piper.Classique]

I've never had any problems on my Samsung galaxy tablet, or my xperia phone. The paper map is accessible in flight, but I have never used it when running sky demon.

[Rabbs]

Couple of things to be aware with IPAD

1. if you dont have the cellular IPAD you dont get GPS (you can buy one to plug in or you can share your Iphones GPS but its a little bit of a faff): Apple - iPad*mini*2 - Technical Specifications (http://www.apple.com/ipad-mini-2/specs/)



IPAD Standard WIFI

Wi‑Fi
Digital compass
iBeacon microlocation
IPAD Cellular

Wi‑Fi
Digital compass
Assisted GPS and GLONASS
Cellular
iBeacon microlocation

2. Beware of glare on the IPAD. The sceen is shiney and so prone to reflections even with the brightness turned up. You might want to borrow one before buying or ask someone at the club to ensure you can read it well in bright light.

3. Personally (and I'm sure others have different opinions) I found having a map/ipad and noteboard on my lap was one thing too much and opted for a Samsung phone (which has a GPS) stuck on a window mount (You can get yolk mounts and kneeboard straps but again didnt find them working that well).

Hope that helps!

[dirkdj]

I have Skydemon on a Nexus7 with built-in GPS. It works but an external GNS2000 provides much more reliable GPS signal. The 7" tablet is ideal cockpit size.

I also have a Lenovo Yoga2 tablet in 10" size, you can get it in 8" as well; It has an outstanding battery capacity, I see 40 hours+ after a charge. It is very reliable and can be had for less than 200€. Try a big online seller and look for 'refurbished items'. The internal GPS is more performant than the Nexus7 one. It has excellent front audio speakers as well.

It used to be that the Android version of Skydemon was lagging in features compared to the iOS version, but this is no longer relevant.

[ChickenHouse]

@KidInk: My best guess is you will definitely be sucked into the magenta line trap, no matter what you do. Yes, SkyDemon is a nice cockpit addition, but I would advice to use it for planning only at first place and collect some hours flying after PPL without that brain extension. So, just in case you get into trouble you have a firm memory of what to do without an iPad! If you passed this, then apps like SkyDemon will be a great tool in cockpit, as long as you use it the right way.

[dirkdj]

There is nothing to prevent you from using the SD for planning, and then throwing it on the back seat (while running in navigation mode) so you have a trace of what you did right and wrong while doing WW2 style navigation. I would rather have you looking for a few seconds at the magenta line, establish a good heading with proper wind correction, and then spend the rest of the time (say 95+%) looking for traffic.
SD must be seen as an additional layer of protection against airspace bust, CFIT etc, but it should not interfere with your primary duty of traffic avoidance.

[TheOddOne]

When I made enquiries about running Sydemon on a cheaper tablet, i.e. not Ipad, I was told performance is not always consistent, and deteriorates over time, and there is more crashing and lagging compared to the iPad. Any views on this?

Yes. Must have been an Apple salesperson. I run SD on a 2-year old Samsung Tab 3, doesn't miss a beat, no glare, bright enough in a Cessna 172, no issues so far.

TOO

[ChickenHouse]

SkyDemon is quite well programmed and there is a reason they ported it to different platforms, be it Android or iOS, because they all have a certain level of reliability today. But, there are quality differences and you can gather your relevant information from SkyDemons discussion forum. One thing you will notice is the difference in complaints for different platforms, i.e. there is a tendency that while iOS user appear to keep their operating system quite updated Androids tend to not update their tablet frequently. Many Apple questions are related to new versions of the OS, while Android questions tend to be upon incompatibilities with old system software after SD updates. But, all these discussions are now quite down in numbers compared to the large number of installations.

[Bobby Hart]

Rob from SkyDemon here,

I have personally made comments about the deterioration of android devices over time (so it may be me that ericferret is remembering), specifically when the Nexus7 first came out and we were seeing some shocking variations in performance between ostensibly identical devices. This problem is much less of an issue nowadays since non-iPad tablet makers have had to step up their game in order to compete with Apple.

