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Jetstar Starting. Chief seeks Pay to Fly Captains?

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Jetstar Starting. Chief seeks Pay to Fly Captains?

Old 26th Apr 2015, 12:32
  #1 (permalink)  
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Jetstar Starting. Chief seeks Pay to Fly Captains?

We have all been waiting in anticipation for Jetstar Hong Kong to start and from what I am hearing that will be very soon.

I myself am looking for an option to my current job over the boarder at Shenzhen Airlines. I fly the A320 and have a Hong Hong ATPL and licence. I get all my updates from a friend that knows a pilot at Jetstar Hong Kong. She informs me that the Jetstar Chief Pilot intends to turn the Airline into a Pay to Fly airline, and any Co-pilot wanting to get a captaincy there has to stay on Co-pilot money for a long time to pay for the conversion training. This is paying to fly in my opinion and this scam is the lowest practice in the airline industry ever devised by the bean counters and corporate management wannabes.

My question is; is this even legal in Hong Kong and is this normal practice for other Qantas group airlines to practice these tactics? I for one donít want to go from a good airline with high monthly remuneration (admittedly living in China) to one that employs this most disgraceful method.

With all of the high profile accidents worldwide due to the inexperience of pilots (in particular ones that paid to get an airline job) these days and the severe pilot shortage in Asia, will this Chief pilots plan pay off or is he going to cause the Airline to fail before it even starts?

What are your opinions? Should Co-pilots need to pay to be Captains in this market? I know what my answer is.
sleazystar is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2015, 13:18
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I fly with them every day. Paying to fly cant teach what we learnt through years of experience.

Plenty of evidence supports the fact that experience counts. Just look at the policy changes in the USA after some many low time crashes over the years. Companies that require the pilots to Pay to fly are exploiting people and it has to stop. Do you support this Heliport?

San Francisco Plane Crash: Pilot Had 43 Hours Flying Boeing 777 - ABC News

Rising number of inexperienced pilots may lead to more crashes

Even the pilots pay on some low-cost flights - News & Advice - Travel - The Independent

Pilot inexperience a potential factor in budget airline crashes - Carter Capner Law

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2gjyif
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Old 26th Apr 2015, 14:20
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I suppose if one is silly enough to pay for a Capt. upgrade. Than one gets what one deserves.
I will not be flying on Jet Star anything.
DropKnee is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2015, 14:30
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Just have a look down the road in 'nam - Vietjet is full of P2F co-pilots and now they also charge for the command upgrade.
AQIS Boigu is offline  
Old 26th Apr 2015, 15:24
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Angry

Years ago a bunch of Jetscab Asia Fos based in Singapore flew in the LHS wearing 4 bars on Fo pay for many months just because the company said they would not pay them Captain pay.
Doesn't make it right but with more and more people out there willing to do it for less makes it hard.
The HKG shitfight will get some takers no doubt.
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Old 26th Apr 2015, 16:02
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sleazystar

With great respect, the Asiana crash at SFO is not an example of inexperienced pilots or PTF.

The PF had almost 10,000 hrs (almost 4000 PIC).
The FO/Instructor had more than 12,000 hrs (more than 9,000 PIC).
The Observer/relief FO had more than 4,500 hrs (almost 1500 PIC.)

Causal factors included (the perils of?) increased automation and consequent lack of current hand-flying experience.

Please do not misinterpret the above as supporting PTF.
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Old 26th Apr 2015, 23:29
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There is an interesting article on page 46 of the May issue of Flying Magazine (American) concerning pilot experience levels. The author looked at accidents and the level of experience the pilot had before joining the airline concerned.

Whilst the pilots were reasonably experienced, they had joined airlines at very low total times and most of the hours logged were spent watching the aircraft fly itself on autopilot.

I flew two sectors yesterday and logged almost ten hours, of which only a few minutes were spent with a high workload or hand flying. Whilst 3000 hours of this would categorise a pilot as experienced, it would only be the equivalent of a couple of hundred hours of real flying in a piston twin.

The time for a pilot to build basic flying skill is before flying for an airline because afterwards they will only get weaker.
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Old 27th Apr 2015, 05:55
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Metro man, several European legacy carriers with excellent safety records have a long and successful history of hiring cadets with no other flying experience. The military in most countries does the same. Part of the reasoning is, they want to control all aspects of training, from scratch; it's easier to train someone to the standards you require, than to re-train people who learned bad habits (or figure out what bad habits they may have learned, when you didn't train them). The cadet "zero to hero" bashing is a red herring, and turboprop/glider/banner towing/bush flying/ppl instructor/aerobatics skills are not required to become a safe (airline/fast jet/whatever) pilot.

Sorry for the thread drift, back on topic, pay to fly is an entirely different problem, whether for cadets or captains, and it becomes a safety problem when it is "pay to skew the selection process". Hard to prove but it is probably happening.
deptrai is offline  
Old 27th Apr 2015, 06:48
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200hr cadets work if appropriately TRAINED and exposed to lots of sectors on a regular basis for several years - operations such as KLM, BA, AF and LH 320/737 fleets are good examples.

200hr cadets babysitting the autopilot for several years followed by a 60 sector JFO course on a 777 in a well known checking airline with 1 sector per month of line flying post 60 sector check are not a good example.

Dragonair would have been a great place for these 200hr cadets to get some exposure but I guess due to internal politics and cost it will never happen.


Back to the topic...no P2F in HKG please...at least the cost of living for these P2F kids in 'nam and Indonesia is a lot less.

Last edited by AQIS Boigu; 27th Apr 2015 at 07:09.
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Old 27th Apr 2015, 06:52
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Deptrai,

What you say is correct but you miss a point. You said legacy carriers in EU. I can guarantee you most airlines with zero to hero cadets get nowhere near the quality training cadets at EU legacy airlines get.
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Old 27th Apr 2015, 08:50
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" I can guarantee you most airlines with zero to hero cadets get nowhere near the quality training cadets at EU legacy airlines get."

Pilotchute
Care to back up your "guaranteed " claims?

I assume u have been through the BA, Lufthansa and KLM cadet scheme and also the Singapore and Cathay Pacific scheme too? What an achievement.
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Old 27th Apr 2015, 09:05
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We have all been waiting in anticipation for Jetstar Hong Kong to start and from what I am hearing that will be very soon.
They can start all they like but they won't be going anywhere.
There are no slots.
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Old 27th Apr 2015, 09:14
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From a safety perspective, I think not only some legacy carriers, but Ryanair, Easyjet, and Norwegian also do well with "cadets", even those who pay for a type rating, which is borderline pay to fly. Lots of sectors as AQIS Boigu pointed out, and good supervision: A good training captain can teach, with a safety pilot. And unsurprisingly, in many places including China there is a huge demand for experienced Captains, and the salary is ok, even taking various hardships into account.

Now if some operator wants to pair "pay to fly cadets" with "pay to upgrade captains" that does sound like a recipe for trouble. Good luck to Jetstar HK (and Qantas)
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Old 27th Apr 2015, 09:47
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Good luck to Jetstar HK (and Qantas)
ahhhh..... no.

I don't wish them any good luck. They are an abomination, with their P2F mentality which should be permanently wiped from the earth.

A pox on them I say!
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Old 27th Apr 2015, 10:18
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As far as I remember, Lion Air had a "pay to upgrade" scheme a few years ago for experienced F/Os wanting to swap seats. I wonder how it went ?
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Old 27th Apr 2015, 10:28
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Uhhhh...last month Qantas announced that they had sold all but one Jetstar HK aeroplane. They are already 150 million + in the hole, sounds like they have a douche bag CP. This is not a recipe for a happy life.
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Old 27th Apr 2015, 14:42
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As far as I remember, Lion Air had a "pay to upgrade" scheme a few years ago for experienced F/Os wanting to swap seats. I wonder how it went ?
Was that before the the Bali crash or the Surabaya one?
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Old 27th Apr 2015, 18:37
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Sucks!
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Old 28th Apr 2015, 00:36
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The local pilot associations through HKALPA should put out a strong response to this ( if true ) through the media. It's not hard to connect the dots linking to a number of recent events.

HKCAD seems reactionary and publicity would have some effect. An effort in pushing back would at least handicap the race to the bottom.
Gnadenburg is online now  
Old 28th Apr 2015, 01:22
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Professional Babysitter

I have been downgraded to just that.

I don't see a problem with the MPL or similar cadet programs, but it REQUIRES an even MORE ROBUST training and line training program to get them up to speed.
There are MANY out there who have been on line for over a year and have great skills watching and wondering WTF the autopilot is going to do next. Non-standard RT and constantly asking ATC again and again to "say again please?" has become the norm here in Asia.
I really really need a pay raise or someone who has real experience next to me please.
Knock Knock anyone listening??
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