Gliding Towing

[danosoaring]

G'day all,

Just wanted to get some input on my current situation. Approx 200 hour PPL (doing my CPL theory atm). I've been given what I think is a great opportunity to tow full time at a large gliding club for 4 months. This requires unpaid leave from work etc. but in return gives me 200 odd hours flying the Pawnee.

Most people I've bounced this off agree it's a great opportunity, but I've recently had a chat to someone who thinks the time off work (lost income) vs. a good chunk of hours in a Pawnee is not really worth it, as PA25/glider towing hours aren't necessarily regarded as quality flying hours opposed to me spending my lost income on an instrument rating or 200 series time.

To be honest, I still think it's a great opportunity as I love flying the Pawnee and I actually think the flying hours are quite valuable in terms of 'stick and rudder' time. Anyway, this persons opinion has obviously got me second guessing myself so I thought I'd put it to some people who are in industry or have had similar experiences.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[chimbu warrior]

200 hours tailwheel time with lots of take-offs and landings will definitely polish up your flying. That will ultimately assist you when it comes to CPL training.

Ask yourself, do I want to pay for 200 hours myself? I doubt it.

Yes, you will be forgoing an income, but if the day job remains open for you to return to, treat it as long service leave.

I'd grab it with both hands.

Enjoy.

[alexguru]

Glider flying is also a nice chance to polish flying skills too. Take advantadge of the opportunity.

[Romeo Hotel]

Seems a no brainer to be honest! Ask yourself if the person who has given you points against doing it has an alternative motive.

Grab any flying hours you can it all helps.

As stated above do you want to pay for 200 hours yourself? Nope!

Do it, enjoy it, meet new people and learn new skills.

[Stretch06]

Do it, enjoy it, gain some experience that will allow you to be different to the other candidates looking for jobs once you get your CPL.

:ok:

[Radix]

...........

[haughtney1]

My first 750 hours or so comprised mostly glider towing and a bit of meatbombing. Best experience I ever got early on, and it helped me avoid having to teach 10hr PPL's with 250hrs myself...

[pithblot]

I'm guessing there is a fair chance you want to go from where you are to commercial flying for reasons other than; job stability, family life and money.
Fair chance really that you actually quite enjoy flying? If this is so then you ought to grab this opportunity with both hands and enjoy the ride!

A piddling 200 hours of any flying should'nt have a negative impact on any future civilian employer with any real world experience - provided you set your own high personal standards, learn what airmanship is and strive to be very good at applying it. Through books and the net, you can learn from the mistakes of others, particularly in the areas of airmanship and mindset, and apply these lessons to flying your Pawnee. It well set you up well in the long run... might not make you rich with time, money and job stability, but you probably are not looking for those things right now?

[thrustpig]

I never knew I was alive until the end of a full day in a PA25. I only stopped to refuel and take a leak. Ask a bank runner or flying school instructor if they have ever done 40+ take-offs and landings in one day?? It can be a lonely job, depending………. however, now looking out from 35 000', i often wish that it could be with the same sense of freedom that came from the view through a bug smeared, wire cutter obscured, 30+ year old windscreen and just one shadow on the wing in the shape of my soul.

[AerocatS2A]

Could be bad experience on your C.V. Depends how long you want to postpone your future job as well and what kind of job you're looking for.
I can't see how it could be "bad" experience for any kind of flying CV. Care to elaborate?

[Greeb]

Please take the time to get to at least solo standard in gliders as well. There is little worse than a time builder on the front of the rope who has no real interest in what is going on at the other end. As a CASA Tow Pilot training delegate, (and Level 2 Gliding Instructor) I have had several sub-optimal experiences over the years training Commercial pilots to tow gliders who really only saw it as a cheap way to build hours.

The GFA Manual of Standard Procedures recommends that tow pilots be glider pilots as well.

If you fly gliders, you will understand what the glider pilot is looking for, regards what part of the sky to take her/him to. Remember it is the glider pilot who is paying for the operation. As already said by others, glider flying will certainly improve your hands on skills in other forms of aviation. Not to mention all those take offs and landings in the tug.

