German plane crash

[Blowback]

From the guardian newspaper

"All 150 passengers and crew on an Airbus A320 flying from Barcelona to Düsseldorf are believed dead after it rapidly lost height and began an as yet unexplained descent into a remote and mountainous area of southern France.

The chief executive of Lufthansa’s lowcost arm, Germanwings, said the aircraft reached its cruising height of 38,000ft at 10.45am, 44 minutes into the flight, and began the descent just a minute or two later. Contact was lost at 10.53am when the plane was at 6,000ft."

[Blowback]

Latest news on the crash
Only one pilot was at the controls at the time of the crash , the other apparently was locked out of the flight deck , trying very hard to get back in
I guess this validates the company policy of having another crew member in the flight deck at all times

[Captain Dart]

Agreed. And how about removing stressors on pilots such as overwork, ever-changing rosters, and inadequate salary and housing. Providing adequate leave, and time off in times of personal crisis and sickness, along with peer support.

Also, recruitment of new pilots who are dedicated, motivated aviation people with previous flying experience and have done the 'hard yards'. Traditional recruitment processes including thorough interview sequences by pilots, not HR dogsbodies. A sympathetic and pro-active training system and predictable and consistent promotion. Avoidance of recruitment of pilots who hold extreme religious beliefs. Competent,approachable managers who are not just interested in their next bonus and will stand up for their pilots. Bonding and 'pay to fly' made illegal.

But I guess the only group who would drive all this would be the insurers.

Egypt Air, Silk Air, Malaysian, we don't know what happened to Air Asia, several others alluded to on the current thread on the R and N forum, and now a German Wings captain locked out of his cockpit. Not jumping to conclusions, but it really is becoming a worry.

[RHEINHARD]

Not jumping to conclusions ? Hmm. Good use of the soapbox though.

[Steve the Pirate]

@Captain Dart

and now a German Wings captain locked out of his cockpit

What makes you say it was the captain?

Are you implying that the "stressors" you refer to and recruitment issues were factors in this accident? If so, how do you make that assertion? If not, why post it in the first place?

[flyingbynight]

Captain Dart:

Wait, so at Germanwings they use HR people to conduct interviews which led to a pilot being locked out and a plane crashing?

[SloppyJoe]

Why was he suicidal? A year into his perceived dream job, living with parents, most likely paying back a huge loan from training, about to receive a 40% paycut.

What an absolute piece of :mad: :mad: for going about it in the manner that he did!

[Scoreboard]

Mass murder doesnt need a gun....

Horrible sickening tragedy, but interesting seeing his very low time.....and knowing how little we dont even test the new guys pysc profile during recruitment at this airline.....cause it costs money...and everyone is already hearing about some of the more famous ones gettiing thru barely by the skin of their teeth. Wonder what they will do when they are up to the fleet departement so many times and all the stress they would be feeling to pass their JFO upgrade or QL?

All airlines are suffering from very low time very inexperienced guys....who would have been weeded out in General aviation/regional flying years before they got to a jet. Now the airlines are left weeding these guys at airline jet level.

Either flying incompentence or stuff like this is the future for air crashes....you can make planes safe but we have humans at the controls.

[McNugget]

With all due respect, you're getting way ahead of yourself.

This is nothing to do with competence, and nothing that would be 'weeded out' at GA level.

[777300ER]

The fact of the matter is, we as Airline Pilots are in a position of trust. This is the case because of the tremendous responsibility that rests upon our shoulders every time we operate an aircraft.

There was a time not so long ago when this trust was acknowledged and rewarded. This made the job very desirable which in turn resulted in immense competition for entry into this career path.

Unfortunately managers and bean counters have embarked on a concerted effort to stop acknowledging our role, and in some cases even have programs in place to do the opposite, essentially aiming to beat us down until we are convinced that our role is insignificant. It is after all easier to attack an enemy that is already wounded and lacks confidence. Does anyone not wonder why corporate pilots are not subjected to the same downward pressures that we are (decreasing wages, erosion of benefits, increasing productivity, fatigue levels that make it difficult to lead a normal life away from work, etc.)?

In my opinion, these type of unfortunate events are simply a side effect of the damaging campaign which is in progress against our profession. Furthermore, instead of doing the right thing and reconsidering the assault on the modern airline pilot, the industry will likely make the burden on us even worse with numerous bandaid solutions that make our job even more thankless and miserable. How far must we go before sanity prevails?

