Question regarding Check outs

[Wolvesflyer]

When getting checked out on an aircraft are the hours logged as Pilot In Command hours or do they have to be logged as Pilot Under Tuition hours...?

[PURPLE PITOT]

It depends entirely upon what the "check out" is for, and who is performing it.

[loaded as a dice]

When getting checked out on an aircraft are the hours logged as Pilot In Command hours or do they have to be logged as Pilot Under Tuition hours...?

If it's a profiency check by an instructor, it's logged as PUT

[mrmum]

If it's a "proficiency check" then it will be being conducted by a flight examiner. If successful it will be PICUS, if not then PU/T.
As PP said, who logs what on a "check out" depends on the exact circumstances of the flight, which can vary considerably.
Wolves flyer, if you can be a bit more specific, you'll get a better answer. What are the licence, rating, medical, currency of the people involved? Is it a club or group aircraft? Why is it being done?

[Radix]

...........

[Wolvesflyer]

Basically being checked out on a Warrior at local flying school

[mrmum]

Ok, I'll assume you're in the UK Wolverhampton, so that leaves us with a couple of scenarios;

If you've not flown the Warrior before, but have a current and valid medical, licence and SEP(L) class rating. You're going up with an instructor to learn the specifics of a Warrior, compared to what you've flown before. You could probably legally be PIC, but common practice, club rules and insurance mean you are having a check-out. I would say you would almost always log this as PU/T and the instructor as PIC.


You have previous experience on the Warrior, have a current and valid medical, licence and SEP(L) class rating. You have however not flown sufficiently or recently enough to meet club or insurance requirements. This one is a bit more debatable, however in a flying club environment, typically expect to log it as PU/T and the instructor log it as PIC. Personally I do sometimes let the "checkee" log these flights as PIC, if I do nothing other than observe they are still safe and competent, if I intervene at all the it's PU/T. For this to happen they have to have the 3 landings in previous 90 days of course, so I can be a passenger rather than an instructor.

[TheiC]

mrmum, do you agree that beforehand? That is, do you embark on the flight having told the 'student' that he is in command if the aircraft?

[Genghis the Engineer]

You ALWAYS make sure that everybody knows who is Captain, and who is just a passenger (or a student) before any flight. This is absolutely not something to sort out afterwards, whatever sort of flying.

G

[fujii]

Just ask the instructor like people did twenty years ago. It's part of what you're paying for.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Just ask the instructor like people did twenty years ago. It's part of what you're paying for.
Depends whether you want the right answer or not. I've had instructors tell me off for logging such flights as Pu/t because I "should have logged it as P1/S".

[Talkdownman]

Personally I do sometimes let the "checkee" log these flights as PIC, if I do nothing other than observe they are still safe and competent
A 'checker' might not even be a licensed pilot, in which case there is no option. For example, in the case of a privately-owned aircraft 'the checker' could simply be the owner (or his/her representative) ensuring that a fully licensed, rated and current 'checkee' is safe and competent to use his/her aircraft. The owner is the final arbiter, and there might be no licensing requirement for the 'the checker' to be an FI or, indeed, a current licensed pilot for that matter, eg. 'the checker' could be without medical.

Regardless, establish who is PIC beforehand.

And, anyway, define 'check out'...

[9 lives]

Refer to the national regulations for solo flight in that class of aircraft (irrespective of "club" or owner's rules). Do you meet the requirements of your license for solo flight? If so, you should log that flight as PIC. If you take along an instructor or other pilot for a proficiency check, which would not be required by the national authority to validate your license, they don't have reason to be PIC, unless you ask them to, and I cannot imagine why you would. That pilot may simply be filling a role to restart you currency or recency, which are nearly always associated with passenger carrying privileges.

If your license would not permit the intended flight as a solo flight, you'll need to take along a PIC who is rated for that aircraft.

If the purpose of the flight is to renew your recency for acting PIC in that type, which you had previously held, I cannot imagine why an instructor or check pilot would suggest that you were not PIC for that flight! It is that skill they are evaluating!

It is likely that an insurance company would like a "check flight" of a not recent pilot. The insurance company does not care how you log the time, as long as you do, so default to PIC, unless you were not entitled to fly that flight by the terms of your license.

If you prior agreement as to crew duties results in the instructor telling you that they will act as PIC for the dual flight, I would ask them why. You certainly pay them for their time with you, but if you have earned the privilege of flying in PIC in that type, and that privilege is valid, you should be recording the aircraft time you're paying for as PIC.

[Big Pistons Forever]

If you want me to do a "check out" of any type than I, for the purpose of responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight, am PIC. The deal is if at any time I say "I have control" you take immediately take your hands and feet of the controls and be silent.

If you are not happy with this than I have no problem with that, however I will not fly with you and will suggest some one else who you might ask.

The aircraft log book will reflect the fact that I was PIC. I frankly don't care what you put in your log book.

As Genghis said it is absolutely vital that there is a clear delineation of responsibilities before you go flying

[Chuck Ellsworth]

The deal is if at any time I say "I have control" you take immediately take your hands and feet of the controls and be silent.

And be silent?

Why?

[Pilot DAR]

The OP refers to a "check out". Perhaps this is "training" in a new type, with differences, in which the instructor has a role as an instructor, and should fly as such.

Or, it might be a few circuits in a an aircraft, within that pilots skills and privileges, just to assure competence for any number of reasons. On the occasions that I have flown a few circuits, or to the next airport for lunch, I'm happy to say as little as I can, unless asked, or have a safety concern. To me, the knowledge that the candidate is acting as PIC for that flight, will reinforce to them their role as PIC. I don't need to be PIC for that flight, they can do it, they should do it. If they do not meet the expectation, we'll talk as required, and if I have to fly (to assure safety), I will. Otherwise, I am a safety system, not an aircraft commander for that flight.

[Big Pistons Forever]

And be silent?

Why?

Because we are not going to have an argument about why/how I should take control. As soon as the aircraft is in a safe configuration and place we will have a discussion about what happened and where to go from there.

I won't be taking over on a whim. it will because something bad is about to happen/has happened.

I had a bad experience with a check out early in my instructor career. A guy bought a tailwheel aircraft and wanted a check out on the machine. He said he had lots of tailwheel time on type but no recent experience. so the insurance company wanted a checkout. A landing was going bad and so I said "I have control" the aircraft owner responded with "No No I have got it !" and starting fighting my control inputs. We were very fortunate that the aircraft remained on the runway.

After that I vowed that there would be absolute clarity on who did what on these kinds of flights.

[9 lives]

After that I vowed that there would be absolute clarity on who did what on these kinds of flights.

Absolutely agreed. I too have had bad experiences, because I was shy to instantly and completely take over for fear of hurting feelings. Several times I waited too late, and too much extra effort was required to fix it. After that, I feared being the more experienced pilot in the accident, than hurting feelings.

Now, it's a thorough preflight briefing as to who will do what, and if I have decided to takeover, I will be the only one controlling the aircraft until further discussion.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

If you want me to do a "check out" of any type than I, for the purpose of responsibility for the safe conduct of the flight, am PIC. The deal is if at any time I say "I have control" you take immediately take your hands and feet of the controls and be silent.


When I read this I was curious about the remain silent requirement as it never occurred to me to demand silence from a client if they wanted to ask something....but we all have our own ideas about how to teach and we all have the right to explain our requirements before flight.


If you are not happy with this than I have no problem with that, however I will not fly with you and will suggest some one else who you might ask.

That is fair, do many refuse to fly with you?

[Big Pistons Forever]

That is fair, do many refuse to fly with you?

Happens occasionally. I am pretty well known in my area with a reputation for being a fair but very demanding instructor. This tends to keep the problem pilots from asking for my help in the first place.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The OP refers to a "check out". Perhaps this is "training" in a new type, with differences, in which the instructor has a role as an instructor, and should fly as such.

Or, it might be a few circuits in a an aircraft, within that pilots skills and privileges, just to assure competence for any number of reasons. On the occasions that I have flown a few circuits, or to the next airport for lunch, I'm happy to say as little as I can, unless asked, or have a safety concern. To me, the knowledge that the candidate is acting as PIC for that flight, will reinforce to them their role as PIC. I don't need to be PIC for that flight, they can do it, they should do it. If they do not meet the expectation, we'll talk as required, and if I have to fly (to assure safety), I will. Otherwise, I am a safety system, not an aircraft commander for that flight.

What you are describing is, from the point of view of the other pilot, like IMC in a simulator. You do all the same things as if you were flying a real airplane in real cloud, but at the back of your mind you always know if things go bad you can hit the pause button.

Similarly the guy you are flying a few circuits, or to the next airport, knows that you are not going to let something bad happen. This is IMO is pretend PIC, it is not the kind of PIC you get when you are alone and there is no one to bail you out. So why not call it what it is, instruction ?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Similarly the guy you are flying a few circuits, or to the next airport, knows that you are not going to let something bad happen. This is IMO is pretend PIC, it is not the kind of PIC you get when you are alone and there is no one to bail you out.
That is absoulutely right. There is, for example, nothing like being in cloud for the first time on your own. Which is after you've got a qualification saying you're perfectly competent at flying in clouds ... which qualification you have earned via a training course which contains exactly zero seconds of being in real cloud on your own.

[mrmum]

mrmum, do you agree that beforehand? That is, do you embark on the flight having told the 'student' that he is in command if the aircraft?

Yes, I do. I know this can be a bit contentious. I don't do it very often, I'm selective who I do this with and have to be pretty sure that they are going to fly safely. However, I accept that there's a risk they might not, then I feel the need to do something, but they are PIC and I'm just pax. Hasn't happened yet, but could be a proper can of worms.

[flyinkiwi]

I had a bad experience with a check out early in my instructor career. A guy bought a tailwheel aircraft and wanted a check out on the machine. He said he had lots of tailwheel time on type but no recent experience. so the insurance company wanted a checkout. A landing was going bad and so I said "I have control" the aircraft owner responded with "No No I have got it !" and starting fighting my control inputs. We were very fortunate that the aircraft remained on the runway.

After that I vowed that there would be absolute clarity on who did what on these kinds of flights.

This reminds me of a humourous version of this sad tale. Two of the clubs instructors were flying a SuperCub in the local circuit. After a rather bumpy landing the one in the back said, "that landing was a bit rough," to which the guy in front replied, "I thought you were flying!"