Finals?

[soay]

The thread Reducing flaps on short finals (http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/560508-reducing-flaps-short-finals.html) makes me wonder where "finals" comes from and why it is so prevalent on the radio. That term isn't used in either the Pooleys or AFE PPL manuals (which is as far back as my training goes), nor CAP413, which all use "final" - presumably as a contraction of "final approach". Does anybody know where "finals" comes from?

[9 lives]

Well it does not come from North America, 'cause we don't say it here!

I don't know either, and I would make more fun of it, other than a senior British pilot who frequents these pages to the benefit of all, and whom I really respect says it, so it can't be all bad! ;)

[Loggerheads]

My understanding is that Finals is a military term?

[Jetblu]

Step turn is right, English originated from Great Britain and the word 'finals' is English and used here. Generally speaking, it's 'finals to land' or 'finals 27R'

Also commonly 'cleared to land' in an ATZ

[rans6andrew]

As my flying instructor put it "students at university do finals, pilots fly a final approach, any pilot that calls finals on the radio is talking b0ll0x". CAP413 would seem to agree.

Rans6.......

[fujii]

This was covered in another thread a couple of months back. The conclusion was it is bulls hit.

[9 lives]

So Fujii, that's final? ;)

[TheiC]

At the College of Air Traffic Control we were instructed that a runway has only one final approach. "Finals" was regarded as vulgar, and reprimands followed.

Fujii And Andrew are right.

[soay]

'finals to land' or 'finals 27R'
That doesn't help with the derivation as it implies there's more than one final approach being flown.

[Heston]

OFFS all of you!!!

[Camargue]

Interesting. I learnt on a UAS and finals were called when you were straight in / lined up on the runway (height 400ft).
problem though with the size of circuits lots of people fly, finals could be anything from 1000ft up and 5 miles out.....

However I have used it ever since (25 years) and nobody has ever said anything. If I am flying a straight in approach I call long finals when I begin the descent from circuit height

[Crash one]

This stupid pointless chestnut gets hauled out once again. The fact as I see it is some people are not told that there is no plural to a final (only) approach so they utter "finals" because it falls off the tongue easily. Then pedantic stuffed shirts jump up & down squealing like big girls, "final, final!"
Does it really matter?
I'm going to start saying "Last bit".

[dobbin1]

I'm going to start saying "Last bit".

I prefer "pre-crunch". Expected ATC response "cleared for the crunch and slide"

[soay]

pedantic stuffed shirts jump up & down squealing like big girls, "final, final!" Does it really matter?
No need to get nasty! I wasn't criticising anybody, just trying to find out where the term comes from. You're of an older generation than me, so was it on the syllabus when you learned to fly?

[Pace]

It is sometime back since I used that term being confined to CAS. The important bits are "cleared for XYZ " and a landing clearance and it is always the landing clearance which determines your landing.

Final or finals was always an indication to other aircraft and tower or who ever was giving a FIS that you are in the final stages before landing.

Sadly the term was abused and used to being 6 miles out on the runway centreline :ugh: rather than a specific distance from the threshold to indicate that you are about to land and that needs to be clarified to have any real meaning with death by hanging if you panic call it at 6 miles out :E

Pace

[2 sheds]

Missing the point of the OP's question again!

soay - It was an old military habit that had no obvious derivation other than the result of sloppy speech and lack of logic - though it did find its way into print. q.v. Cliff Richards and Dean's Cross!

(And "final" and "long final" are defined!)

2 s

[soay]

Thanks 2 sheds.

[cockney steve]

To me, not being a pilot,:O "finals" signifies "final checks, final adjustments and final preparations to final approach to runway"

Compared with some of the tortuous misuse of the English Language, the "s" is a minor transgression that makes perfect sense.

[fujii]

CS, to me as a pilot and now retired tower controller "finals," although seemingly minor, is one of those little things which trigger a small alert in a controller's mind and makes the controller treat the pilot a little differently. The pilot may not notice but it is there. Of course if operating on speaker rather than headset, everyone in the tower gets to hear it usually accompanied by some comment.

Another example was British Airways pilots adding "the" to the callsign. E.g. "The Speedbird 11." Also hard to get them to say "eleven."

For a bit of drift, would any other controller care to mention any small cues that make you treat pilots a little differently?

[Pace]

A lot of this stuff is steeped in history. The overhead join which I consider to not always be the best or safest join went back to the days of non radio aircraft when you needed to join overhead to get a view of the runway layouts and signal square.

The same with ATC chatter! Things have moved on from the days when there were limited access to navaids! Now with most aircraft sporting GPS units its more easy to give accurate distance to the threshold so pilots can call their distance out on the centre line.