This, coupled with the fact that we have been relentlessly working on android stability within the app, has started to make some android set-ups quite compelling. In fact, we were astonished at the performance we were able to get out of a Tesco Hudl when we got our hands on one recently; while it isn't as smooth/stable a ride as an iPad, the low hardware cost (<£100) makes it a serious consideration - plus, there's not as much remorse when upgrading to the newer model in following years...

[Scoobster]

I flew over to Cambridge last week Tuesday and was carrying my "first passenger". I planned the flight manually using the CRP-5, Wind Corrected and noted it all down on a Pooleys VFR PLOG.

As a precaution I also took out a sub to SkyDemon to run on my Android Phone - only to find that you are able to "plan and print the PLOG" also and use this for your flying. The only time I needed to use SkyDemon was to confirm I was actually overhead Chedburg turning en route to Cambridge.

Having it on my lap gave me the piece of mind that should I not know where I am I can always look at the Sky Demon.

I had my half mil chart with track over the Ground with half way points and drift lines marked.. One thing I noticed when comparing both SD PLOG and my Manual PLOG was that in my Manual planning - I didn't "interpolate" the Wind at 2000ft for each leg according to Lat/Long - and used the 2000ft wind at my home airfield for the whole journey.

I found that the headings from SkyDemon/Wind was different to my "Manual Calculations".. only by +/- 1 to +/- 3 degrees. I still got to Cambridge flying my manual PLOG and then experienced "flying only GPS" for the journey back to base. Again I noticed how my much mental capacity was released to fly the plane - when doing things by GPS only.

However, I would always like to know where I am visually also - by reference to towns/rivers/railways etc.

How "accurate" is the PLOG on SD and if using such navigational tools, should one also do everything manually or just print off the PLOG from SkyDemon?

I am just thinking time wise - I could have saved myself the planning time but of course I am trying to do everything the way I was taught manually. Though the arguments by some instructors are also - we teach you to fly manually but wouldn't blame you if you were to fly via using a GPS later due to controlled airspace restrictions.

Also - can I review my route that I actually flew using SkyDemon if flying manually (some kind of trace)?

I am still getting to grips with making sure SkyDemon has the correct config for my aircraft because it seems to default to 3000ft when I was at 2100ft which I couldn't change..

Also I don't understand what the "Virtual Radar" is - better read the manual I suppose.

Ta!

Scoobster

[thing]

I know there are those who cling to the old North up, paper chart type set-up. I just don't know why.Different brains? I can't for the life of me follow track up, either on a map or on Skydemon, it has to be north up otherwise I may as well just switch it off. Don't know how people do it, you must be wired up differently to me. Having said that my flying buddy can't do it north up, it totally throws him. Mind you he's a bit weird.

Re carrying a paper map etc. I always carry a marked up map and paper plog. I find that marking the map up gets the route and any problem areas into my head, plus there's always the chance that the Iphone or whatever will go tits up as happened to me a few weeks ago. I was flying an Aerobat with a mate to go for a pub lunch somewhere. I had the iphone suckered to the side window. I had just taken off and at 995' precisely (I read it on the flight log later) the side window blew open and the iphone was sucked out of the a/c.

'Bugger' and other stronger expletives issued forth. Luckily I could see I was over open ground and the chances of it knobbling someone were pretty slim. So I grabbed the map and flew to where we were going and back the old fashioned way which was quite novel actually. Kind of put the dampers on the pub lunch though.

On returning to my home airfield I was talking about what happened when one of the guys asked me if I had 'find my iphone' switched on. I had, and in short order using the club computer I found the location in a field a few miles away, it was still transmitting. I took a screen shot of the sat location and printed it out, then worked out how close I could get in the car. I walked across a few fields and almost walked straight to it. There wasn't a scratch on it although the screen was blank. I had a new screen put on for £50 and it works perfectly. It had logged the flight and where you can see the virtual radar there's a vertical line where it dropped out of the a/c and max altitude, 995'!

I have since invested in a yoke mount for it. It's not going fly away again.