What hope for low hour pilots ???

[smartcol]

Having Spent 35,000 and two years on my training, I
have to say i am becoming seriuosly disheartened with
the situation for low time pilots.

Every job that is availiable is one which the pilots
need to be type rated, or have thousands of hours. Can
anyone tell me how exactly I am supposed to get that
experience, if I cannot get a job in the first place
to acheive it ???

I also feel a little pis*ed with the schools, after
giving them my money doing my integrated course and
being made to feel like a schoolboy throughout, it is
as if they have now washed their hands off me now I am
finished, surely they should offer advice and consult
me about opportunities and next steps. Unfortunetly
these places are only interested in making money and
pleasing airlines so they can get sponsorships, once
they get their money they couldn't care less.

I find it amazing, that even though I am willing to
work for a small haulage company or similar, for
NOTHING, just to gain experience and hours, that I
still cannot get work. In what other line of work,
would you not get work if you offered yourself for
free.

I look forward to any ideas or words of advice anyone
can give me, with regards as to where I go from here
with 250 hours, 23 multi, CPL/IR and MCC ???

Thanks

[FRIDAY]

Hey smartcol,
I sympathise whole-heartely with your situation as I will no doubt experience the same situation in a year or so.
However surely you undertook your training with a level head and realised even pre 11/9 competition was very tough at the best of times. Like you say you've paid your money to be pampered to some degree like a schoolboy it is none the less a course of study just like college, you pay for the tutoring,exams,flying etc and in some cases a 1 or 2 day course in interview prep or c.v writing, but you seem to be under the illusion a job comes in tow with your payment or choice of FTO.
Well why should it? they may aswell advertise themselves as a recruitment agency aswell. Yes some FTO's do take more interest then others in there cadets job positioning but there main concern is your ability to sign a cheque harsh but business is business. I would say if some of the FTO's were able to hand their graduates straight into airlines they would have no problem doing some and advertise the fact but there is simply no demand at the moment.
I don't like to be mean but you should have planned for such a scenario, cash wise maybe you have. If I were in your situation and I take it your strung for cash your just going to have to swallow your pride and start gaining cash where ever you can and keep yourself flying, perphaps get a flight instructors rating, no doubt you have thought of all of this but now you must act on it. The airline ain't going come knocking but when times get better and your in an interview its how you spent this crucial time after training moping or agreesively refusing to give up they will be interested to hear, its a sure test of character.
Personally I'd say give up, its less competition for me but don't listen to strangers. ;)

[N380UA]

Smartcol

What can I say? Been there done that!! AND IT S*CKS!! But look at it from a status point of view. You are now a qualified aviation professional (Pilot). That’s a huge asset. There are plenty of jobs around on the ground for good folk with a well founded knowledge of flight operations. Check out the BAA, aircraft manufacturer, consultant, airline etc. or even try your self as an instructor. Just see to it that you make enough dosh to pay of your loan, continue flying and support your life. That way you’ll be within aviation, you could build upon your flight knowledge and experience and you’ll know what the flight job situation is from the inside.
I know it’s not a seat in the pointy bit of an aircraft as you (I and all the others) have hoped for but our time will come. And by the way, just doing flight related jobs on the ground can be rewarding at times…too.
Don’t give up mate. Cheers.

Ooh, and Friday, not a chance mate!! We’ll never reduce competition on our behalf.
Take care all.

[scroggs]

Smartcol

Just go back through your FTO's joining info paperwork, would you, and see where it was that they promised you a job? Or that they would assist you in finding one? I doubt you'll find any reference to either, I'm afraid. As the other posts have said above, FTOs contract with you to train you to fATPL and that's it. It's really no concern of theirs whether or not you find a job afterwards, just as it's no concern of a university whether you get a job after a degree.

Nor is it your FTO's fault that the jobs outlook changed completely while you were in training. As all investment advertising states, 'past performance is no guarantee for the future'. We were heading for a recession in aviation anyway; 9/11 slightly accelerated it and temporarily deepened it. In other words, with or without 9/11, jobs were going to be hard to get.

The fact that many pilots were laid off over the last 9 months has allowed those few airlines that do recruit to specify 'experienced and type-rated'. But the pool pilots that fits these criteria will run out, and airlines will have to lower their sights once again - the only question is how long that process will take. If you're a regular here, you will know the moderators' opinions on that.

As always, it's a case of supply and demand. No-one owes you a job. And don't go down the line of suggesting working for free; by doing so you devalue every pilot out there - effectively you're suggesting that a more experienced colleague should stay unemployed so that you can gain hours for free. You will really make yourself popular with that idea! I think you'll find, in any case, that it's not legal in the EU to employ someone without paying them.

[Nigel Osborn]

Smartcol.
You don't mention your age or educational qualifications but if applicable, have you considered joining the military? I'm not familiar with the current requirements in the UK but over here qualified pilots often join the military if they can't find a civvy job. For example several laid off Ansett pilots have joined the RAAF. Both the military and civvy companies go through periods of too many pilots and then suddenly there's a shortage. Check out the world scene, especially unpleasant places where most people don't want to work; at this point getting experience and some good flying under your belt might be more important than having a ball.
Finally don't fly for free; in the long run it doesn't pay off. Good luck and hang in there.:D

[Flypuppy]

I am always amazed at the reactions of people on this bulletin board, moderators included.

Someone writes, that in my humble opinion, is a fairly reasonable post and everyone gives the poor guy a hard time. I guess this isnt the place to come for a bit of tea and sympathy.

It is disheartening when you are down at the bottom of the ladder, stuck at the end of the queue. The seemingly Catch 22 situation of need the experience for job but no way of getting it is enormously frustrating. There can be few industries that require such and huge investment of time money and psychological energy.

Compare the after sales service you get when you buy a 35,000 car, you will get at least a phone call from the customer care department to find out how you are enjoying your new purchase. You wont find that written into the purchasing contract. That may not be a realistic comparison, but maybe you see what I am trying to get at. Just a phone call would be enough. It is all psychological, but the guy that just spent a mountain of money will at least feel someone gives a damn.

How often have I see it written here "no one owes you a job"? Of course they fecking dont!! I dont see that written in Smartcol's post, not even reading between the lines. It isnt pleasant being unemployed at any time. It is even more unpleasant if you have completed a very difficult course of study, with no prospect of decent employment in the subject matter.

Working for nothing is of course not the way forward, but if I remember correctly there was another moderator who was advocating Flying Instructors working for free because they could afford to (on this thread (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7527&highlight=flying+instructors) ).

I would have thought it would be in the FTO's interest to give some assistance to succesful students to point them in the direction of a job, it would make a school more attractive if they could tell prospective customers that they helped x number of former students into jobs with a, b and c airlines, similar to some of the procpectii that universities and colleges send out. The big difference between University/College courses and gaining a CPL/IR is that at the end of those Uni/College courses you may have a debt of 5-8000 pounds, with the CPL/IR that debt is significantly more.

Only the foolish or the very wealthy would begin upon such a course of instruction such as this without considering the implications, as pilots we are generally taught to hope for the best and plan for the worst. Even on saying that it is not easy.

At least N380UA posts something positive and helpful. Smartcol, I understand what you are saying.

[scroggs]

Flypuppy

you're right, of course! I was a bit unsympathetic - probably comes from too much time on this forum. I dealt with the facts of the case rather than the hopes and disappointment of our friend smartcol.

I do understand how frustrating and downright scary it is for those of you who are tipped out into the full blast of reality from the sheltered waters of the training system. You have a perfectly reasonable point that the FTOs could and should try harder to look after your interests. But the fact remains that they don't, and they didn't promise to. Those of you still in the training system, and those in the process of choosing an FTO, may be able to do something about this: kick those FTOs into offering the services you need, by threatening to take your money elsewhere unless they sharpen up their act.

However, that doesn't alter the fact that there are very few jobs out there, however much we might all hope otherwise. Nor does it change the economic realities of supply and demand. It most certainly isn't the fault of those more experienced and now unemployed pilots that the few jobs available will go to them before they go to smartcol and his peers. Nor would it improve the situation to advocate that people work for free; that just diminishes the commercial value of all pilots everywhere.

For smartcol, right now life's a bitch. It seems like all the cards are stacked against him, and he feels that the industry incumbents are conspiring to keep it that way. That's not true, but it'll hurt anyway. And nothing I can do or say will improve it for him!

All he can do is have patience, keep current, build hours when and where he can, and it might all come together at some point in the future - but no-one knows exactly when that will be.

Hopefully the rest of you will now understand why we recommend you have a back-up plan.

[foghorn]

Thought for the thread.

The only certainty in the aviation jobs game is this one: If you give up you're certain not to get a job.

Chin up it will improve for all of us soon. It's not far off a year since since the WTC disaster...

cheers!
foggy
Underemployed CPL/IR.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I sypmathise with smartcol. Its a crappy situation - I have at least a dozen very good mates in the same position and I talk to them regularly. "I share your pain".

But the posting was poor. The FTO is contracted to train you to pass your exams and flight tests. You want career advice then you can have it. Simply pay for an additional post graduate service.

"even though I am willing to work for a small haulage company or similar"

Sounded just a touch to Regal. If - say - Emerald offered you a HS748 job I would expect you to leap at it and be very grateful.

My advice to you would be that which I have dispensed before here. Get a job in aviation on the ground that pays well. If a better paid job is available in your old job is available take it.

Use the money to pay off debt. Use the spare to keep currency on a sim. Use any spare time to generate contacts.

Don't become an instructor because jobs are like hens teeth unless you have an inside track to a job.

Basically all you have to do is wait for the market whilst retaining your skills and ratings and paying the rent.

Flypuppy. A touch unfair I think. I never ADVOCATED working for free. I DID explore the issue and illustrated that ideals are subservient to personal circumstance. I have a friend you can afford to fo it. It IS the best option for him. If I told him not to do it I would be loyal to my principals but dissloyal to my friend. A moral maze indeed.

I understand that the Wannabes forum has an important role to play in providing morale support to people at the bottom of the ladder. Its a role I have sought to cherish and expand over the years.

However. It is secondary to the role of supplying realistic advice from people who know what they are talking about.

What I wanted from PPRuNe in my early days were hard facts, justifiable opinions and reasoned arguments from people in the industry. Such things are so hard to find when you know little and nobody in the business.

I have good - childhood - friends plus ex-students for whom I care for that are out of work with fATPL's.

I know that they will make damn fine airline pilots someday. But the advice and opinion I give them is the same as I post here.

In September I called the hiring market pretty accurately as it has turned out so far. I rightly predicted the wages and unemployment levels for FI's in the UK in what is now the peak season. Several schools are paying no retainer and £5 an hour airborne for instructors who are on ad hoc contracts to avoid NMW. I also know personally of 3 FI's with no time who are unemployed and another with commercial instructing time at OATS who is having to work out of aviation as what is available will not pay his mortgage.

I don't particularly want to say I told you so. But I did. Unhappily.

The upturn is coming. Things will be pretty good three years from now I am confident.

Cheers

WWW

[FRIDAY]

I second that WWW, As a wannabe at the bottom of the ladder I want plenty of tips and info but in order to make the right step I want the cold hard facts.
Whats the point in sugar coating something which will only lead to further disapointment. I will tell it as it is, and if its found to be negative by the likes of flypuppy well so be it.
I had not intention of giving smartcol a hard time but believe he/she would much prefer a straight answer to the best of my ability rather then a sympathetic ear.
And just a note INMO, Fcuk beating around the bush and seeking "tea and sympathy". Go talk to an agony aunt if you want to hear how everything will be rosy!
I believe the majority of wannabes will appreciate a respectful, honest and factual not fictional answer.

:rolleyes:

[B412]

Well lets face facts, times in aviation world wide are pretty sad at the moment. But some things have remained fairly valid through the good and the bad times. Sadly due to the extraordinary period up until 11/9, those criteria disappeared somewhat, and therefore are a shock now to people just finishing their training.

Im referring of course to the hours required to get a job. Hitting the 500 mark is a good start, crossing the 1000 is better. Whilst times are as they are, where type rated drivers with hours are on the market, times are tough for the wannabee. But sadly there has never been a route where you get a license and then step into the front of a big jet guaranteed. Pilots have always had to make moves, often between continents, work behind bars and drive taxis to secure their foundation in this career. Generally with all three combined. For married people this can be difficult but even there with patience and understanding by the spouse, it can be achieved.

I'm an ozzie, and the route there for years was for most guys to start in GA and progress through bush singles, bush twins, state regionals and if lucky hit a jet carrier. In the UK you don't have much of a GA market, so when times are tough, you need to look further afield, as well as just the UK instructional market. Check out the GA markets abroard, check the instructing markets abroard.

Many on this forum are quick to say that qualified commercial pilots from other countries, such as the southern commonwealth, are taking your jobs, but I hark back to the first part of my post ... hours. They probably had them before they embarked on the JAA Exam and complete redo of the IR route, that they had to complete, in order to qualify for employment in the UK.

I can see where WWW is coming from with the sim, but if I were you I'd simply go for the hours, wherever you have to go to get them, as when the jobs start coming back to non-typed pilots the ones with the higher times will be the first to get in. :)

Hang in there, it is always this way with Aviation and it swings both ways on ten yearly cycles.

[lonerider]

I can't believe that this guy has spent 35k+ and is prepared to work for free. What is the world coming to; and still nobody will give him a job. :eek:

[Blue Bay]

Guys, give smartcol a break. Get off the high horses and don't patronise a guy who is probably feeling a bit desperate at the moment. We all know how it feels.
Good luck smartcol.

[Flypuppy]

friday,

If you want cold hard facts let me give you mine.

I have spent the last 9 months working very hard to pass the JAA ATPL Ground Exams and complete the CPL Skills Test. It is not easy. It is very expensive. I spent 6 months in Coventry learning some fairly useless facts that I certain I will never need to know again. All that and having to pay for the privilege.

When you are flying a twin engine aeroplane it costs about ₤5.00 per minute when you are training. You will spend in 2 hours more than the average man in the UK earns in a week. You will suddenly get used to saying things like "Oh it was just another ₤1500". You will not be "pampered like a schoolboy", you will be made to feel inadequate, your flying skills questioned at every turn, every change of altitude, every decision put under the microscope during a de-brief. It is not like doing your PPL, where you are doing it for fun. You are training to become a professional pilot, and the passengers you fly are entitled to expect the highest standards from you as a pilot. It will be painful; it will be unpleasant at times. You will question your decision to become a professional pilot. You will wonder why you ever thought you could do this. You will watch your bank account emptying a rate never thought possible. You will become despondent. You will ache to go home. You will consider throwing the towel in and saying sod it all. You will look at the weather forecast with a sinking feeling in you tummy as you see that you cant fly again for probably the next 3-4 days.

Once you have completed the CPL training and passed the Skills Test, you will suddenly be confronted with the reality that a CPL is about as much use as chocolate fireguard. Oh well it is just another ₤12,000 for an IR.

I have stopped at the CPL level, waiting until there is a realistic chance that low hour guys might get a look in again, before I commit another bucket load of money to this project.

What has it cost me so far? About ₤25,000, 9 months away from my wife and child, more stress than I thought was possible and possibly damage to my marriage. I had a back up plan but sadly with the reduction in spending in the IT industry I am now unemployed wondering how I am going to pay my mortgage for the next few months. The money I had earmarked for IR training will probably go that way.

I look at one of my friends who did a MCSE course for about 1/5th of the cost of my training and he is walking from contract to contract earning on average ₤50 per hour. He can pick and choose where he works and for how long. Am I jealous? Maybe a little. He will probably do more flying this year than I will as he has just bought a share in PA44

Am I beaten? No, not yet. I will get to where I want to be come what may.
Do I appreciate people like you, Friday, who have yet to begin on the difficult path of training to be a commercial pilot making patronizing remarks? No, sir, I do not. Maybe once you have been through the mill you will understand what smartcol and myself are talking about.

WWW, I don’t want to get into arguing about the semantics of words and their usage, but if someone you knew had enough money would you advise them to pay for their CV to be read, pay for an interview, pay for a sim ride and pay for a 737 type rating a la Ryanair?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Flypuppy. Stick in their friend. You are probably at the nadir of your quest at this time. I have been there. In the early winter of 1999 I was facing very little PPL work as a FI. I was in debt. The money coming in only covered my living expenses if I did nothing at all but work. I had a big fat file of rejection letters and all in all things were pretty glum. As it happens I got lucky and got taken on by BAE.

You will make it I am sure. Its undoubtably harder for you being an older man with far more responsibilites than I had. For that you have only my admiration. I think you are being very sensible in your postponing of the IRT. Your insightful comments about the difference between PPL and CPL are also extremely valuable. Far too many Wannabes envisage the breathless excitement of the PPL as being the format for future training.

Having been a PPL and then a CPL IR instructor I can atest to the fact that the two courses are very different. With a PPL students you are cajolling, upbeat, fatherly - you have scope to put a bit of fun into each days training.

