Witnessing a crash

[Binners93]

Hi All!

So despite the great deal of training that we go through for practising PFLs and EFATOs (which has been a hot topic in this forum recently), I can still concede the dread that occurs when it happens in front of you - even to another pilot!

To put a long story short, I was flying with an instructor to EGHH for some CAS practice last Saturday when an ever decreasing cloud base at Portsmouth stopped us in our tracks. We were returning back to EGKA and heard that same M word three times you never want to hear! G-CCHD; a Diamond DA40 had experienced an engine failure and was gliding into a field about 1nm north of us - perfectly visible from above. Despite the knowledge that the pilot flying it was experienced, you couldn't help but feel useless simply watching as his aircraft get closer to the ground. He managed to make it down (whilst ballooning a little) and survived a collision with a ditch at the end (along with 3 now recently deceased sheep) - though the aircraft was a write off.

VIDEO: Dog walkers narrowly avoid aircraft crash - Worthing Herald (http://www.worthingherald.co.uk/news/local/video-dog-walkers-narrowly-avoid-aircraft-crash-1-6620095)

Being a low hour PPL holder, I am always on guard to prepare for this sort of thing, but wonder how my abilities will stack up if ever actually faced with it. :bored:

It's made me wonder if any of you guys have witnessed another pilot crash and how it helped you with how you might deal with a similar emergency? :ouch:

It's not my intention to bring up bad memories of lost friends for anyone who has experienced it, merely a discussion that may prove useful to pilots like myself who still have a lot to learn!

[Pace]

Binner

It doesn't matter how good you are in a forced landing there will always be an element of luck.

Even the best pilot in the world cannot see a hole in the middle of a field or a bog or an animal running into the aircraft and there is always the chance that he might remove the nose so there will always be an element of risk in a forced landing.

The main thing is to always keep the aircraft flying as the big killers are stall spin accidents.
There are many reasons for those but one of the biggest is selecting a landing spot and stretching the glide to try and get there so never fixate on one landing spot but be aware of other potential if not ideal sites left and right of your track.

Be prepared to change plan if plan A is not working anymore.
In Aviation always fly with get outs never with all the doors closed and only one available to you because that is playing Russian roulette.

Don't fixate on landing into wind better to take a longer field with a 5 KT tailwind if its a better option. Yes ideally land into wind but in situations like that things are not always ideal.

Above all keep the thing flying and watch making steep turns without trading height for energy so try to keep the turns gentle

Stay calm as in a panic its surprising how all you have learnt goes out of the window and you end up doing crazy and fatal things

Pace

[RatherBeFlying]

You make the best approach you can into the most reasonable looking field you can easily reach.

Aim 1/3 of the way down until obstacles are cleared; then add as much drag as you can until flare.

Trees are generally survivable if terrain otherwise hostile.

The key is to land under control.

As to bank, I'm happy with 45 degree banks because it gets you through the turn quickly, but we glider folks spend a lot of time in thermals:p

If you are current with PFAs, use the bank you've trained with.

My worry with shallow banks is the temptation to "help" the turn with rudder and maybe pull a bit back to hold altitude -- the classic stall/spin recipe:uhoh:

[mary meagher]

Yes, but did he have roast lamb for dinner? (sheep are known to leap into the air when a large possible predator flies suddenly close overhead) A field landing is an absolute non event for a glider pilot.

And Pace, your list of priorities....I would hope that even guys flying power would have an idea of the wind strength and direction while just flying normally...if it is a strong wind even a small field will do...IF you land approx. into wind. So it does matter. The bigger field the better, we remember to choose a field for SIZE, SLOPE, AND SURFACE. Surface... if you are an engine out plane with a 14 to one glide ratio, the field chooses you. But always if the wind is strong, try to land into wind.

As far as slope goes, uphill good, downhill sometimes hard to stop.

Binners 93, you observed the event, did your instructor advise the authorities that the pilot got out OK? I presume you circled the site to make sure.

I was asked once to search for a downed helicopter. Found it eventually, it had just landed normally, and they waved all OK.

[xrayalpha]

Witnessed a few crashes, one of the "joys" of flying in the early days of microlighting and now running an airfield.

First is: rehearse what the vital actions are.

So when we had a crash the other month - fell out the sky 150m short of the runway - I told someone to phone 999 and ask for fire and one ambulance (I knew there was only 1 PoB). I then picked up fire extinguisher and fire axe and leapt in car (a 4x4) and headed for the field. Once saw PoB was out the aircraft I told him to switch off master, stand clear and wait for the foot people. I then returned to clubhouse, where person was still on phone to 999, and said cancel the fire and ambulance. 999 sent them - three fire engines, two ambulances and three or four police cars - anyway!