Many ATPL guys & Pruners fly gliders for fun and the current Chief of the Air Force started his aviation carrier in gliders all those years ago and owns and flys his own glider even now.

It really is great fun flying tugs. You will have a ball!

Greeb

[danosoaring]

Thanks everyone for your response.

Greeb,

I learnt to fly in gliders and I'm a current glider pilot with ABC cert. I doubt I would have got the gig otherwise. I also have 50 odd hours towing in a PA25, I do appreciate the people you speak of though and I couldn't agree more.

Pithblot,

You are bang on, I'm in the process of stepping away from my secure desk job in pursuit of doing something I love! I'm aware it won't be easy but I hope to enjoy the journey.

Again, you have all reiterated that this is a golden opportunity, especially for a low hour pilot such as myself.

Thanks again

[Pinky the pilot]

danosoaring; Enjoy the gig but remember to keep your `head on a swivel` at all times.

As you have already done some towing you will appreciate just how hard it can be at times to see modern glass ships.

I never knew I was alive until the end of a full day in a PA25. I only stopped to refuel and take a leak.

Concur with the above. My record is 55 tows in one day. Twice; Once at Waikerie in VH-WGC and the other time here at Takikawa, flying a Robin DR400.:eek:

That one was a very long day!!!

Now have around 2,000hrs GliderTowing and still enjoy it!:ok:

Nurse; My pills please!!!:eek::}:E

[mikedreamer787]

I used to fly the Pawnee on weekends at Benalla many years ago after I did the glider course on the Kooka. Kept the day job for income and I think you should do the same, but flog the arse off it every Saturday and Sunday wx permitting.

[aroa]

Not only will you tug up.... you may also may have to go off and find someone in a paddock who has fallen short on a cross country exercise and bring them home.
There's heaps to learn about retrieves from all sorts of out-landing places, like you can only get into the field under a power line, and plenty of considerations about T/O distance, ground conditions, length of grass, far fence height and etc.
You have to really do some serious thinking in tight situations so your tow out of a marginal field all works as planned. :ok:
Or you call in the trailer.
All good decision making experiences that you don't normally get in the operating from an aerodrome world. Flying skill building with a difference!

Enjoy and stay safe.

[Pinky the pilot]

Not only will you tug up.... you may also may have to go off and find someone in a paddock who has fallen short on a cross country exercise and bring them home.
There's heaps to learn about retrieves from all sorts of out-landing places, like you can only get into the field under a power line, and plenty of considerations about T/O distance, ground conditions, length of grass, far fence height and etc.
You have to really do some serious thinking in tight situations so your tow out of a marginal field all works as planned.
Or you call in the trailer.


aroa; Well said Sir!:ok: I have quite a few A/T retrieves including three gliders all in the same paddock about 50 or so nm from Waikerie on one occasion during a National Comps. One of the Pilots was a rather dejected Ingo Renner who was very sad at having to land out as he thought he`d blown his chances at winning his class.

He recovered magnificently and still won.:ok:

Also had one of my biggest scares in a retrieve.:eek: A Japanese Pilot visiting Waikerie dropped a wing on take off, managed to pick it up but overcorrected and started swerving from side to side. Thankfully the power of the Tug managed to eventually pull him straight before he dug a wing in and we climbed out ok.

Not something I wish to repeat!!:=

He was given a quiet talking to by the Japanese Instructor at the Club Bar later that evening.:hmm:

[gerry111]

Pinky, You're the guy that's done more tuggin' than anyone else that I know!

Hat, coat, door.. :O

Sorry. Back to thread...

[aroa]

Pinky leads with 55 tows in one day. Beats 38 hands down.

End of that very long day was a far out retrieve with the sun plunging towards the horizon. Slung the guy out and continued the climb so eventually he tells me he has final glide height for distance. Hops off the rope and slides by, picking up speed and hurtles off for home, his silhouette against a splendid backlit panorama of clouds.
I can only nose down and give chase to him and the afterglow on the horizon. The air is smooth as glass and as you swing onto odark finals, you can only think.. YES..!! ..this is what its all about!!

danosoar..enjoy.!!

