Heathrow ATC

[hiflyerz]

I have been flying into Heathrow for a good few years, and would like to compliment the controllers, across the board, of the most professional, wonderful job they do, and are doing:D:D
In fact, in my opinion, Heathrow ATC must be one of the top 5 in the world!
If I ever meet one of the Heathrow controllers in a pub.....the entire night is on me!:ok:
Keep it up!!

[Del Prado]

What's your local pub? :E:E:E

<Best not answer that>

[Sir George Cayley]

Remember me?

"Clear left, ground point 7"

Mines a pint.:ok:

SGC

[ferris]

A pilot shouting? Must be a new FO.

[Eau de Boeing]

Yes, Heathrow is my second favourite ATC unit in the world!!!!!

(Who's my favourite? Every other one :ok:)

Mine's a pint.........

[Cows getting bigger]

I suppose I would agree that Heathrow are pretty good. :) Subjectively, I think Dubai International are the best.

[TheFalcon]

Thank you 'Cows' - we all love compliments (and pints) :D

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

This subject has been covered before. Maybe it's time for ATC to say who the best and worst flyers are?

[zkdli]

Wouldn't matter HD, the worst ones don't read the ATC forum:E

[soaringhigh650]

Maybe it's time for ATC to say who the best and worst flyers are?

Nah. You'd have a heart attack by letting us VFR 'clockwork mice' into your jealously guarded Class A airspace from the ground up to FL195.

:} :E

[ShannonACC]

Agreed with you, LON ATCOs are always quite pleasant to deal with in general, be it aerdorome or ACC. As are you guys up in Scottish, don't get me wrong Rathlinn!

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Heathrow airspace is NOT Class A from ground up - gen up sonny; you're well out of date. Typical clockwork mouse pilot.

http://www.nats.aero/news/caa-approves-reclassification-london-ctr/

[soaringhigh650]

A good move in the right direction by NATS but up to 2500ft only.

There's still the other most significant chunk of airspace from 2500ft upwards that you've grabbed away from us.

And also the inner area from ground up.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Oh dear, how sad, never mind. It's very safe to fly over here.

[soaringhigh650]

Are you implying we are dangerous?

Look at the stats yourself. We, the clockwork mice in the USA, have 30x more flight hours flown than in the UK and definitely not 30x more accidents.

In fact it's only about 7x more. This means we are over four times safer per flight hour flown.

Never mind. Good to know you're retired.

[Miraculix]

How much more area there is over there, compared to the UK?
The airspace in England is hopelessly crowded, with constant holding going in and restrictions in climb going out. It would be almost impossible flying there with more traffic occupying the airspace, in particular traffic with a very different performance from turboprops and airliners.

[ZOOKER]

soaringlow,
Buy an atlas, look at the relative sizes of the U.K. and USA, and work it out for yourself.

[Gonzo]

Soaringhigh,

There must be some problem somewhere, I've still seen no sign of your ACP.

How long ago did you submit it again?

[soaringhigh650]

So we have 40x more landmass but 30x more flight hours. So 1.33x more landmass per flight hour. But we also have 4x less accidents per hour flown.

If we had 1.33x less landmass will we have the same if not greater number of accidents per hour flown as the UK? A 4x increase?! I very much doubt it!

Constant holding is an effect of runway availability and poor speed management. Once these problems are solved then holding should reduce and allow for continous climbs and descends.

But this is not GA's problem - In fact I should say that if there are no airplanes inside some airspace, then there is no reason to refuse others a VFR clearance: We don't have any Class A airspace below 18,000ft.

I've still seen no sign of your ACP. Don't worry! I am in touch with various people who are submitting them on the behalf of UK's 'clockwork mice'. I was kinda expecting you to throw them out the window anyway so why should you care?

[Tarq57]

The accident rates deduced in the figures above are largely irrelevant to the discussion, unless such accidents are ATC-related.

Midairs, ground collisions and similar.

[Gonzo]

SH,

Don't worry! I am in touch with various people who are submitting them on the behalf of UK's 'clockwork mice'. I was kinda expecting you to throw them out the window anyway so why should you care?

Yet again you apparently demonstrate that your knowledge of the UK's ATM/airspace regulatory environment is lacking. You do know it's the CAA who make the decision, don't you?

And yes, I do care. I, and the vast majority of my colleagues care about providing the best service to all airspace users within the bounds of UK procedures and regulatory expectations, which again are the responsibility of the CAA.

[ShyTorque]

I'm a very regular user of LHR airspace under VFR and SVFR and I say the controllers are excellent. Proficient pilots have no difficulty dealing with both them and the airspace.

Those who can't cope because of their own limitations tend to find it easier to blame other factors. As the forum rules say, don't feed the trolls....