When you reach CPL level the same applies but to a much diminished degree. Mistakes are highlighted in terms of how you would have killed everyone on board. The standards of preperation and the directness of de-briefing are much more taught. Particularly so when you are dealing with a cadet for whom someone else is paying. There is a definite shift in tone. The damocles sword of the huge costs weighs heavy above the whole course.

As for paying Ryanair for interviews and CV's I think it sucks. I don't want to see people do it. BUT if I had a friend who could afford it I would be remiss if I didn't advise that in the end - it would be advantageous to spend the money and try.

I would actually draw the line at self sponsored type ratings as I actually believe they are a waste of money for low time guys.

Nobody should have to work for free but I know good people who have who are now fine airline pilots. They accelerated their careers by doing so. I wish it were not so but it is.

Some people have a lot of money to throw are becoming a pilot. This helps them. Its unfair and unjust but it is true.

I was not one of them.

Keep your chin up.

WWW

[Stu Bigzorst]

Smartcol,

I just got a job flying pax in a multi crew turbo prop - and I had 176.5 hours when I started the type rating.

Find an airline that you feel might employ you as a pilot. Get a non flying job with them (cleaning the bogs if need be). Assuming you're not a t*sser, then you are front of the queue when the hiring starts.

If the plan fails, well at least you have some aviation experience to pop onto the CV. "Huge Airways - bio disposal engineer".

DO NOT just write letters and wait for the job. It's not going to happen. I wish I'd learnt that a year ago!!

Stu

[jarjam]

Smartcol,
I to sympathise with you, I completed fATPL MCC late last august just before sep 11.
As other posters stated the FTO's are under no obligation whatsoever to give you career guidence, they are businesses and make their money on producing pilots like a sausage factory regardless of the state of the market.
Like you and many others I to have been through the mill financialy and emotionaly but I will not give in.
After sept 11 I managed to pay for an FIC on my credit card throughout Dec/Jan I worked hard on this. After I put myself around and was LUCKY enough to come across a good flying school at a major U.K airport, they took me on and after three months I have just crept past 500hrs and rescently renewed my M.E./I.R which was a relief I can tell you.
My point is dont give up, do what ever you can to stay close to the industry flyng if possible if not go and get a job with a ground handling agency, anything to keep yourself associated and your finger on the pulse.
Yes its crap at the moment but dont let your chances be ruined by falling into the shadows because when it does come good nobody will have a clue who you are.
I know I'll be ready. keep your chin up.


Cheers Chaps.

[fcom]

You are now in the same situation as I and about 20 of my colleagues were 12 years ago when we finished our training at Oxford.We all thought we were going straight into job's when leaving and only about 3 did.
Don't be disheartened as I don't know of one single pilot that hasn't eventually ended up in the right hand seat of a jet.It may take up to 3years and in my case it was 5 but I got there eventually.I can also see where you are coming from when you say you are prepared to offer your services for free as I have a long memory and I can remember doing exactly the same.You just want to fly and consider it a bonus that you are gaining experience without the pain of paying for it.This approach very rarely works though and then only if you are prepared to work out of timbuctoo on a cessna.It's easy for experienced pilots to say it is immoral to fly for nothing but to these guys the novelty of flying has worn off and of course it is now just a job.Stay in there and keep your ear close to the ground and keep pumping out those single page C.V's and I promise you you will get there.In the meantime try and get a job with an airline at least you will be in a position to hear the latest news and get in there before the others,thats what I did.:cool:

[Tosh McCaber]

With the current dearth of jobs, take someone who has just spent £40,000 to £50,000 plus, of his/ her own money, and qualified ATPL, with 180 hours, and with no prospect of work other than a low paying Big Mac type of job.

How is this person going to be able to fund the amount of flying hours, and/or sim hours, which will give sufficient hours to keep him/her current over the next 1-3 years? The depressing thing is that, in the space of a year, when things start to pick up, newly qualified students, with lots of recent experience, will probably be at a distinct advantage to the current unemployed.

fcom, you are the only light at the end of the tunnel. Can you let us know how you and your colleagues managed to keep current and competitive for the 3-5 year lean period of your lives?

[smartcol]

Firstly, I am taken aback by the responses to my post. Some are valid and I can accept them, but others I feel are a little harsh.

I am well aware of the fact that I am not going to WALK INTO a job now I have finished my course, only those immortal sponsored breed among us are capable of that.

I feel that WWW is a little offside with his retort to me saying
"even willing to work for a small haulage company" if he chose to read on, it actually says FOR FREE. Of course I would jump at the chance of a job with anyone. I am not being regal at all.

As far as FTO's go, frankly I will not change my stance on this, yes I am disheartened with the situation, but for those of you who did their flying at large school, which included self-sponsored and sponsored students, you will understand where I am coming from. It took a lot for me to get money and get into this course, at 22, it was a massive step for me. And to be honest it didn't really go according to plan, I made a mess of some exams, and battled through, it eventually took me nearly two years. During that time I felt I was treated poorly by the school, I was not allowed an opinion, I was to conform to their way of being and really I felt as if I were to fend for myself, which made me all the more determined and stick two fingers up when I did eventually pass, is that the right way to treat a paying customer ??? The patrionising and the arrogance and the RAF military style of these places does not rub off on me, being a customer to a business as so many of you are calling it, I expect more, not to be treated like a schoolboy and have to be made to feel inadequate to ludicrous extremes such as not wearing my tie, or having not shaved, or not wearing my hair like some would like, what rubbish !!! I am paying for this, if I want to fly in my pants I should be able to !!! And before everyone rants on about that being stupid and they are trying to teach me respect, well that is not the way to go about it. I think the course was difficult enough without me feeling stressed and getting grief from people who decided they did not like me because I did not brown nose their arse like the others.

Thanks to all of you who give words of support, I have in no way given up, I know things will happen and I just need to hang in there. I guess having spent the money I am expecting it to happen immediatly for me, I suppose you do after 35,000. I was basically having a moan, and looking for advice and help as to what others in my situation are doing or thinking about.

I also have to say I find this forum a bit cut throat, I have to admit I sometimes look to get ideas about what others are doing and alikes, but it is like a rat race, no-one giving anything away, keeping cards close to their chest, come on guys, we are all pilots, we all need to help each other ... don't we ???

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Smartcol you might be a wind up but I am going to bite anyway.

You sound like a complete pain in the arse.

I've seen the likes of you go through training. Indeed you sound a bit like one of my ex-students who is currently flipping burgers. He would turn up sometimes like he had just managed to stumble out of bed at 11 in the morning.

Hair unbrushed, no shave, tie half done up swaying from an unwahed collar above unpolished shoes. He too messed up a few exams and ended up taking a bit longer than he expected.

He just didn't get it and perhaps you didn't either.

You were being TRAINED to be a professional pilot. Thats not quite the same as being trained to fly an aeroplane. I DEMAND that my students strived to meet the same standard that I set. Be that on the ILS, in the circuit or in the briefing room. Be that doing a walkround, filling in the tech log or polishing one shoes.

It can be fun starting the briefing with a 'Who's got the shiniest shoes competition'.

Thats what a GOOD flying school/instructor will strive and help you to do - emulate the highest standards until they become your own.

Frankly I don't give a damn what you are paying. You are NOT a customer to me. You are my STUDENT. I am your INSTRUCTOR. This is AVIATION and this is how it has always been.

This is not life like you have known it at home, in school or university. There are no prizes for everyone, everybody does not have a valid point of view and self expression is not encouraged. If you cannot show enough self discipline for a year to adapt to your FTO environment then I doubt whether a lifetime of adapting to the demands of airline life will work out very well for you.

Do you think I can turn up at work without a tie? Without a shave?

Do you think your patronising arrogant ex RAF type instructors are in any way different from the Check Captains and Sim Instructors that you will meet in your first airline?

As far as FTO's go, frankly I will not change my stance on this, yes I am disheartened with the situation, but for those of you who did their flying at large school, which included self-sponsored and sponsored students, you will understand where I am coming from.

And what about all your course colleagues that got on well with the course - you sound like the course whinger to me you blames everyone else for their ills. Buy a mirror pal.

It took a lot for me to get money and get into this course, at 22, it was a massive step for me. And to be honest it didn't really go according to plan, I made a mess of some exams, and battled through, it eventually took me nearly two years.

Hey, join the club. Its big and full of people who paid and risked more than you. Training rarely goes according to plan. Why did you make a mess of some exams? I have seen some pretty 'un-academic' people achieve high first time passes through putting in the hours and then putting in some more. Or were you in the social club most nights?