[jas24zzk]

Best part of a retrieve is going past the tug....worst part is the realisation that his lack of pace is hitting your own back pocket :ugh:

[Pinky the pilot]

worst part is the realisation that his lack of pace is hitting your own back pocket

Which is why when doing A/T retrieves I always tried never to stuff around, knowing only too well it wasn`t my money I was spending!:eek:I always climbed at standard speed of 68kt to about 2,000 ft then went into a cruise climb of 75 to 85 kt depending on the Glider concerned.

Once they had sufficient altitude to get home and they released I went into the usual descent of 105kt and 2300rpm. It always seemed to get me to the circuit area at circuit joining height.:hmm:

Never had any complaints.

[jas24zzk]

Wasn't making a complaint about the Pilot as such Pinky.

Just the observation, that many gliders can out run the aeroplane sent the get them mobile again :}

[Pinky the pilot]

Wasn't making a complaint about the Pilot as such Pinky

Didn` t think you were, Mate!:ok:

many gliders can out run the aeroplane sent the get them mobile again

Struth!! Most if not all Glass ships can do so! I once hauled a Glasflugel Hornet out of a paddock only 12km to the west of Waikerie and he released at about 1500`and promptly got in formation with me (at 100kt!) just off my right wing for about 30 seconds. He then waved `bye` and was gone!!!:eek:

He beat me onto the ground by a full minute!:ooh:

[jas24zzk]

Only a minute? Had he forgotten to release? :}:}:}

Memory is a lil faded, but IIRC
Hornet Vne 125
Pilatus PC-11, 130 (tin ship)
ASW24, 145.
Stukaburra 118. (stringbag) (tried to achieve this with Mike Valentine in a Mk 4.....with the boards out, beyond the vertical and 104 knots hehe)

[gerry111]

My apologies for bringing up the past... But my gliding log book from 1972 into 1973 records training flights in Kookaburra Mk 3 and 4 aircraft of four minutes. And one of only three minutes. That was off a 1000' (if you were lucky) winch launch. These S.A. built Edmund Schneider aircraft had ASI's in 'Miles per hour'. So I have no idea what that was in Kts...


Pinky was there some of the time.


The Kookaburra was no thermal performer but at least it was aerobatic. Off a 1000' launch, it was possible to do a quick spin followed by a loop before landing.....:oh:

[jas24zzk]

118 Kts converted into Mph is still a small number :}

I found the Mk4 to be a great thermal performer, provided you didn't go in search of 'better' one hehe.

Just grabbed the old Logbook..

Flight # 61 2/01/1989 ES-52 (VH-GRX) Woodvale (the old bendigo strip) Winch 53 mins command.

Noting it back, was my first command flight over ten mins. Did 1 13 the day before dual in the K-7 GNX.

Crikey looking through that pages entries whilst trying to type...what a trip that was!

[jas24zzk]

Checking my first page, i have 7 entries of 3 mins.

2 entries at 5 mins, of which one was my first solo...and got 8 mins out of the final entry.

I'm pretty sure 1 of the guys on my course had a 1 minute entry. Low level winch failure sim.

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

I once raced the (then) current Qld Gliding Champion from Warwick to McCaffry Field (Jondaryan) - about 45 nm. Him in his Libelle - me in a C150. As he set course at 1500' over the YWCK field, I rolled on the runway.

I beat him - but only just, arriving in the circuit only about 1 min ahead!

I thought that was pretty amazing! :ok:

Dr :8

[Pinky the pilot]

ES-52 (VH-GRX)

Ex Barossa Valley Gliding Club aircraft.

I flew my first Glider solo in her; 17th January 1970.:ok:

[jas24zzk]

Well thats 2 of us then.

Very fond memories in this lil bus.

Trying to recall the name of the bloke that bought her off the Australian Air League. Last I saw, she looked pretty sad :{

I note on the CASA register, the old girls details were updated on may 1st.

Hmmm....i hope the new owner gives her rudder the flouro treatment again :}

[jas24zzk]

All i can say Dr, is that it must have been a crap day for gliding :p

[gerry111]

Jas,


ES-52, GRX is the same Kookaburra Mk 4 that you, Pinky and I flew. I was age 16.


Funnily enough, GRY has always been owned by a close family member of mine. Edmund or his son, Harry Schneider must have reserved a block of VH registrations...


GRY, the now 38 year old Glasflugel H303 Mosquito still gets to fly from time to time out of YGAW. And still looks like brand new. :)

[Pinky the pilot]

Edmund or his son, Harry Schneider must have reserved a block of VH registrations...

gerry111; Originally, all Gliders registered in Australia had the registration VH-G followed by whatever was available.

Around the mid 70`s (I think) that particular sequence either became filled or DCA s it still was then,permitted Gliders to take registration marks from anywhere in the available registrations.

The first registrations I remember out of the VH-G sequence were in the VH-KY block. KYA was one of the first ASW-20`s imported into the country.
KYO was the BVGC Astir 77 that met an untimely demise at the BVGC Regatta, in `79 from memory.:sad:

[gerry111]

I agree with you, Pinky.

That was also in the days when helicopters all had VH-H** registration marks. (As CASA apparently calls them.)

There are now lots of GA aircraft within the VH-G** block.

The Australia Day long weekend BVGC Regatta of 1979 is one that I'd prefer to try to forget. :sad:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

All i can say Dr, is that it must have been a crap day for gliding

Huh? Its been almost 40 yrs, but as I recall a Libelle with std ballast glides well at 75 - 80 knots - but pushing to 90 kts almost doubles the sink rate!

So I figure it was a pretty even match as far as straight line speed was concerned. :ok:

[jas24zzk]

First Glider i ever saw out of the G block was XOC.....known locally as exocet.

Geelongs Jantar Junior. At the time, lots of X** were being applied to Gliders...this was VERY early 90's.

Gimme a sec, checking logbook...................

XOB i think it appears to be, the first Junior I flew with GCOV @ Benalla.

IIRC, XOA, XOB,XOC are all Jantar Juniors., imported around the same time, 89, 90 ??

been a long time.......

To the mods and op...sorry for the thread drift, but the hangar memories are too hard to pass up.

[jas24zzk]

LOL DR,
If he'd taken a tow to 2000' he would have beaten you by a minute.

I've flown the Libelle, a very forgiving aeroplane, but I have more time in its aerobatic cousin, the Salto. From memory, we used a macready ring setting for about 77 knots most of the time.....anything over about 80 was sink rate territory, or preparation for big fat lazy loop
:}

[TechCons]

Indeed, the SZD Juniors XOA, XOB & XOC were all imported from Booker Airfield in the UK in 1990. I was working for the GCV at the time and did initial Form 2's and registration inspections on them. They served GCV well for many years, covering 100's of X/C Km's

[Tankengine]

These days if you replaced the Libelle with a more modern ASG29 or JS1 they would beat the Dr by 15mins or more!:E

[Pinky the pilot]

I've flown the Libelle, a very forgiving aeroplane

That would be the H201 Standard Libelle then. Only ever flew one once.

The BVGC had a H301b Open Libelle in which I logged close to 100 hours. I would not describe its handling as forgiving, indeed it was a difficult machine to fly accurately.

Once mastered though....well, I loved the thing!!:ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

These days if you replaced the Libelle with a more modern ASG29 or JS1 they would beat the Dr by 15mins or more!:EWarwick to Jondaryan in 15 min? That is awesome! :eek:

180+ kts? Now that IS motoring - with no motor! :E

.......and to return to the original post............ glider towing with a Pawnee? Flying is flying, but the Pawnee has got to be the easiest flying tail-dragger ever built! The biggest challenge is to not land tail-wheel first!

Personally, I wouldn't give up a well paying job to go tow gliders.

Dr :8

[Pinky the pilot]

Flying is flying, but the Pawnee has got to be the easiest flying tail-dragger ever built!

Roger that.:ok:

The biggest challenge is to not land tail-wheel first!

Can`t say I ever had that problem. Certainly do not remember ever having done so.