PPR, What's the deal?

[piperboy84]

I understand the requirement for PPR at small private strips where there may be a need for the owner/manager to verify the current conditions for landing are suitable or where the length and hazards are not published anywhere, but why do larger airfields that are city or government owned and have commercial traffic and officially published field info require PPR for GA aircraft.

What's the point?

[9 lives]

My experience with GA ops in larger PPR airports has been that if it's not for traffic flow/volume/compatibility issues, it's usually for apron and ground security reasons. Some larger airports are not set up to accommodate GA aircraft, and simply don't want them. They probably do not have the privilege to exclude them entirely, so they "discourage" by enacting PPR, and often "fees" so the GA aircraft really has to want to go.

used to fly in and out of Toronto International more than weekly, indeed flying three GA aircraft which were based there over the years. Then their operational focus shifted, and PPR and fees caused it to be entirely not desirable to fly in. I have not been back as a pilot for 25 years.

In contrast, when Montreal Mirabel was still operational, I would fly in from time to time. They seemed so bored, they'd welcome any plane, but had zero services to handle GA aircraft. One blowy winter night, after realizing there were no tiedowns, I asked if I look taxi around looking for a sheltered place to chock it. "Wherever you like" was the reply, so I actually parked the 182 under a boarding gate, in the lee of the terminal (I wish I'd had a camera with me!).

[chevvron]

In the UK, an airfield with an 'Ordinary' licence rather than a 'Public' licence is required by law to notify a PPR requirement. In addition, the local planning authority may also make it a 'condition' of granting planning permission as the airfield may have a limit on the number of movements allowed, thus the airport operator may need to allocate 'slots' for movements.
As an example, one airport I worked at had a limit on the number of movements allowed at weekends, whilst another had a limit prior to 10 am on sundays, so anyone turning up unannounced might break these limits.

[The Ancient Geek]

Also in the UK all unlicenced strips are legally private and no landings are legally allowed without the prior permission of the owner.

All to be found (somewhere) on the CAA website.

[18greens]

But what does ppr mean? A radio call, a phone call, a fax, 5 days warning by post in ink on freshly torn velum?

I usually phone and often get good info as well as being booked in so less chat inbound. Eg 'We have your details join downwind', lovely.

I understand that ppr can just be the call 5 minutes out. Not really sure what the actual requirement being addressed is other than people bumbling into circuits unbriefed.

The one time I didn't ppr by phone I turned up at Alderney to find out they had no fuel. Had I called I would have been prepared.

[The Ancient Geek]

The damage to Forfar strip (see other thread) is a good example of why PPR is essential. The idiot who landed on a soggy field could very easily ended up with a badly damaged aircraft.

It only takes a few minutes to call and ensure that the field is safe to land.

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

It's a myth that a CAA 'Public use' aerodrome licence allows freedom to come and go without PPR.

Read the conditions on any CAA aerodrome licence here (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=1123&pagetype=90&pageid=5373):

Condition 1 - The aerodrome is licensed for public use and shall at all times when it is available for the take off or landing of aircraft be so available to all persons on equal terms and conditions.

Condition 8 - Without prejudice to Condition 1, nothing in this licence shall be taken to confer on any person the right to use the aerodrome without the consent of the licensee.

Which to my legally untrained interpretation, means that PPR can be required anywhere if the licensee so wishes. I'm certain that the CAA can't give blanket permission for an aircraft to land at a private aerodrome. Many 'public use' aerodromes don't require PPR but try calling up Gatwick or an RAF Base and see how far you get with lobbing in for a coffee on spec.:E

[fireflybob]

But what does ppr mean? A radio call, a phone call, a fax, 5 days warning by post in ink on freshly torn velum?


Some airfields are "PPR to non radio aircraft".

[PA28181]

It only takes a few minutes to call and ensure that the field is safe to land.

The OP did say, why is it necessary at large aerodromes that could easily take traffic "on-spec" and not a muddy field with grazing sheep.