During that time I felt I was treated poorly by the school, I was not allowed an opinion, I was to conform to their way of being and really I felt as if I were to fend for myself, which made me all the more determined and stick two fingers up when I did eventually pass, is that the right way to treat a paying customer ???

Well if ALL students felt that way the school would have a pretty poor reputation that I would be aware of and I am not. How can you not be allowed an opinion? People may ignore or discount it but you can have it. Life in the real world and in airline flying relies on you conforming your behaviour and on you fending for yourself. I think it likely that the two fingers you stick up at your old instructors would be swiftly returned...

The patrionising and the arrogance and the RAF military style of these places does not rub off on me,

You just didn't get it did you. :rolleyes:

being a customer to a business as so many of you are calling it, I expect more, not to be treated like a schoolboy and have to be made to feel inadequate to ludicrous extremes such as not wearing my tie, or having not shaved, or not wearing my hair like some would like, what rubbish !!!

The marketing department are there the massage your ego. The instructors are there to turn a complete numpty into something resembling a fledgling professional pilot in 12 months. A sometimes painful reshaping. Sometimes impossible...

I am paying for this, if I want to fly in my pants I should be able to !!! And before everyone rants on about that being stupid and they are trying to teach me respect, well that is not the way to go about it.

Says a 22 year old wonder kid with very little knowledge of the ways of the world.

I think the course was difficult enough without me feeling stressed and getting grief from people who decided they did not like me because I did not brown nose their arse like the others.

Son, your instructors didn't want you to brown nose them. They don't need your admiration or respect. You needed theirs.

By god would I go the extra mile for the nice guy student who was a bit hopeless but tried hard. All instructors will.

The world owes me a job, nobody likes me, I am a customer, this school is crap barrack room lawyer types - like you appear to be - would get the standard brief and the standard sortie. If they didn't "get it" then repeat until they run out of money.

Perhaps this is why your training didn't quite run as smoothly as you had planned.

You can ponce about this bulletin board for as long as you like whining about not having a job and how horrible your school was. Just don't expect an easy time from me.

I know too many ex-students who were superb during training, who pulled theirselves up by the bootlaces to become excellent pilots who are now flipping burgers waiting for that first break.

In fact none of them are flipping burgers. Some are training as we speak to be cabin crew with Britannia. Some are working as baggage handlers with an eye to becoming a despatcher at Luton. Some are working the Ops desk in Liverpool at the local airfield charter outfit.

These are the people you are up against and if there is any justice they will get jobs ahead of you with your fly for free leanings.

Son all you have done in aviation so far is write a big cheque. You want a job - go out and earn one.

WWW :mad:

[D McQuire]

Well said WWW.

I just hope all wannabee's who are about to take up full time training read your posting.

The standards required of a student you expected as an instructor are what I would have guessed a trainee professional pilot must live up to. I'm about to start training in Jerez soon and your post has confirmed in my mind the behavior, attitude and performance expected. It is very reassuring to hear this.

I've been through the PPL route which was a very exciting and also pleasant way to spend weekends. It was also about as intellectually demanding as reading the Sunday newspapers. I do not expect obtaining an fATPL to be anything like that. In Jerez, I hope not only to learn how to be a professional pilot but how to think and act like one too.

BTW I don't know what other contracts say but the BAE one is quite specific
about acceptable standards of appearance and behavior.

[distaff_beancounter]

WWW What can I say, other than a VERY LOUD

HEAR HEAR!


D McQuire As far as I am aware, most of the large FTO's such as BAE, OATS & CABAIR, expect acceptable standards of appearance and behaviour. This usually includes wearing the uniform, provided by the FTO, (or the airlines' uniform, for those now rare sponsored students).

Despite smartcol's views, most FTO's & their instructors, are trying to ensure that students are as "Airline Ready" as possible, & not just in possession of an fATPL.

Surely this should include instilling sufficient SELF-discipline into students, by requiring them to turn up, on time, in uniform, clean & tidy, & shaved.

Will an airline expect any less?

[worzel]

Just for the next few lines I’m going to stick up for smartcol. I came through the modular route with one of the largest if not the largest FTO’s, finishing my training ahead of schedule and getting first time passes in everything. I’m slightly older but still the right side of thirty and have led a disciplined life, my shoes are shiny and I take great pride in my appearance. I can’t get a job, so now I‘m doing the cabin crew thing and I hate every minute of it (apart from the nightstops). Pax and management treat me like a child with no brain, so I bite my tongue, keep my ear to the ground and wait for that first break. One day I’ll show them what I can do. I now know that the company I work for have no intention of putting me at the front of one of their shiny jets, likewise the other three chaps with frozen ATPL’s within the company in Ops and other departments will all stay on the ground.

During the last 18 months in the search for a job I have been through every emotion going, highs, lows and every now and then you feel bitter and want to have a good whinge (from what seen working in a large airline that wont change for the rest of your career). I think smartcols on a low and he’s entitled to be. Feel sorry for yourself for a while, because no-one else will no matter what they say, but make sure you come out of your low on a high and even more determined than ever. Oh and by the way no other wannabe will help you get a job, we’re all too busy trying to get one ourselves. Once I’m sorted I’ll help everyone that I can, but not before.

I too feel let down by my FTO. Of course I didn’t expect them to get me a job, that wasn’t in the contract, however I feel that they should have been more customer orientated. At the end of the day I am a customer and I was just treated like a commodity. In addition a little after sales care would have been appreciated, it could even have been to their advantage from a marketing point of view, many people ask for recommendations on a school and I would not recommend mine. If I may be brave enough to disagree with WWW things may always have been this way, it does not mean in this modern age that they are right. Perhaps things will change now if the schools need to work harder to attract custom.

Anyway smartcol keep your chin up and I hope that you and every wannabe out there gets a job soon…….just after me.

[3Lions]

I was mulling over what I was going to post as I read throught this thread, then I read WWW.

I dont need to say anything more, damn well said.

3:cool:

[Busterplane]

WWW

Well said that man.

Last year offered 172 job to 2 guys fresh out of OATS. Crap money(£120-150pw) but 500 hrs pa plus multi IR renewal after 6 months.

Guess what? They turned it down because they believed that the airlines would be knocking their doors down within weeks! WRONG

Neither has flown more than a couple of hours since. The guy who we took on now has 600hrsTT and a COMMERCIAL reference and is way ahead of them due to hard work, commitment and FLEXIBILITY.

As for this posts originator. I prefer to sit by someone who looks the part. If your appearance is sloppy there is reasonable cause to believe that your airmanship is too. Have a shower, get a haircut and a shave, or get the hell out of this business. This is no job for a slap happy character like you.

No time for wingers. Get over it, there are few of us that havent been through the mill.

[skysheriff]

WWW take a chill pill my friend

professional pilots dont let their emotions run so high for such minor issues. Anyway, all wannabes are pretty much ****ed up by the JAR system. Doz not matter if their flipping burgers or not.

[basil fawlty]

Hmmmm? Why is it whenever I browse this particular forum it is always full of posts seeking reassurance and sympathy??
Gentlemen, and ladies (if applicable), you, and you alone are ultimately the creators of your own destinys. Fortune may be in your favour or it may go against you, but it is up to you to make the key decisions that will hopefully maximise your full potential and lead to the results you desire.
Smartcol, I am absolutely amazed that you seem to be so childish and naive.
Flypuppy, you paid your money, got your licence and now there are no jobs available. Thats a fact of life at the moment I'm afraid. Get used to it, I'm not offering sympathy to any grown adult with half a brain and in control of his own bowel movements. The only crumbs of comfort I can think of is the fact that everybody started somewhere (i.e low TT), pilots don't go on forever and one day there will be jobs available. Its inevitable, but maybe not next year or even five years from now. Who knows? In the late 1980's pilots were snapped up by half decent airlines the day after their CPL/IR was issued. Seems like fantasy land now but yes, it really did happen!
Please, please, please can we have some creative posts and useful information on here and not this continual " I worked really, really hard, and took two years of sh*t from my FTO, and paid them many thousands of pounds of borrowed money and now all I can do is stack shelves at Tesco's"!!
Did you guys not have any form of contingency plan? (I thought good aviators always had a backup plan) Were you really so stupidly blinded by the "glamour" and "glory" of a professional flying career that you didn't contemplate this scenario before you started?
We all make choices and must all live with the consequences. I'm a flight engineer, my days in this post are surely numbered, I'm in the same boat as you in so far as I have my pilots licence but with no firm job lined up. But am I whinging about how things are so unfair? NO.

[Cricketer]

I can not beleive what I read here in these posts sometimes.

WWW - you should be ashamed of yourself!! I can not beleive that someone whoshould have been instilling all the good qualities of pilots into theirstudents should now be sitting here and slagging them off!!!!

