Cathay or Dragonair?

[MarkColeman]

What is the general consensus with regards to which company is better to work for? Taking into account lifestyle, pay, roster, management etc. Any and all info appreciated!

[Milking a mouse]

They are very different beasts. Your experience will vary and prepare for some responses that are as subjective as they are passionate.

In my opinion...

Better for the body clock: KA
Better for overnights: CX
Home the family more often: KA
Home with the family for more days in a row: CX
Time to command: KA squared
Salary short to mid term (15-20yrs): KA
Salary long term: CX
Cockpit culture/atmosphere: KA
Gravitas internationally: CX
Annual leave: KA
Control over roster: CX

Etc, etc, etc

[Weary traveller]

Frying pan or fire?

[swh]

What was that saying with multiple choice questions, if in doubt choose C ?

A) Cathay
B) Dragonair
C)

[Yonosoy Marinero]

It depends.

Do you prefer bouncing around some of the worst airspace in the World and spending half your time in some of the worst pollution in the World on a forever worsening contract, or ruining your body flying ultra long haul on a forever worsening contract?

[geh065]

You have come to the wrong place to ask sensible questions.

[goathead]

At least hes getting a 100% true answer!

[coldastone17]

Wrong place? So where is the right place...I am sure there is since you all have been here a long long time:D

[WeeklyWrapUp]

I have been a PPRuNe reader since joining my current job some years ago and even in the lead up to interviews (yes, I was rightly warned), I had only ever been on the sideline. Funny thing is that I haven't been that interested in signing up until now.. Right up until 'coldastone17' made his last statement with clapping hands (please tell me that was a wind up!!)

If not, then here goes..

PPRuNe is full of grumpy old captains and FO's. Many whom I have shared meals and drinks with at outports who are decent fellas (just quite frustrated and like spending time on computers). Anyway, to MC's question.. here is my opinion

For those guys who are happy with their pay and their contract (biz jet guys aside) I challenge you to speak up as I have done here..

'Coldastone17'.. these guys here are fed up (as we all are) with our company treating us like pests. Most of these guys are A or B scalers getting paid LOTS in housing. These are the guys who are now trapped by the seniority system and are chasing the dangling carrot of command on the good fleet, or for those already there, a base in their home country.

THESE PILOTS ARE DEEP IN AND MAY OR MAY NOT BE ABLE TO AFFORD TO LEAVE THE COMPANY!!

NOW, this is where it gets interesting.. Almost everybody around my time of joining (circa 5-6 years), CAN afford to leave. We can't afford to pay the 40% deposit on an HKD$8,000,000 property that is 650ft2. We can't have the luxuries of the western world like a car or a boat or a lounge to breakdance in. There is ZERO chance to get ahead on the current package in Hong Kong.

We can afford to rent some less than desirable place sure, but do you really want to rent until you are 65? With no basings on offer, it looks like you will be in Hong Kong forever. Are you happy bringing up a family in such a place with the HUGE cost associated with schooling etc (not to mention the clearly visible pollution and the general lack of good quality food at respectable prices).

The Hong Kong Pilot Allowance for the first four years will not cover suitable accommodation and it has not been adjusted for general inflation (not to mention property inflation). After 4.5 years (average) it will go up $4k, but again it is not adjusted and you simply can-not make do (unless you are 18, straight out of highschool, zero debt, no girlfriend, no bad habits etc).

Long story short.. my contract and my lifestyle is declining with every update I get from the company. My union works hard and I am very appreciative of that, but there is only so much you can do against a bully (short of getting into serious industrial action).

So I rambled a bit there MC, but you get the idea.. Good luck with your decisions!

[cpdude]

Probably never a base or never a base...your choice.

[MarkColeman]

Thank you for the replies,

So it seems like if you were a debt free single guy it's not so terrible? I should add a debt free single guy coming from an ultra ****ty low cost airline....

[cxorcist]

HOPE!?! That never-ending well of ignorance and stupidity.

Mark C, if that's what you took away from those replies, there is no HOPE for you. Just join up and get miserable with the rest of us, but you won't be able to claim you were not warned. Looks like the world's economy is headed back into the chamber pot, so your timing might be just right.

Sounds like you fly the A320. If so, I bet that A350 SO job is looking quite juicy. Yep, we call that SJS or shiny jet syndrome. It's the same one that probably got you into your current circumstances. Don't worry though, CX will totally ignore your experience and have you "fly" freighters to ANC for the next four years. If that doesn't piss you off, all the DEFOs (direct entry FOs) who skip the line ahead of you in the USA are surely going to. Happy trails...

[Sam Ting Wong]

Except for guys like Weeklywrapup, you won't really find honest answers to your question.
The reason is that a lot of guys bizarly believe that if they can diminish the number of applicants ( they cannot) this puts them somehow in a better position to improve/ keep their own B scale package.That is why whenever somebody like you pops up in these forums they get these extreme negative opinions. The fact that conditions are indeed under threat and management continously tries to squeeze out more doesn't help if course.
I think weekly is right in general, however most importantly is of course where you are now and if it would be an improvement or a step back for YOU.
There is no alternative but to see for yourself, take the time to visit the place, look at the accomodation etc , then compare with alternatives like EK etc.

[Ho Hum]

Weeklywrapup is spot on. Dont expect what it used to be. Dont expect the lies to be fulfilled. Dont expect anything but an aggressive divide and conquer, leverage & bully employer. Dont expect to be able to afford a family. The current package IS unsustainable and bases are simply unachievable, Ever, so dont believe those lies. You get an upgrade to JFO, you have juniority - and a very big list. If & when you get promoted, you have juniority - and a very big list. Until recently and a few dribbled uk bases and like five US bases with caveats, there've been NO bases offered for 5 years and two bases agressively closed.

Hong Kong is a Very expensive place to live and hard to enjoy without disposable cash and roster stability / predictability / control. They want ALL the control and that's no fun. They recently gave notice to cancel the Pilot Duty Agreement / Rostering Practices because they can't / Won't negotiate anything. Anything.... They are greedy bullies. Dont come here without being informed... The Big Shiny Jet needs so much polish on it that it probably doesnt matter coz the sun don't shine here, not through the pollution.

[MarkColeman]

I should have mentioned 1/ I don't really give a **** what aircraft type I fly (definitely do NOT have "shiny jet syndrome") 2/ Given my personal circumstances (single), I see HK as an attractive place to live (familiar with the city, region & low tax rate) and 3/ Once again, I do work for a crappy low cost airline (not a320, actually 737ng, might narrow it down a bit.)

Any KA perspective on things?

[flying headbutt]

Slight thread drift but is Macau any better or cheaper? Thanks in advance.....or not ;-)

[Captn_Kirk]

Mark, you have to ask yourself. Where will you go next?
Unless you're really planning on remaining single and debt free for the rest of your life. 25,000HKD/month for a 400sqf flat in Central.

Think about: retirement (no pension, so you will have to be able to save money), China taking over Hong Kong and Air China taking over CX and KA in the long term.

CX and KA are only a stepping stone for most guys nowadays.

Living in Europe, I suggest you have a look at the majors over there earlier than later.

[wantobe]

Sometimes I fail to understand all the negative press.

I don't see the problem in joining cx in your early 20's and getting an f/o upgrade after 5 or so years. Then you're free to leave with experience on a wide body jet as a first officer.

Whats the problem?

[geh065]

LionAir?







.

[stilton]

Never seen 'Gravitas' listed as an Airline quality :eek:

[Sam Ting Wong]

Come on Rod, this is getting ridiculous... Command failure rate 25-75%? Rent 30-60 minutes from Central 2-4000 US for a tiny flat?

Fighting the market ( especially with these silly lies) is like building a sand castle against the tide, childish and pointless.

Instead of moaning and complaining 24/7, wearing your stupid red lanyards (preferably at outports) or chasing the unicorn G day worker, why don't you take some real action, something that actually does hurt the company,something that needs real guts and not only cheap talk？

I know you guys think I am the enemy, I approve of everything, I like how we get treated. This is nonsense. But it just doesn't matter if you fly the aircraft from A to B in a good or bad mood, only if we STOP flying from A to B the company would listen.

[Yonosoy Marinero]

I know there's a rant about pollution every other day on this forum, but for the sake of the present argument, and for what it's worth, here's another piece we can all pretend we never read when we go back home to our kids after our next duty:

Asian Air is Killing Us - Asia Sentinel | Asia Sentinel (http://www.asiasentinel.com/econ-business/asian-air-is-killing-us/)

Now let's play: "how many air purifiers can I buy with my profit share".

I'll help you. The answer is none.

[Shep69]

What Rod and Kirk have said is pretty much spot on.

Given a choice I would probably pick CX.

But given the present climate I would look only toward this as a stepping stone for somewhere else--kind of like a regional plus. Or a hobby.

I wouldn't have said that 10 years ago but the present trajectory takes the place away from being a career choice. Unless you forsee some form of imminent epiphany by the folks that run the place, we will quickly become stratified into a bunch of old folks riding it out toward retirement and a bunch of young folks on their way up who will bolt when they become marketable. The company has demonstrated little effort in investing in its most precious commodity--its people---as of late (unless words on paper count--and even a lot of those are neither true nor good). They've managed to take what is one of the best deals and wonderful vocations on the planet and piss everyone off. No small accomplishment. And over trivial control-freak oriented things.

In many flying organizations the real rubber meet the road types are those of upper mid level experience in their mid years. The point at which ones skills are sharpest, the physical capability is at its peak (without the maintenance issues which unquestionably come with age), and they have enough experience (although not as much as the old heads) to competently and safely fly. Personal maintenance cost is low, performance is high, life issues are low. We won't have these folks for long if we keep doing what we are doing.

The airline market is largely seniority driven and this can result in a trap if one joins the ship too late. There are plenty of other opportunities (and for the forseeable future) out there which in the long run will give a more better lifestyle. In the end, this is what counts. Time is life's most precious resource. As one gets older family becomes more and more important (as it should be--probably from the start). Present day rostering is in shambles, and the workable solutions have been completely ignored. In fact problems have been exacerbated out of some petty misguided tirade which actually makes crew availability and options much less efficient and worse. It's not a matter of not having solutions, but of not wanting to invoke them--a stubborn refusal to acknowledge win-win solutions--with the incomprehensible belief that somehow making things better detracts from one's power and authority (when exactly the reverse is true). Just the way it is and you're not going to change it. MAYBE someday it will change, but it's not that way now.

CX has hired some of the best people in the business in its selection process during its history. And it's uncanny how strong (and desirable) individual character traits were chosen during this process. Highly qualified military pilots from all forces, experienced regional pilots, experienced bush pilots, brought quality folks up through its ranks. NONE of these folks are slackers; most all have demonstrated excellence in dedication, work and aviation prior to joining--and have continued this through most of their career. Some very impressive resumes and performance. Yet somehow the place has managed to completely demoralize many of these people. And in some cases not simply demoralize them but driven and polarized them into doing ONLY what is required and absolutely nothing more--when this group could be otherwise motivated to do some phenomenally productive and great things (and had been in previous organizations). Fear might work as a motivator in a shooting war, or in the short term, but in the long term breeds only contempt. The survey results speak for themselves; when confidence levels are in the single digits there's SOMETHING very, very wrong. These aren't a bunch of disgruntled workers bitching and moaning; for the most part they are dedicated professionals interested in making things better. And giving an honest assessment. It comes down to leadership, confidence, and trust which been found wanting.

So if you believe this is the path for you, give it a try--but I wouldn't put down roots or place yourself in the position of having self-generated handcuffs.

[main_dog]

Good post as usual Shep.

Even if basings change, that won't be you, for ages.

May I just add, on the subject of future bases, that I very much doubt that anyone who joined on the HKPA (rather than full housing) will ever see a base, quite aside from the hundreds of people ahead on the seniority list wanting one. Bases lose the company a bit of crew flexibility, but more importantly they lose them control, and they hate that. Not to mention all those pesky labour laws that have to actually be followed.

There is only one good reason bases even exist, and that is the airline saves massively on housing costs, which represent a very substantial chunk of the crew budget. For those who have joined in the last 6 years or so, there is absolutely no incentive for them to ever send you on a base, the HKPA being a pittance compared to "proper" housing.

[Captain Dart]

Quite right main, but judging by the number of Reserve and what used to be A-Day callouts on the bases, I think the bases actually add to their flexibility, particularly now. What HKG crew in their right mind answer the flashing message lights in the hotel rooms these days?

And they will never openly say 'no more bases', because they are a great carrot to dangle in front of the starry-eyed wannabes.

But as the expensive expats get pissed off and leave (which to me seems a result of deliberate company policy), the day will come when there will be a critical mass of cheap ex-cadet and low time 'instant jet transport pilots' on HKPA. The cheap salaries, minimal housing allowance and no requirement to conform with First World labor law will outweigh the benefits of experienced, competent crew in both HKG and available at the outports.

I'll say it again. It almost seems as if they are deliberately trying to piss us off.

[wantobe]

So basically what shep69 is saying is use cathay the way they use you. Get your time and experience and leave before its too late :).

If you join at an older age in your early to mid 30's then I do believe its the wrong choice. If you're a tweeny barely out of school. Use it for what it is and don't hang around for the carrots being dangled.

[cxorcist]

The last five posts sum it up perfectly.

Read no more, especially from Company stooges like STW.

[Sam Ting Wong]

In war, truth is the first casualty.

Aeschylus

[Anotherday]

Sam Ting Wong

You've rubbished Rod without any evidence whatsoever to back it up.
For every 10 crew that join, how many get into the left seat? If the company decide that 9 of them won't be given a command upgrade, so 1 in 10 gets a command course, passes it, and is upgraded to captain that's not actually a 100% pass rate.
Every other legacy carrier recruited from the same pool of pilots as CX, every other legacy carrier has a better than 95% upgrade rate and, with rare exceptions, everyone does command course.
CX can do whatever they want with their employees careers, it's their train set. You think Rod's numbers are far off the mark? Prove it

[Captain Dart]

And STW has admitted that it's 'war'.

[Sam Ting Wong]

It is impossible to prove something that doesn't exist ( for instance you cannot prove a god does NOT exist)

That is why traditionally the one who claims something has to prove it.

So, how about you guys prove the failure rate for command is 20-75 % ?

And for the record : I never said the checking system in Cathay is reasonable, nor that the housing for new joiners is attractive, or that management treats us well etc etc. NEVER. You don't get it!

All I say is that you guys are not focusing on the enemy, you don't chose your battles right, and you don't really fight in the first place. Just grumpy cheap talk in cruise or in the bar won't do it, that is all I am saying. What is the outcome of CC so far? NOTHING. Quite the opposite : no pay rise this year, no 5 years LoL, and as a cherry on the the top given notice of the FTLS. Nice. Applause.

And for the record: I am wearing your clown lanyards, I am not answering the phone, I am not working on a gday, BUT AS THE REST OF YOU I NEVER HAVE!!
CC is shooting in the own foot, I said it from day one, and you KNOW IT. The are no g-day workers, there is no crew shortage, there is no lack of training capacity, Americans are not leaving, Cathay is not " a stepping stone", etc etc , it is all the same BS talk I hear since decades!!

Call me old-fashioned, but if I start a fight I intend to WIN IT.

You rather spend time to "fight" for expat conditions for all ( pointless and unsustainable), telling wanna-be new joiners ferry tales or horror stories, or you explain SO's how inferior their package is ( it is not).

Remember the ingenious strategy of the AOA to ban new-joiners from union membership? It is always the same moronic idea, but there will NEVER be a shortage of applicants, there are THOUSANDS of them eagerly waiting to join, for the simple reason that they come from places that are even worse. What is so hard to understand here? Change your patronising, arrogant and USELESS position and face reality.

Either fight for real or chose your battles and negotiate.

PS Captain Dart, I never said there is no war, I said we should only start one if we can win it.

[Oasis]

Good post, but the thread is drifting!

[cxorcist]

STW = PM. Posts here and on the AOA forums are nearly identical.

[Flying Mechanic]

I don't work for either airline. But if both contracts were in front of me, I would take Dragonair. After 3 years at Dragonair, with Airbus time, you will have plenty of options. You will either love Hk after 3 years or hate it, stay at Dragonair, most likely a command after 8 years. I think Cathay is now in the region of 14 years to command.CX after 3 years, you will still be a S/o.

I work on the other side of the airport on the corporate side, applications are coming in thick and fast from CX and KA pilots, a lot of guys want out.

[Fly747]

Just to slightly correct FM. If you have the hours as a direct entry FO then command is currently possible at KA in 18 months.

[Flying Mechanic]

That's good to hear, Dragonair definitely a good option then.

[Pucka]

Shep..good one, as always spot on.mechanic..very true..KA would be my choice since the bus is currency outside HK, unless you want the dross of Korea,the pit or Gallipoli.fast track conversions to minibus and ACJ exec jobs are also on radar..2 going now on your side I believe?

[Flying Mechanic]

Yep now 5 ACJ's based in HK, and more to come. One owner is looking at a Corporate A350. That will be easy to crew as Cx gets there first 350 early 2016.

[TSIO540]

As a 30 something with KA I can say that I am happy here after missing out with CX.

The job is what you make of it.. We fly almost exclusively in china as a line pilot and that carries it own stressors like constant delays and operating at least 10,000ft below optimum for a loud flight on the many integrated 3 sectors days.

If you can be at peace with that, then you might enjoy flying with the good people at KA.

There is always downward pressure on wages (published on the website) Hong Kong is stupidly expensive but you can have a lot of fun here if you don't have kids as schools are pricey enough to make you want to cry all the way back to Jetstar. We choose to live further out for more space but you can live closer to the action if space is not important.

If you have the experience then upgrade time at KA is trending towards 18 months but be warned there is little training and the assessment is uncompromising regardless of the need for commanders.

The intake process with KA is slow vs CX so if you're under 25 I would take the first offer otherwise I'd wait for KA.

Good luck with getting an offer.

[crwkunt roll]

May I just add, on the subject of future bases, that I very much doubt that anyone who joined on the HKPA (rather than full housing) will ever see a base, quite aside from the hundreds of people ahead on the seniority list wanting one.
Not according to I-cadet on the AOA forum who claims he is 7th or 8th in line for a LHR base!

[GTC58]

I think he adjusted his number to 17 or 18 for LHR out of 83 bids.

However, when USAB goes onshore and NYC opens up there will be not enough eligible pilots to fill the base, so my guess is that DEFO will be happening again for NYC.

[Gnadenburg]

KA without a blink.

I'm not sure about an 18 month command but historically that is not unusual. It's probably now more achievable too, as the process has been the same for years. Command sim day one handling at a level expected at any other airline and day two a complex LOFT A to B, double failure, option is divert to C or D, but only one fits the failure criteria or airmanship norm's.

Gambling with your career as a map folding, bed making S/O in CX is silly when you could be learning your trade on a 320 belting around China. You'll be a competent airline pilot long before the CX guy has upgraded to F/O. You are more marketable too.

Gravitas is the CX pilot stealing a peek at your crutch in public when you're incognito without wings or braid. Bit weird for a few years but then it dawns upon you he's just checking your belt buckle to see if you work for KA or CX so as to determine social interactions and externalities. Gravitas. :8

[main_dog]

Not according to I-cadet on the AOA forum who claims he is 7th or 8th in line for a LHR base!

Very simple, as soon as i-cadets start reaching the sort of seniority where they could achieve a base, the company will stop offering slots, as no more savings to be had.

[Threethirty]

Good news for Icadets; from the article on BA on the T&C's page: 311 this year, similar number required next year, this from a senior manager to me last week!

[Lowkoon]

Let's say at the end of 5 years, you decide to go home... For whatever reason, maybe you can't get your kids into an English speaking school, or you cant afford the debenture for an English speaking school, or the English speaking school you are "lucky" enough to get in to is $hite, or you simply want to live in a house, you might want your kids to know what grass is, and how it feels under their toes, you may want to afford to get married, or maybe your lungs have packed it in, pick any or all of the above... What will look better on your resume? 3 years 320 command, or 5 years of adjusting the jump seat, with no aircraft rating? From that perspective, looks like a "no brainer".

[Shutterbug]

@Lowkoon

Best argument I've read yet. Hope the OP is still checking this thread. He'd be wise to heed your counsel.

[Anotherday]

Some Ting Wong,

If you're not some 10 yr old at home on his computer. You do know we have a seniority list? And you do know that list has pages and pages of F/Os senior to the latest Skipper. And you can figure out they didn't all ask not to do command.
I think that proves Rods estimation of how many actually get past the panel and make it to the left seat.

Maybe it's irrelevant when you're first joining, the 97% getting command at BA, while maybe 50% get command at CX. Maybe RHS wide body time to go elsewhere is all that matters.

[744drv]

Hard fact from Apr seniority list, between seniority numbers 900 and 1000 there are 27 FOs. 15 of these FOs are on a base, which suggests that they are unlikely to have ever started a command course. Thus, from this single snapshot a possible failure rate of 12%. I accept there are going to be exceptions to my simple assumptions, but I'm sure that this is roughly the sort of accurate figure and does include second time round passes.

[VR-HFX]

744

I think you will find the fair majority of these are in OZ and in biblical fashion on passover. Most are doing RAAF reserve which provides good supplementary income. My guess is that the only time they will come home to mama is when they think the guy in the LHS is a muppet or the kids have left home.

[320wonder]

honestly, something doesn't quite add up here.

Tom fills a kettle with water, Dick plugs in and switches the kettle on. Harry puts his hand inside the water while it's still cold enough, until a stage where it's getting unbearable, he shouts to Tom and Dick, "The Water is Hot! The Water is Hot, turn off the plug!!" Of Course Tom and Dick did not respond, and Harry kept his hand in the water.

So why doesn't Harry removes his hand from the kettle instead of leaving it inside the water , and keeps complaining as the water gets hotter? Does he want to wait till the water is boiling and his hand thoroughly cooked before he removes it? or do something about his situation before it gets worse?

[Don Quixote]

Glad to see you are a Wonder on the A320, cause if you were on the A330 I'd be Wondering WTF you were talking about ... :ugh:

[me01]

Is KA any where near fully manned, unlike the undermanned CX, as the old merger of both rumour is doing the rounds again and with the 350 manning problems and mangerment seeming to be very quiet, I just wonder? :=

[giggerty]

merger smerger, it aint going to happen.

The rumour with some credibility is brand integration, i.e. Dragonair becomes Cathay Dragon just so CX can get it's brand better exposed in mainland China. Dragonair will remain Dragonair just with a different name, There will be no pilot merger. That opportunity has long gone.

Ka is still recruiting, commands are back down to two years BUT apparently CX has no plans for further KA growth. No new destination, no new aircraft, no nothing, any expansion over the next few years will be 2 to 3% and that will come from late night red eye flights to current destinations.

Even though KA is THE part of the business thats actually turning a profit at the moment it sounds like recruitment will grind to a halt shortly.

It would be nice if CX would sell KA to someone who had some vision. We are flying the oldest airbus in existence, whilst our competitors order 50 new aircraft at a stroke. KA gets 40% outer bays to CXs 1%. We are the poor cousin
No doubt about it.

Those planning to join KA. The future is uncertain. Do your homework

[Lowkoon]

Krone, the truck fell over because they extended it without putting the stabilizers down. Nothing to do with crew pushing back.

Giggerty, agreed, it is worrying times for KA, no orders, no expansion plans, potentially the oldest airbus fleet on earth, rudderless ship, managers out of the loop, and impotent senior exec managers not entrusted to make purchasing and planning decisions, offloading the engineering to CASL, getting rid of all the 'expensive' training equipment rather than spending a single cent to upgrade it, we are seeing penny pinching at unprecedented levels, it would be good advice to come in with your eyes wide open, and be prepared to do the same job being paid less than everyone else. That seems to be fine at the start, but by the second year of it, the bitter taste gets harder to swallow.

I would still prefer a command in the same time as it takes to get out of the jump seat, but when the music stops, and it looks from the order books to be stopping very soon. KA for the short term if you have an eye on getting out in 5-10. CX if you want a career, but are happy to do the job for less than everyone else does it for.

In 5 years in KA you will be a captain on some museum piece airbus
narrow body.
In 5 years in CX you will be an FO hoping you get a landing this month.
In ten years in KA you will be a captain, possibly training, but still on the same museum relic you trained on initially.
In ten years in CX you will trying to keep under the radar from the star chamber so you don't get s#it canned before your command training in the next few years.
In 20 years in KA you will sitting in an outer bay with no APU in hong kong waiting 8 hours for your Shanghai slot to come up.
In 20 years in CX you will be a 350 or 777 captain wondering why those cranky KA captains are arcing up on clearance delivery when you call ready for Paris.

[MrCrawford]

In 20 years in KA you will sitting in an outer bay with no APU in hong kong waiting 8 hours for your Shanghai slot to come up.
In 20 years in CX you will be a 350 or 777 captain wondering why those cranky KA captains are arcing up on clearance delivery when you call ready for Paris. Most KA captains are not phased by 8 hour delays. It's annoying but most take it as part of the job. On the other hand, a CX captain sat 45 mins on the ground going to China and had to ask delivery whether he should start food service or not. :}

[Captain Dart]

I never thought of that. Next delay I'll be able to ask Delivery if I've got time to nip back to the lav (but that might put a confusing meaning to 'number two in the area').

[qld330]

If you are flying a turboprob or military pilot looking for a free unbonded A320/330 rating to improve your career prospects then KA is the place for you.

Even better if you have 5000hrs and a willingness to work very hard you will find yourself with A320 PIC time to make you more attractive elsewhere rapidly.

The current contract will not supplement your military pension to keep you happy long term but there is very few opportunities out there to progress from a metroliner/military straight to an A330 or A320 and onwards to the LHS of an A320, this is one of them

Come, take as much training (and extremely hard checking) as you can get and then move off to pastures new.

Long-term = contract unviable for HK living with a family. That is the unfortunate fact above everything else. Renting an apartment big enough for a family is a non-runner with the current rental allowance. That is a tough fact. A house therefore will never be affordable.

Your family will last 2 years maximum living in Tung Chung while you're enjoying the sights and sounds of Beijing, Ningbo and Nanjing. Before you know it you'll be commuting back home to them whenever possible and visiting PPJN on the daily.

By all means come to KA, but with your eyes open.
KA Fleet age average A330 = 16 years.
CX Fleet age average A330 = 7 years
KA Fleet age average A320/321 = 11.3 years

Orders currently pending CX = MANY
Pending aircraft currently KA= 0

The only expansion planned in KA is to fly more through the night. If you enjoy flying two long sectors at night and sleeping during the day then KA is for you.

For the long term, probably best to go to CX. At least you won't feel like a poor old cousin.

[terd_ferguson]

Would you like a start date for your new job before you quit your current job? Cathay will not give you one. Yes sure, you will be given a date for when your course starts in Adelaide, but at that stage you are not employed by Cathay - you are going through Cathay's 'sponsorship' to convert your licence and prepare you for the type-rating with an MCC type course, regardless of your previous experience.

Even though getting the job after the course in Adelaide might be considered a formality by some people, Cathay expect full commitment from you, of course, in quitting your job but in return they don't even give you a start date for your employment with them - just hope for the best I suppose.

Some companies start cadets on a lower pay scale than DE pilots, but at Cathay everyone starts on the same SO salary, which is considerably lower than FOs get. While the 'forgiveable loan' is extra cash that the short course new SOs receive, it doesn't change the fact that they start on the same very low basic salary and it is re-payable if you leave within 6 years.

To many Cathay may have more desirable rosters than Dragonair - better and more varied destinations and more time off. Yes, if you can look past the short-term, it is an appealing option to many. However, why should you have to take such a gamble in taking a job with a supposedly reputable 'world-class' airline? No actual employment offer, no proper type-rating, no handling at all (except in the sim), a backwards step in the short term as far as gaining proper experience is concerned. You will also have to agree to be financially liable for the TT course in Adelaide, should Cathay decide not to employ you!

Yes, lots of time off (which also means lots of time to spend your (lower) salary), but if something changes in 2-3 years and you need to get a job elsewhere, you won't be in the best position. Lose your medical in 3 years and you will have made the financial sacrifice of taking the SO salary with a longer term goal in mind. So, again, why should you have to take that gamble?

It comes down to what options are available, but that's why a lot of the guys going there come from air taxi/bush flying type jobs because they don't have as many alternative options to get into an airline. Most people with a fair amount of experience who are looking for opportunities abroad will be more tempted by the Middle East, where they are rewarded straight away without having to take the same initial gamble that Cathay expect you to take, even though the Middle East may be a less desirable place to live for those same people.

People who have other potential options that seem less risky, where their experience is valued and they are compensated better from the start will probably be much more reluctant to go for Cathay than people flying a Chieftain or Caravan around Africa.

I don't know the ins and outs of Dragonair but, while you might work harder in terms of days per month, you don't have that same gamble and risk (and lower salary) that Cathay expect you to take from the point you leave your current job and for the next few years as a cruise relief SO.

[JY9024]

MC. What your being told is all true so I won't repeat the obvious. Put simply, my package right now is good. I have a good , not extravagant but comfortable lifestyle, live in a nice home in a good part of town. The company give me a packet of cash to pay off my house and kids are grown up and no longer in the expensive Hk school system. But, you can't have what I have and that's the issue that is being past down to you. The company looks at DEFO's on the local contract as a means of filling seats quickly to cover expansion, it takes a long time to train up local cadets and many years to get them to command standard. They know that you won't be able to live here long term so will leave at some point to be replaced by a local who will never leave or complain about the contract, standard of hotels, allowances, overtime threshold etc.
So MC come on over, but don't ever bring up your shirty contract and complain that it's not fair that I earn more than you and try to justify that your being hard done by, coz if you do I won't let you touch my big shinning jet.

[sled_driver71]

So on the current website for DragonAir they are advertising a starting salary of KHD75000 and allowance of HKD21000 monthly.

Two questions:

1: is that a housing allowance or total allowances ie overnights etc?

2: if it is a housing allowance, is it sufficient for a couple with no kids?

[Australia2]

Boys and girls,

Take note of JY9024's post, it might seem a tad hash but he has hit the nail on the head. Sadly this is the new world we live in.

21K would be about the minimum for a reasonable pad for a couple - it would not be glamorous - plenty of on-line real estate agents to check - use Tung Chung, Discovery Bay and mid-levels or Kennedy town as a start.

Cheers Oz2

[Dunda]

Is Dragonair recruiting?

[hkgyyzhkg]

In 5 years in KA you will be a captain on some museum piece airbus
narrow body.
In 5 years in CX you will be an FO hoping you get a landing this month.
In ten years in KA you will be a captain, possibly training, but still on the same museum relic you trained on initially.
In ten years in CX you will trying to keep under the radar from the star chamber so you don't get s#it canned before your command training in the next few years.
In 20 years in KA you will sitting in an outer bay with no APU in hong kong waiting 8 hours for your Shanghai slot to come up.
In 20 years in CX you will be a 350 or 777 captain wondering why those cranky KA captains are arcing up on clearance delivery when you call ready for Paris.

hahaha so true. I bet CX would love to dump their 5 oldest Boeing museum piece (772) to KA if they can