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non-Pilot DFO and non-Pilot GMA

Fragrant Harbour A forum for the large number of pilots (expats and locals) based with the various airlines in Hong Kong. Air Traffic Controllers are also warmly welcomed into the forum.

non-Pilot DFO and non-Pilot GMA

Old 29th May 2015, 08:15
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non-Pilot DFO and non-Pilot GMA

I thought HKCAD only signed off on having a non-pilot DFO on the condition that at least one person out of DFO and GMA was a pilot?
triplesevencommuter is offline  
Old 29th May 2015, 08:44
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Nope. Seems as if it is ok with the regulator if these two positions can both be occupied by persons who have never signed for an aircraft and accepted responsibility for the safety of 300 to 400 people. I am sure that both the incumbents have a full working knowledge of all the technical aspects and stresses that being a pilot entails.
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Old 29th May 2015, 09:29
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Years of overseeing cabin service is clearly the qualification required these days to administer things at the pointy end....
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Old 29th May 2015, 11:57
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Who really gives a crap.

But if you do, it's better having a non-pilot as at least it's not a former colleague selling himself and his buddies out, all for the almighty dollar.

Just like that quote from the movie Wall Street:

"The problem with money, Bud, is that it makes you do things you don't want to do."
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Old 29th May 2015, 14:10
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iflylow- Its probably a character flaw, but actually I find that I DO give a crap.
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Old 29th May 2015, 14:31
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We hire people to be cadet SO's that aren't pilots, why should our DFO and GMA be any different?
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Old 29th May 2015, 16:09
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Originally Posted by BillytheKid View Post
We hire people to be cadet SO's that aren't pilots, why should our DFO and GMA be any different?
Remember you started from nothing as well.
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Old 29th May 2015, 17:20
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Remember you started from nothing as well.
Probably not in an airline, he didn't...
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Old 29th May 2015, 18:57
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touche'....
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Old 29th May 2015, 21:58
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Sadly if we laid off all the S/Os we've hired over the past 5 years I'd say only about 10% would continue in aviation via Air Force/instructing/freight or something else GA. Most I've chatted with would go do a degree at Uni and be a doctor/accountant/lawyer etc. There really isn't any passion for this job, there's been no real sacrifice by any of them to get here apart from a couple of years in Adelaide. No need to work a couple of shitty jobs to make ends meet and pay for your flying. No losing any mates from CFIT. Never a morning when you wake up and think "f*ck is it really worth it"
If Cathay changed tomorrow to a logistics company, sold all the aircraft and gave all of them desk jobs of some sort most would stay.
Not criticizing, but from those I fly with, that's the impression I get. Maybe that's just how things are and it's a good thing. Who knows.
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Old 29th May 2015, 22:20
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My understanding of history is that the CAD approved a particular non-pilot to be DFO. That approval was for that person only and not for the DFO position that may be taken up by others in the future. It also came with conditions such as GMA had to be a pilot.
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Old 30th May 2015, 00:29
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Originally Posted by Anotherday View Post
Sadly if we laid off all the S/Os we've hired over the past 5 years I'd say only about 10% would continue in aviation via Air Force/instructing/freight or something else GA. Most I've chatted with would go do a degree at Uni and be a doctor/accountant/lawyer etc. There really isn't any passion for this job
That's an alarming statistic if it's representative of the SO body as a whole. However, I wonder why the 90% of those you spoke to about their choice of profession are waiting to be laid off before following their new career path? If they feel so disenchanted with aviation surely they have the ability (and arguably the responsibility) to head off to pursue their dream career of their own volition rather than waiting to be made redundant?

In all honesty, if any of them were to leave I think they'd find that medicine/accountancy/law aren't that glamorous either and you work like a slave until you become very senior or have bought into a partnership. I doubt they'd have much passion for their new job either.

STP
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Old 30th May 2015, 08:07
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"This is the result from the 'everyone gets a soccer participation trophy' environment they grew up in."

May be. I put it all down to poor parenting or lack of it. Please don't stereo type all the youngsters out there as generation Y, an equal number are a credit to their parents and a pleasure to fly with!

The others will no doubt find them selves in management, trying still for that elusive pat on the back from dad!

The youngsters I really take my hat off too are the ones that made it with a very personal story to tell. A great number of those as well.

So to those new trainers who have taken up the call to arms, well let's say I can picture the type of kid you were.

Last edited by Just Do It; 30th May 2015 at 08:30.
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Old 30th May 2015, 08:26
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Elusive?
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Old 30th May 2015, 08:30
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Medical students don't go from classroom to assisting in surgical procedures within approx. 18 months of starting at university.

Law students don't assist in murder, grand fraud, third party injury, etc trials within 18 months of their first day in a classroom.

Accountant students don't assist in balancing the books of multi million dollar assets, say for example a widebody aircraft perhaps (??) just 18 months after their first day in the classroom either.

They all serve a form of apprenticeship that will take several / many years in order to be entrusted with that responsibility.

But CX knows better. (As do other similar LCC's).

And what's worse is those Gen-Y reverse high-fifing hair-gelled legends undoubtedly believe that they are worthy of their role, despite the impact of what their undercutting of the market does either.

DFO's, GMA's, COO's, etc, etc without any such flying experience can never comprehend the real issues, stressors or facts. And like these Gen-Y legends, they don't care to know either.
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Old 30th May 2015, 08:34
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Originally Posted by Arfur Dent View Post
Elusive?
Thank you!
Just Do It is offline  
Old 30th May 2015, 11:43
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This is a thread on the pilot background of the DFO and GMA, or rather, lack of, and has quickly degenerated into another thread slagging off the new hires.

@BillytheKid

Oooooh, I dunno Bill... one is basically an apprenticeship position and the other is arguably the top aviator slot in the corporation. You think those are comparable challenges? I've never heard of a leg general take charge of the 82d Airborne Division, wake me up when it happens. Plenty of leg 2d LTs come into jump school though. Everyone seems to grasp the difference.

@Anotherday

LMAO. You make it sound like you conducted a scientifically validated double-blind survey for a peer-reviewed academic journal. It's funny too... cause the SOs I talk to have plenty of passion for the job. They're doing the best they can with a shitty situation. CX doesn't have a fleet of twin props puddle jumping the regional islands where they can cut their teeth. And it's not exactly like Hong Kong is endowed with copious amount of free space and open skies for recreational flying. I can tick off nearly a dozen and more SOs off the top of my head I know have plowed down money on private flying lessons or to get a license or who fly off-duty in the States or Oz. Seriously... who you talking to??????

@Chinabeached

I have no clue what medical students do or don't do but I know that 1Ls go to work in legal offices assisting on major cases within months of their 1st semester in law school. But seriously... are we blaming the junior officers for creating this environment? Or are we lamenting bad parenting? I'm not quite sure where all the frustration toward the junior crew comes from. They didn't create the world they're. Arguably... their seasoned and more experienced colleagues might want to do some soul searching on that.

We all know where Swire's priorities are. And it's not the expertise and well-being of their flying professionals. That should be obvious.
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Old 30th May 2015, 12:39
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I think by taking the approach they are they are in genuine danger of trashing the brand. You get what you pay for. If this is the goal so be it but if not they are making some serious long term mistakes. Once one trashes out a premium brand one never gets the label back (one reason beer manufacturers don't discount premium brands to try to get greater volume--and those that have have quickly lost the premium branding).

A little paint doesn't salvage a rusted ship. While most of our goals amongst the workers are oriented toward not letting the ship rust, there are significant limitations on what we can do. If this is truly the direction then one needs to consider one's own position toward the future and where one should best be.
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Old 30th May 2015, 13:28
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Yes one does, doesn't one ?
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Old 1st Jun 2015, 02:30
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Certain things need approval from DFO.....
eg..... Flying to an airport with no Navaids......
Does she call up Cooler Box and ask what a "navaid is".....?
crwkunt roll is offline  

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