PPL training/Ownership Combination how please?

[wannabe-aviator]

Hi folks

So got my self all 9 EASA ground school done and dusted, I have been offered a couple of nice single aircraft to purchase am obviously not going to buy both but considering to buy at least one of them, my question is does the aircraft have to be registered with a FTO in order to do my Flight training on the aircraft or could I hire a private instructor to do the training with me, or is it basically a combination of both, and if this is indeed possible how would one go about it and any good recommendations in the London/Essex/Surrey/Herts Areas would be most welcomed.

Many safe landing folks
WA :ok:

[Level Attitude]

So got my self all 9 EASA ground school done and dustedFirst of all: Well Done!
You now have 2 years, from date of last exam pass, to get your Licence issued.

All training for Licences must be done 'under the auspices' of an ATO/RF so any Instructor you use must be employed by/supplied by an ATO/RF. I believe the aircraft will also need to be listed on the books of the same ATO/RF.

Which Aircraft? You need to ask yourself some questions:
Are you buying an aircraft just for the training, after which you will sell it; or do you want to learn in the aircraft you will be flying after gaining your Licence.
What type of flying are you intending after gaining your Licence?
Would only you (and your Instructor) be flying your aircraft, or would you want to 'earn' something from your investment by allowing the Flying School to use it with other students/members?

Ches Cole, CFI at FlyElstree, would be a good person to discuss all this with.
020 8953 6868
[email protected] ([email protected])

[dobbin1]

This question cropped up at our flying school recently. The answer is that the training must be done under the auspices of an ATO or RF, so a feral instructor won't do. There are also some restrictions on the aircraft, but if you stick to an EASA aircraft with no pilot maintenance and an engine that is not too old you should be okay. This is what the boss said about it after his research into the subject:-

The legality issue of training on an a private aircraft is quite complex. To make things worse there are differences between training on EASA and non-EASA aircraft. The basic position is that if someone pays for something in relation to a flight, the flight is no longer private, but either aerial work, public transport or commercial air transport. Pre-EASA it was the case that aircraft that operating under a Certificate of Airworthiness and only maintained to a standard appropriate for private use or aircraft that operate under a Permit to Fly could only be used for private flights. However, since the adoption of Regulation (EC) No. 2042/2003, EASA aircraft have been subject to European Continuing Airworthiness Regulations (commonly known as Part M). Operation under Part M allows private aircraft to be used for remunerated activity, provided that it is not a commercial air transport operation. Therefore, individuals are permitted to pay an instructor for training in their own private solely-owned or jointly-owned EASA aircraft. The critical bit here is “their own private solely-owned or jointly-owned” aircraft. The certificate of registration states the name of the registered owner. It is usual for a group owned aircraft to be registered to a named trustee. It is important to note that aircraft registered to a company are owned by that company and not by any director, employee or shareholder of the company. Things are far more complicated for non-EASA aircraft. See the attached documents.

Pre-EASA it was easy to tell if an aircraft was maintained as private as it held a Private Category C of A. This is no longer the case as there is now only one C of A type. For an aircraft to be maintained to transport standards there must not have been any pilot maintenance carried out since the last scheduled maintenance inspection and the last maintenance inspection must have been carried out by a licensed engineer or approved maintenance organisation and a Certificate of Release to Service issued. Additionally the engine must be within 120% of the manufacturers recommended life in accordance with CAP747 generic requirement no. 24.

[wannabe-aviator]

Hi LA

Thanks for that response and the heads up on Elstree its only 11 miles up the road from the humble abode which is a bonus will be giving Ches a call in the next couple of days.

reference the Aircraft type am looking at a couple of Cherokee 6 seater aircraft, basically I want to learn the aircraft back to front get my PPL using the aircraft because I intend to use it for commuting to the continent twice a month and maybe fly the mates and missus for a weekend get away to Southern France once every couple of months.

Basically I have no problems for the FTO to use the aircraft free of charge perhaps in exchange for them doing MX on the plane, my schedule is usually set up monthly so I would know exactly what days the aircraft is needed by me I think like 6 days a month only so that leaves the FTO to use it for 24 days a month free of charge.

Aircraft is EU registered both of them, but would look at putting them on the G-Reg as it will make things more easier for PPL and MX purposes.

From what Dubbins is stating it may well be hard to do what am thinking of doing so I hope Ches can advise and if any of you do think of anything else do let me know it would be most appreciated.

Many safe landings
WA:ok:

[Genghis the Engineer]

To be honest old chap, I think that you need a bit of a reality check.

A Cherokee 6 is a big aeroplane, generally with a fairly complex panel, and really more aeroplane than you want to be learning to fly in.

Also as a vanilla PPL holder, your success rate on flying to central/southern continent on fixed dates every month will be worse than 50%. Plus, you want some significant experience before you should be attempting long trips with multiple (probably fractious) passengers, who will push your workload and mistake-rate up quite a lot. Further, you need to build experience in long trips, just plain being airborne for that long, and flying with passengers.


There's no such thing as an EU registration - all registrations are national, and all aeroplanes with a CofA can fly internationally. It should be no big deal to operate cross borders with an aeroplane holding an EASA CofA.


In my opinion - do your PPL in something halfway to the sort of aeroplane you're interested in - say a PA28 or C172. Once you have the PPL, try doing the trip a couple of times in that on your own.

THEN, start thinking seriously about (a) owning, and (b) doing the trip with multiple passengers.

And don't let anybody use your aeroplane FOC unless you are married to them !


Don't let me put you off learning to fly, or doing long trips - but you are still early on the learning curve when you pass your PPL, and long trips in light aircraft tend to be slow and expensive affairs, even with a lot of experience (I have 4-figure hours, a commercial licence and an IR(R), and cancel or re-arrange around 50% of my planned business trips by light aircraft.)

G

[Big Pistons Forever]

^ What he said

[tecman]

Genghis has it right, and there are a couple of additional things I'd also consider.

First, it's my opinion that you'll be a better pilot having learned on a more modest aeroplane. I don't minimize the effort that we put into mastering the systems on more complex aircraft but these things are relatively easily added when you need them. My observation is that it's harder to instill good stick and rudder flying later on. In one cohort of trainees, I used to watch the performance of students who trained on a C-A150 relative to those who selected a PA28-181 as their initial platform. In almost all cases, I thought the C150 graduates turned out better, mainly because the extra power and more benign handling of the Archer simply did not expose trainees to the same level of butt clenching! When you can simply blast off you may not realise until it's too late what it takes to coax an underpowered (or fully-loaded) aeroplane out of a marginal strip at high density altitude. (And the Cherokee Six is even more generously endowed than the Archer).

That said, nearly anything is possible. I've seen people do their ab initio training on twins, Cirruses, ...you name it. But most likely you'll do better with a C150 or similar. If you want to really make yourself a better pilot forever, see if you can get some tailwheel time.

The second observation I'd pass on is one that was shared with me by a very experienced instructor when I presented myself as a new student. His comment was that it's a great mistake to assume that success in aviation will follow success in other walks of life. I don't think he was being personal (hope not) but his point was that we all start as novice pilots - whatever science, surgical, legal, .... knowledge we may possess. Confidence and ambition are great things, but it's important not to get ahead of yourself. There's a whole safety literature on well-heeled professionals buying fast/complex aircraft on which they have inadequate experience or proficiency. Google "fork tailed doctor killer" and read on.

[27/09]

I think there's a tremendous amount of benefit in learning to fly in the aircraft you intend to fly once you have your licence.

You'll have 50 or more hours of dual and solo experience under the watchful eye of an instructor. If he or she has done their job properly you'll know that aircraft back to front. You'll know the systems well and be well versed on fuel management especially in the PA32 (Cherokee 6) with 4 fuel tanks. Something you definitely won't get in a C150/2 or C172

In reality the only major difference between the PA32 and a PA28 is the constant speed prop and that's not that difficult to grasp. So far as any other gear (avionics etc) in the panel, the training on that can be covered as and when necessary, it won't require immediate attention. To start with there's really only the VHF radio to know about and there'll be one of those in any other aircraft anyway.

I have a bit of instructing experience and I'd be much more comfortable with a new PPL heading off in a PA32 that had trained in that aircraft than one who had just done the hours for a rating. The PA32 isn't that fast or complex and really has no vices. It's a good solid dependable aircraft. However it does require proper technique for take off and landing when fully loaded and especially on shorter grass strips. With the right instructor you will learn this as part of your PPL training

Genghis does make a good point about relying on being able to regularly complete long VFR cross country flights, especially for pilots with low cross country experience. This is an area you may need to consider and decide if your choice of aircraft is suitable.

If the timing of your trips is flexible with delays due to weather being acceptable then you might be OK otherwise you may need to think about an IFR capable aircraft. Perhaps the aircraft you're looking at are IFR equipped. The IFR option also means obtaining more qualifications past your PPL.

Good luck.

[wannabe-aviator]

Dear G and the rest

I appreciate the detailed input most insightful and informative, correct me if am wrong but the consensus seems to be that my plan in training using an owned aircraft is viable and possible but my choice of aircraft should be reconsidered to something smaller as mentioned before C172 or PA28.

Basically my trips into the continent are flexible as I am self employed and most trips are to Paris, Nice and the odd trip to Austria and Germany but obviously I wouldn't be flying my self on every trip as much as I would love to as I know the weather especially winter time isn't the most forgiven in Europe.

Do you know roughly the approximate fuel burn on a C172 compared to PA28 I know each particular engine and aircraft has its own performance parameters but am talking on an average basis, and which of the 2 is more suitable for my potential trips into the continent.

Thanks again for your input folks most appreciated and looking forwards to further input before I buy the aircraft as I would like to start training ASAP.

Many safe Landings
WA :ok:

[27/09]

I appreciate the detailed input most insightful and informative, correct me if am wrong but the consensus seems to be that my plan in training using an owned aircraft is viable and possible

I don't know the UK training rules but I'd say using using your own aircraft for your training should be no problem and this seems to be echoed by others. You have alluded to the fact that you'd be happy for the flying school to use the aircraft when your'e not flying it. There are several ways to manage the operation of the aircraft, I would get advice from others who have aircraft in similar circumstances to find out what will work best for you.

my choice of aircraft should be reconsidered to something smaller as mentioned before C172 or PA28.

I strongly disagree, providing the aircraft you have chosen (in this case a PA32 Cherokee 6) is the right one for your missions. In my experience a PPL who has learned to fly in a particular aircraft is far more competent and confident in that aircraft than someone who has done a type endorsement after gaining their licence. This especially the case with low hour pilots.

Why did you choose the PA32 to start with? Was it a case of I like the look of the aircraft or did it meet specific requirements like passenger seating or payload etc?

Before you decide on purchasing a particular aircraft you need to decide on what you want from that aircraft. Do you need speed? Do you need versatility? Do you need space/payload? Etc etc.

Perhaps a PA28 or C172 may be all you need. Bear in mind a four seat aircraft like your typical PA28 or C172 is four seats in name only. Generally you will not be able to fill the seats, fill the fuel tanks and baggage locker and still be able to meet the weight and balance limitations. This is where the likes of the PA32 comes into it's own. You might still only carry four people including the pilot but you can carry plenty of fuel and baggage and have a bit more space for the passengers.

Do you know roughly the approximate fuel burn on a C172 compared to PA28 I know each particular engine and aircraft has its own performance parameters but am talking on an average basis, and which of the 2 is more suitable for my potential trips into the continent.

The fuel burn on either will be very similar, but in my experience the PA28 is faster giving a slightly better mpg.

The speeds are not significantly different (5 to 10 knots) however on along trips my experience has been that the PA28 gives quite an advantage over the C172.

My choice between a PA28 and a C172 for cross country flight would be the PA28, they are generally faster, quieter and more comfortable. However YMMV (Your Mileage May Vary).

As I mentioned earlier you need to make your choice based on a range of factors.

Thanks again for your input folks most appreciated and looking forwards to further input before I buy the aircraft as I would like to start training ASAP.

I would suggest you make a start on your training at an establishment that is happy to continue your training in you own aircraft once have decided on what to buy.

One problem we all face when embarking on something new is we don't know what we don't know. I'm making assumption here that you probably fit into this category. There's a lot a value in taking some time to learn the ins and outs. This will help with choosing the right aircraft. Take your time look and listen, ask questions and beware of those who will only consider one brand.

[Genghis the Engineer]

No, that's not quite what I meant. In my opinion, you should get your basic learning out of the way in a school aeroplane before transitioning to buying and operating a higher performance single or twin once you have a bit of experience of doing these long trips. Similarly, build up some touring experience before doing it with passengers.

The PA28 and C172, whilst they look quite different are both pretty similar to operate. They are both families of aeroplanes rather than discrete types - but a typical 160hp or 180hp fixed gear variant of either (or my personal preference - a Grumman AA5) will probably burn around 35 litres/hr of AVGAS at 90-110kn to which you can add hangarage/parking at £200-£600pm depending upon location, £2kish per year insurance, and another £10ish/hr maintenance, and £2-£5k.pa for the annual. Or just rent by the hour for ~£140-£180 from a school. Also look at syndicate shares, which can get you into ownership surrounded by experienced people, and beyond ~30hrs.pa can start to be significantly cheaper than renting. (Just about anything is cheaper than sole ownership - which is more a "lifestyle " decision than a pragmatic one.)


Basically, I am recommending learning, building up a bit of experience, and then buying and planning use as long distance personal transport. And, find a good school who will support you through all of that. Buying before you finish your licence is feasible - but may saddle you with what turns out to be the wrong aeroplane. I certainly doubt that it will save you money.

Also be aware that aeroplanes exist very much in a buyers market. It is very easy to find an aeroplane to buy (tougher, admittedly if you want something very specific) , but a lot lot tougher usually to sell it again.

G

[ChickenHouse]

Never let hurry take a seat aboard!

There are many things in this discussion I would like to add some friendly thoughts. It is a long brain way from a stage of theory exam passed to real piloting and I doubt anybody is able to determine later flight profiles. Given this most possible lack I would not stop people from dreaming, but make them aware they are dreaming. Which is perfectly ok, until you start spending money or threatening others.

Having had training in C150, A210 and PA28 during my initial hours, I did jump at about half way to C172, because at that stage probability was very high to own such directly after passing license. But, I agree that learning the basics should be done on a forgiving small plane with enough room to adopt your butt to the art of flying. A PA32 is a too big bird to learn to fly, my humble opinion.

I do not really comment on the idea of letting others use your aircraft, especially the one you are training on, but only because I do not know wether you shared your first girlfriend and if you were so lucky to convert her to a wife, still sharing her.

I would assume you will change your flight profile after license and I also assume it will take quite some time after license, before you are an able host for Pax you take. My advice will be - take your time and learn on the small ATO planes, maybe changing to PA28/C172 in late training, buy a PA28/C172 if you can afford it and really learn stepwise what it takes to be an owner (unless money does not matter) and even more important, learn what you need without the burden of having chosen wrong, too much and too early. If you find out after a year on a PA28/C172 with real world xcountry experience that you need a PA32 and can afford it, just sell the first plane and buy a bigger.

One word in the end, after having lost a friend with his family on only a couple of hours after license was issued - take your time and learn, before you take up passengers.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I tell anyone who asks to get their PPL before buying an airplane. The original poster is at the "don't know what you don't know" stage.

Once you have the license you will have a better idea of what you like. An extreme example of this was a fellow I knew who was all set to buy a 6 place tourer when he heeded the advice to wait until he got his license. It turned out his wife hated flying but he got keen on aerobatics and ended up buying a Pitts.

The other elephant in the room is that flight training is set up to pass the flight test. This unfortunately doesn't prepare you especially well for real world A to B flying so after the flight test if you buy a serious touring airplane you need to find an experienced mentor pilot to teach you all the tips and tricks needed to safely and efficiently get from A to B

[mykul10]

Hi Dobbin,

I'm looking into this question (again). Do you have any ref docs to go to? Do you know if there are different rules for initial training for licence/rating vs renewals?

Muchos grazias

[pistongone]

I have a few hours on PA32-300's and no one seems to have mentioned the fact it is not really designed for bashing circuits. Bad mixture management could see your fuel bill up in the £130/hr region and possible problems with the engine due to bad management. In the cruise expect 60ltrs/hr, thats still a lot of fuel for circuit bashing before factoring in maint etc? Possibly when the QX's come along it might work, but as I see no financial advantage, but possibly many disadvantages, why try to learn to run before you can walk?