In the meantime, was had a solo student returning from a cross-country nav ex. So had to brief him on radio as to situation, and tell them to go around if it started looking wrong because of distraction.

Then there was phone calls and paperwork.

Second: once there is a crash, and you've witnessed it - stay calm. Be aware of the effects of stress, and take care.

Personally, I stop flying for the day.

[thing]

Second: once there is a crash, and you've witnessed it - stay calm. Be aware of the effects of stress, and take care.

Personally, I stop flying for the day.

To contrast: back in the day when I worked for HM I was out on the pan walking with three crews to their respective F4's. The circuit was busy and one 'Toom did a roller with what was obviously a broken donk as black smoke was streaming out the back. This was followed by two large bangs and two Martin Baker letdowns. The a/c flopped down a couple of miles away in a great fireball. (XV416, 1975) None of the crews stopped walking, no one said anything except one nav who turned to his pilot and said 'Weren't we supposed to be flying that one this afternoon?'

The other one I saw was at Binbrook, Barry Lennon was working up a display in an F3 over the airfield when he found the hard way that the ventral tank had feed problems in certain attitudes. Another MB letdown. Down comes Barry and he's whisked away to the med centre where all systems are found to be functioning correctly. First thing he did was get on the blower and call his OC with the now classic 'That one's broken Boss, can I have another one?'

[skyhighfallguy]

binners.

I've watched a plane right out of engine overhaul, stall spin in the turn to base leg...the pilot broke his wrist.

I've watched a guy come in too fast and break off the nose gear, trying to force the plane on the ground. There was enough time for me to point out to my student that he was going to crash before he crashed. No injuries.


I've watched a jet crash in severe wx. 37 dead.


The trouble is I knew how to avoid each of these (and more) prior to the crash. And you probably know too.


So, what did I learn? That everything I had read about was right.

That you don't have to learn by crashing, but by studying .


One can also avoid crashes by the careful selection of aircraft, good preflights and examinations of documents to ensure the plane is well maintained.

So learn, but every situation you are likely to encounter, someone else has encountered before and it has been written about. Think ahead, look for places to land REGARDLESS of the type of plane you are flying.

Did you find out WHY the plane you saw crash, had an engine failure?


In 40 years of flying I have never had a complete engine failure, rough perhaps, reduced power a bit, but it never quit completely.

Engines quit because someone was careless somewhere. It is very rare that they just break apart. I am speaking of modern engines of course, including turbine, and post WW2 piston on the planes you will likely fly.

Check everything and always be ready, and you probably will never have to use your ADVANCE preparations. IT is when you are not ready, that bad things happen.

[Pace]

.I would hope that even guys flying power would have an idea of the wind strength and direction while just flying normally.

Mary Yes I absolutely know where the winds are :ok: all the time. Its the element we fly in whether landing or are correcting for enroute so every pilot should be able to feel those winds horizontally and vertically

But that is not the point I was making! One of the biggest stall spin situations is the poor guy/gal that fixates onto a nice into wind landing site to realise they have got it wrong and try to stretch the glide with increasing AOA and drag when left or right are acceptable alternatives which may not have ideal winds and may mean you take out a hedge or fence or ditch! but better that than stalling in from 50 feet

But really we are onto forced landings again which wasn't really what the OP asked. He was talking about witnessing a crash? I used to race cars in my 20s so we witnessed crashes and had crashes many times it was part of the occupation. Go to any circuit and most spectators will go to corners where they will see cars crashing its part of the excitement or thrill! Someone being injured or killed was a different experience and the crowds would go quite and become visibly upset.

As for pilots or racing drivers we don't like to see someone injured or killed because it makes us aware of our own vulnerability! We love to think that the pilot was an idiot an accident waiting to happen because we would never be like that and as such would never end up the same way.

when its a good pilot or one we consider better than us in a sound well kept and equipped aircraft then its a different matter now we are aware and feel vulnerable as there for the grace of God go I ?

Its probably a good thing as in that state of awareness we are more alert to the mistakes made and learn.
its strange how fatal accidents threads get so many hits one side saying don't discuss it wait for the AAIB reports.

i am in the camp which says yes lets discuss such accidents as its only by discussion taking the accidents apart rightfully or wrongfully that we are open to learn. And only when the accidents are fresh in our minds.

A year later when the AAIB report comes out its long forgotten and no one is interested.


Pace

[thing]

No point being fixated on the wind, would you rather land with a ten knot tailwind into a 1000 metre meadow or a ten knot headwind into a 300 metre ploughed field? Field selection (with of course a nod to the wind if appropriate and if you have time) is all.

Better of course to land with a headwind into the 1,000 metre meadow but it doesn't always pan out like that.