[CISTRS]

We really must make these jobs worth their candle - even at the cost of the ticket price. Professional pilots terms and conditions, rostering, rest periods, FTLs, have been eroded for the past decade if not longer. The job MUST be made tolerable, or we will generate more of these tragedies...
This does not necessarily mean more pay - just better overall conditions and a culture of valuing professional pilots.
With more low time cadets being taken into the teams, we must value them. They are the Captains of the next generation.

[Blowback]

Okay I'm probably getting ahead of myself , and none of the following are verified facts but
According to certain websites still to be verified, the Co pilot Lubitz had been dating a Muslim girl and had broken it off with her after after declaring jihad for Allah .

"Mr Spohr said Mr Lubitz's training had been interrupted for several months six years ago, but did not say why.
The training was resumed after "the suitability of the candidate was re-established", he said."

Police have taken computers and evidence from his house but refused to say what the evidence was

Lubitz's breathing was not heard to change during the entire descent and he uttered not a word. Very scary

Maybe it's time we had a remote that could be used to regain access to the flight deck if required . This kind of event is just becoming too far too common
The fact that the passengers were screaming just before impact indicates that they knew what was about to take place . I cannot imagine the terror they had to endure.

[Blowback]

I wasn't suggesting that the remote control device remained outside the flight deck but could be taken by the crew member leaving the flight deck

[Shep69]

Egypt Air 990 was (likely) put into the water by a suicidal pilot with no one else on the flight deck (somewhat covered up by political correctness).

This aircraft was put into a mountain by a suicidal pilot with no one else on the flight deck.

The jury is still out on MH 370 so no one knows who was where or what happened.

Likewise on Silk Air 185 which could have been either a suicide or rudder PCU malfunction.

It's likely that there will be some mealy-mouth nonsense about background checks, psych testing, monitoring, regulatory intervention, etc. which would do no good whatsoever because someone always slips through the cracks and armchair quarterbacks later scream about red flags that no one ever sees until after the fact. No gee whiz batman stuff can fix a clever person intent on doing harm to himself and others. What CAN help is when one takes care of his friends and mates as he should and folks watch out for each other. But this can in practice only go so far.

One thing that CAN be done relatively easily is require (as many carriers already do) a F/A replace a pilot who leaves to go to the back so there are always 2 on the flight deck. It's not foolproof by any means, but does provide an additional level of safety at minimal trouble and is a good practice no matter what. In addition, having someone else there might have potentially kept this guy off the ledge, or at least had someone who could have tried to open the door.

[DropKnee]

If the bean counters are going to continue to put downward pressure of pilots. The net that is needed to hire them will continue to expand. We didn't have this type of problem 30 years ago. The need to have secured doors will no longer be required. Why, the killer will already be at the controls. You can only push and push.
Ungwenched greed is a evil and corrupting trait.
If you doubt it. Just open your eyes and look around.

[Shutterbug]

Why play into the airlines hands? Perfect opportunity for pilot unions around the world to rally for 3-crew flight decks again. Can be argued its a safety requirement and can be argued there are untold training benefits for the 3rd seater. Putting an F/A on the flight deck when required is at best a feel-good stopgap measure, and essentially useless.

The race to the bottom has to be reversed at some point. We can't just remain passive observers to the bloody wreckage that spineless bureaucrats are inflicting upon us.

[Farman Biplane]

Put a toilet back in the flight deck or move the door aft to where the toilet is?

[Frogman1484]

Yes I want 3 man to TPE!...and my own key to the cockpit door!

[McNugget]

If he merely wanted to off himself, he would have had a million opportunities to do it before this point.

What a stupid thing to say.

[Cpt. Underpants]

Questions being asked on the main thread...

Who sets the impossible rosters, and which authority lets them get away with it?
Who sets the impossible terms and conditions, and which authority lets them get away with it?
Who decided to do away with company ab-initio training, and which authority let them get away with it?
Who thought it would be a good idea to saddle beginners with €150k of debt, and which authority lets them get away with it?
Who let 200hr TT pilots fly a big jet, having done 30 minutes of stalling and spinning, and which authority let them get away with it?

*** crickets chirping ***

[Ghost_Rider737]

i agree ! low time pilots in Airliner flight decks is the root cause.

If you have endured contract/military flying accompanied by low pay and fatigue your level of resilience/maturity will be far higher once you join an airline.

The minimum age should be 25 years old with at least 1500 hours before you are considered by a major ! debt riddled airline cadets are NOT the answer.

[SOPS]

And let's not start on P2F

[de facto]

Why play into the airlines hands? Perfect opportunity for pilot unions around the world to rally for 3-crew flight decks again. Can be argued its a safety requirement and can be argued there are untold training benefits for the 3rd seater.
Great,what type do you fly?certainly not a B737...the third pilot experience in china experience is that it is more dangerous than anything else,they love to touch everything without letting you know,including unlocking the flight deck at the first sign of a cabin call.:}
Putting an F/A on the flight deck when required is at best a feel-good stopgap measure, and essentially useless.

Couldnt agree more...a pure PR exercise from the recent airlines in Europe..
A disgruntled,underpaid,overworked,unappreciated cabin crew,mentally vulnerable Cabin crew reaching the crew crash axe would be all required to finish off the remaining pilot.....
Id rather take the risk with a pilot whos assessment was relatively more in depth than our dear cabin colleagues..

[goathead]

The Crickets that are very clearly chirping will not be heard by this said authority as they do not understand colloquialisms and hence are MUTE to what is actually going on AND have there heads so far up our masters backsides there is no chance they will ever ever get it until ...... And that aint far around the corner

[Freehills]

Except that the other suspected cases of pilot suicide have involved ex-military pilots, and/or pilots with plenty of experience, so low time/ non military pilots is not the root cause - changes the risk not one iota...

Why did he fly when unfit? Would his loss of license insurance (if any...) cover depression?

[aislinn]

Farman has nailed it on the head. Move the cockpit door rearward. Its simple.
Cockpit crew stay in a secure area. Food? Push it through a small opening at the base of the prison like door.

[SOPS]

This could get very interesting. More than one airline thinks it's a good idea to use nasty grams to encourage people not to call in sick. Perhaps people might start to realise all of the ramifications of being able to fly for $3.50 a seat.

Having said that, there are a few, so called full service airlines that use the same tactics on their staff.

[Shep69]

I very much disagree that having 2 people on the flight deck would be useless. Not only is it a good practice to begin with, but also has value in prevention. It's one thing to run an airliner into a hill safely in front of a locked door with faceless entities behind you and quite another to have to brutally attack and incapacitate another person--up close and personal--who would be directly fighting back for their life and then go do your evil deed. During the while the other individual could be doing SOMETHING and might even manage to get the door open.

In fact, most of the mass attacks by crazies on groups have been done with the premise that they would not or could not fight back under the circumstances (disparity in armament and/or force and shock with a lack of understanding of the victims what was going on).

Now that this HAS happened, crew know that it CAN happen and think about what to do in such a scenario.

While it might not stop dedicated miscreants (like in the FedEx case which was a planned attack in a suicide for insurance situation), it might be enough to keep a crazy off the ledge long enough for other factors of behaviour to be discovered through peer monitoring and real time personal history factors.

Obviously this disturbed individual was looking for the opportunity to be alone to do his deed. While the 2-person concept isn't a cure all by any means, it is a start and I believe has value at little or no cost. Why not ?

[BusyB]

All Freighters must be 3 pilot then. Or is it back to the days of a stewardess to look after us and our catering:ok:

Seriously, I can't see 2 persons on the F/D being any safer apart from stopping you falling asleep. If someone is half as sick as this guy with the CX pressure on him and has gone to work I can't see a hostie stopping him breaking up the aircraft:sad:

[broadband circuit]

Sickness Management Program?
Systemic pressure from the Company to not call in sick?
Nastygrams from the DFO threatening those who call sick?

How about D & G process for pilots who arrive at work to receive a roster change at sign-on to a back of the clock flight, and decline the flight on fatigue/safety concerns

[Freehills]

Aislinn, so we have now seen suicide, or suicide attempts, from American, EU, Asian and Middle Eastern pilots. Maybe we should only recruit from South America from now on...?

[goathead]

The said bloke received a letter on file and misses his pay increment for a year
Meanwhile CAD phonies continue to allow and perpetrate this mess CX call a 'roster ' and ' sickness management program ' and 'Corporate safety department '
Lads be very careful with some say is the AB CP

[hawkerjet]

The explosive growth in air travel has not been managed well by the airlines since it started back in the 90's. Because of this, opportunist executives saw a possibility of financial gain using the low cost model which many have crafted and customised for their model. The perverse idea of pay for training was a bad idea that was spawned from this growth and has woven itself into the fabric of aviation. Quick turnarounds, sales gimmicks on board, cuts in other crucial positions, have all contributed to this stew in the name of making more money with less resources and working your staff to the limit ( and sometimes beyond) in the name of productivity. While some people won't agree with my opinion, it has led to the demise of what was once a proud and distinguished profession.
My .02

[stevieboy330]

45kg 20 year old canto BC V'S 90kg 45 Year old western Pilot with a crow bar, hell bent on killing himself & everyone on board, the outcome is going to be pretty obvious. IF you had 3 of our girls up the front, the plane is still going down!

[Soul planet]

http://i61.tinypic.com/k3w4ya.jpg

Yes! Stevie boy!

[CokeZero]

Whilst the CVR is not officially in the public forum and this is purely hypothetical then I submit this as one possible solution.

What I find hard to fathom is the recording from the CVR. Various people have quoted that from the CVR is that during the minutes leading up to the crash, the F/O's breathing is calm. I haven't heard it but usually when a person is in a heightened state then the breathing wouldn't be calm.

IF the F/O was awake and alert and trying to instigate an accident then his breathing would be louder and excited. His breathing remained calm.... which could lead me to think that he either had his eyes shut to avoid the psychological stress that would be occurring OR his performance was impaired because he was already passed out (Due to what ever reason).

The final option is that he was psychologically affected and was hell bent on inflected damage to himself and the plane.

What ever the final version - we will have to wait unit the report comes out.

I'm not totally convinced yet that it was intentional..... Wait and see

[Lowkoon]

Maybe he knew if he took 7 sick days his €200 bonus would be slashed?

So three people is the answer? What happens when two of them conspire to do something when the third isn't watching? Do we get four?

This tragic soul is an outlier amongst human beings, not just amongst pilots. Yes, our industry will need to be seen to respond with some procedural change that typically won't cost the airlines anything, but will probably significantly inconvenience the tens of thousands of pilots who turn up to work and get the job done every day. The fleet office will whack a zero tolerance policy on omission of the new procedure on the next line check, and so it goes on.

[Soul planet]

Sorry none for me please :yuk::yuk: yuck

[Cpt. Underpants]

This time, from the BBC (referring to the mental state of the F/O)

She added that he became stressed when they spoke about work: "He became upset about the conditions we worked under: too little money, fear of losing the contract, too much pressure."

Are you paying attention, AT?

[DropKnee]

Whilst the CVR is not officially in the public forum and this is purely hypothetical then I submit this as one possible solution.

What I find hard to fathom is the recording from the CVR. Various people have quoted that from the CVR is that during the minutes leading up to the crash, the F/O's breathing is calm. I haven't heard it but usually when a person is in a heightened state then the breathing wouldn't be calm.

IF the F/O was awake and alert and trying to instigate an accident then his breathing would be louder and excited. His breathing remained calm.... which could lead me to think that he either had his eyes shut to avoid the psychological stress that would be occurring OR his performance was impaired because he was already passed out (Due to what ever reason).

The final option is that he was psychologically affected and was hell bent on inflected damage to himself and the plane.

What ever the final version - we will have to wait unit the report comes out.

I'm not totally convinced yet that it was intentional..... Wait and see
Cokezero
If you believe this guy did not intentionally murder those people. Your a fool. I am guessing your a flaming liberal and don't believe in evil?
If it is reveled that LH knew this guy was wacky. There will be hell to pay.

[Frogman1484]

If he was passed out, he would not have set 100' on the altimeter.

I think what is important to learn from this is that we cannot have the "sickness management program " that Cathay has. This only intimidates the air crew to fly when unfit!

[Just Do It]

Please lets not confuse this guy who who was clearly Psychopathic, leading to a Pathological state, resulting in the death of all these people. To a guy or gal going through a tough time in life needing a time out to reboot. I know of a number of people who have gone through a phase in life requiring help from a LACK of SLEEP, POOR DIET, LACK OF EXERCISE, FAMILY ISSUES (PERSONAL LOSS OR A MANAGER SORTING OUT A PARTNER) and hitting the bottle a little harder than normal. All have sorted themselves out!!! Seems work has a big influence on your state of mental and physical health, not that anyone on the third floor gives two hoots!!

So now its open season on flight crew!

Bitter and twisted ex-partners of Pilots phoning work saying "he or she said this" about you with no evidence and next thing is career over........

On the other side of the coin, I never want see a repeat of what has just happened!!!!!!!!!!!

[goathead]

Until the Regulatory authorities if that what you want to call them untie themselves and unbecome box tickers and sub departments of the airlines this isn't going anywhere and nothing is going to change.
Do you really think the HKCAD is a forward thinking big picture department ? No chance ! They are a bunch of box ticking fuel log checking nitwits with absolutely not much idea
Its just absoluty insane CX can get away with D N G a pilot who stood up and manned up to a safety issue only to be threatened , absolute madness and its our ' regulatory bosses' and ' corporate safety department ' who let them get away with it ....

[Max Reheat]

Goathead,

On the one hand I would suspect you are correct; however, and more likely, I suspect there will be a knee-jerk reaction from regulatory authorities across the world hiding behind the premise of increasing public safety but in reality an ill considered attemp to assuage the ever increasingly vocal and powerful media, thus assuring themselves that should there ever be a repeat that they can argue they did all they could have done.

The reality is that our profession will be yet further degraded by beauraucrats unwilling to make the hard decisions. Companies worldwide will jump on board, again citing public safety to enact even more severe oversight and sanctions upon their crews.

It is a pipe dream to suspect that this will be an end to the Absence Management Programme. The Company will argue that it is even more important now so that they can monitor and lend assistance to those who clearly need it most!

Just wait for them to empower ISMs to report directly on pilots whom they believe to be suffering from some kind of psychological disorder. It will make alcohol reporting look like a primary school fairy tale!

[Sam Ting Wong]

A loss of license due to mental illness is not covered by most insurers. This could be a motive to hide an illness and must be reversed. Any person unfit to fly must be able to report sick without the risk of any disadvantages plus any reason that leads to a loss of license must be sufficiently covered by a respective insurance.
Also the stigma of a depression in a sort of male/macho culture could be a factor.
Ask yourself honestly: would you accept depression as a reason to call in sick to the same degree as e.g. a cold or a bone fracture?

[goathead]

Max
Good points
However your wrong on one point , the company dont argue. They dictact and the CAD allow , thats how it works here
Theres no way round it , its a HK thing its endemic in the Beuracracy that rubbers stamps everything in this town

[Gnadenburg]

In the USAF, anyone who has anything to do with nukes: pilots, navigators, load masters, security forces, ordinance guys, get every 6 month reviews of health, mental status, finances, performance reports. Anything out of the ordinary gets investigated.

Wouldn't the public love those protocols mandated for pilots.

Anecdotal evidence points towards depression becoming a serious issue in HKG and it's being hidden for obvious reasons. I don't think pilot management have much of a clue and they'd be well served working hard with unions on successful peer support models.

[Shep69]

Sam, you have it dead right. Encumbrances to those seeking help (or others who might refer someone with issues) must be broken down and companies willing to back this/have strong EAP "no jeopardy" programs--and take the economics out of it (i.e. don't lose your income just because you get sick). And have a way to recertify people after they've dealt with problems.

Further regulatory burdens will only drive more people more underground. This guy was tearing up doctors notes lest someone find out about them. You can't write laws to find people who don't want to be found. This guy could just as easily made up a phony name and/or ID for his doctor visits, gone to a doctor in a foreign country without records, self-medicated, or just not seen anyone for anything. Not saying that a bunch of idiots with pens might not head in that direction, only if they do it will only make the problem worse and punish the innocent (as well as those who COULD benefit from help to stave off problems before they become mountains).

Gnadenberg, as someone with firsthand experience of these, they do NOT work when it comes to mental health or substance abuse problems--UNLESS something significant happens to flag someone (which doesn't happen until the point it becomes really, really bad). A person with significant issues can run under the radar for his or her entire career (fearing the ramifications of getting help which is even worse when the person has problems and isn't thinking straight to begin with). PRP was a significant encumbrance to individuals and families from getting counseling and help who genuinely would have benefited from it. Mental health (even for skills to deal with family and normal problems that crop up in life) had such a stigma that it was avoided like the plague. Even a simple question on a physical like "do you find your job stressful" was usually checked 'no' lest one have to go through a nutroll to unscrew the results.

I do VERY much agree a strong relationship between union and management in developing a real assistance model (geared toward getting the individual well) with strong peer support is the key to success here.