I can sympathise with the post originator. Sure the FTO does not owe them a job but it would help them with getting further students if they had an after graduation service for students.

Name me one university that does not have this service!!!

It makes sense for a business relying on recommendations for it's customers!!!!

As for WWW's post - I must have read this post a different way as I thought the poor bloke was just looking for ideas not a slagging for being a waster. All this crapabout shiny shoes just pissesme off as any airline that wants you just for your shiny shoes should ****** off. I Agree that people should be punctual and smart but let's not be anal here. WWW are you suggesting from the one post that you know that the originator was lazy etc... That is way off line and a bit bitter and cynical.

I am not suprised that someone is writing in as he does as it does get to a point where one begins to ask yourself what is the point when there are NO jobs in aviation. I know several **** hot pilots who have nothing after several years trying. Perhaps it should be the responsibility of the FTO's to vet you before accepting your money to make sure you could get a job.

Why can't everyone in this forum just accept the stories you hear and instead of slagging them off - leave them alone - the stories will be replaced soon enough!!!

This is a forum to express your happiness or displeasure- not a place to get slated or to be abused.

Why doesn't everyone grow up! :mad: :mad: :eek:

[laurie]

Getting off topic now, and the usual personal attacks creeping in re viewpoints. Let's remember the original thread was around the subject of Low Time Pilot's - What chance?

Possible explorations are How will the situation evolve? Will the cyclical nature of the industry that has been much discussed reassert itself? Where will the gaps for capable people be?

This forum is here for us to help eachother.

Regards,


Laurie

PS Can we not get rid of the :mad: icon? Every time I see it, it makes me think of three year olds having tantrums getting dragged screaming round the supermarket, their legs trailing lifelessly on the floor!

[Mister Geezer]

WWW, I would beat you hands down in a shoe pollishing contest :) :) :)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Mister Geezer - are you sure? I spent 5 years in the Air Cadets and was Sqn Drill Instructor during that time... what I don't know about bulling a pair of shoes ain't worth knowing... :)

Cricketer. Called it how I saw it.

Persoanally I don't think this forums prime purpose is to provide morale support for Wannabes. Its a role but not a primary one. If this thread influences for the better the next Wannabe to sign up to a CPL course then that is A Good Thing.

I cannot stand people moaning about how flying schools don't help them post graduation. It really gets my goat.

Before you sign up you trek around each college and compare prices and query every pound which you grudgingly hand over. You signed a training contract that did not contain any promised of career support post graduation. Then when you don't get what you haven't paid for you bitch about it!

You can have all the support you like IF you are willing to pay for it. Monthly updates on recruiting rumours. Updated lists of recruitment names and addresses. A career counsellor on the other end of the telephone to whom you can address questions. All this can be yours. For a couple of grand on top of the course price. But then of course you would have chosen the school down the road that was a couple of grand cheaper. You can't have it both ways.

Just joing Balpa for £26 and the IPA for something like £40 plus subscribe to Co-Pilot for about £80 and you have a complete comprehensive post graduate support service. Oh and of course - PPRuNe.

I don't mind criticism of schools. I welcome it. Lets hear about woeful accomodation, overcrowded classrooms, lack of aircraft availability. Crying Boo Hoo the instructors were arrogant and nobody was nice to me just does not cut the mustard. It reflects more poorly on the poster than the school in fact.

WWW

[sunnysideup]

I can just imagine WWW hitting the keys rather hard and muttering under his breath whilst the blood pressure rises.

Most of the comments rang of a very good, experienced instructor who can offer that little bit more to the "I've got £50,000 and I damn well expect an airline job before my b@!!ocks drop" brigade.

All would be professionals come out of some form of higher education having been told that they are the elite and with a "people should give me what I want or I'll scream and scream until I'm sick" attitude. God knows I've seen enough of these bum fluff types thinking the world owes them something.

However.............

At the risk of moving away from the original purpose of this thread (and putting a huge target on my chest for WWW to aim nuclear arsenal at), I've just one doubt.

"You're not a Customer, you're my student and I'm your in instructor" or words to that effect.

I seem to be constantly coming across instructor attitudes that they are just in a school to instruct and getting new students or retaining existing ones is someone elses problem. Even those that seem to get involved in other aspects of an FTO's business, bringing great experience and new perspectives to it, revert to type if times are bad.

I'm sure WWW banged out the quote in a fit of rage (understandable really) so I don't want to be seen as having a real go at you.

Just wondering, as there are a lot of Instructors looking at this thread, how you all feel about the fact that in a declining market and a low profit business, together with a lack of instructor jobs, how you all feel about the importance of treating the customer as King (even the ars@@oles like Mr Underpants) and helping out within your FTO to make it a better, busier, and more profitable for all place to be. Maybe, instructors could then get paid what they deserve and not the peanuts that the market dictates.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

No. Instructors generally stand apart from the management and the rest of the company.

Its why you always read comments about School XYZ being run by spineless coniving idiots and demons in marketing whilst the instructors were a fantastic bunch of all round good guys.

When you enter the instructor-student relationship a lot of things 'fall away'. It matters not if your are airline sponsored or self. If you are here for a module or for an entire course. It matters not whether you are a groundshool star or dunce. Rich, poor, old or young. Daddy might be Fleet Manager for Big Airways or run the local chippy. When you become my student none of that matters. You will be judged on two things. Performance and Effort.

And your Instructor will JUDGE you. You will be debriefed most frankly. Professional flying instructors will resist any pressure to filter their feedback though any kind of Customer Relations spin.

We ain't there to blow sunshine up you.

Its no use being treated with kid gloves all the way through training. When you hit the nowhere-to-hide pressure of your first type conversion course and then the 40 odd line training sectors where every finicky error is jumped upon you wil be ill prepared.

I'm not saying FI's shoud aim to be antagonistic. Far from it. I had some great fun with most of my students.

smartcol - you've gone quiet. Speak up for yourself man.

WWW

[Flypuppy]

smartcol - you've gone quiet. Speak up for yourself man.

Why should somone want to be humiliated by you again WWW? Frankly if you want to act like the bully in the playground, carry on.

Maybe I dont deserve to share the same webspace as a wunderkind like you WWW, and I am fairly certain there will be a trail of posts after this one giving you another round of applause. I said in my first posting on this thread that I am sometimes disappointed in the reactions given by people including moderators. You have illustrated my point perfectly.

I didn't come here looking for sympathy, but this thread could have been a useful source of information for what low hour pilots could do to keep themselves busy, while waiting for things to improve. Instead we get a moderator attacking someone.

I spent 5 years in the Air Cadets and was Sqn Drill Instructor during that time... what I don't know about bulling a pair of shoes ain't worth knowing...

It shows, sonny, it shows.

I wont bother posting anything further on this forum. Goodbye.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Flypuppy, don't dissapear. You've been around a long time.

I think this thread is useful to pre-training Wannabes as it illustrates the issue of attitudes to training. There is often a struggle between student as paying customer and student as apprentice.

This thread perhaps shows the differing perspectives.

Persoanally I don't actually give a stuff about smartcol and his career or his training history. As a complete stranger I am ambivalent to his plight but naturally I wish him luck.

My postings are often designed to provoke debate.

Just 'cause I am a Moderator doesn't stop people from telling me I am being a prat or shooting down my comments.

I stand by what I said though. Within the narrow limits of what I know about smartcol from his posts - he reminded me very much of students I have seen who had the wrong attitude to training and as a result did not do so well and did not enjoy the experience.

Cheers,

WWW

[G-SPOT is Back]

"I've got £50,000 and I damn well expect an airline job before my b@!!ocks drop" brigade.

Luvit........ :D


Mr Smartcol

Please feel free to read much much more into the following statement:

There are some students for which you round the airborne time down and there are some students for which you round it up.

Ask yourself into which bracket you fall.

An instructors job is to breif - fly - debreif - record.

You can work to the above or you can try to give added value and better value for money. It depends on the students attitude.

[sunnysideup]

WWW.

You certainly do have a way with words!! If you're gonna provoke debate like that you will upset a few people at the same time, especially the "Coniving idiot" who gave you your instructors job (and has to run one of the most difficult types of business there is to be in) but that debate should be perhaps for another thread in another forum.

Personally, I'm all for it. With the recent notice to stop the liablous attacks naming individuals and companies, good debating is back in vogue and long may it continue. I'm starting to enjoy pprune again.

I always had instructors with loud mouths and shiny shoes, who call a spade a shovel and don't mince words. I think I'm a better pilot now for it.

So as far as the student goes, at any level, a reality check if painful to take is still a useful thing to get.