As they say nothing in aviation changes quickly

[Crash one]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crash one
pedantic stuffed shirts jump up & down squealing like big girls, "final, final!" Does it really matter?
No need to get nasty! I wasn't criticising anybody, just trying to find out where the term comes from. You're of an older generation than me, so was it on the syllabus when you learned to fly?


I wasn't trying to be nasty. This question has been brought up often. Incidentally I use the singular Final myself only because I was taught that plural is bad form.
I also use "Over" occasionally, can't help that, ex mil thing.
I am surprised that air traffic people judge pilots by whether or not they use the plural.

[patowalker]

Origin of calling 'Final' is this true? [Archive] - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/archive/index.php/t-121779.html)

[9 lives]

I am surprised that air traffic people judge pilots by whether or not they use the plural.

Me... Not so surprised. But I'm one of those people who cringe when someone says: "Bring this over there", or "drive a plane". Our language is a tool for communication. I suspect that ATC is most likely to judge how pilots us their communication tool first - what else do they have to go by?

[fujii]

It's not so much the plural but the thought that this pilot probably hasn't looked at phraseology for a while and what else is he or she not up to date with.

It's a bit like when driving, some times for some reason you pay extra attention to a certain other car. It's just part of the scanning, projecting, planning, implementing and monitoring loop which is drilled into controllers.

[longer ron]

The best thing about saying 'Finals' is that it very quickly identifies the pedants
:)

At a foreign gliding club some years ago - one of our members used to announce 'Downwind Leg Over' which usually raised a chuckle (it was the only circuit/pattern call we made),most of us through laziness just called 'Downwind' :)

When I flew power - I most definitely said 'Finals' - purely because it sounds waaaaay cooler than 'Final' - which grammatically sounds plane wrong :)

[Sillert,V.I.]

I've always thought 'final approach' to be technically incorrect - at least, most of the time. Surely you only make one 'final approach' in a lifetime :E.

[fujii]

Cooler! Really? "Over," we're you using ship to shore radio telephones?
Finals and over are (aero)plane wrong as well as being plain wrong.

It just goes back to being unfamiliar with phraseology and why controllers use these cues as a warning. Like the day I instructed an aircraft on short final to go around, he did a left orbit. Still I suppose he did two finals for the one approach.

[2 sheds]

short final


......Ahem!

[360BakTrak]

I still, after 20 years, haven't found this mythical 'short' final! :E:}

[Pace]

there are some :ugh: which pilots say one of my hates is " 6442 coming down" yuck I am sure there are other home made bits which others note :E

[Jetblu]

There are some classics about. I remember flying to Le Touq many years ago with a female passenger who was also wearing headsets and listening to the radio transmissions. French female controller "G -ABCD cleared to land, check gear." Female passenger "Do you know her? Why does she want to check your gear?" :)

[ETOPS]

I think it goes way further back than that to WW2.

The view of the runway flare path was likened to a "funnel" so some would transmit "funnel" when the runway was in sight. This became transmuted into "final" and later (by some lazy types :rolleyes: ) into "finals"...

[longer ron]

'Funnels' was the normal call in those days :)

rgds - 'Lazy' and proud of it :)

[Pace]

I prefer landing strip than funnels :E but hang on isn't that used for something else :mad:???

[Jetblu]

I prefer a nice neat strip to execute my finals.

[Cusco]

CAP 413 RadioTelephony Manual Ed 21 April 2015 (4.52 page 23) uses the term 'Final' throughout.

That's good enough for me.

Cusco:ok:

[longer ron]

I prefer a nice neat strip to execute my finals.

Good for an 'overshoot' then ? :)

'Go around' just wouldn't work LOL

[Jetblu]

Oh I dunno. Could always go around for a back track. :)

[condor17]

Fuji , sorry to interject , but must defend the honour of most Ba aviators ...... ''The'' Speedbird was mostly BOAC ,or being posh on the Conc . Us BEA 'drivers' used Bealine , Albion , Shuttle , and being an old 'Naarfick' tractor driver with wings 'finals' tend slip out with great regularity ; and in 40+ years of proffessional aviating ....I've not yet been b+++++++++d by Perceived English speakers .
IIRC finals is 4 nm , short finals 2nm, long finals 6-8nm , but all that is open to debate , as it probably won't work on vfr light a/c , and my r/t licence exam was 44 years ago .
Either works for me , whether using my flight r/t lic. or my ground radio operators lic .
Speedbird 5611 always rolled of the tongue as five, six, one, one ....and with only the last 1/4 of my big time exposed to the US ..... I could never get used to their way of speaking numbers and always answered ..two , eight , three , heavy etc .
Had a chuckle yesterday when Golf - Alpha 'Whale' called downwind ...flown by a Scot as well .

rgds condor .

[Chuck Ellsworth]

To make yourself more professional you need to be wearing your hi-vis jacket when you call on " finals " so when you get out of your airplane everyone can see you. :E

[condor17]

Our local actively discourages hi-vis !