[The Ancient Geek]

Indeed, but there are many reasons why a larger field with hard runways may be closed, unsafe, or otherwise unable to accept your arrival.

Runway works, lack of fire cover, no AVGAS, how many more can you think of ?

[PA28181]

Indeed, but there are many reasons why a larger field with hard runways may be closed, unsafe, or otherwise unable to accept your arrival.

Runway works, lack of fire cover, no AVGAS, how many more can you think of ?

If it's that bad I'm sure there would be a notam which we all read religiously;)

[piperboy84]

If PPR is required at the larger fields perhaps putting it on the ATIS would be a good idea

[OpenCirrus619]

My views on "PPR" are summed up by the following points:

If PPR then I MUST get permission to land BEFORE I do so
If I'm planning to land somewhere then I will do this via email or phone
If I'm bimbling, and feel like dropping in somewhere, then I'll do it on the radio
If I request PPR on the radio and get no response then that is ALWAYS taken as a "NO"
If someone gets upset because I'm asking for PPR on the radio (as opposed to by email or phone) then they should just say "NO" - not go off on a rant, followed by giving permission


OC619

[Legalapproach]

Have a look at rules 11 and 12 of the Rules of The Air Regulations 2015

[PA28181]

Struggling to see how rule 11 has anything to do with PPR as it's about entering & leaving an ATZ

rule 12 relates to aircraft already on the ground...........so not much help really.

[Legalapproach]

Rule 12 applies from the moment you arrive on the ground - it's the rule the CAA prosecute under if you land without permission. Unless you land vertically and then don't move!

It used to be Rule 40

I don't have a copy of the 2015 rules in front of me so couldn't remember which applied but have a feeling that rule 11 relates to flying within an ATZ and therefore you would have to get permission.

[AdamFrisch]

I really dislike the UK's blatant misuse of PPR on general use airports.

PPR is a safety hazard, pure and simple. It's not standardised or following any procedure or aviation practice. It's unattainable by air or in an emergency. It rarely gets acknowledged even if communication is initiated. It adds confusion. It excludes and it hinders and hurst GA. It's just a retarded system invented by people who put a lot of weight on their own importance and want to be able to take tea breaks between arrivals.

How many student pilots have pressed on into even worse weather or with technical malfunctions because they didn't get PPR and are terrified of the repercussions should they attempt a precautionary landing without it?

If it's so essential, how come UK is pretty much the only place that uses this system? So that someone can say to you that the "grass field can get water bogged after rain"? Honestly, how many non-towered UK airports can you fly to today without having to obtain a PPR? Not very many. Why? They can't all be impossibly hard airfields demanding sky god skills?

If you run an airfield, then run an airfield and attract as many customers as possible. If you want to run an nursery, then do that instead.

[TheOddOne]

I liken it to dropping in to see Aunt Maud for afternoon tea without giving her a call first to see if she's
a) in
b) entertaining a gentleman caller.
Very rude.

In our case, we want to be able to tell people about things such as parachuting or avoiding the severe curlover from the cliff or the fact that the runway is shut for a motoring event; stuff we can't say over the Air/Ground and anyway our radio's not manned much of the time these days.

So PLEASE just ring up first, if only to check on the weather!

TOO

[Jan Olieslagers]

If it's so essential, how come UK is pretty much the only place that uses this system? So that someone can say to you that the "grass field can get water bogged after rain"? Honestly, how many non-towered UK airports can you fly to today without having to obtain a PPR? Not very many. Why? They can't all be impossibly hard airfields demanding sky god skills?

If you run an airfield, then run an airfield and attract as many customers as possible. If you want to run an nursery, then do that instead. Several misconceptions here.

1) The UK is not the only country to have PPR at many fields. Not by a long way. For one example, here in Belgium ALL fields are PPR except the five biggest - and those are prohibitively expensive to many private pilots. Holland much the same, a lot of PPR in Germany too.

2) Neither should PPR fields be harder to use than others, that is never the reason for PPR. At the smaller fields, PPR is one of the few options the poor operator has, to make sure visiting pilots will have a visit as safe and as enjoyable as possible - I hope you have no issue with that? As a counter-example, I well remember listening in to the radio at EBGB and some fool come blundering in announcing intentions contrary to all the local rules. The poor AFIS operator had to remind him several times of the published procedures, even though the fool had put his signature on the faxed PPR form acknowledging them. The AFIS operator even had to remind him he risked having his plane impounded if he continuued as announced. No surprise there was a cross-Atlantic accent to his R/T... Had he gone on, it would have been in all the newspapers, likely have created an official investigation for busting EBBR airspace, and added munition to those that want EBGB Grimbergen to be closed. Are you advocating that? And this chap even HAD done the PPR, only with not enough care.

3) Most of all, if one operates an aerodrome it is not in order to have "customers". There is even less money to be made from operating an aerodrome than from flying a small plane. For one example, my homefield sees perhaps 20 visiting planes on a really sunny weekend, no more than a 1000 per annum so that makes for no more than 5000 € revenue - that's peanuts compared to the total cost. Aerodromes in most European countries should be considered charities. If they impose PPR, let us accept they may have their reasons, and be grateful they keep up the good work against all whining from nimbies, ever stricter rulegiving, bad publicity at the slightest incident, and pilots always wanting more for ever less money.

On the other hand, I do agree bigger aerodromes should not abuse the PPR procedure to discourage recreational pilots from visiting. Most of these fields are run with at least some kind of support from local authorities and they should deliver up to that.

[AdamFrisch]

Then why doesn't any of them allow PPR from the air when the have either a tower or an A/G, if it's just for my best interest or safety? It boggles the mind. It's just high vis west mania in combination with sky-god syndrome.

Imagine if I called up my customers each year and asked them to specify on what exact dates they would employ me in the coming year, for how long, and how much they would pay me. And then give them a bo**ocking if they call in with extra work that wasn't previously scheduled. It's the exact same principle.

[Jan Olieslagers]

You may have a point there - I have never been in UK airspace. We certainly have no dayglow vest nonsense here - at the contrary, the last time some foreigners landed and almost religiously put on the fluo things to walk into the bar, all present made very very stiff faces, to cover internal laughter.

Round here, I do have flown to PPR fields without calling before, and never got into trouble - but then

-) I had to be ready for a refusal over the radio

-) I had to be ready for a diagonal cross in the signal square which would have equally precluded my landing. Most fields accepting NORDO planes, the signal square is - again! - the a/d operator's ultimate measure if something goes wrong. On one or two occasions, when our runway was blocked by some kind of incident, changing the signal square was one of the earliest actions taken, after of course the primary care of the incident itself.

[fireflybob]

When in Rome do as the Romans....with most people having a mobile (ahem "cell") phone these days I really don't see what the big issue is.

I'd rather give an airfield a quick phone call first and get the heads up on anything special and, as has been stated previously, when I call them on the radio they already have my details.

[Maoraigh1]

You still have active signal squares!

[500ft]

No-one has convinced me of this need for PPR yet. I understand for private, military or those with unique challenges, but in general. Different cultures I guess

I have landed at about 15 published fields since I started flying and none were PPR. Some were controlled, some not. Many were grass, if they are too wet they are notamed closed. Simples. I have a cell phone, use it to check notams and weather.

[Baldegret]

Blackpool is a complete nonsense these days and I can only assume it is actively trying to dissuade GA. Not only do you now require PPR even if you are a Blackpool based aircraft (why?!), but ATC seem to be operating some sort of slot system. I recently called to book out and was told I would have to wait 40 minutes because they were only meant to handle 4 movements an hour. I've flown extensively around the rest of the UK, France and the USA and this contrasts extremely unfavourably with nearly every other airport (although Oban has come close in the past) I have visited.

[Victorian]

Well I believe that Adam has hit the nail on the head with this and that the overall effect of these arcane practices is simply to restrict the hours that pilots fly. As he says, it makes flying much more dangerous in addition to the inconvenience factor.

But here in Europe we live in an environment where private aviation is regarded as a public nuisance and where the 'authorities' would happily dispense with us altogether if they could. That they don't is a continuing miracle and one that we have to go along with if we want to continue flying. So I for one go along with the stupid rigmarole of PPR, booking out, VFR FPL's, GAR's, airports closed when unattended and the hundred other things that make private flying in Europe an inconvenient mode of transport.

Having spent almost 50 Hrs VFR flying in the US this month without ever once needing 'permission' to do anything at all I do have a right to a point of view on this!

[Jan Olieslagers]

I suggest all people with that kind of arguments spend the rest of their flying days in Patagonia or Inner Mongolia or such. How quiet they will be! How happy their unimpeded flying!

[9 lives]

For those aerodromes which reside on privately owned property, it is the right of that property owner to specify PPR if they wish. In some cases, it may be that they own the runway for purposes of their own interest, rather than altruistic service to private pilots. Sure, it's very nice that a property owner would allow "free" use of their property/runway, but they are not obliged.

Their specifying PPR might be for insurance reasons - they may not feel protected against liability resulting from the use of the runway, so would rather vet who might use it.

The last person I actually invited to land on my runway crashed on it. It had nothing to do with the runway, he was just an inexperienced pilot. That was 20 years ago. The huge dead spot of grass, resulting from 60 liters of spilled avgas, and my lost day of productivity righting his plane, and then flying him home have faded. But the reality that I set myself up for a whole lot more effort, had he attempted to place liability upon me, stays with me. No one gets invited to land here. When they do, and they leave ruts in the soft ground in the spring, because they did not call and ask, who fixes the ruts?

For those who would like to be free of the requirement to obtain prior permission, either fly from and to aerodromes which do not require it, or buy your own!

[Sillert,V.I.]

How many student pilots have pressed on into even worse weather or with technical malfunctions because they didn't get PPR and are terrified of the repercussions should they attempt a precautionary landing without it?

It was impressed on me rather strongly during training that I should always do whatever I felt necessary in the interests of safety, and not let this decision be swayed by any consideration of breaking policies, rules or regulations.

I also remember after a recent tragic event the owner/operator of Popham saying on this forum that they would never turn away an aircraft which needed to land, irrespective of PPR status and irrespective of whether the airfield was open or closed at the time.

One winter's day in (I think) 1985, an unforecasted snowstorm over southern england caught out a LOT of folks. One of the club cherokees got trapped in the weather to the west of London, called for help and at one point the controllers were seriously considering bringing it into EGLL - IIRC it made it safely into White Waltham.

If you are in difficulties, do whatever you need to do and if necessary argue the toss afterwards when you are safely on the ground. Do not let any fear of reprisals or prosecution prevent you from doing whatever you have to do to ensure the successful outcome of your flight.

[Victorian]

Very good points, Sillert VI, very well made. But that last paragraph says everything you need to know about private flying in UK and in parts of Europe!

It's my view that one reason for our low retention of newly qualified PPL's is the high probability of receiving a public bawling out for this or that infraction, after which the poor soul never flies again.

And by the way, I'm not talking about privately owned grass strips in this context, but hard surface ex WW2 airfields that have no business knowing who you are, where you are going or making up arcane rules for the use of their property under the umbrella of insurance, planning permission or other excuse.

[fabs]

PPR argument aside, if you are flying and something goes horribly wrong I'd like to think you can land regardless. My (mil) airfield naturally has strict PPR requirements, but if you have an emergency the seas are parted and you can land, and we won't charge you either!

[ShyTorque]

Step turn,

Here in UK there is also something called the 28 day rule (planning regulations). Landing without the owner's permission could cause him/her to be at risk of prosecution in law.

[flyinkiwi]

No-one has convinced me of this need for PPR yet. I understand for private, military or those with unique challenges, but in general. Different cultures I guess

I have landed at about 15 published fields since I started flying and none were PPR. Some were controlled, some not. Many were grass, if they are too wet they are notamed closed. Simples. I have a cell phone, use it to check notams and weather.

I know a couple of certificated airfields in NZ which require PPR, North Shore and Waiheke Island. North Shore because they don't have a lot of casual aircraft parking space available so you need to ring the Aero Club (who owns the airfield) first to make sure there is a free spot for you before you leave. Waiheke Island because you need to have a (phone) briefing from the operator regarding the specific noise abatement procedures unique to it before you venture there.

[500ft]

I know a couple of certificated airfields in NZ which require PPR, North Shore and Waiheke Island. North Shore because they don't have a lot of casual aircraft parking space available so you need to ring the Aero Club (who owns the airfield) first to make sure there is a free spot for you before you leave. Waiheke Island because you need to have a (phone) briefing from the operator regarding the specific noise abatement procedures unique to it before you venture there.

Those are exceptions though, with good reasons, if you were to list most the fields within 2 hours flight time of there most would still not require PPR. Waiheke has a 45 degree offset final to the 17 threshold, no lining that up on the PAPI:}

[Katamarino]

Not sure what Jan is talking about with regards to PPR. Having lived in Holland for five years and flown multiple times in and out of almost every airfield in the country, as well as a great many in Belgium, France, and Germany, the only two places that ever needed UK style PPR were Eindhoven and Rotterdam. Maybe there has been a complete change in the last three years, but I doubt it.

UK style PPR seems to be primarily a result of pointless bureaucracy and peoples need to feel important; be it airfield owners or local councils. As a Brit, it embarrasses me that it doesn't just go away.

Given the dilapidated or cramped state of many of our airfields though, I can on occasion see why the operator would want people to call ahead and be warned of the poor state of the field.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Reciprocally, it is not clear to me what Katamarino means with "UK style PPR" ;)

PPR as I know it amounts to me dialling the published number, then the conversation goes something like "aerodrome EBxx - good morning, lady, I am xyz from EBZH, I intend to fly to yours, is it ok? - sure, we have runway xx in use, all clear" . Perhaps they will inquire when I estimate my arrival, or will ask my registration. Or perhaps perhaps I will be told of a soft spot in the runway or there is intense glider activity or such - only useful information. It always reassures me to confirm the circuit either LH or RH and the usual circuit altitude. Not required, but it adds to security.

Some may feel the obligation as an infringement on their personal freedom, I can appreciate that. Indeed the discussion is somewhat reminiscent of the German "Flugleiterpflicht" - the obligation to have a qualified person operating the radio at each aerodrome - and that one I do consider sheer rubbish, its main effect being increased load on the already overburdened operators of small aerodromes.

And if the mechanism is used as a means to discourage private flyers from using certain fields that is very lowly, yes; but wouldn't such practice be equally annoying to _all_ pilots flying there, or considering so?

[N-Jacko]

Here in UK there is also something called the 28 day rule (planning regulations). Landing without the owner's permission could cause him/her to be at risk of prosecution in law.

Breach of ordinary planning regulations is not an offence in the UK.

Incidentally, Glenswinton is listed as PPR but unless they interrupt a clear round of skeet, unannounced visitors are more likely to be greeted with a cup of tea than with a Remington 870.

So if y'all are heading for the Earl of Stair's shindig on Saturday, you really have no excuse not to drop by and leave a bottle of rosé de saignée in my hangar...

[piperboy84]

So if y'all are heading for the Earl of Stair's shindig on Saturday, you really have no excuse not to drop by and leave a bottle of rosé de saignée in my hangar...

Would a bottle of Iron Bru and a Forfar Bridie suffice from those us whose stock originates more from the smellier as opposed to the Sommelier class?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Breach of ordinary planning regulations is not an offence in the UK.
Well, not to start with, but if you ignore enough enforcement notices and then ignore enough court orders it can, eventually, begin to get a bit serious.

[India Four Two]

pb84,

I'm familiar with Iron Bru, although I must confess I've never drunk it. However, I had to look up Forfar Bridie:
They are similar to pasties, but because they are made without potatoes, are much lighter in texture. Bakers in Forfar traditionally use shortcrust pastry for their bridies, but in the rest of Scotland, flaky pastry is preferred. The filling of a bridie consists of minced beef, butter, and beef suet seasoned with salt and pepper. It is sometimes made with minced onions. You've made me quite hungry. ;)

[Katamarino]

Reciprocally, it is not clear to me what Katamarino means with "UK style PPR"

PPR as I know it amounts to me dialling the published number, then the conversation goes something like "aerodrome EBxx - good morning, lady, I am xyz from EBZH, I intend to fly to yours, is it ok? - sure, we have runway xx in use, all clear" .

Fair enough Jan! :) Actually, we both have the same definition of PPR here, and I recognise your typical conversation as one I'd usually have to have in advance with a UK airport.

Almost nowhere in the Netherlands required that (neither did any of the French, Belgian, or German airports I visited although some such as Antwerp I would call ahead anyway and check out fees and handling requirements). I just checked Texel, as a random example, and nowhere in the AIS or on their website do they mention any requirement for PPR.

So while there's no rule against calling them, there's certainly no need as in the UK where many airports seem to treat it as the most important thing in the world!

[172510]

One good thing with phone PPR is that someone is supposed to answer, and to give you useful information (Fuel available, tie downs available, café open etc.). In France, airfields are generally not PPR, unmanned, sometimes completely deserted, and getting useful information for your preparation is difficult (I'm sure some of them would have more traffic if they were PPR, as you're not going to choose a destination you don't know enough about).


With a bluetooth headset, you can get a phone PPR while airborne. You can also order your taxi once you know with a good precision your time of landing. You can get your clearance to enter controlled airspace under IFR while ready to depart at an unmanned airfield. It's a really a good feature

[On Track]

Why can't you just fly from one public airport to another, as we do in the rest of the English-speaking world?

[Jan Olieslagers]

Because only the fewest fields round here are public. Most are private, with severe limitations on their operating conditions. It is vital to operators to make sure visiting pilots respect both operating hours and local procedures. But even the public fields have very strict operating procedures, the circuit precisely defined with several VRP's. Check the EBAW VFR chart in the AIP for one example.

Europe is densely inhabited, in some places even very densely, it is impossible to fart here without offending one or the other neighbour. Much worse to fly an aircraft.

Disrespecting the given rules may not have much impact on the pilot, especially if he's a foreigner on a single visit, but may be all the worse for the a/d operator.

And you have no idea how stupid and stubborn some pilots can be. I remember well listening in to EBGB AFIS, a couple of years ago, when a chap with a heavy US'an accent cheerfully announced his arrival in an absolutely illegal way - the poor AFIS operator had to do all he could to get him into the official approach procedure, via LONDI. Had even to remind him he risked having his plane impounded if he continued as announced.

[Jan Olieslagers]

I'm sure some of them would have more traffic if they where PPR, as you're not going to choose a destination you don't know enough about.

Nobody stops you from calling them if it is not mandatory.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

Because only the fewest fields round here are public. Most are private
We don't go in much for "taxing the poor to pay for rich men's hobbies", as it would appear in the press.

[Redbird72]

I have no problem with phone PPR, but then I'm pretty low on experience and currency, so I prefer to hear about odd procedures and warnings on the ground first. To be fair, most PPR allows PPR by radio (given by the fact that airfields that require PPR by phone say so very clearly).

Many UK airfields are constantly under threat from councils and re-developers, and most have some amount of noise abatement procedures and/or movement limits (even larger airfields) to keep the neighbours happy - PPR is the easiest way to disseminate the information early on.

[On Track]

Having frequented this forum for many years I've come to the conclusion that Britain is not an aviation-friendly country.
I'm very glad I don't have to put up with most of the nonsense that you British pilots have to endure (although the authorities in Australia keep throwing up new and unnecessary challenges; the New Zealanders are slightly less anal).
Obviously you guys are passionate about your flying and are willing to make all sorts of sacrifices to pursue your dreams. I admire your dedication and wish you well, but I'm grateful that I don't live there.