[Talkdownman]

Cleared a Seven-Two to land once, but it ran out of sky on short final, 69 dead. Difficult to witness in 100m FZFG...

[dobbin1]

No point being fixated on the wind, would you rather land with a ten knot tailwind into a 1000 metre meadow or a ten knot headwind into a 300 metre ploughed field? Field selection (with of course a nod to the wind if appropriate and if you have time) is all.

Better of course to land with a headwind into the 1,000 metre meadow but it doesn't always pan out like that.
Not many 1,000 metre meadows around where I do my flying, so your example is a bit extreme.

Be careful not to underestimate the benefit from landing into wind. An aircraft with a 70kt groundspeed has almost twice the kinetic energy that the same aircraft has with a 50kt groundspeed. That energy has to go somewhere and could make all the difference in a real world scenario.

[thing]

Be careful not to underestimate the benefit from landing into wind.I'm not at all. Just saying that in extremis and given the choice of landing downwind into a long flat field and upwind into a short lumpy field I would take the former. Just don't do it by rote that's all, 'I have an engine failure, I must land into wind' isn't always the best way, every situation is different. Plenty of very big fields up here, if I were flying where there were a lot of very little fields then I would be into wind as there would be no advantage in doing otherwise.

[mary meagher]

Well, it depends on the wind strength, doesn't it! No doubt I have told this story before, but when I was having a check ride in my Supercub with a guy who checks out pilots in Boeings, (one of the best supervisors in the UK, IMHO,) he pulled power back when we were about 3,000 over Banbury.

"There you go, sick engine. What are you going to do about it?"

Well, going back to the home airfield, the wind was behind us, but not strong at all at all. Helpful, however. I didn't have enough power to maintain height, and we were in a slow descent. So in reach of the gliding club, I landed straight in, downwind. No problem.

He had been planning to pull the power back entirely if I had tried to fly a normal circuit!

The point is, be aware of wind strength and direction. Its good to know.

[Pace]

Be careful not to underestimate the benefit from landing into wind. An aircraft with a 70kt groundspeed has almost twice the kinetic energy that the same aircraft has with a 50kt groundspeed. That energy has to go somewhere and could make all the difference in a real world scenario.

But the last place you want that energy going is vertically into the ground and you attached to it!!

Of course and into wind landing is far far preferable but if you are going for your interwind field and realise you have got the glide wrong to make it and there is a line of trees in front you need to clear do you pull back and try to stretch the glide to clear the trees with fingers crossed or take an adequate field which isn't into wind on your left or slightly behind?

Never fly committed to one course of action always be thinking of other options in case that one door closes on you! and be prepared to change in a blink to plan B. If you enter a room and there is only one door and that one door slams locked you are stuffed.

I know what my choice would be

Pace

[Lazerdog]

Witnessing a crash is always sobering and sometimes very sad. Here is my experience:

Attending my first Oshkosh Airshow at 17 years of age, a two-place home-built spun in on a tight turn to final 200 yards from me. Two dead. I still remember the "thunk" when it hit.

Draftsman at my first real job was working on his PPL, lost an engine and did a great landing into a cornfield. He just pointed it forward and kept up airspeed.

Friend died at an airshow. Pyrotechnic wire bound up in an aileron bellcrank. That was a guy you always learned from when you were just having coffee with him at the airport, and he is sorely missed.

Another acquaintance spun in inverted with a Pitts.


Aviation is one of the most rewarding things man can do, but it is also very unforgiving. I know for a fact that my primary and later instructors kept me alive by telling me the most basic things, but they are still the important ones. I hope to never see another crash as there is always that retrospective and contemplative period that follows.

[Vick Van Guard]

My instructor says "if you're going to crash try and do it the right way up going as slow as possible". Wise words.

I think they are attributed to the late great Neil Williams.

[Pace]

Vick

so with my scenario above would you fly into a headwind as slow as possible into the line of trees or take an unobstructed field on your left with a 5 KT tailwind factor ? even if that field had a fence 350 meters at the end
Ie hitting the trees with the headwind at 50 KTS or running through the fence at maybe 20 KTS and remember once on the ground you still have directional control to even spin the aircraft if need be or avoid objects

Interested in your course of action ;)

Pace

[mary meagher]

5 knots tailwind not a lot. of course it is better to stuff it in the hedge at the end of the ground run, rather than stuff it in the trees at 80 knots. Or get dumped by a wire between the trees that grabbed your plane.

Going back to the original question, if you witness a crash and can help, you help. Sensibly. Good thing about gliders crashing, they seldom burn.
But my own first aid training and experience says don't move somebody who is in pain, you can make an injury worse. Which makes a problem if there is avgas or jetfuel involved....in that case, move him!

And if you like to be ready to be of use, carry a fire extinguisher in your car.
The 999 call is first priority...it is just amazing how quick the emergency chaps turn up when you mention plane crash...and how many turn up! fire engines, helicopters, the lot!

[strake]

Few years back, I was at the hold after a short visit to Stapleford. When we landed, we had been warned there was a tailwind component (why we weren't landing the other way, I don't know) and I had been surprised by the effect. Anyway, similar warning went out to an AA5 on short finals. As I watched him sail overhead, I just knew it wasn't going to make it. Despite this, he landed way down the runway and tried to stop...and then tried to go-round..but failed and ended up hopping over a hedge and collapsing the castoring nose-wheel. All managed to evacuate OK but it brought home to me the very different feeling that a 'slight' tailwind component brings when it hasn't been experienced before.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Booking out at Liverpool some years ago I noted a tailwind of about 5 knots, runway 27 in use. "Any chance of a runway change to 09?" I asked the controller. "We have to co-ordinate with Manchester to do that or the traffic flows don't work. They don't have quite so much of a tailwind and a lot of aircraft vectoring for a westerly approach".

It wouldn't make much difference taking off on such a ginormous runway, but it would have been nice to be able to land without a tailwind. The tailwind was slightly stronger on my return, still on 27, but all went well.

[Pace]

Few years back, I was at the hold after a short visit to Stapleford. When we landed, we had been warned there was a tailwind component (why we weren't landing the other way, I don't know) and I had been surprised by the effect. Anyway, similar warning went out to an AA5 on short finals. As I watched him sail overhead, I just knew it wasn't going to make it. Despite this, he landed way down the runway and tried to stop...and then tried to go-round..but failed and ended up hopping over a hedge and collapsing the castoring nose-wheel. All managed to evacuate OK but it brought home to me the very different feeling that a 'slight' tailwind component brings when it hasn't been experienced before

Who's fault is it that they cannot accurately land with a tailwind component ? Instructors? or incapable pilot ???

You will get them all the time or be offered a runway with a tailwind tailwind component! As long as its within the manual limits and the runway is long enough take it why not?

All you have displayed is a very incompetent pilot flying an AA5 sorry to say that but its fact

Would i want someone I cared about flying with a pilot like that? No thank you

:ugh:

Pace

[Gertrude the Wombat]

tailwind of about 5 knots
I was once upon a time hanging around Luton waiting to pick up my wife (before we were married) who was returning on some loco flight.

I had my Sony Air 7 with me. I heard ATC asking the pilot whether he preferred a straight-in with a 5 kt tailwind or whether he wanted to fly a normal circuit.

Obviously he could save a couple of minutes' fuel by accepting the tailwind, so that's what he did.

"He didn't half bang it onto the runway and then slam on the anchors," she said.

[Pace]

GTW

Was that in the days when there was a GA Light aircraft park along a side taxiway

Luton for airlines is fairly short at best of times but for a piston single massive and the pilots will bang it on the numbers and go for full reverse thrust.

Was that such a Jet with the tailwind or a light single aircraft? If a light single aircraft then there are some pretty bad pilots around who shouldn't be flying if they cannot land with 5 KTS especially for a light single and a huge runway like Luton?

Pace

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

The danger of landing a tail wheel aeroplane downwind is the potential for loss of directional control as the airspeed falls faster than the ground speed on the roll out. That was my concern that day at Liverpool.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

It was a loco jet coming back from the Med somewhere.

[Private jet]

The only crash I've witnessed (& from a distance!) was an MEP on a training flight, AFAIK simulated single engine go-around. Got below Vmca with the inevitable consequences . Crashed in the clear zone beyond the end of the runway. Both occupants got out ok before the thing went up in flames and being in the States the airport was back up and running after a quarter of an hour. No fuss.

[tecman]

Lazerdog's post struck a chord with me. About 12 years ago I witnessed a fully-loaded C172 stall and crash after take-off. I've described some of the circumstances in an earlier PPRuNe post but the thing that stays with me is the terrible 'whump' as the aircraft hit the ground.

One of the hardest things at the time was needing to break through the optimism bias of many people. The aircraft was almost below a tree-line at the the time and, while I was quite sure what I'd seen and heard, I was surprised at the push-back by the local club management. Mercifully, it was all instantaneous and, in retrospect, a short delay in locating the crash was irrelevant. But if you find yourself in this position, you may find you have to thump the table hard to get some action. One of the accident investigators later told me that this is a very common observation.

As Lazerdog hints the effect on witnesses, while trivial compared to that on the occupants and their families, does linger a bit. I was grumpy for six months or so after the crash mainly, I think, because the accident was avoidable and because it was a hard to watch the world (including pilots) be cursorily dismissive of an accident where 4 people died.

Interestingly enough, while it made me consider carefully relevant factors such as take off configuration, apparent slip and skid with a strong wind near the ground, etc it never affected my desire to fly. Indeed, as in so many other trials we navigate, I suspect the joy we pilots get from flying is a powerful recovery aid.

[Lazerdog]

Tecman.... Agreed. I think we need to learn from what we witness and what we are taught. Coordinated turns when you get low or slow or both is something that first crash ingrained in me. I did a lot of mountain flying in the past and I still remember my instructor saying "keep one wing in the shade", meaning fly close to the canyon sides so you can execute a 180 when required, and I have been there. I also had a seat rail latch break on rotation on a Cessna 182 and just let the airplane fly itself to a safe altitude before I tried to do anything. (Those latches have killed dozens in -182's) Same instructor had told me that "An airplane will fly itself unless you screw it up", which is more good advice and helped me on the day the seat latch put me 20 inches from the yoke. Always remember that airspeed is your friend, and if you lose an engine on take off, a very strong push is usually required before you can look for that golf course or before you decide which engine just bought it.

[A and C]

I was very near a high performance taidragger that was being demonstrated by the pilot, the aircraft made a steep climb and at about 250 ft stalled and started to enter a spin, the aircraft hit the ground and a parked aircraft and burst into flames. I don't think any one could have survived that crash. I and several other bystanders had to restrain a man who had been so near the crash that he had suffered very bad burns but was wandering about in a semi dazed state walking away from the accident site ( and the rapidly approaching ambulance ).

Between the bystanders we managed to get the guy into the care of an ambulance crew quite quickly.

On the whole a terrible day, it made me much more considered about the way I fly aircraft.

[Whirlybird]

At Welshpool Airfield one day, many years ago...

A few of us were watching a microlight pilot take off, a student who'd just landed at Welshpool on a solo landaway. He must have been at about 1000 ft when there was a loud bang, then silence. We saw him turn 90 degrees and start descending. We could see approximately where he would have landed, so three of us joined the airfield owner in his Landrover and headed in that direction. Parked car, scaled a fence, reached microlight in field. He'd done very well, it looked a perfect field, but he was unlucky enough to hit a hidden ditch in the long grass, and the aircraft turned over. He was alright, but very disorientated, and had no recollection of what had happened. We all helped carry him out to the vehicle, and if I recall rightly, someone drove him to hospital. I can't remember the details of the outcome, but I believe he was OK.

As someone (Mary?) said earlier on, even the best pilot can't see a hidden ditch. This chap did very well, particularly for a student.

On where to land, I vaguely remember a story - true I believe - of a pilot who had engine failure over New York. No fields of course, so he flew through the window of a skyscraper. He took the wings off, but landed safely, and was uninjured enough to walk to the ambulance. If that's true, wow!

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

Ah, New York. There a was a chap there a few years ago who suffered EFATO, both engines, in a big aeroplane.

That turned out well, but he was quite a pilot!

[Flyboater]

A few years ago I witnessed a mid-air collision when a Cessna 150 doing a touch and go hit a flexwing microlight at about 400 feet after takeoff. I was downwind at the time and watched as the Cessna (2nd solo after 1st solo an hour earlier) flew into the back of the flexwing which had taken off a few moments before. One wing separated from the Cessna and it spun to the ground. The flexwing fluttered to the ground.
I could almost hear the pilot's instructors voice - "Watch your airspeed", and I'm sure that was what the pilot was doing, at the expense of looking out of the window.
The pilot died, but incredibly the occupants of the flexwing, which fluttered more slowly to the ground, escaped with a broken ankle, cuts and bruises.
I hope I never see anything like that again.

[kenparry]

Luton for airlines is fairly short at best of times .... and the pilots will bang it on the numbers and go for full reverse thrust.

Well, airline pilots are certainly not taught to do that. LTN, at 7000 ft long, has plenty of length for aircraft such as Airbus up to 321, B737/757. In fact with the B757 you can get airborne at max structural weight even in Summer.

The intended touchdown point for medium jets is 1000 ft from the landing threshold, for widebodies it's 1500ft. If some crews "bang it on the numbers" they are risking a close encounter with the runway lip - exactly what the planned touchdown point is intended to avoid.

[pulse1]

I think I have mentioned this before but one of my "witness" experiences was a glider crash. I was acting as "midfield bat" when they launched a Tutor single seat glider into a very strong wind. The glider climbed steeply to about 100ft and then rolled inverted and dived into the ground.

As I ran towards it I was aware that I was likely to be the first to arrive on scene and dreaded what I would find. I looked into the wreckage and, to my amazement, there was no sign of the pilot. I looked around and there he was sitting on the ground, apparently unhurt but looking very green.

I have witnessed four glider crashes, one fatal, but this was the only one in which I was involved as a witness.

[mary meagher]

Any parent has experienced accidents when the kids are growing up. You don't scream and shout and run about. You get calm and quiet and assess the injury...does the kid need a doctor or the hospital? Then into the car and off to the hospital PDQ without waiting for a second opinion....this was way out in the countryside.

While organising trips for our Oxford Ice Skating Club, we would take a couple of coaches to Solihull, Southampton, or Bristol. Ice hurts if you fall over. I grew quite skilled being able to tell from the look on his face whether or not we had to stop at the hospital!

Same thing when a good friend hurt his back in a glider, you could tell by the look on his face better not to move him. These days we require impact cushions in the gliders, it makes quite a difference to have this protection installed and nobody should fly without making sure the impact cushion is in place. An ounce of prevention...

[Pace]

http://www.thehindu.com/multimedia/dynamic/00563/24sm_runway2_jpg_563162g.jpg

Kenparry

Bang it on the numbers is a descriptive phrase meaning that airlines with all the inertia cannot afford to hold off and do literally bang it on the numbers. For Airlines Luton is short.

Consider Heathrow is 12900 feet long :ugh:7000 is not a Heathrow ))

Where on earth do you get your 1000 feet and 1500 feet from?
A typical picture above clearly showing typical tyre marks

Pace

[skyhighfallguy]

7000' is longer than chicago midway (KMDW) orange county santa ana(KSNA), Washington National (KDCA) and many other runways used by jet airliners in the USA. And when you add in low altitude maneuvering required at some airports, I would love to have 7000'.

Kenparry is quite right in saying the 1000' fixed distance marker is a good point for touchdown as he describes and is APPROXIMATELY where the ILS Glideslope intercepts the runway. Pace, I don't know where you get your ideas.

1500' is usually used for widebody aircraft or other larger/longer types. This has to do with eye height and landing gear position.

I've never even heard of Luton, but the picture looks quite nice with all that pretty grass. Runway number seems on the small side.

ON THE NUMBERS can mean putting the wheels right where 19L is. But only rarely would an airliner intentionally put it ON THE NUMBERS.

PACE mentions inertia. Well, there is quite a bit of inertia, but the brakes (wheel brakes) on an airliner are quite strong compared to those of a C152.

PACE, you also ask where KENPARRY got that 1000' 1500' bit, well , since you are british, why not read "Handling the Big Jets' by DP Davies and explains just what KENPARRY has been talking about. And DP is british.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I have witnessed 3 crashes

The first was a C 172 that touchdown nose wheel first and then continued bouncing until after the 4th nose wheel first hit, the nose wheel strut broke off. The aircraft was also quite crooked at this time so it departed the side of the runway and ground looped when a wing tip dug in. Nobody hurt but the aircraft was wrecked. The wind was right down the runway at about 5 kts

The second was when a pilot landed his Arrow wheels up. He had not flown for several years but declined several suggestions that he should do a bit of dual with an instructor.

The third involved a low level EFATO in a C 185. The engine failed without enough runway to stop. It went off the end of the runway and then groundlooped with heavy damage. The engine failed because the fuel was turned off and the fuel in the collector tank was exhausted.

3 wrecked airplanes that were 100 %, totally, absolutely preventable......

[skyhighfallguy]

big pistons

wow. you are right on of course. I realize that arrows USE to have automatic landing gear extension and that some legal thing has changed that. But it is amazing. Was the arrow crack up before that automatic extension was disabled?

[9 lives]

Most of the accidents I have witnessed have been minor, with one exception, which put me off airshows forever. In the early '80's several of us flew to Oshkosh for a day. A Siai Marchetti pilot was demonstrating an SF260. The announcer said that the pilot would now demonstrate a spin. He did. The problem was that he was only a few hundred feet up. He entered, got the rotation stopped, pulled up, and slammed into the runway right in front of me, going down fast in a level attitude. He killed himself. The flying stopped for the day, and it was hours before the runway was cleared at the end of the day so we could fly home. What a waste.

In my capacity as a volunteer firefighter, I've had to attend many crashes in our area. I've had to help lift two dead friends out of their crashed planes over the years - you can't not, they're your friends.....

It reminds you to fly well though...

[733driver]

Sorry Pace

No airline pilot should slam it "on the numbers". If one follows the PAPI or the ILS glide slope (normally 3 degrees) to touchdown one will never be near the "numbers" but cross the threshold at about 50 feet and touch down no earlier than about 1000 ft in, 1500 being very common. This is true for auto land as well as manual landings. In fact "short landing ops (crossing the threshold at 35 instead of 50 feet and touching down only(!) about 700 feet past the threshold as opposed to the usual 1000 feet or more is only allowed for small aircraft where the wheels are less than 3 meters below the pilot's eye line (Air OPS) and where there is an acceptable clear area in front of the runway threshold.

[kenparry]

Where on earth do you get your 1000 feet and 1500 feet from?

Pace, since you ask: from 20+ years as an airline pilot, much of that as a training captain, much of it based at Luton. No, LTN is not LHR; but if you want to try a short runway for a jet, go to some of the Greek islands, such as Mykonos or Skiathos, which handle holiday jets with full loads.

skyhifallguy: Luton is one of London's minor airports with a single runway, 08/26; the photo is not there, nor anywhere in the UK.

[JEM60]

Been around the Airshow circuit for many years. 11 crashes witnessed, sadly 9 fatals. I got the impression at one point that disaster followed me around. Very, very sad. All caused by piloting errors bar one. [Structural failure, Ryan replica at Coventry. A weld failure causing the wing fold upwards.] Videod several, NTSB in the States took my tape from the P51 collision at Oshkosh 2007. Been to Oshkosh six times. Some very bad flying there, by the arriving spectators etc. some of whom, I understand, only fly their aircraft a couple of times a year, and Oshkosh at Airshow times is a very very busy place for an out of practice guy to be flying in, with, occasionaly, the inevitable sad result.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

go to some of the Greek islands, such as Mykonos or Skiathos, which handle holiday jets with full loads
After a fashion. "Full load" for some mid-afternoon flights can exclude some of the baggage, which is sent home in the evening when it's cooler. (But that's take-off not landing.)

[Pace]

Pace, since you ask: from 20+ years as an airline pilot, much of that as a training captain, much of it based at Luton. No, LTN is not LHR; but if you want to try a short runway for a jet, go to some of the Greek islands, such as Mykonos or Skiathos, which handle holiday jets with full loads.

skyhifallguy: Luton is one of London's minor airports with a single runway, 08/26; the photo is not there, nor anywhere in the UK..
After an 18 hour day and posting my reply so late what a load of rubbish I posted )) On the numbers is a common phrase for getting it right ! on shorter runways and not holding off eating up a chunk of runway trying to get the smoothest landings ! The rest? I had brain fade last night )))

[kenparry]

Quote:
go to some of the Greek islands, such as Mykonos or Skiathos, which handle holiday jets with full loads
After a fashion. "Full load" for some mid-afternoon flights can exclude some of the baggage, which is sent home in the evening when it's cooler. (But that's take-off not landing.)

I never saw it done that way. There are a couple of obvious problems with that - first, disgruntled passengers; secondly, long-standing security objections to bags going on a different aircraft from their owners (which dates from long before 9/11).

I've been retired for a while, but what we did was load everything, and do a fuel stop, usually at Thessaloniki.

[A and C]

You are quite correct that the Piper arrow has an automatic gear extension system but there was a non mandatory service bullitin a few years back giving the option to remove this system.

The SB was issued after an accident were the engine failed and the pilot did not make it into a clearing due to the gear auto extending just at the wrong moment.

You can also override the auto gear extension system.

In short you can't assume just because it's a Piper Arrow the wheels will come down automaticly !

[A and C]

While you are 100% correct with all the theory the need to get the wheels on the runway and the speed breaks up becomes critical when you have a full jet aircraft and a Greek island, so the usual way of doing things ( in the -800 ) is to get just into three reds close into the runway and land flap 40 auto brake max.

It works well in the shorter places like Skiathos & Chambrey as worst thing you can do is float you must be in the vertical slot and on Vref...... No more !!

As you say no one try's to hit the numbers, if you did that at Skiathos the tail skid would snagg in the fishing nets on the boats in the harbour or the excuse for a barbed wire fence between the road and the runway.

Video for skiathos skid marks▶ 2:29
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtpZ6yujDFA
10 Dec 2006 - Uploaded by pdm767
Landing a B757 in Skiathos...watch the crowd scatter! ... the skid marks going clean off the ...

With the truly spectacular stopping power of max auto brake the -800 will stop in about half the Skiathos runway, give me 30kt headwind and a think I could make the second turn off to the ramp. the only problem being making the next take off time due to the brake cooling time limits.

The skid marks at the upwind end of the runway are from an MD82 than came within an ace of going off the end and 50ft down onto the beach, aparently the pilot did not take into account the humpbacked nature of the runway and ended up chasing the runway downhill touching down very late....... Almost too late !

[Gertrude the Wombat]

I never saw it done that way.
I have, as a passenger. The airport staff on arrival seemed to treat it as a fairly normal occurence when the flight was already a few minutes late and didn't really have time for the fuel stop.

This was however before 9/11.

[Cusco]

I've been into Skiathos a few times as SLF, once during the Greek heatwave when people were dropping like flies in Athens in temps of 40 deg.

Everytime a full load and everytime stopping just at the turning circle (though I've always turned to the left!)

Apparently they don't refuel on Skiathos and as stated above stop off on the Greek mainland on the way home for a top up.

(interestingly we've never disembarked for refuelling).

Baggage came with us...

Bloody nuisance first time it happened as it bu**ered up our arrival in UK and our lift waiting for us.

[A and C]

Get the aproach in the slot and on speed and you can get the aircraft stopped about half way along he Skiathos runway but you have to go to the end to turn the aircraft around.

Following the Boeing short field modification it was normal to get the -800 back to Gatwick with 189 pax direct, but it was far more fun to take the aircraft visually to the military base about ten min away. It's not often you get to fly an airliner for the whole flight without using the automatics.

[Ebbie 2003]

I have seen two crashes - one at Earls Colne a PA28 ran off the tunway taxiway after landing about 15 years ago and a Mooney at Bodmin that never got off the ground but ran right of the end of the runway, late 1990's.

No one hurt in either of them.

Sure that those suddent things are not so bad as the ones where one knows it's going to happen as in an engine failure.

The worst accident I ever heard about was a student in as I recall an AA5 in southern England, solo on a nav ex who had a mid air with a glider - glider ok but the AA5 gf wing tip smashed jamming the aileron counter weight. The student got 20 or so minutes speaking with ATC in a large turn before crashing, a rather nasty was to go I think - was in the 1990s. If anyone has the AAIB reference I would be interesting in reading it again.

Accidents happen all we can do is prepare ourselves properly to minimise the chances of it happening and train to minimise the consequences - for the next stage there is life insurance.

[treadigraph]

This one (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/dft_avsafety_pdf_502371.pdf) Ebbie?

[Vilters]

Kiewit-Hasselt-Belgium.

Pits coming in inverted level flight at about 100ft, pushed up into an inverted looping. There was a slight hesitation on top of the loop, then he pushed to continue the inverted loop and smashed into the ground 100 meters in front of me. Pilot died.

Beauvechain Air Force Base Belgium

SF-260 lost engine power at about 250 ft. Tried a 180° and spun in. Instructor and student died.

Beauvechain Air Force Base Belgium

F-16 landing with a tailwind. Lost control on roll-out and ended up next to the runway. Pilot walked away unhurt.

Leopodsburg Belgium

Mirage5 climbed into the vertical after a high speed low pass. Came down out of the sun in a spin. We saw the canopy departing, but the seat did not have the time to go. The A/C smashes into the ground behind some trees. Pilot died.

Moulins France (RSA fly-in)

A Mini P-47 (Continental 100) lost control due to engine torque on take off.
Left the runway to the left and tore itself into a parked RF4 motorised glider. Pilot slightly hurt his head bouncing against the canopy frame.

Beauvechain Air Force Base Belgium

SF-260 lost control during a touch and go due to engine torque. Left the runway to the left and flipped upside down. Both pilot escaped unhurt.

Kiewit -Hasselt

ULM landing, simply flipped upside down after a bounce when he landed nosewheel first. Pilot unhurt hanging in his straps.

That's some 20 years of military and PPL flying in a nutshell.

My personals?
Had an engine failure in a D-120 due to suspected carb icing at 7500 ft. Engine restarted succesfully at 2000 ft.

And had to shut down an engine on a C-150 while in the circuit; Oil press dropped to 0. (Oil pump gear failure)

Had an oil line rupture in a twin engine BAF Merlin at FL 200. Pilot landed single engine in Yeovilton-UK. (I was a passenger on this one)

[wrecker]

A Vulcan in a deep stall NE Of Boscombe Down in i think 1963/4. Went through the process of "that looks a bit odd" then rapidly followed by "sh*t" It impacted in a very small field on what was known as Chute Causeway. And then helping a crew member who had ejected after he got hung up in a tree on landing.

[Ebbie 2003]

This one (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources.cfm?file=/dft_avsafety_pdf_502371.pdf) Ebbie?

That looks like it, never read the AAIB before - there was a lot of comment in the flying press and at airfields at the time.

Ĺooks as if the post impact glider and AA5 info got mixedb together - seems that the AA5 went in very quickly after the impact.

[FBS]

There are a couple of things that can be added to what to do. The first is get hold of the emergency serivices, you can always stand them down if it turns out better than expected. Secondly log the times that things happen. This will help an investigation and thirdly, write down what happened as soon as you can while it is fresh in your memory. It is surprising how much things can change. Lastly, bear in mind that the services on the ground, and the control room they are operating with, have no local knowledge so any help you can provide to get them to the right point will be good. GPS coordinates will help.