Calculating Aircraft Ownership per hour of??

[BravoSierraKilo]

Would someone be so kind as to explain how to calculate the per hour rate in relation to owning your own aircraft.


I intend to purchase a C150 or Cherokee...I like the C150 but also like the 4 seats in a Cherokee! C172's are a bit out of my price range at present!


Can anyone recommend a good 4 seat alternative to a 150/172


My budget is €20,000 EUR




Thank you

[Heston]

Unless you do many hundreds of hours a year (unlikely for private flying) by far your largest costs will be fixed, irrespective of the amount of flying you do. You need to work those out first and then make a guess at how much flying you will do - it will in practice turn out to be less than you expect/hope now. Then you can factor in fuel and maintenance costs.


Or you could do what most people do. That is they just do it and live in penury for ever after.


Or I could say "if you have to ask you cant afford it". But that would be unfair without pointing out that there are much cheaper options in terms of aircraft ownership than the Cessna/Piper route you are proposing to go down - in the UK at least (permit aircraft) but I'm not sure how it works in Eire.

[Rod1]

If you fly a reasonable amount your costs will be significantly impacted by fuel. The numbers below are for my aircraft (MCR01) so you will need to use yours;

Fixed costs

Insurance 800
Hangarage 1000
Permit/maintenance 450
Total p/a 2250

Per hour
Fuel per hour 22


So for 75 hours all in cost is 3900

Cost per hour is £52.

All costs in £

Rod1

[flybymike]

Or at the other end of the scale a C177 based at a regional airport.
Insurance 2k
Hangarage 8.5k
Maintenance last year 12k
Fuel per hour £70

Total for 75 hours say 27k

£360.00 per hour

There, bet that cheered you up....

[BravoSierraKilo]

Money won't be an issue but why spend more than you have to.

I'm stuck between GA and Microlights . I do plan to fly to Europe so I think that GA would be best but I am open to correction. There are limits when flying microlights such as vfr only etc.

Thank's Rod1. I presume your aircraft is microlight, a very nice one to. Hence the cheap running cost!

Would you see any advantages of owning a GA aircraft over a microlight.


I do have access to A Cessna 210 and a UFM-10 Lambada but I would like to own my own aircraft.

[9 lives]

Certified and Microlights aircraft are different in their intended role and capabilities. Assure that you choose the aircraft type suited to what you intend operationally.

A search back will turn up many threads on aircraft operating costs.

For a fixed prop, fixed gear single.....
From my Canadian perspective consider the following:

Insurance 1000-2000 per year
Hangar or tiedown +1000 per year
Annual inspection cots 1000+
Fixed maintenance reserves +500 per year (things that age anyway)

Minimum 3500 per year fixed cost, fly it or not, plus...

Per 100 hours per year:

Fuel 65 per hour = 6500
Engine & prop reserve 1200
Airframe reserve* 500
Consumables 500
Landing fees?

Minimum 8700 per year operating costs

So 12200 per year = 122 per hour

I have purposefully not specified currency, as it appears to me that those numbers hold no matter what the currency.

These numbers represent well the cost for each of my planes, though I save by insuring them together, keeping them at home, operating the 150 on Mogas, and doing all the maintenance myself.

*Legacy aircraft are beginning to suffer parts shortages. Be VERY sure that the type you would like to buy is well supported with replacement parts, should you need them - OR have a super detailed (=costly) pre purchase inspection done to assure that there are no creeping maintenance issues - primarily corrosion. I have been personally involved in three legacy Pipers which had terrible fates, as Piper refused to support them through maintenance or damage issues. A 1970 Arrow and Seneca 1 were permanently grounded, as Piper would not provide parts, and there was simply no other source of parts (wing spar parts), and a Warrior snuck by in a very costly way with hail damage.

I suggest to potential buyers that they use numbers similar to the foregoing, and purchase an aircraft whose purchase price does not exceed half of their first year's budget. No point in buying a plane, and being so broke you can't afford to even park it, much less fly it!

[Bob Upanddown]

BSK

What is the situation regarding the Cessna SIDs where you are?
This could add a huge amount to your maintenance costs and, if mandatory where you are, would effectively rule out a Cessna 150.

