Flying into Sywell AeroExpo 2014

[GK430]

Some aerial footage of the approach via the published method via Pitsford to land on 21L.

kI7jc6N6_E8&feature=youtu.be

Yes, I know, 'Finals' but was referring to a choice of TWO (plural) runways!!

[robin]

Thanks for that. Very useful video

Only thing missing are the other aircraft in the pattern.....

[GK430]

Indeed! When I go 'single pilot' and have no lookout, I try and go for a quieter slot time.

[GK430]

I just hope that all will fly the Pitsford hold, unlike an anonymous airman that we passed about 15 miles south and then found ourselves behind on the downwind leg.
Not all display 'airmanship'!

[Jonzarno]

Excellent video and really useful: thanks for posting!

I liked the high speed taxy run at the end ;)

[soaringhigh650]

The procedure is risky.

It fully relies on see-and-avoid with all its limitations.

To further compound the problem there is very high density traffic as nobody keeps to their slot times, no use of radio until #1 on final, and no ATC being present.

It is only by sheer luck so far in the big sky that nobody has had a collision.

[powerless]

Glad my slot to take in a glider is before the masses start!

[Bob Upanddown]

DODGY !!
The procedure is risky.
It fully relies on see-and-avoid with all its limitations.
To further compound the problem there is very high density traffic as nobody keeps to their slot times, no use of radio until #1 on final, and no ATC being present.
It is only by sheer luck so far in the big sky that nobody has had a collision.

Which is why I stopped going to the PFA rally by air. Too many times, I was cut up on downwind or even final by people who clearly had not looked at any instructions and often heard people calling up for landing instructions on the radio.
A conscientious pilot can read the instructions as much as he likes and keep the best possible look-out but the high-density of idiots around fly-ins like Aeroexpo means that a mid-aid is just a matter of time.

[Echo Romeo]

Why did you fly the holding pattern when there were no other aircraft?

[ShyTorque]

Is the procedure the same for this year?

[Mariner9]

I'll be flying in again Saturday and following the prescribed procedure - seems from the above postings of doom that I've always had miraculous escapes thus far so plan to continue in same vein.

[flybymike]

Arrival and departure procedures kindly provided by Pooleys.

http://www.pooleys.com/pooleysaeroexpopack2015.pdf

[GK430]

Flew the prescribed pattern as was not the last one in according to the bookings that particular day. Furthermore, the calls on Final were still significant and there is nothing worse at AeroExpo/LAA when there is unwarranted chatter/requests.

Remember one guy giving his life history for a crossing of the airfield at 2,000 ft one year......Notam.....what Notam, Jeez!

[soaringhigh650]

Why did you fly the holding pattern when there were no other aircraft?

How would you know?

Would you try and count the planes in the sky to work out how high the holding stack has gone up to? Do you think you'll be successful at counting it?

Come in too low and someone will complain you've cut them up.

There is no initial altitude to enter the hold documented anywhere.

[robin]

First time I flew in the pattern looked empty then, just as I decided to proceed to finals I saw a glint of the sun on another aircraft a mile away then saw a mass of other aircraft queuing up behind.

It is quite difficult to see the aircraft in the pattern until you get quite close.

If the weather plays ball tomorrow I'll try it again.

[Echo Romeo]

soaringhigh, if you join say from the West, looking at the diagram, you would surely join the pattern at top left corner, NW. and should there be nothing in front of you, you would peel off, exit, the first time at reaching the peel off point?

There would be no need to do another full pattern.

From the blurb.Route to Pitsford and if necessary join the LH holding pattern not below 1000' qfe

[fernytickles]

If you make it in, and have the time, stop by our booth, A22 & say hi. I love having the opportunity to meet other Ppruners :ok:

[Whiskey Kilo Wanderer]

stop by our booth, A22

Hi Ferny,

I’m hoping to fly in tomorrow (Saturday). Can you confirm A22, as the info for Hall A on the Aero Expo list of exhibitors only goes up to A21?

Hope to catch up.

WKW

Edited: Found the answer - A21

[fernytickles]

Whiskey Kilo Wanderer,

Yes, we were told we were A21 originally, but while setting up our booth the other day, I noticed it was actually A22.

So yes, hangar A, and booth 21, cunningly disguised as A22 :)

[cessnapete]

Attended Sywell today, no problems with the arrival/departure procedures, as published, on a busy movement day.
Unfortunately the heavy hand of the CAA/Health and Safety/unthinking bureaucracy ?? has reached the presumeably irresponsible visiting aviators.
At these events half the reason for going is wandering around the aircraft parking area, admiring the varied and sometimes unusuall aircraft.
Today we were advised walking around the aircraft now not permitted, and buses provided to and from the show area.
If this is repeated at the PFA Rally I can see a lot less attendees.
Are pilots with their passengers now deemed too much of a risk around aircraft?
(even with a high vis. jacket course)

[sharpend]

Attended Sywell today, no problems with the arrival/departure procedures, as published, on a busy movement day.
Unfortunately the heavy hand of the CAA/Health and Safety/unthinking bureaucracy ?? has reached the presumeably irresponsible visiting aviators.
At these events half the reason for going is wandering around the aircraft parking area, admiring the varied and sometimes unusuall aircraft.
Today we were advised walking around the aircraft now not permitted, and buses provided to and from the show area.
If this is repeated at the PFA Rally I can see a lot less attendees.
Are pilots with their passengers now deemed too much of a risk around aircraft?
(even with a high vis. jacket course)
I agree Cessnapete. Moreover, we still get the idiots who turn up not having read the Notam or the joining instructions (or if they have, they ignore them). I spaced myself perfectly on finals to land on the hard and a fool cut inside me. The visibility was perfect, so he was either blind or bloody rude. I'll not go next year.

[muffin]

Is that why there were hardly any people in the parking area? I saw in one of the documents that you can camp by your aircraft, so I can see the bus transport idea breaking down when the drivers go home.

[cessnapete]

Unfortunately there will always be the odd occurrence of bad airmanship shown when so many aircraft attend. Even the simplest rules seem too difficult for some, calling "no. 2 or 3 0n Final " when it is clearly only required to call when no.1.
As mentioned on another thread, the generally poor RT of many UK recreational pilots is shown up at these events.
As for the ban on pilots in the parking area, I didn't notice any problems in the immensely busier Oshkosh visiting aircraft area last year!!

[austerwobbler]

I thought the mini buses dodging in and out the departing aircraft on the taxi ways was far more dangerous than pedestrians :\

Austerwobbler

[Curlytips]

I managed to make it in yesterday and was marshalled to just about as far away from the entrance as possible. I was thinking just that and started to trek off to the gate, only to be shouted out by a marshaller. "NOOO! YOU CAN'T WALK. READ THE NOTAM".

Said marshaller then got on same bus when it arrived and continued to go on about NOTAM. I am usually pretty good at spotting stuff, so was more than surprised (and a bit miffed at the attitude as I was a "customer"). So today I went through all 20 plus pages on Sywell's site, then on Skydemon, then on AIS - couldn't find a thing about walking/buses. Anyone else spot any info prior to arrival?

[BEagle]

Yesterday, there was a problem with the audio system in the Main Lecture Theatre at Sywell. As I was giving a seminar today, I brought my AOR wide band receiver along, in case there was some way of using it with the radio microphones direct into the theatre sound desk.

So as I approached Northampton on the A508, I listened in on 122.7 for amusement.

What a bunch of rank amateurism. A helicopter which blundered into the RW21 approach and started querying the aerodrome information was told that he had no approval to visit - so please vacate the area. Top marks, Sywell, if the beggar was that dim, telling him to go away was the only safe solution.

If there was a 'Dick of the Day' award for the least compliant radio call, it must go to the pilot with the 'Exam' call sign who clearly hadn't bothered to read the NOTAMs. I wonder whether he passed whatever test he was doing...:uhoh:

The procedures are very simple, so why do people STILL screw up?

And NEVER call a ground-pounder "Sir" this side of the Atlantic!

[djtaylor]

One of the marshallers told me that we were not permitted to walk to and from our aircraft because of the CAA had so ruled because of the helicopter races. The logic presumably being the risk assessment outcome.

[Echo Romeo]

Well next year I hope the organisers don't book the racing helicopters, because one of the main attractions is for visiting pilots, spotters and all, to walk around the many aircraft. Once again it seems H&S gone mad :ugh:

[cessnapete]

Correct, the ban imposed by the insurers of the Helicopter Games.
ATC knew nothing of the ban until late Fri, so no Notam.
Hopefully a one off.

[Flyingmac]

There was at least one episode of mutiny when twenty or so crew stormed the barricades and made their way on foot to their aircraft.:ok:

[austerwobbler]

So we pilots couldn't go airside because of the heli raceing ? But all the hangers on at the heli raceing could all stand out side there tent next to the race track and watch it :ugh:
" must have had special insurance cover for them then ":=
Austerwobbler

[BEagle]

As one whose interest in helicopters (apart from many tedious wet winching sessions in the RAF) peaked in about 1960 withThe Whirlybirds, Chuck Martin, 'P.T.' Moore and N975B, I wonder at the wisdom of combining 'Heli UK 2015' with AeroExpo.

Those 'orrible clattering things dangling buckets (or whatever) made conversation with guests quite awkward at times, as did the absurdly over-the-top PA. "I do wish they'd just bugger off somewhere else!", as one guest put it.

But that was as naught compared with the stupidly loud 'music' which drowned out the gyroplane display...

Come on, AeroExpo - set some limits!

[muffin]

I have to agree with Beagle and I am a helicopter pilot as well as fixed wing (in fact I went there by heli as it was much simpler). It was too noisy, too close and the commentary was so hyped up it was ridiculous. I have manned many stands at many shows, and if I had been trying to work near that I would have been furious. Not the right place for that sort of show.

[Curlytips]

Glad to hear that I hadn't missed something. But it then makes me concerned that marshallers attitude was thus. I don't enjoy being slagged off - and I'm by no means precious.

Despite all that, purpose of visit was served - cheap oil for the year was bought, 2 Garmin updated, super insurance quote received, so I really can't complain.

If anyone official is reading this, I obviously sent the oil home by road as to carry it aboard would contravene...........?

;)

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Which is why I stopped going to the PFA rally by air. Too many times, I was cut up on downwind or even final by people who clearly had not looked at any instructions and often heard people calling up for landing instructions on the radio.

+1. The last time i flew into to the PFA/LAA Rally, I was surprised that nobody collided on finals, so many differing types/speeds and all pilots desperate not to have to go around to join the extended pattern again, even if it meant leaving it to the very last minute! Even if YOU read the AIC and memorise its contents, you can guarantee that some halfwit won't bother to..

Bl00dy dangerous in my opinion :sad:

[Fostex]

The last time I took off from Aero Expo ( or was it the Jubilee airshow ) at Sywell, it was akin to scrambling fighters in the Battle of Britain. The field was closed until the airshow finished and on re-opening everyone wanted to leave at once... and everyone did. Aircraft of different types, and hence speeds were departing concurrently on both the grass and hard runways with very tight spacing. It made for an exciting climb out and I was glad when I left the circuit, and the excitement, behind!

I didn't find arrival that bad, but again you are relying on other pilots to be familiar with the published arrival procedure.

[soaringhigh650]

The procedures are very simple, so why do people STILL screw up?

Is it? 26 pages long....

[Flying_Anorak]

I flew in on Sat with an experienced pilot on board to help with the nav and look out. I agree the basics were simple but not the way it was presented in 20+ pages - thank god for printers at work!

Also, the size of the hold box at Pitsford was not clear - I was one of the last ones in and even then there were varying interpretations of how far out from the reservoir to fly each leg.

[cessnapete]

The basic joining procedures are very simple. But it is obviously sensible that pilots who feel they can't cope, stay away.

[sharpend]

The basic joining procedures are very simple.

Yup, the procedures are simple. But many don't read them and what is the use of a slot time if people don't keep to it. Worse still, Sywell publish that if you are late just come anyway. As I said, what on earth is the point of a slot time?

[cessnapete]

I would imagine slots are required to restrict the planned toal number of of arrivals. CAA?
On the day there are always many less than the slot list, due to the vagaries of the weather and a/c availability etc.
And of course, many pilots book a slot for each day and then only use the one that fits, for the reasons above.
I've always found the Sywell ATC very helpful in reallocating slots for cancellations etc.
Contrary to the doom merchants re the arrival procedures, any problems I have had are caused by non adherence to the Notam, and rubbish airmanship,not total numbers arriving, this also applies to the LAA rally.

[sharpend]

I would imagine slots are required to restrict the planned toal number of of arrivals. CAA?
Contrary to the doom merchants re the arrival procedures, any problems I have had are caused by non adherence to the Notam, and rubbish airmanship,not total numbers arriving, this also applies to the LAA rally.

Correct! But no matter the rules, there will always be idiots who ignore them or have not bothered to read the NOTAM. By choosing to go 'no RT' Sywell make the problem worse. More control and less free for all may sort out those who are undisciplined.

[GK430]

Well the Xwind was over my limit on Friday, however a friend kindly drove and I re-booked to fly in on Saturday a few minutes prior to the late morning cut off with very few aircraft booked at the same time.
Shopped and met folks on Friday and the drive was not bad at all.
Checked Saturday's booking and instantly cancelled as other aircraft booked on every minute leading up to and after my slot and even one at the very same minute.
Decided with only one set of Mk I eyeballs to look out round Pitsford it was best to blink.

[BossEyed]

Also, the size of the hold box at Pitsford was not clear - I was one of the last ones in and even then there were varying interpretations of how far out from the reservoir to fly each leg.

But... There's a map, using a Google Earth image! (http://www.aeroexpo.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/AeroExpo-2015-Flight-Procedures.pdf) How much clearer could it be?!

[cessnapete]

GK430. For the reasons given previously the published slot list bears no relation to the actual a/c arrivals. I flew in Sat 1200 ish Pitsford direct to downwind. Amazing visibility and no problems.

[MrAverage]

We had no problem flying the correct hold having studied high def detailed maps in conjunction with the one on the procedures instructions. The trouble was partly caused by the extremely poor definition of the published map, which many pilots obviously took as an excuse not to fly it accurately.

[Flying_Anorak]

Thats my point exactly - a small google map image led to some interesting interpretations on Sat - some virtually over the reservoir others on 747 size circuits around it!