[soaringhigh650]

And yes, I do care. I, and the vast majority of my colleagues care about providing the best service to all airspace users within the bounds of UK procedures and regulatory expectations Wow. That's really good to hear. Thanks! :ok:

I look forward to working with you when I fly over London, VFR on a great sunny day, at say 7,000-9,000 feet in future. I also look forward to crossing over Heathrow Airport, just as I do at other airports that are similar if not busier.

As the forum rules say, don't feed the trolls.... I am just trying to challenge anyone who think us 'clockwork mice' are dangerous or do nothing but interrupt airliners and therefore should be better kept out of airspace.

The accident rates deduced in the figures above are largely irrelevant to the discussion, unless such accidents are ATC-related.Only fraction of these are ATC related. Which means we remain considerably safer than the UK on a per flight hour basis.

[Gonzo]

SH, you're still demonstrating that you do not understand the UK environment you keep talking about.

And on that note, I'll take ShyTorque's advice.

[soaringhigh650]

I am a pilot. Not a regulatory or ATM expert.
Similarly I don't expect you to understand how I operate and fly my airplane.

I only make noise if I believe I am shut out unreasonably.

It's that simple.

[Tower Ranger]

So you think it's "reasonable" to potter across LHR or any busier airport you can find, good luck with that btw, at 7000ft VFR?

Surely nobody can be that blinkered? Unfortunately your frighteningly poor appreciation of the big picture clearly illustrates why you should be kept well away from high intensity commercial hubs.

LHR ATCO's don't worry, you're every bit as good as the DXB ones lol.

[soaringhigh650]

Unfortunately your frighteningly poor appreciation of the big picture clearly illustrates why you should be kept well away from high intensity commercial hubs. Just because you believe I have poor appreciation of the big picture is not sufficient basis to unreasonably and permanently deny access to airspace.

Shall I refuse to call up for clearance and merely blunder on through your airspace or purposely ignore your instructions just because I believe you don't know how to fly a plane?

So you think it's "reasonable" to potter across LHR or any busier airport you can find, good luck with that btw, at 7000ft VFR? Indeed. I will show you the airports where I do so over here and at various altitudes as well.

Not blinkered. It's reality. The controllers at the major airports here accommodate me with absolutely no problem. Even the AIRPORT allows me to land there for a reasonable fee.

Sounds like some controllers here need a trip abroad and see how we do it here.

[ShyTorque]

The rules do not allow VFR flight in Class A airspace. The controller has no discretion.

I suggest you either learn and understand the rules we are all obliged to abide by, or stay out of the airspace.

[soaringhigh650]

You fool. We've just gone full circle. Read the earlier posts in the thread before you bite.

[Brian 48nav]

Why has soaringhigh650 been allowed back onto PPRuNe?

I thought he had been expelled following his previous rant about being denied entry to airspace over London - which was untrue IIRC.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

I am a pilot. Not a regulatory or ATM expert.

Contradiction in terms - there isn't a pilot that isn't a regulatory or ATM 'expert'. :E

[N90-EWR]

Tower Ranger, I think you'd be flabbergasted if you ever got to see how we work countless VFR's at all altitudes right through the class bravo around our busiest terminal facilities. I don't doubt that Heathrow, or Dubai, or any of those other airports work a lot of traffic, but the controllers there work in a very sterile environment compared to us.

If you ever visit New York, let me know in a pm, and I'll try to set up a tour of the New York Tracon.

[kcockayne]

And, I think that he'd be equally flabbergasted by the amount of work done by the radar controllers at a UK airfield in Class G airspace, like Coventry, on a busy day !
I take my hat off to all of them at such airfields.

[Cows getting bigger]

I'm struggling to recollect any clockwork mouse vs. commercial airline collision over the UK, ever. I think there are other parts of the world where this has been a 'more frequent' occurrence. I'll happily forgo any particular right of passage I may desire in my RV against the thought of melding with a 100+ pax tube in Class D.

Once is too often.

[Miraculix]

N90-EWR
You might find that it's hard to have foreign nationals visit tracon. My steph brother worked DFW center and could not get me in, as I was a foreign national. OK I'm a mere ATPL pilot, not a controller, maybe it was because it was in 2003 and everyone was jumping at shadows?

[babotika]

The TC team is indeed incredible...

People who moan and compain have obviously not visited Swanwick and spent a few hours staring at the green mush which is their radars. Last time I plugged in I was 3 minutes behind on NW DEPs... And I consider myself somewhat of a regular!

It's the one (only) thing I miss about being based in the London TMA.

[2 sheds]

Similarly I don't expect you to understand how I operate and fly my airplane.

It's not that difficult, shirley?