I would look again at your budget if you want to tour reliably. A good Cessna 150 is going to be hard to find anyway. A cheap PA28 140 will be old and tired. I would look at a more modern PA28 as this would also avoid the problems getting parts (unless you are really unlucky).

But if you are light and don't carry much with you, what is wrong with a good microlight? I hate to say it but I think GA in Europe is on a downward slope from which it will never recover.

[9 lives]

The Cessna SIDs as they apply to the 150/172 are a great "word to the wise". In my opinion, Cessna got it right with these. At the more intense level, they are burdensome, but for a private aircraft this depth of investigation is probably not required. The "SID light" should be an element of the prepurchase inspection, or your first annual, for your own peace of mind, if it has not already been accomplished on the aircraft.

Unlike most legacy Pipers, Cessna does define negligible damage, which can be a handy "out" for minor damage or wear. And, more of the Cessna airframe is made op out of formed sheet metal parts, and the structural repair manual gives much greater detail than Piper as to how to fabriacate or repair structure and parts if you cannot buy them.

But none of that is cheap, which is why the plane might be ;)

[Big Pistons Forever]

The school where I help out recently completed the full SID's for their C 172's. One had the entire vertical fin replaced after so much internal corrosion was found that it was not economically repairable. I know of another Cessna SEP, not ours, where the SID inspection found a cracked wing strut attach casting, failure of that and the wing falls off :eek:

The SID inspections are probably about 30 % overkill but almost all C 172's are over 35 yrs old and many are pushing 50 years, so a it is reasonable to expect some expensive surprises in almost every example......

[Rod1]

"Thank's Rod1. I presume your aircraft is microlight, a very nice one to. Hence the cheap running cost!

Would you see any advantages of owning a GA aircraft over a microlight."

No - not a micro - group A - SEP with CS prop / mode s and nav com and Glass. It is a permit aircraft so I can maintain it myself with LAA oversight but it will cruse at 130k+ and tours Europe 2 up every year for the last 9 (since it first flew). Will be for sale in July but it is a bit over your price point:). I have saved about £70k over 9 years compared with my old 180hp AA5 on a C of A.

Rod1

[9 lives]

I have saved about £70k over 9 years compared with my old 180hp AA5 on a C of A.

Where is the £7777 per year saving, all other things being equal, between two similar complexity and performance aircraft, operated in the same environment?

I save money with one of my planes being somewhat equivalent to "permit", but not that much. I still have to do all the same work to maintain it....

[Genghis the Engineer]

Rod's right that you should think in terms of total cost over several years, rather than just purchase cost.

Rod's also right that if you are content to stay day-VMC, you'll get far more aeroplane for your money if it doesn't have a CofA. The various sub-ICAO systems (UK Permit to Fly, Irish Flight Permit...) offer more aeroplane for [over several years, running costs included] less money.

If you want to fly night/IFR, you do need a CofA - in which case in answer to your question, aeroplanes that offer 4 seats and reasonable performance and reliability, but weren't built by Piper or Cessna would include the Moraine-Saulnier Rallye, Grumman AA5 (the AA5b Tiger being the best tourer and load carrier, at a small running cost penalty over the smaller engine versions).

I have a share in an AA5a and have done a lot with that, but it's not a true 4-seater. 2.5 would be more honest, but an AA5b becomes a 3.5 seater - which is better than many PA28 variants. I also have a share in a 100hp Rollason Condor, on a Permit, which flies at 90kn for £60/hr compared to 105kn for £90/hr for the AA5 (fixed costs overall for the AA5 are around double the Condor's).

Cherokee 140s are a bargain at the moment, but a bit slow and elderly. Product support still seems to be good, and they are much cheaper to buy than a -161 (the flying school favourite) or a C172. I took a PA28-140 from Bournemouth to Prestwick and back in March, and enjoyed it - 3:50 each way including taxi time, including about an hour IMC each eay which is viable, if slightly pedestrian.

G

[ChickenHouse]

What does the 20k budget include? If it is only for the purchase and you have the same amount spare for the first two years a 60ies C172 will do. If 20k is your total budget for purchase plus first two years surprises, you will only be able to spend 10k (rule of thumb) for the plane, which leaves you with older C150 and out of luck for a 4-seater. Always keep in mind, owning is NOT cheaper compared to renting, unless you fly well in excess of 100 hours per year.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Where is the £7777 per year saving, all other things being equal, between two similar complexity and performance aircraft, operated in the same environment?

I save money with one of my planes being somewhat equivalent to "permit", but not that much. I still have to do all the same work to maintain it....


35 litres/hr AVGAS in my AA5 is about £60/hr at current prices.
I'm guessing 20 litres/hr MOGAS in Rod's MCR01, would be about £28/hr. Plus probably a faster aeroplane.

Roughly halve the airworthiness oversight costs from PtF to CofA in the UK, so annual goes from £3kish to £1.5kish.

Younger newer aeroplanes have less wearing out, also they tend to be more designed for maintainability.

Parts are much cheaper - typically half the price on a non-CofA engine such as a Rotax or Jabiru, compared to a Lycontinental.

PtF aeroplanes permit owner maintenance on most things, whilst CofA aeroplanes are very restrictive. Your own time is usually cheaper.

G

[BravoSierraKilo]

Thank you for all the replies

The 20k is just for the purchase. I have flow C172, C150, Piper Cherokee, Lambada, Samba XXL, Skipper and soon I hope to fly a Slingsby T67 Firefly.

So I have flown all of these but I still lie awake wondering what to buy! I tell myself that a Microlight would be perfect as I have access to C210 as previously stated.

I sat in an X-Air at a local show last summer and the owner said 'Jesus if you have mates that have GA aircraft what you need son is my X-Air' :p I will be flying from Westmeath to Waterford which as the crow flies is about 80Nm but will I do it in an X-Air at 65mph cruise? I really don't know



I do like the Socato TB-9 Tampico, and there happens to be one foe sale at an airfield not far from me. I did fly the aircraft a few years ago and it seemed like a nice looked after plane but that was a few years ago. 1986 currently going for 17,500

2008 Engine hours since overhaul. Last overhauled 7/6/00.
Constant speed propeller. 55hrs since overhaul. Last overhauled 8/12.
New exhaust valve guides & piston rings fitted in Feb. '13

Total aircraft time 4202 hours
Annual inspection due 26/10/13.
ARC Due
Aircraft always hangared

[Maoraigh1]

Are you aware of the likely annual maintenance cost of your £20,000 EASA aircraft? Compared to an Annex 2 aircraft?

[BravoSierraKilo]

I understand that cost difference but I am also trying to look ahead and try to pick the best aircraft for my needs!

I don't want to but a Microlight only to suddenly realise that I would be better off with GA.

I can pick up an X-Air or a Rans S6 for 10,000GBP but I can also pick up a GA for 15k plus depending on age and certs......:ugh:

[500ft]

I'm still a renter but I am tempted to buy, just have to delete my spreadsheet that tells me how much it will actually cost me. For me I do use that seat in the back sometimes and would miss it. And someone has to be the sucker to keep these GA planes flying.

For an approximation, if you look at shares for sale in syndicates that own the types you are looking at. Multiply the monthly by the number of shares, that will be your monthly. Then the hourly rate would be the same provided you fly enough, say 100 or so hours.

I read about permit aircraft on this forum, some of them like Piper Supercubs are most definitely GA in my part of the world; in fact you will most likely pay a premium over the likes of a C152 to fly one. No sure what you have in Ireland.

[BravoSierraKilo]

It's the rear seats that I'd be thinking about when buying. I suppose I can buy a 2 seater and rent if I want to take some family or friends up or borrow off my friends when available.

Pretty sure a Supercub is GA here also but with EASA in place that may have changed.

[Heston]

BSK, you've mentioned aircraft ranging from the Xair to a 172. They are worlds apart in terms of their ownership costs and performance/capability. Both are superbly good at doing what they are intended to do.


My advice would be to wait some more before buying as a sole owner, so that you can refine your plans for the type of flying you want to do.
For example:
Xair will be a disappointment if you want to go places any distance away and carry more than one passenger, but is great cheap fun flying
172 will be a disappointment if you want cheap flying from short farm strips and to keep the costs down, but is a very capable touring aircraft with four seats.


Renting and/or buying into a syndicate would allow you to get an idea of the sort of thing you will enjoy as an aircraft owner.

[ChickenHouse]

172 will be a disappointment if you want cheap flying from short farm strips and to keep the costs down, but is a very capable touring aircraft with four seats.

Yes, Micro- and Ultralights will be cheaper in operation and on very short strips (<1,200 ft).
No, a C172 will be disappointing if you want to use four seats for touring, unless you have a 210 HP rocket. A C172 is a great touring plane for two, very usable for touring with three seats, but quite limited in range when using four seats and W comes into W&B. This would be solved by a C182.

[Rod1]

Step Turn - happy to go through with you but do not want to take over this thread. G has most of the points.

To give specific examples;

I rebuilt my prop last year (happens every 6 years). I built the prop from a kit originally - it is an electric VP prop which is connected to a CSC-1 to give CS. Total cost of the rebuild was £12 for lubricants and Hylomar.

The TOTAL cost of maintenance over 8 years has so far worked out at £430 pa. Oil is changed every year or 100h - cost £20pa. Filter is £10 a year. Plugs are around £3.5 each. She burns 18.5lph of Mogas.

Rod1

[BravoSierraKilo]

I can pick up an X-Air or Rans S6 with annual etc. for about €11,000EUR. They mostly come with 2 stroke Rotax 582 but id prefer a 4 stroke.


My dad who has a PPL is interested in splitting the cost down the middle with me so we can both keep ourselves fresh. I will most likely pick one up next summer.


At least with the microlight I can keep myself in the air while I decide what the next step is. If I decide that microlights are the way I will buy a composite microlight such as the Samba XXL etc. If I feel the need for GA I will be a good boy and save my cents and pick up a viable 4 seat touring aircraft after I explore every type available to me.


I am lucky to have a good steady career so that wont be an issue......although whether I go High wing or low wing is another discussion altogether haha

[Heston]

The idea of flying a micro to keep you in the air while you decide what to do next is a good one. Though you will like it so much you may never want to "progress" to GA.


A Rotax 582 in either an Xair or a RANS is perfectly fine. Don't believe folk who say you've got to go four-stroke in a micro.

[BravoSierraKilo]

If I do decide to go Purley microlight I will go composite for the extra, speed and comfort. As you know some composite microlights are pretty expensive but the maintenance is fairly low in regards to GA.

I don't have enough experience in microlights to say if a 2 stroke is better than a 4. I'm at the mercy of Google search to educated me!

[BravoSierraKilo]

Its a tad bit small and can only carry one


http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/photos/2/8/0/2115082.jpg

[BravoSierraKilo]

My god so fussy!

Good question by the way, would be interested to know myself.

[Genghis the Engineer]

The Speedtwin and Lazair are also twins on a PtF, although not sure how easy it would be to obtain an example of either.

OP - go fly something like an X'Air and chat to the owners. Shiny and composite does not necessarily equate with flying pleasure, but it usually does equate with purchase costs.

I've hundreds of hours with 582s, and rather more with 503s and 447s. All perfectly fine engines, but the 582 is certainly enhanced by a 3:1 or better 3.47:1 gearbox rather than the standard, and cheaper, 2.58:1 gearbox. The reduced propeller tip speeds make for a much more pleasant flying experience.

http://www.lazair.com/portcolbeach.jpg

G

[BravoSierraKilo]

I have a lot of experience with motorbikes both 2 stroke and 4 stroke and I just feel uneasy flying a microlight with a 2 stroke engine!!


I had a conversation with my father who is interested in sharing the cost of Reims C150 and apparently my local priest is an avid private pilot (who knew) so he may also be interested in a share and if so I will go 172/Cherokee!


But I will still pick up an X-Air or Rans S6 as I can use them for evening and weekend fun when I just want a nice relating fly about my local area.