I don't think a debrief after an awful flight is the place for customer spin and you're attitude in that respect is IMHO quite right. All I'm saying is that I did detect a little "holyer than thou" from you which borders on the same kind of "I want an airline job and you damn well better help me for nothing" approach that you have been firing at.

I hope that your last post shows people that you're use of the written language isn't a true reflection of your attitute to those who pay you and those you teach. As long as we all understand that, especially the instigator of this thread, then lets keep it going.

Perhaps the new boy was just trying to get you to bite or perhaps thats a genuine attitude. Either way, I hope he doesn't disappear from these pages and that he gives as good as he gets.

I'll follow this one with interest...................

[scroggs]

Right.

Every last one of you is a conniving, ungrateful, spineless, scruffy, unpolished, spoiled, argumentative GIT! And what's more, you're now poor! As you now can't afford to bribe us enough to tell you you're a wonderful pilot and your mother loves you really, and we therefore can't afford to bribe the airline beancounters enough to employ you (and, believe me, it takes a lot of money to do that), I think you should all sod off and become plumbers.

I think my friend WWW might have a training deal that would interest you......... Oh, by the way - he might not give you any help looking for a job afterwards.

Just thought I'd let you know. ;)

[lonerider]

WWW wants to become a plumber anyway. He could earn more money that way and even have his own van!! Can I have his job then:D :D

[BEagle]

Judging by the state of some of the scruffy looking folk one sees at airports these days in pilot's uniforms, sartorial standards do not feature very highly in some airlines.....

But is it really too much to expect a trainee to look reasonably smart during training? Or do some think that slouching around looking scruffier than many a bus driver is adequate?

'Bulled' shoes are an irrelevance; being an ambassador for your airline certainly isn't!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Actually now there's a thought. I know large numbers of people looking for work with the pressure of big debts... If I can be the middle man supplying them with a basic Plumbers course... I could have a fleet of franchise plumbers... gasp!

WWW

[Joe Bolt]

My Dad was a plumber (and gas fitter).

He made a lot more money in his line of work than I'm making in mine.

I guess it is partly because (like for undertakers) there is always a constant supply of work, no matter what the world economic or security cimate is.

[foghorn]

Hey do you know how much emergency plumbers charge in London? £75 ph plus parts plus VAT, more outside office hours.

Plus you get to drive a white van!

Maybe it's not as crazy a suggestion as you think.....;) ;)

[Ivan Ivanovich]

Marketing may be customer oriented; they accept the applicant's money in exchange for insincere promises of success and employment opportunities. The instructor is the individual tasked with helping the hapless wannabe achieve this success. Yes of course, if they could achieve this by approaching the wannabe as a customer first, student second then great. But lamentably some of the wannabe pilots are unlikely to make the grade, either from a competency point of view or character view point. Being customer focused rather than studnet led is, in this case, perhaps not going to do the wannabe any favours.

However I think as instructors we need to remember always that every student is a customer, and hard as it might be, do everything we can to help them achieve their aim, even when they don't. But that's what professionalism is all about. Right?

[Splat]

Talking of plumbers, I'll spare you the details, but I had cause to run a credit check on a gentleman who's trade was 'plumber'. His declared earnings where fractionally short of 60K. I dread to think what they would be including the undeclared amounts...

S

[Crash Barrier]

:cool: Smartcol (little timmy), I don't understand. I thought with a shiny new JAA EUROPEAN LICENCE, you would be able to work anywhere on the continent (if you speaka da lingo!) and OF COURSE it is a SUPERIOR licence. Will C U on the latin america forum advertising your services no doubt!:p :p

[smartcol]

pull your seat closer to the desk welshman and keep pressing the buttons, after all your the one with your feet firmly on the ground..... you,ll see me waving from 35,000ft

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

smarcol - I do not know what you know of me. I do not understand your last post.

Wave from 35,000ft is you want.

I will wave back.

WWW

[slim_slag]

smartcol,

You shouldn't let people provoke you into responding on these boards. Your first post was very reasonable, and as you found out, people are not always reasonable in return. Such is life on a bulletin board.

I guess you are still a young lad/lass. You have now joined the real world, the 'school of hard knocks', 'university of life', 'lifes a b1tchh and then you die' are all phrases you will hear bandied around. It's a pity, but nobody does owe you anything, and you have come across more mature people who have probably found that out themselves, but now think they are hot shots, and have forgotten about it. Coming out of pilot school with your hard earned qualifications, into a slowdown, you are no different from any other lad coming out of university who are now not getting the job they thought they would when they started. Don't worry, things will pick up, and before too long you will have the job you dream of. Ignore the people here who will knock you down, that's also just part of life. You persevere, be flexible, believe in yourself and you will do fine.

Another phrase you might hear out there in the 'real world' - "Don't let the b@stards get you down" - keep that in mind too!

Best of luck.

[B412]

I don't quite know where this thread has gone. I thought the idea was "Can I please have some constructive advice now that I have finished my license but the jobs have dried up?". Now despite the first post on the site regarding what is/ and is not allowed in this forum, we have a slanging match moving between whether or not students are customers or poor sods to be given a hard time by professional FI's with approximately 150 more hours than the student, and the merits of plumbing for a career.

I have been a professional pilot for 20 years, my post of last week referred to combing the countryside and indeed the continents in search of the few jobs that there are, did not seem to make a dent in this discussion. I still believe that now is the time whilst things are down to keep gaining hours and experience. Some of the more positive posts prove my point and it does appear that there is work out there, if you move many stones and search everywhere.

The comments re the OATS fellas who turned down a GA job whilst waiting for the call from the airlines is possibly an underlying attitude in the recently graduated pilot community. Guys it just doesn't always work that way.

Doing an instructors course in a climate where there are minimal FI jobs available still achieves more hours in the logbook,which makes you more attractive to the few positions that are available. That extra time makes you more appealing to the 'work for free' areas such as towing gliders or dropping parachutists. It similarly is a feather in the cap for future employment opportunities that may come up later on.

The FI skill also gives you another credit when looking for O/S opportunities. There seem to be many opportunities in the US if you check out some of the US forums, particularly for QFI's with some reasonable incentive schemes.

So guys hang off the slanging, be professional and see if you can suggest ways in which to keep moving whilst the area we chose to work is running slowly.

And so to invite criticism I find it incredible to believe the way students in general are treated by the Uk training system. Flying is supposed to be fun. Parting with thousands of pounds never is. Hence when the flying is not fun and the cash is going down, where is the future of the training industry? Instructors are not marketers, but there seems to be a CRM issue here which may be being missed also. Wearing the clothes doesn't necessarily make you a good pole man or a future aviation professional. It takes a bit more. If the fun is not there in Aviation training why bother? The industry is painful enough when you are in it.

[sunnysideup]

B412, yeah, you're right, this does seem to have gone off the point a little. As Smartcol is still checking replies, its good to see a little common sense and a few words of sound advice.

However, the space aportioned to the debate of "customer or student" is worth getting into.

It has always seemed to me that the "usual route" for a budding ATPL is to do an FI course and get a few hours under their belt. WWWs comments on that are one insight to life as an instructor, which most professional pilots seem to do for a while, so I think even from Smartcols point of view it has to be a useful discussion.

Its also a good back up plan. One of my colleagues did the whole BA sponsered Oxford thing only to get dumped after a line check. The FI route was then available as a good back up plan. Having let his shoes get a bit scruffy and really getting into stick and rudder flying, he is enjoying it now. Its not just marking time to the next airline call. (Although more money would be a bonus, I suppose),

The perception of the customer by instructors as well as their attitude to business owners is cause for some concern. Whilst I believe that the student gets nothing out of being constantly congratulated, the relationship between instructor and Owner is not always pretty, in fact sometimes its taken as read to be a bad one. This was my initial query with WWW. My concern is that the wider the "us and them" attitude gets, the further away we get from everyone involved in training making a decent living. FTO's and the industry are too small to afford give birth to the next Arther Scargill.

The marketing Demons are just as bad in some cases. I've never lost a customer by telling them the truth about the industry they want to get into. In fact, from a marketing point of view, its known as a fresh approach and the guy who has something different to offer always gets a good slice of the cake. Maybe we should all sing from the same hymn book.

Most instructors I know would say "Yeah, I am a career instructor, I love it, but I have to go to the airlines to pay back £35,000 of debt".

At the end of the day, Smartcol, getting paid anything to fly is better than paying for your flying when you're not humping parcels from one side of a warehouse or another, or flipping burgers for £4.20 per hour.

My Brother is a plumber. I never recall him at age seven saying "When I grow up, I want to fix blocked toilets" whilst staring dreamily up at the fluffy white things.

:rolleyes:

[redsnail]

Yeah, it's a hard old road that.
Been there, actually there again.
You just have to make your own luck.

A suggestion for those who always advocate a uni degree as a fall back. Think about getting some aircraft mechanic (LAME) qualifications. New engineers are as scarce as hen's teeth. An engineer is rarely out of work, in the industry and can transport his/her skills to other countries.

[FRIDAY]

Well looking back through the posts it seemes to me smartcol you would have been better posting in "Questions" for a more senior understanding of the situation. Anyway just to clear my thoughts flypuppy just why you decided to whinge to me about your situation I will never know, I think you took my comments up wrong but what can u do.
As with posters from all various types of situations and experiences we will always get mixed opinion's, its up to the individual to sift throught the crap. However I do like a heated discussion and at times do try and provoke one "I confess" but sure it shows for a good luck at peoples attitudes which can only stand to benefit you when you have dealings with these feckers face to face.
Anyway I thouroughly enjoyed this thread, thanks muppets for the entertainment :D , and WWW jeez your a dark horse but none then less I appreciate your reality punches.
Now for christ sake please don't slag me off I am fragile cargo.:p

[drekhen]

Am in similair position to flypuppy. Decided to stop after GFT having passed ground exams and will pick up on the IR later. Am considering the instructer route for ad hoc part time work.
Have the additional disadantages of mortgage(large), school fees and wife who has not worked for nine months who used to earn more than me when working full time.
But bit by bit I will get there (though dont know where)
Like flying too much to stop

[skysheriff]

the story of smartcol is a warning for other wannabes. the JAR frozen ATPL is just a scam with no job in sight at end of training.
this kind of money would be better spent as a share in an airplane, in Vegas or whatever

[Flintstone]

It's been a long time since I looked in on Wannabees and now I wish I hadn't bothered.

I didn't read smartcols original post as a 'world owes me a living' type of thing. More a 'I'm having a bad day' one. We all had them at that stage in our careers and I'm sure most of still do from time to time. Why some people felt the need to attack smartcol so viciously I don't understand.

Most disappointing of all was WWW's response. How easy to be smug from ones ivory tower. I would have expected better from a moderator. If you want to act in this way I would suggest you do the obvious, set up another username and go from there.

As for condoning working for nothing......that's low.

If you had an ounce of decency in you WWW you'd apologise.

Jeez, this place is going downhill.

<Not edited for spelling>

[Crash Barrier]

:cool: Smartcol, "Biiiiiiiig Mac and fries please !!!";)

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Flintstone, you are entitled to your opinion as am I. I am not being smug - I would have posted that post if I were still working as a FI instead of an FO.

I am wearing my FI hat on this thread.

WWW

[B412]

Then take the hat off mate, it doesn't seem to fit.

[Flintstone]

WWW

The tone and language in your posts says it all. Let's just review a few of the more choice phrases.

"You sound like a complete pain in the arse..."
"I've seen the likes of you..."
"He just didn't get it and perhaps you don't either..."
"I DEMAND that my students..."
"Frankly, I don't give a damn..."
"You are my STUDENT. I am your INSTRUCTOR..."
"...you sound like the course whinger..."
"Buy a mirror pal..."
"Why did you make a mess of some exams? ...were you in the social club most nights?"
"Says a 22yr old wonder kid with very little knowledge of the ways of the world..."
"Son..."
"You can ponce about..."
"...if there is any justice they will get jobs ahead of you..."
"Son..." (again)

You criticise other contributors for making assumptions about you and then commit the same faux pas with the '22 yr old wonder kid' remark. You have no idea what smartcol does or doesn't know about the world and neither do I.

These quotes speak volumes. If you can read these and still refuse smartcol an apology you only serve to compound the rudeness and arrogance you have so far demonstrated toward someone who just needed a bit of a morale boost.

I expected better from a moderator.

<Still not edited for spelling>

[Grivation]

Whether you lean towards or away from the arguments put forward by various posters on this topic really doesn't matter. There have been some views and concerns aired which are of importance to the pilot in training or the prospective pilot in training. The more views that get aired the more informed we all become.

I don't believe that posters should need to censor their posts to avoid offending other posters when they are meerly expressing an opinion. Certainly no one should have to apologise for stating an opinion.

[Flintstone]

Grivation

I am not talking about opinions. It is the manner in which WWW puts his across that cause offence.

I've been around here long enough to remember when he was looking for a job. He got one, I believe, largely due to contacts made through this forum and it is this that makes his attitude toward smartcol all the harder to accept.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

This thread usefully illuminates the dangers involved in Integrated students moaning about their schools and their lack of a job.

Their moans may be valid - who knows. But for every sympathetic ear there is at least another that is quietly thinking dark thoughts about the moaner.

All that got my goat was this ex-student complaining that his arrogant ex-RAF instructors picked on him for not shaving/ironing/haircut etc. He then asserted that he would be sticking two fingers up at his FTO.

Now I have seen and had students JUST like this. They cannot reconcile spending £50,000 without being treated like someone who has just bought a Mercedes. They often blame everyone but themselves for their own shortcomings. They are usually regarded as the course whinger behind their backs.

Instructors think them to be as I so movingly put it - a pain in the arse.

Hence I adopted the hectoring tone that I did.

I am a pretty chilled instructor to 99% of students. If you can't have at least a couple of giggles during a flight then I consider that a failure.

Flintstone - I have been a breathless Wannabe, a Knowledgable Wannabe, a Self Improving Wannabe, A PPL Instructor, A IR Instructor, an airline FO during the past 5 years of PPRuNe'ing. As my experiences have evolved so have my opinions. Some who have read the longest have the biggest problem with this. I have ALWAYS had a very individual style and tone to my posts which did not change when I became Moderator.

This forum would be very dull if it were crammed full of nothing but back slapping words of encouragement from fellow Wannabes and a perrenial questions about BA cadet recruitment plans...

Cheers

WWW

[slim_slag]

Every village needs an idiot as does every message board, it would be so much more boring without them :D

As Capt PPRune says

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this but if you cannot argue a point without resorting to personal attacks and abuse then don't bother posting because all you will be doing is increasing workload of the moderators, admins and myself which will eventually lead to a banning and a deletion of your handywork.

By descending into personal abuse you have lost the argument and taken the bait. It takes a mature and intelligent person to be able to just ignore a comment they don't like and by doing so, do more to show that the original comment that caused the anger is indeed just a reflection of the posters ignorance in the first place

And scroggs goes on to say

Your posts will be deleted, and you may face a ban from the site. The same applies if you let your temper get the better of you and post potentially libellous, or in any other way offensive, information about any individual or organisation

So who moderates the moderators???

Anyway, nobody has the right to an opinion on a private bulletin board.

Smartcol (and any other interested wannabes who are legitimately worried about paying back all that cash). I was out boozing last night with a furloughed FO from a major US airline. He has just been recalled, and I asked him when he thought the airline would be hiring new people from the regionals. He said 12 months. So anecdotally that is how long you might expect to wait for the conveyor belt to start running again, if you worked in the US. You need to get the same info for the UK. A shame nobody on this thread who knows a lot more than I do about the UK market has bothered to be nice to you and give you their "off the record" best guess.

[Stu Bigzorst]

WWW slagging.

I, for one, have found the diminutive Welshman's posts to be both useful and accurate over the last three years. In fact, it was about three years ago that he responded in a very balanced fashion to a "should I give it all up" kind of question that now has me in the right hand seat of a turbo prop.

Furthermore, having been through Oxford, I easily recognise the student types that www is describing.

What I feel may have gone wrong here is something that most internet users should by now recognise:

1. It is human nature to very quickly judge or categorise a person within a few seconds of a first encounter.

2. Many people have poor writing skills, and as such portray ideas, character or inflexions that were not intended.

We then apply 1. to incorrectly judge based on 2. And so it goes downhill. Being aware of these two traits will help avoid this kind of argument - weeding out core facts and ignoring your "feelings" works well. Pilots should be good at this.

I notice that things got bad so quickly that my comment to smartcol on page 2 that I managed to get a job this April (with less than 200 hours in my book) went without comment. I don't know many low hour pilots who have got proper jobs since September, but I hoped I could offer some advice that actually worked for me (and I have heard lots of "advice" that was less than useless). Smartcol - if it's in you, you'll get there.

So, in the words of a certain Mr Enfield.. "Calm down!"

Stu

PS I was the student who always turned up early, learned hard, flew Sundays but (when appropriate) had a laugh and took the ****, mostly out of my instructor of course...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

stu - congrats on your well deserved success. Email me a debrief - I would be interested.

slim_slag thanks for the info. I will admonish myslef shortly ;)

WWW

[FRIDAY]

Well I am going to say sorry to smartcol and flypuppy, I may have seemed harsh with my remarks I am not sure, there was certainly no malice intended. But I still do believe discussions whether positive or negative are of a constructive nature to any wannabe.
Good luck all.

[Crash Barrier]

:p WWW quote, ' I have seen and HAD ! students like this !':p
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: OOeer missus!:rolleyes:

[smartcol]

Well, after my original posting, I have to say that I am no further forward, it is true as some have said that I was having one of those when is this going to happen days, as we all do, when I wrote the post, and I do admit to putting down all my moans.

It is common nature for someone not to blame themselves for the situation, you are always looking to blame others, that is the way of life, if you can put your hand up and say it was your fault or that you havent done enough, then you will never be the person you could be.

I think the responses I received from some were very unfair, and the fact that it ended up almost in a slagging match between some parties, shows me that they are not worth considering.

I think that having done my training and feeling a little despondant, and really letting it out on this forum and asking for advice really, I should not have received the mauling which came my way.

I now obviously know a lot more about myself, a pain in the arse, a no-hoper, a whinger the list goes on, had I only known before I wouldnt have become a pilot. Clearly I had failed to realise that I was not allowed an opnion and I was not allowed to be human and let things get to me, how disgraceful of me.

I thank all those who saw through what was saying and realised that they too had felt that way sometime in their life, and all those who gave advice, it has been taken on board (pardon the pun)

I am looking into avaition everyday and hopefully like all others in my position there is hope for low hour pilots, even if it be on the ground originally.

Now where did I put that mirror, wonderkid ... that's me ...

Col

[gorky]

you bought a license, what do you except now...?
buy now a block time of cessna 150 and log time.
and buy the way, buy a type rating on the B737,200,300,500,NG.
and do not forget the 500h on the type.
Welcome in the real world!

[whisperbrick]

Come on guys,

Who hasn't turned up to fly and thought "******,should have given these a poilish"

Smartcol, what i think the gist of this is that in commercial flying there is no room for much individuality, its called a uniform for just that reason and more importantly is that the image you are trying to portray of your professionalism (feel the nervous pax eyes follow you across the concourse) and also as a frontline ambassador for your company.
Also i wouldn't have wanted to rub my commercial instructors up the wrong way:You will come to find that there is but one important thing in aviation:CONTACTS,
and these folks are often the people to know who could recommend you.
You can be a excellent pilot,first time passes blah,blah but without these you are sunk and on the flip side you can be an average stickman but with contacts you will go far.

I can understand full well your despair: I did the ATPL exams in 94 and managed to pass them all first time, I was utterly elated, over the moon. Three months later i ran into a brickwall at high speed.....couldn't get a job: I didn't feel that I was owed a job but surely all the sweat in the air, the mental torture on the ground, all those beautiful summer days stuck inside rereading CPL Nav and trying to fathom a laser ring gyro, surely this was worth something.....

1995 was a year outside flying: a hard year and to all intents and purposes I am told I was rather an unpleasant human being that year: several of my colleagues turned to prozac that year (I jest not).But we all made it and hopefully you will too....


www....I can see where you are going, but it's very hard to get an impression of an individuals tone or real personality through a posting:bit harsh i feel old boy .

[scroggs]

If this thread does anything useful, it reminds us how close to the surface are the feelings of those in the precarious position of looking for a job just now. That's not just those with 200 hours, incidentally; there are many out there with ten or twenty times that much who are as busily writing CVs as you guys.

The problem is, while we can all understand and sympathise, there isn't much advice we can give that hasn't been given here many times. That's usually something along the lines of 'keep the faith, keep current (especially IR), keep networking, and something will hopefully turn up'. It can't be much more specific than that, as we usually don't know the detail of your individual circumstances. We don't really subscribe to the tea and sympathy approach, as we're not social workers, and we're not going to tell anyone that it's all going to be OK if that's not what we believe.

However, I am a little surprised at how readily we've all jumped down each others' throats! Even my little attempt at humour a week or so ago was met with a sarcastic reply! Chill, people, we are all on the same side... I think.

Anyway, a little bit of good news which might indicate that things are genuinely on the mend. At Virgin we have now reinstated all those pilots who were under notice of redundancy. Those who have already left are being asked to consider returning (although they may well be ensconced somewhere else by now), and our Chief Pilot has suggested that it can't be too long before we have to look again at recruiting in the open market. Before you rush me, no, we won't be taking any fATPLs of any kind! But it's reasonably hard evidence that the worst is now behind us, and that will have inevitable repercussions all the way through the employment chain.

[Flintstone]

smartcol

Sense of humour restored I see. Well done.

Nil carborundum etc etc

[purr]

luck counts:rolleyes:

[homerj]

smartcol,nobody said it was going to be easy .stop whining and get in line like the rest of us.

i gotta start reading the dates on the last posts!!!:confused:

[Avenger]

FR have upped the anti for holding pool selection to 1000hrs on JAR 25 type or equivalent.. Why... well partly because a lot of the low hours people were taking too long to line check out, they were miles behind the aircraft and in fairness felt under pressure.

Rapidly expanding companies don't have excess capacity for line training and any way of cutting this down is looked at.
There is always movement right to left and this does create vacancies, although,herein lies another problem, not enough experienced skippers and line trainers.

There are'nt that many people working on the feeder types with these sort of hours that want to move, why, because their own companies have progression from TP to Jet and they don't want to lose a position in the seniority list.. in round terms money and prospects.

At the low hours end there are a lot of people available, hence all these pre-selection deals, but, if it gets you a job, at least your'e working.

A whole bunch of Aerlingus pool guys went over to easyJet on the basis some could be recalled if needed, so there must be a demand but the airlines don't seem to have the time to go through the CVs and the due process so they use any outside help or options they can get.

There's been a lot of ventillation of the self typing issues, morality etc, however, you have to accept that this is fast becoming a pre-selection criteria, rightly or wrongly; and in essence, the system of self-typing with a caveat, that if you don't screw up, you will be employed, is creating a precedent for others to follow..

Back to the numbers game, again! If you are about to spend 15K on a type rating, it might as well be a jet.. Right? well not really. Simply because the number of jet vacancies for low hours guys means the competition is too great, not only are you competing with other like minded self-typers, you are up against the airline sponsored people as well.

On the other hand, guys willing to OFFER to self type on a turbo fleet, may just get the upper hand on someone with more hours as the margins and training budgets in the smaller operations tend to be less.

I am aware of at least three heavy TP outfits in the UK that are using agency staff, this isn't cost effective, but shows the lack of available people in these markets. OK this may be seasonal, but once your'e in you can look around and get a feel for what's really going on

Bottom line is, you make your own luck, if your'e working anywhere near an airplane, it's experience, money and networking, and in the end it's contacts that get you ahead in the number game.

[Andy_R]

AS THIS THREAD HAS EMERGED AGAIN
smartcol are you still out there??
What have you been doing with yourself over the past 5 months?
Have you managed to prove WWW wrong?

Just curious...............

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I promise to be gentler this time smartcol... ;)

WWW

[piperindian]

guys like smartcol have been abused by the JAA system.
Wannabes must once for all learn that a JAA fATPL is worse than an average lottery ticket : with an average lottery the chance of getting back your investment is 40%.
In the current times, with a JAA fATPL your chance of getting a job is below 10%.
enough said. :rolleyes:



"The State, in choosing men to serve it, takes no notice of their opinions. If they be willing faithfully to serve it, that satisfies. "
Cromwell

[misterbonkers]

PMA

POSITIVE

MENTAL

ATTITUDE

it's hard but we all get there. There are jobs, but to get them you've got to get to know folk. Spend time at a busy flying club, helping out, grafting, talking, learning.

You get there, it takes time, but they say; time to spare, go by air.

[jocko0102]

I have read many posts from people about how they are pissed off they dont have or cant get a job or the schools did this that and the next bla bla bla.
It is astounding how many starry eyed, immature people there are out there.Life is hard and you need to have an edge to get through it no matter what you do so if you pay to get your licence be prepared to have hard times as well as good and be a man about it.I think there are a lot of rich daddies or stupid bank managers out there helping bank role some real tossers so please if you dont have a job yet then bide your time and show some gusto and resourcefulness until you do.

[faacfi]

mr Joke, not everybody is rich like you say or have a daddy working in a bank.some guys work hard to get their hours and licenses. so, dont put everybody in the same basket. thank you!:eek: