Jetstar Starting. Chief seeks Pay to Fly Captains?

[sleazystar]

We have all been waiting in anticipation for Jetstar Hong Kong to start and from what I am hearing that will be very soon.

I myself am looking for an option to my current job over the boarder at Shenzhen Airlines. I fly the A320 and have a Hong Hong ATPL and licence. I get all my updates from a friend that knows a pilot at Jetstar Hong Kong. She informs me that the Jetstar Chief Pilot intends to turn the Airline into a Pay to Fly airline, and any Co-pilot wanting to get a captaincy there has to stay on Co-pilot money for a long time to pay for the conversion training. This is paying to fly in my opinion and this scam is the lowest practice in the airline industry ever devised by the bean counters and corporate management wannabes.

My question is; is this even legal in Hong Kong and is this normal practice for other Qantas group airlines to practice these tactics? I for one don’t want to go from a good airline with high monthly remuneration (admittedly living in China) to one that employs this most disgraceful method.

With all of the high profile accidents worldwide due to the inexperience of pilots (in particular ones that paid to get an airline job) these days and the severe pilot shortage in Asia, will this Chief pilots plan pay off or is he going to cause the Airline to fail before it even starts?

What are your opinions? Should Co-pilots need to pay to be Captains in this market? I know what my answer is.:mad:

[sleazystar]

I fly with them every day. Paying to fly cant teach what we learnt through years of experience.

Plenty of evidence supports the fact that experience counts. Just look at the policy changes in the USA after some many low time crashes over the years. Companies that require the pilots to Pay to fly are exploiting people and it has to stop. Do you support this Heliport?

San Francisco Plane Crash: Pilot Had 43 Hours Flying Boeing 777 - ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/US/san-francisco-plane-crash-pilot-43-hours-flying/story?id=19598352)

Rising number of inexperienced pilots may lead to more crashes (http://theconversation.com/rising-number-of-inexperienced-pilots-may-lead-to-more-crashes-39593)

Even the pilots pay on some low-cost flights - News & Advice - Travel - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/travel/news-and-advice/even-the-pilots-pay-on-some-lowcost-flights-9028635.html)

Pilot inexperience a potential factor in budget airline crashes - Carter Capner Law (http://www.cartercapner.com.au/blog/pilot-training-experience-potential-air-safety-risks/)

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2gjyif

[DropKnee]

I suppose if one is silly enough to pay for a Capt. upgrade. Than one gets what one deserves.
I will not be flying on Jet Star anything.

[AQIS Boigu]

Just have a look down the road in 'nam - Vietjet is full of P2F co-pilots and now they also charge for the command upgrade.

[Shot Nancy]

Years ago a bunch of Jetscab Asia Fos based in Singapore flew in the LHS wearing 4 bars on Fo pay for many months just because the company said they would not pay them Captain pay.
Doesn't make it right but with more and more people out there willing to do it for less makes it hard.
The HKG ****fight will get some takers no doubt.

[Flying Lawyer]

sleazystar

With great respect, the Asiana crash at SFO is not an example of inexperienced pilots or PTF.

The PF had almost 10,000 hrs (almost 4000 PIC).
The FO/Instructor had more than 12,000 hrs (more than 9,000 PIC).
The Observer/relief FO had more than 4,500 hrs (almost 1500 PIC.)

Causal factors included (the perils of?) increased automation and consequent lack of current hand-flying experience.

Please do not misinterpret the above as supporting PTF.

[Metro man]

There is an interesting article on page 46 of the May issue of Flying Magazine (American) concerning pilot experience levels. The author looked at accidents and the level of experience the pilot had before joining the airline concerned.

Whilst the pilots were reasonably experienced, they had joined airlines at very low total times and most of the hours logged were spent watching the aircraft fly itself on autopilot.

I flew two sectors yesterday and logged almost ten hours, of which only a few minutes were spent with a high workload or hand flying. Whilst 3000 hours of this would categorise a pilot as experienced, it would only be the equivalent of a couple of hundred hours of real flying in a piston twin.

The time for a pilot to build basic flying skill is before flying for an airline because afterwards they will only get weaker.

[deptrai]

Metro man, several European legacy carriers with excellent safety records have a long and successful history of hiring cadets with no other flying experience. The military in most countries does the same. Part of the reasoning is, they want to control all aspects of training, from scratch; it's easier to train someone to the standards you require, than to re-train people who learned bad habits (or figure out what bad habits they may have learned, when you didn't train them). The cadet "zero to hero" bashing is a red herring, and turboprop/glider/banner towing/bush flying/ppl instructor/aerobatics skills are not required to become a safe (airline/fast jet/whatever) pilot.

Sorry for the thread drift, back on topic, pay to fly is an entirely different problem, whether for cadets or captains, and it becomes a safety problem when it is "pay to skew the selection process". Hard to prove but it is probably happening.

[AQIS Boigu]

200hr cadets work if appropriately TRAINED and exposed to lots of sectors on a regular basis for several years - operations such as KLM, BA, AF and LH 320/737 fleets are good examples.

200hr cadets babysitting the autopilot for several years followed by a 60 sector JFO course on a 777 in a well known checking airline with 1 sector per month of line flying post 60 sector check are not a good example.

Dragonair would have been a great place for these 200hr cadets to get some exposure but I guess due to internal politics and cost it will never happen.


Back to the topic...no P2F in HKG please...at least the cost of living for these P2F kids in 'nam and Indonesia is a lot less.

[pilotchute]

Deptrai,

What you say is correct but you miss a point. You said legacy carriers in EU. I can guarantee you most airlines with zero to hero cadets get nowhere near the quality training cadets at EU legacy airlines get.

[betpump5]

" I can guarantee you most airlines with zero to hero cadets get nowhere near the quality training cadets at EU legacy airlines get."

Pilotchute
Care to back up your "guaranteed " claims?

I assume u have been through the BA, Lufthansa and KLM cadet scheme and also the Singapore and Cathay Pacific scheme too? What an achievement.

[LapSap]

We have all been waiting in anticipation for Jetstar Hong Kong to start and from what I am hearing that will be very soon.


They can start all they like but they won't be going anywhere.
There are no slots.

[deptrai]

From a safety perspective, I think not only some legacy carriers, but Ryanair, Easyjet, and Norwegian also do well with "cadets", even those who pay for a type rating, which is borderline pay to fly. Lots of sectors as AQIS Boigu pointed out, and good supervision: A good training captain can teach, with a safety pilot. And unsurprisingly, in many places including China there is a huge demand for experienced Captains, and the salary is ok, even taking various hardships into account.

Now if some operator wants to pair "pay to fly cadets" with "pay to upgrade captains" that does sound like a recipe for trouble. Good luck to Jetstar HK (and Qantas)

[broadband circuit]

Good luck to Jetstar HK (and Qantas)

ahhhh..... no.

I don't wish them any good luck. They are an abomination, with their P2F mentality which should be permanently wiped from the earth.

A pox on them I say!

[Metro man]

As far as I remember, Lion Air had a "pay to upgrade" scheme a few years ago for experienced F/Os wanting to swap seats. I wonder how it went ?:rolleyes:

[Australopithecus]

Uhhhh...last month Qantas announced that they had sold all but one Jetstar HK aeroplane. They are already 150 million + in the hole, sounds like they have a douche bag CP. This is not a recipe for a happy life.

[Frogman1484]

As far as I remember, Lion Air had a "pay to upgrade" scheme a few years ago for experienced F/Os wanting to swap seats. I wonder how it went ?

Was that before the the Bali crash or the Surabaya one?:ok:

[PURPLE PITOT]

Sucks! :rolleyes:

[Gnadenburg]

The local pilot associations through HKALPA should put out a strong response to this ( if true ) through the media. It's not hard to connect the dots linking to a number of recent events.

HKCAD seems reactionary and publicity would have some effect. An effort in pushing back would at least handicap the race to the bottom. :ugh:

[FlyingChipmunk]

I have been downgraded to just that.

I don't see a problem with the MPL or similar cadet programs, but it REQUIRES an even MORE ROBUST training and line training program to get them up to speed.
There are MANY out there who have been on line for over a year and have great skills watching and wondering WTF the autopilot is going to do next. Non-standard RT and constantly asking ATC again and again to "say again please?" has become the norm here in Asia.
I really really need a pay raise or someone who has real experience next to me please.
Knock Knock anyone listening??

[Lowkoon]

Ask them to offer "pay to manage" CEO positions, and see what the response is. "oh, but we have to attract the best applicants..." and them point out their 'safety first' stance, asking why they don't want the best candidates in command of their aircraft. It will bite them. They will all be solemn faced, head bowed around the smoking hole in the ground, just like Fernandez, but never accept any personal responsibility for the result of their decisions.

[FlyingChipmunk]

Yes "iwishiwasupthere", been there done that all over OZ in my bug smasher, small turboprop and regional turboprop. The ingrained lessons and discipline are things no one can take away from you.
Sadly, I get TT2500hr guys telling me on a daily basis they are up for command in 6months and are fully ready for it.
Such is aviation - right place and right time

[pilotchute]

Betpump I said "most".

I have seen the rubbish churned out by schools in Malaysia, Indonesia and the Phillipines.

The cadets from Air China/Vietnam Airlines etc are sent to good schools in the west but on return all the good work is undone when they are sent to fly with local captains.

You managed to name pretty much all the exceptions.

[betpump5]

Flying chipmunk

non standard RT

Anyone who is not British fits this description.

[White None]

betpump: Re your
non standard RT - Anyone who is not British fits this description.

Totally biased, argumentative, elitist.... I bloody love it! :ok:

(Did I mention - correct?)

[giggerty]

Yep. Like "Fully Ready" I always hear from the British lads.
Makes as much sense as fully pregnant, or fully dead.

Don't think I've ever called partially ready. Maybe I should try it

[White None]

partiallly ready
Actually fairly accurately describes a lot of foreigner's and colonials, sitting there with sharpened Guava Halves ready to fight off HM Forces - didn't really work out back in the day either, did it?

[giggerty]

I thought you British types would be all up to speed on the English language. Seeing as how it's yours. It's just "fully " is superfluous and makes no sense at all. Why not say " absolutely 100% totally fully ready". That's better

Unfortunately the " fully ready " contagion has spread and now non native English speakers are using it and think they are making perfect sense.

Thread drift, I know

[Toruk Macto]

Ready in turn ? What's the options ? I'm ready out of turn ? I'm ready before my turn ?

[giggerty]

I get the " ready in turn" because it kind of makes sense I guess. I get the fully established, meaning you are established on both loc and Gs, but fully ready?? That's just embarrassing for anyone who speaks English as a first language.

The call is "ready" by the way. That's for all the non native English speakers who may have been confused.

[Dihedral1]

1-Th Brit expats always seem more British/correct when away from home, I was listening on Kensington High Street, fully ready, would probably have gone unnoticed as being grammatically incorrect..more so in Liverpool or Yorkshire - though I concede we are supposed to be professional aviators using prescribed terminology.
2- What I have noticed, particularly in SE Asia, is guys (pardon the pun) not being absolutely (fully:p) ready upon line up. Just yesterday an aircraft called ready for take-off and was given an immediate take-off, upon which, the crew announced they needed 1 min:ugh: So I surmise that as most of the ATC are not native English speakers the "fully" ready, is used to establish if chaps are almost ready or in a full state of readiness.

Back to the thread, yes have heard the JHK CP has ideas of setting up his own in-house P2F scheme, obviously it won't get far, unless Joyce, Ms Ho et al sign off, then again they have to find a way to recoup the $$$ lost thus far.
Surely HKCAD will have other ideas.

[Long Dong Silver]

Where is it written that Jetstar HK has got approval to start operations in Hong Kong?

[Girlfriend in Akoma]

Your argument is fully inconsistent.

If you think 'fully established' and 'ready in turn' are acceptable and 'fully ready' at the gate is not then you haven't thought this through.

Try 'localizer established' and 'established', 'ready' and 'ready'.

Of course what 'fully ready' implies is; 'the-doors-really-are-all-closed-now-and-the-tug-is-connected-can-we-go-please?!'

Now, will Jetstar HK ever be Established & Ready?...

[KABOY]

Of course what 'fully ready' implies is; 'the-doors-really-are-all-closed-now-and-the-tug-is-connected-can-we-go-please?!'


Full Definition of READY

1
a : prepared mentally or physically for some experience or action
b : prepared for immediate use <dinner is ready>
2
a : willingly disposed : inclined <ready to agree to his proposal>
b : likely to do something indicated <a house that looks ready to collapse>
3
: displayed readily and spontaneously <a ready wit>
4
: immediately available <had ready cash>

.....and if the doors are not, it would be ready in (insert number) minute/s!

Jetstar

[giggerty]

So Girlfriend let me get this straight.

You call "ready" when you are not yet ready,
But you call "fully ready" when you are "ready". Is this some sort of secret code you have with the controller that we are not privy too?

Why not call ready when you're ready, and nothing when you're not??

Jetstar? Is it happening?

[ACMS]

1/ yes there are some silly calls on the RT
2/ we all cheat advising ready ( for push ) when the doors are open and we expect to have them closed soonish, we ALL do it. :ok:

Like the Germans we need to get our towel down on the runway first otherwise we'll have to wait a bit longer......:}

Back to topic...


****** edited to keep "him" happy....******

[olster]

For those wishing to take their English to an advanced level, "Fully Ready" is a good example of tautology

Cheers

ps that means that the "Fully" is superfluous.

[broadband circuit]

Additionally, for those wishing to take their English to an advanced level, "momentarily" means "for a moment", not "in a moment" as some people mistakenly believe.

[RHEINHARD]

And awesome means awe inspiring. As in fantastic scenery or a sunrise over the Andes or, an incredible piece of life saving surgery.

[crwkunt roll]

I get all my updates from a friend that knows a pilot at Jetstar Hong Kong
What equipment they on Frank.........???

[Australopithecus]

Is Jetstar Hong Kong push worth it? (http://www.ejinsight.com/20150410-is-jetstar-hong-kong-push-worth-it/)

The writer outlines the hurdles and the outlook for this year (ie: forget it)

[White None]

"momentarily" means "for a moment", not "in a moment"

Yeah that always cracks me " I'll be ready Momentarily" ie

Ready!.. now I'm not.... Ready again... Hah! NOT (fooled you) etc

[spleener]

Fully awesome. Momentarily.

[Max Reheat]

Back to the thread...

This time last year there were 8 or 9 JHK A320s parked on the fringes of the airfield at Toulouse all 'cling filmed' and held together with speed tape. By February this year that number was down to 1.

We were told by people (presumably in the know) that the airframes had been sold to other customers.

For the pedantic "fully" contingent, I mean the cling film and not the aeroplane was being held together by speed tape!

On another note, the first time I remember hearing was 'fully' in this context was by LHR Delivery following our 5 minute call, their reply was our airways clearance followed by the request to "Call fully ready."

[Mach75]

That's awesome!

[Thunderbird4]

Excellent thread drift:

A moment is defined as 1/40th of an hour or 90 sec.

Just so we are all clear on the common terms used for short durations of time:

Shake - 10 nanoseconds
Jiffy - 1/60 or 1/50sec depending on which alternating power cycle you are using


On the flip side:
era - 100,000,000 years
eon - 500,000,000 years
back in the day - anytime prior to the hiring date of the 22 year old sitting next to you.

[LongTimeInCX]

Meeting with an old BA mate some years ago, and giving him a bit of a stir about the long sleeve Nigel's calling fully ready on the HongKong delivery freq, he explained it was, as Max Reheat indicated all LHR's fault.
He said over the years it had become the norm that pre ACARS PDC, when Nigel et al were ready to receive their departure clearance, they would call "Ready". They would then receive and read back their ATC clearance, and whilst not always told by LHR delivery to call back when "Fully Ready", both ATC and Nigel understood that when they were finally fully completely and awesomely ready for push back, a "Fully Ready" call was made and Nigel was sent to Ground/Ramp to request pushback of "THE Speedbird".

Unfortunately, such unnecessary verbiage has spread, and we now hear people crapping on like that in this part of the world too.

[Loopdeloop]

Navtech chart LHR 10-21 para 1.2.2

If you're not saying "Fully ready" in LHR then you're not in compliance with their regulations and yes, the same words were in the Jepp Charts. I've had to show said page to several oztronoughts over the years after being berated for my use of the word "fully" in London!

[bringbackthe80s]

My God. What have we become.

[mr did]

And why do people constantly say "altitude" before reading back their altitude in this town? Cant say I have ever heard of someone mistakenly climbing to FL5000 on departure.

[Loopdeloop]

This is much more fun!

[Bob Hawke]

This is the most incredible thread drift I have ever seen.