2 s

[Gonzo]

Anyone familiar with busy US airports knows that you guys push a lot of traffic, including VFR. However, as I was trying to get through earlier, one cannot just compare a busy airport in the U.S. to a busy airport in, say, the UK.

There are significantly greater expectations put on us in terms of de-conflicting VFR and IFR traffic, fulfilling a duty of care towards all airspace users, as well as different restrictions put on how and when we can reduce separations between IFR and IFR.

I'm struggling to think of an analogy. I think it's like this: in the U.S., you can turn right on a red light at a junction. In the UK you cannot. This makes, all other things being equal, U.S. junctions more efficient than UK junctions. A U.S. driver visits the UK, sees this, and then starts having a go at the traffic policeman that is sitting near the junction for doing it wrong and doing it more slowly and less efficient than the U.S.

ATCOs all around the world usually do their best, but with very different rules and regulatory hurdles to overcome and abide by. Comparing them with crude measures such as number of aeroplanes per hour or whatever is not even half the story.

[hangten]

Gonzo - great analogy, eloquently put.

[ShyTorque]

You fool. We've just gone full circle. Read the earlier posts in the thread before you bite. I think you have, on a number of occasions, personally made it very obvious who is the foolish one around here.

[soaringhigh650]

There are significantly greater expectations put on us in terms of de-conflicting VFR and IFR traffic, fulfilling a duty of care towards all airspace users, as well as different restrictions put on how and when we can reduce separations between IFR and IFR. Let's face it: The FAA pushes more traffic, more types of traffic, has less incidents per flight hour and at less cost per flight hour. The environment is complex but flight safety and efficiency rankings are still at the top of the league.

I thought improving flight efficiency and the removal of gold plating and over-regulation was something that the UK CAA aspired to? Some of it is really within its control such as the manuals printed for ATCers. Others ain't.

For these reasons I still think one must still be able to draw comparisons with different major airports across the world. Use 'crude' metrics if you wanna use that word. Not doing so is like turning a blind eye to what the rest of the world is doing. An analogy is like saying why traffic lights in London roads are always out of sync causing traffic to move so slowly. But Washington synchronizes their traffic lights so they move more traffic! But ah, you can't just compare these traffic lights with Washington, it's like comparing apples and oranges.

So anyone who dares to draw any comparisons are told they shouldn't and the London continues to have its own traffic problems while refusing to draw any expertise from abroad.

Ain't ideal and about time the regulators are pushed.

[chevvron]

Can anyone tell us why SH650 has been allowed to return?

[DaveReidUK]

Well at least the mods let him bring his petard back with him. :O

[Eric T Cartman]

The sad thing is that what started as a simple compliment for EGLL ATC has turned into the usual pointless anti CAS net war.

[chevvron]

There's a bloke on Flyer Forums with a similar viewpoint to SH650 and I'm wondering if it's the same person.

[JB007]

What I witnessed last night for the 10 minutes we were at the holding point for 27L, having flown world-wide, LHR and London is the best ATC in the world as far as I'm concerned - fantastic job by the lady on the TWR frequency in 'interesting' circumstances!

[Sir Niall Dementia]

I'll be flying, VFR into LHR airspace this afternoon, and yesterday flew in IFR, I always enjoy the service and like all regulars you get to know the voices in your ears and which ones like a laugh and when. I was in the New York area last week and rate both sets of controllers very highly in very different, but equally busy airspace.

One question though, I've been to a couple of meetings at Swanwick, how the hell do you go there daily? I'd go mad after a couple of days (if not hours!)

SH650 really is rather strange, but the ignore button can be your friend.

SND

[Vortex Issues]

One question though, I've been to a couple of meetings at Swanwick, how the hell do you go there daily? I'd go mad after a couple of days (if not hours!)

Costa Coffee is our friend!

[ShannonACC]

Yes. Lots and lots of coffee, and here's me in the break room with herbal tea trying to not give me a crash before the next break, it's a vicious circle :D Anyway back on topic and each man back to their own.

[Rage]

Comment on two recent assertions from Soaringhigh650:

''We don't have any Class A airspace below 18,000ft.''

Correct : BOSH F16 vs PA28.

''London continues to have its own traffic problems while refusing to draw any expertise from abroad.''

Correct: We don't need any lessons, especially from the USA.

[good egg]

https://vimeo.com/132804154

Where was it you were planning on flying VFR at 7,000ft??

[good egg]

I am just trying to challenge anyone who think us 'clockwork mice' are dangerous or do nothing but interrupt airliners and therefore should be better kept out of airspace.

Those who really know the airspace are seldom a problem. Those who think they know the airspace...

http://flyontrack.co.uk/radar-replays/

[Eau de Boeing]

Anyway back on topic...........

[raptor001]

Fully agree,the controllers are working extremely professional and the are friendly to ,but it's common for UK ATC !!:ok: