non-Pilot DFO and non-Pilot GMA

[triplesevencommuter]

I thought HKCAD only signed off on having a non-pilot DFO on the condition that at least one person out of DFO and GMA was a pilot?

[kenfoggo]

Nope. Seems as if it is ok with the regulator if these two positions can both be occupied by persons who have never signed for an aircraft and accepted responsibility for the safety of 300 to 400 people. I am sure that both the incumbents have a full working knowledge of all the technical aspects and stresses that being a pilot entails.

[Silent Running]

Years of overseeing cabin service is clearly the qualification required these days to administer things at the pointy end....

[iflylow]

Who really gives a crap.

But if you do, it's better having a non-pilot as at least it's not a former colleague selling himself and his buddies out, all for the almighty dollar.

Just like that quote from the movie Wall Street:

"The problem with money, Bud, is that it makes you do things you don't want to do."

[kenfoggo]

iflylow- Its probably a character flaw, but actually I find that I DO give a crap.

[BillytheKid]

We hire people to be cadet SO's that aren't pilots, why should our DFO and GMA be any different?

[CPA777]

We hire people to be cadet SO's that aren't pilots, why should our DFO and GMA be any different?

Remember you started from nothing as well.

[main_dog]

Remember you started from nothing as well.


Probably not in an airline, he didn't...

[Trafalgar]

touche'....

[Anotherday]

Sadly if we laid off all the S/Os we've hired over the past 5 years I'd say only about 10% would continue in aviation via Air Force/instructing/freight or something else GA. Most I've chatted with would go do a degree at Uni and be a doctor/accountant/lawyer etc. There really isn't any passion for this job, there's been no real sacrifice by any of them to get here apart from a couple of years in Adelaide. No need to work a couple of ****ty jobs to make ends meet and pay for your flying. No losing any mates from CFIT. Never a morning when you wake up and think "f*ck is it really worth it"
If Cathay changed tomorrow to a logistics company, sold all the aircraft and gave all of them desk jobs of some sort most would stay.
Not criticizing, but from those I fly with, that's the impression I get. Maybe that's just how things are and it's a good thing. Who knows.

[Mill Worker]

My understanding of history is that the CAD approved a particular non-pilot to be DFO. That approval was for that person only and not for the DFO position that may be taken up by others in the future. It also came with conditions such as GMA had to be a pilot.

[Steve the Pirate]

Sadly if we laid off all the S/Os we've hired over the past 5 years I'd say only about 10% would continue in aviation via Air Force/instructing/freight or something else GA. Most I've chatted with would go do a degree at Uni and be a doctor/accountant/lawyer etc. There really isn't any passion for this job

That's an alarming statistic if it's representative of the SO body as a whole. However, I wonder why the 90% of those you spoke to about their choice of profession are waiting to be laid off before following their new career path? If they feel so disenchanted with aviation surely they have the ability (and arguably the responsibility) to head off to pursue their dream career of their own volition rather than waiting to be made redundant?

In all honesty, if any of them were to leave I think they'd find that medicine/accountancy/law aren't that glamorous either and you work like a slave until you become very senior or have bought into a partnership. I doubt they'd have much passion for their new job either.

STP

[Just Do It]

"This is the result from the 'everyone gets a soccer participation trophy' environment they grew up in."

May be. I put it all down to poor parenting or lack of it. Please don't stereo type all the youngsters out there as generation Y, an equal number are a credit to their parents and a pleasure to fly with!

The others will no doubt find them selves in management, trying still for that elusive pat on the back from dad!

The youngsters I really take my hat off too are the ones that made it with a very personal story to tell. A great number of those as well.

So to those new trainers who have taken up the call to arms, well let's say I can picture the type of kid you were.

[Arfur Dent]

Elusive?:ok:

[ChinaBeached]

Medical students don't go from classroom to assisting in surgical procedures within approx. 18 months of starting at university.

Law students don't assist in murder, grand fraud, third party injury, etc trials within 18 months of their first day in a classroom.

Accountant students don't assist in balancing the books of multi million dollar assets, say for example a widebody aircraft perhaps (??) just 18 months after their first day in the classroom either.

They all serve a form of apprenticeship that will take several / many years in order to be entrusted with that responsibility.

But CX knows better. (As do other similar LCC's).

And what's worse is those Gen-Y reverse high-fifing hair-gelled legends undoubtedly believe that they are worthy of their role, despite the impact of what their undercutting of the market does either.

DFO's, GMA's, COO's, etc, etc without any such flying experience can never comprehend the real issues, stressors or facts. And like these Gen-Y legends, they don't care to know either.

[Just Do It]

Elusive?:ok:

Thank you!

[Shutterbug]

This is a thread on the pilot background of the DFO and GMA, or rather, lack of, and has quickly degenerated into another thread slagging off the new hires.

@BillytheKid

Oooooh, I dunno Bill... one is basically an apprenticeship position and the other is arguably the top aviator slot in the corporation. You think those are comparable challenges? I've never heard of a leg general take charge of the 82d Airborne Division, wake me up when it happens. Plenty of leg 2d LTs come into jump school though. Everyone seems to grasp the difference.

@Anotherday

LMAO. You make it sound like you conducted a scientifically validated double-blind survey for a peer-reviewed academic journal. It's funny too... cause the SOs I talk to have plenty of passion for the job. They're doing the best they can with a ****ty situation. CX doesn't have a fleet of twin props puddle jumping the regional islands where they can cut their teeth. And it's not exactly like Hong Kong is endowed with copious amount of free space and open skies for recreational flying. I can tick off nearly a dozen and more SOs off the top of my head I know have plowed down money on private flying lessons or to get a license or who fly off-duty in the States or Oz. Seriously... who you talking to??????

@Chinabeached

I have no clue what medical students do or don't do but I know that 1Ls go to work in legal offices assisting on major cases within months of their 1st semester in law school. But seriously... are we blaming the junior officers for creating this environment? Or are we lamenting bad parenting? I'm not quite sure where all the frustration toward the junior crew comes from. They didn't create the world they're. Arguably... their seasoned and more experienced colleagues might want to do some soul searching on that.

We all know where Swire's priorities are. And it's not the expertise and well-being of their flying professionals. That should be obvious.

[Shep69]

I think by taking the approach they are they are in genuine danger of trashing the brand. You get what you pay for. If this is the goal so be it but if not they are making some serious long term mistakes. Once one trashes out a premium brand one never gets the label back (one reason beer manufacturers don't discount premium brands to try to get greater volume--and those that have have quickly lost the premium branding).

A little paint doesn't salvage a rusted ship. While most of our goals amongst the workers are oriented toward not letting the ship rust, there are significant limitations on what we can do. If this is truly the direction then one needs to consider one's own position toward the future and where one should best be.

[RHEINHARD]

Yes one does, doesn't one ?

[crwkunt roll]

Certain things need approval from DFO.....
eg..... Flying to an airport with no Navaids......
Does she call up Cooler Box and ask what a "navaid is".....?

[iceman50]

crwkunt roll

No she calls the GMO / GMF or more likely they inform her and she signs on the dotted line!:ugh:

[Shoebox]

How did this thread turn into a cadet bashing fest? :ugh:

@Chinabeached

Apprenticeship? I personally see the time spent as a Second Officer as some sort of apprenticeship. Like medical and legal professions the amount of responsibility increases with rank.

[ChinaBeached]

Shuttlebus: I'm not quite sure where all the frustration toward the junior crew comes from. They didn't create the world they're [in].

They didn't create the mess they're in, no. But they sure as sh!t lined up and begged for it instead. So shat's worse? The bean-counter telling an adult to jump off a cliff, all the while the exact details of the results as well as those with experience warning them completely against it, but they still jump? You also mentioned bad parenting? Perhaps. Teaching someone that there's no quick 'n easy route to respect and professional success might be a start.

The frustration comes from, and from what a lot of experienced FO's, SFO's and Capts repeat on here and socially all the time, is that all too often it becomes a single pilot operation in sims or other flight events when the SO due lack of genuine experience hasn't a clue. Let's not forget the other frustrations of again what we hear a lot on this forum and other places at home regarding the constant whining about how tough it is to live on the C-Scale salary, blah, blah, blah when it's everything they asked and begged for. Or, "We'll all tell CX to shove and go to EK" (what with all those amazing P2X hours?).

Shoeebox: agreed. Just as an FO is an apprentice to the Capt, a senior VP an apprentice to the company president, and the DFO an apprentice to Gordon Gecko.... We can go on and on. But my point is that in our profession these CX C-Scale SO "apprentices" are entrusted to support and assist the PIC at the time during a 2 crew scenario, and to even act alone when the other needs to take a "physiological break". (Heaven forbid a TCAS RA event occurs??!!!!).

Whilst this has detracted from the main thread regarding the DFO and GMA position's it also highlights that non-pilots in managerial positions as such really have little to zero scope to appreciate the complexities, stressors and / or true realities of there job that they keep screwing down lower, lower and lower. Only someone completely out of touch with piloting a widebody airliner or a piece of dirt like RH would allow this kind of detraction in standards occur.

[Bangaluru]

Can someone name the last pilot DFO who was there for his troops? If I'm not mistaken it was generations ago. Let the swire managers do it, they can't be worse than recent pilot DFOs can they? Certainly, I think the incumbent is approaching it with a better attitude than we've seen for a while.

[CISTRS]

Her job is to add strength and depth to the CX senior management team. Ivan says so.

Cathay Pacific Chief Executive Ivan Chu said: “We are pleased to announce Anna Thompson’s appointment in the role of Director Flight Operations, overseeing one of the most important aspects of our airline’s operations. Her extensive experience within the airline will certainly add strength and depth to our senior management team.

“I would like to offer our sincere thanks to Captain Richard Hall for his great contribution to the airline since joining in 1988. We wish him all the best in his retirement.”

[Arfur Dent]

Mike Hardy. Gave me my 4 bars so he must've been a good bloke!!:ok:

[Shutterbug]

@Chinabeached

Thing is... I don't disagree with anything you've said. I just don't think blaming junior officers for complex structural issues that are 20 years in the making makes much sense.

[CISTRS]

Only someone completely out of touch with piloting a widebody airliner or a piece of dirt like RH would allow this kind of detraction in standards occur.

That's why AT and RH got the job. It's Swire policy...

[ChinaBeached]

Shutterbug - agreed. I suppose my comments, as well as those from many others only demonstrates how successful the divide and conquer technique is.

[CXtreme]

We don't hire cadets as direct entry Captains. That come with time and experience in the field.

[BillytheKid]

CXextreme-

And your point is?

[HotDog]

With regard to S/O recruitment and dedication to the job; the big mistake CX made, was to make F/Es redundant instead of training them to fly. People with thousands of hours operating on heavy metal with superb knowledge of equipment, loyalty and dedication.

[FERetd]

HotDog Quote :-"....loyalty and dedication."

Sadly, we know how much value CX puts on those qualities.

[Silent Running]

I thought this comment posted by a UK Telegraph reader, relating to Lloyds Bank incompetence, could equally apply to an HK airlines' team.

"It is not the staff that cause these problems, but upper management; and it now affects almost all organizations, public and private. The root cause is incompetence, accented by outright stupidity. Upper managements now operate on the theory that financial, technical and service methods and decision-making must be removed from the people who perform these functions. Their reasoning is that it is cheaper to have a system that has as many low wage order-takers as possible, who are easily replaceable, and as few decision-makers as possible who are not so replaceable. This has three spectacular consequences.

1) Separating functional knowledge from decision-making makes actual operation of the business chaotic and immune from improvement.

2) The system gets designed to inherently delay and avoid decision-making because of the small number of decision-makers, who are now overwhelmed with work they are functionally incompetent to perform, and

3) competent employees are forced to follow incompetent instructions knowing full well that they are ineffective and counter-productive, and that they are literally powerless to oppose or overrule.":D

JW's latest tome also describes the joys of dealing with HSBC ::ugh:

[Avinthenews]

That is the truest statement of exactly what is happening at CX!

[asianeagle]

The frustration comes from, and from what a lot of experienced FO's, SFO's and Capts repeat on here and socially all the time, is that all too often it becomes a single pilot operation in sims or other flight events when the SO due lack of genuine experience hasn't a clue

Those S/O's are now JFO's and things are getting real interesting.
Had to help a guy out the other day with his PM duties, so yes, single pilot ops it is.
The return PF sector was even more exciting! :eek: