Re-validating expired ATPL Theory exams

[chris2205]

Hi everyone,

I did my ATPL theory exams with Bristol ground school over 10 years ago (Highly recommend them by the way). I passed them all really well (94% average) and then went on to do an FAA CPL/IR then converted at Airways in Exeter to JAA.

I guess it's obvious that flying didn't work out for me, but it's a long story and I'm not here to bore you.

The question I have is regarding the ground exams, I realise that they have long expired and was hoping that somebody could let me know the best way of re-validating them?

Thank you for any information you can give!!

[ford cortina]

Depending on what licence you have and its validity, I would have thought you need to sit some or even all your exams again.

[macflea]

hi chris ,

good question , i am in the same situation , my atpl exams expiring next month .
i converted my uk jaa cpl to an easa cpl last year without any problems and its valid for life now so its says , but once my atpl exams expire i asume my cpl exams will expire, so a bit confused , will be interested to hear peoples replies.

cheers

[chris2205]

Hi, thanks for the replies so far, I have the feeling I will need to resit the whole lot! Would be nice to hear if anyone has ever had a similar situation. Hopefully Macflea, you will be in a better position than me and not need to re-sit the whole lot?

Thanks again!

[Stn120]

According to Air Law, an ATPL(A) never expires, it is valid for life. All that expires are Medicals, Type ratings, IR's, ME rating etc. I would contact the CAA licensing department if I were you. You may just need to revalidate the flying side to refresh currency. I believe the FTO that you do it with will do an assessment and advise on what is required.

[ford cortina]

True, but of course, this is assuming you already hold an ATPL licence.

The best course of action is to contact the CAA or ask at a flight school.

[paco]

They would have been valid for 7 years

[VJW]

ATPL exams use to valid for 7 years from the date of expiry of your most recent IR rating...

So for someone with a JAR CPL and IR (A) who flew using a FAA IR for example (and let their JAR IR expire) their exams would be kept valid by this ICAO IR even though it wasn't JAR.

Provided you actually had a JAR CPL & IR issued, the exams expiring wouldn't require you to do anything to renew the CPL as such, as that licence was issued. You'd have needed to renew the IR exams to at least get that up and running again, and if you wanted to get the ATPL eventually it made sense to just redo them all.

The problem you have though of course is you sat JAR exams, and now it's all EASA- so all what I've said above might be totally useless :)

[chris2205]

Thanks to all for taking the time to answer my question, it's much appreciated. I think a call to the CAA is my first priority.

[Unusual Attitude]

It used to be the following case under JAR when your ATPL credits expired after 3 years:

No CPL or IR = all 14 credits lost
CPL held, no IR = 13 credits lost (VFR comms granted)
CPL and IR = ATPL credits remain valid for 7 years from your last IR renewal

If you held a CPL, you could however just do the IR exams to then gain a CPL/IR however its NOT a FzATPL so no multi crew types allowed. You would still need to redo the CPL exams (minus VFR comms) to get a Full FzATPL.

Crazy crazy stuff but I've no idea if its changed since EASA....would be interested to hear...

[Johnny Bekkestad]

So are you saying that someone with
1. FAA CPL & IR
2. NO EASA CPL & IR
3. EASA ATPL theory

Can actually use the FAA/ICAO licenses to keep the EASA theory alive?
If so, do you have a reference to the regulation stating this?

[paco]

Anything relating to that would be in CAP 804.

FCL.025:

(2) The completion of the airline transport pilot licence (ATPL) theoretical
knowledge examinations will remain valid for the issue of an ATPL for a
period of 7 years from the last validity date of:
(i) an IR entered in the licence; or
(ii) in the case of helicopters, a helicopter’s type rating entered in that
licence.

The implication is the EASA licence. But the type rating can be on anything by the look of it.

[Unusual Attitude]

What I could never get my head around was the fact you could be flying merrily with a CPL doing say instructing work having never got your IR but as far as JAR were concerned (and I assume EASA) you've lost all your commercial theory credits if you then decide you want a FzATPL, however not if you just want a CPL/IR.

You already hold a valid CPL so why on earth do you need to do the CPL exams all over again in one case but not the other!?!?

[MichaelOLearyGenius]

I think you will need to resit all of them, you will not have to sit the full course but do additional training at the discretion of you learning provider.

[skyship007]

Does the 7 year limit apply if you were issued with a CAA SCPL/IR (S for senior) after passing the ATPL exams ????

When I got that license, I thought there was no time limit, but the regs might have changed.

I held a CAA SCPL/IR/Multi QFI, but went off the the USA to fly using just a basic CPL. I'm now looking at what is required to get either an EASA ATPL or an FAA ATP.

[parkfell]

The last CAA SCPL would have been issued in December 1989. The CAA then gave you 5 years to achieve the necessary hours for a UK ATPL.
The SCPL ceased to be valid in December 1994.
By that date you needed to apply for a UK ATPL or CPL. :ooh:

So unless you kept a UK licence valid, I suspect you are in a spot of bother.
Head back in the books with Bristol...........:oh:

[500 above]

I held a CAA SCPL/IR/Multi QFI, but went off the the USA to fly using just a basic CPL. I'm now looking at what is required to get either an EASA ATPL or an FAA ATP

Well, for an EASA ATPL you will need multi-crew time. 500 hours of it. SKS-600 Airship time does not count under EASA I believe as such.

If you still have a current FAA CPL certificate (assuming you do, even LTA-Airship) and have 2000 hours fixed wing (as you say you do) why not look at the FAA route? You will sadly now come unstuck with the new FAA ruling on ATP courses though.

A call to the CAA would however be my first port of call. Is B H (was head of Airship and Heli flight standards) still there? He was my FOI when I flew Airships. He may be a good first point of contact.

I fear the UK EASA route for you may be very long winded. Good luck.

[skyship007]

Thanks for that info and it does seem that the best route would be to sign up for the new approved ATP course in the US. I do have a current FAA CPL (LTA), so I'm more used to flying in the US.

Not wishing to hijack this thread, but what type of IR is required for an FAA ATP (single or twin) to be issued and can it be done in an approved simulator ??

The other question I have is about the 3rd pilot that some cargo airlines use, so can some useful chap or chapess, confirm that if you work as a 3rd pilot, there is no requirement for a type rating ??

[paco]

Brian retired years ago

[Aeromar27]

Same thing happened to me. Passed all exams back in 2008, but didn't get an IR after that. Now I'm doing the ATPL theory module for the second time.

You will notice that the exams have changed a lot. Today, honest studying is not enough to pass the exams as it was before EASA. You will need to memorize regulation wording and figures with ridiculous detail. You'll find enough trick questions in each exam to make this a very important factor.

The knowledge that helped you pass your exams easily back in the day, won't really guarantee success this time, because of the way the new questions are designed. You WILL need a question bank, such as AviationExam or EATPL. The new exams make you feel like you don't know anything, only because you don't remember the exact wording of some regulation or because you didn't memorize some obscure figure related to the design of airport lighting.

Good luck

[skyship007]

OK, so I survived the FAA class 1 medical with the Stuttgart medical center (They are under government review due to the Germanwings loss, so things are not easy there at present) and I've decided to start with an attempt at getting an FAA ATP first.
I'm presently looking to book the one week CTP course with CAE in Dallas, BUT will need to use another flight school for the actual flight tests.

Main question at present is, which on-line study courses is best ?
I've ordered a book from Sporties, but would also like to sign up for one of the on-line courses to use once I go cross eyed reading.

[500 above]

Try Gleim for an online course.

When in Dallas, make sure to find an eatery called 'Bone Daddies'...

If you are looking for a hotel with a free shuttle to FSI or CAE try the Embassy Suites in Grapevine. Make sure to ask for a CAE rate.

The other question I have is about the 3rd pilot that some cargo airlines use, so can some useful chap or chapess, confirm that if you work as a 3rd pilot, there is no requirement for a type rating ??



If you are a required crew member you will need a type rating. You need to clarify exactly what position you will be filling to get a more useful answer here. It all sounds a bit vague. If you do a type rating (under FAA, not an SIC ride) it will be combined with your ATP check ride.

Remember, jets generally don't like upship takeoffs. Don't try a weigh-off either in flight!

[macflea]

To unusual attitude.
In response to your post have you heard anything about or received any update as regards this anomaly with these atpls exams?
I am in that position , i tried everything mailing caa uk, no answer yet.
Everybody thinks just by doing ir exams that's it to renew the ir, but you can't fly multi pilot aircraft.

[XuMeng]

so what's this mean?
if i have EASA CPL+MEP+IR+ATPL EXAM
AND FLYING WITH CAAC CPL+MEP+IR

THEN, the EASA ATPL EXAM WILL KEEP VALID
BUT THE EASA MEP+IR WILL BE EXPIRED IF NOT RE-VALIDATED?

Now I have this problem.
thank you

[rudestuff]

The are no JAA licences any more. And the FAA don't issue MEP ratings.

[XuMeng]

The are no JAA licences any more. And the FAA don't issue MEP ratings.
sorry about that, indeed I got the JAA CPL+MEP+IR in 2009, but I didn'nt re-validate them. I have been flying in China with CAAC (CPL + ME +IR) license .
Does my EASA MEP+IR still valid ? if not, I have to redo the IR theory exam again , because it's almost 10 years from the date expired :ugh:

[BillieBob]

Successful completion of theoretical knowledge examinations is required for the issue of licences and ratings and, with one exception, once the relevant licence or rating has been issued, the examinations become irrelevant. The exception is the IR where, if the rating has not been renewed within the preceding 7 years, the examinations must be passed again before it can be renewed. However, the latest amendment to Part-FCL removed this requirement for holders of a valid IR issued by an ICAO member state and so if you hold a valid CAAC IR you can renew your EASA IR with no requirement for exams or refresher training, irrespective of how long ago it expired (see FCL.625.IR(e)). The ATPL theoretical knowledge examinations are valid for the issue of an ATPL for the same 7 year period from the last renewal of the instrument rating. Consequently, by renewing the EASA IR, you automatically extend the validity of the ATPL exams for a further 7 years.

Note that the Regulation actually says "If the rating has not not been renewed within the preceding 7 years" whereas the UK CAA counts 7 years from the expiry date of the instrument rating, which is 8 years since it was last renewed. It should not be assumed that other member states will take the same liberal view.

[rudestuff]

In addition to the above - technically you could apply for an EASA IR even if you had never held one, thanks to the CBIR route, which allows an ICAO IR holder with 50 hours pic under IFR to take an EASA IR test with no exams or training. The examiner tests your knowledge on the day.

So to answer your question, you need to apply for a replacement EASA license which should just be a straight swap, then head to an ATO and either do a few flights in a light twin and an IR test. I'm a little rusty but you might even be allowed find a SIM and TRE for your current type and fly an LST. I think that's what you would do to convert an ATPL.

[XuMeng]

However, the latest amendment to Part-FCL removed this requirement for holders of a valid IR issued by an ICAO member state and so if you hold a valid CAAC IR you can renew your EASA IR with no requirement for exams or refresher training, irrespective of how long ago it expired (see FCL.625.IR(e)). .

Thank you so much, I had been looking for this for a long time.

The problem is that I'm going to endorse A320 type rating to my EASA license, what should I do with the expired IR&MEP on my EASA CPL?
Will the IR&MEP both renewed with the endorsement training of A320? or should I renew them in advance before the endorsement?

thank you

[Flyingdog84]

Hi everyone,

I did my ATPL theory exams with Bristol ground school over 10 years ago (Highly recommend them by the way). I passed them all really well (94% average) and then went on to do an FAA CPL/IR then converted at Airways in Exeter to JAA.

I guess it's obvious that flying didn't work out for me, but it's a long story and I'm not here to bore you.

The question I have is regarding the ground exams, I realise that they have long expired and was hoping that somebody could let me know the best way of re-validating them?

Thank you for any information you can give!!

so... really sad to tell you this (happened to me) that is more simple to understand in this rude way.
first case: you have 36 month for make enter an IR rating in your licence (conversion from your FAA), otherwise ATPL lost, need do all again.
second case: from your last IR proficiency check (annual if ME or biannual if SE) or the previously conversion check, if pass more than 7 years, ATPL goodbye, need do again.
Practical every time you do the check for be current on IR start the countdown of the 7 years....

[paco]

Rudestuff - testing on the day is for the Enroute IR, for people who hold an ICAO IR - the CBIR has 80 hours of TK and the usual exams. However, both have the same TK syllabus.

Phil

[LastStandards]

The ATPL theoretical knowledge examinations are valid for the issue of an ATPL for the same 7 year period from the last renewal of the instrument rating. Consequently, by renewing the EASA IR, you automatically extend the validity of the ATPL exams for a further 7 years.

This is my interpretation as well, but not necessarily the interpretation of some Policy individuals at a NAA - some recent discussions with candidates using either an ICAO IR or a UK Military Unrestricted Green IR to comply with the 7 year rule led to a curious interpretation that the ATPL exams were separate from the IR exams for the purpose of issue, such that the ATPL exam validity expired 7 years after the last UK/EASA IR entered in a licence, irrespective of the IR exam portion remaining within 7 years of the latest ICAO/Green IR. I'm afraid I continued to enter an IR in both candidates' EASA licences, with both leaving understanding that the Regulation itself suggested that their ATPL exams were now valid for a further 8 years! We do sometimes seem to seek the most negative interpretation rather than the most pragmatic interpretation.

[LastStandards]

Rudestuff - testing on the day is for the Enroute IR, for people who hold an ICAO IR - the CBIR has 80 hours of TK and the usual exams. However, both have the same TK syllabus.

Phil

Sorry, not quite - Appendix 6 to FCL Annex 1 refers, specifically Aa(8) which exempts a candidate with an Part-FCL PPL/CPL and a valid ICAO IR(A) with 50 hours PIC IFR on aeroplanes from both theoretical and flight instruction elements. This therefore refers to a CBIR - the candidate therefore gains an IR, with the restriction that their TK has only been demonstrated to CB exam level by verbal and practical demonstration, therefore no HPA.

[paco]

OK - I stand connected....