EK pilots 3 man MLE etc

[thatwasclose]

Guys and Gals,

If you or the other pilots both do not get hours rest then the augment pilot does not count. You must write a discretion report, as a two man crew not in variation 1. When you go into discretion on a variation 1 flight the report goes straight to the authorities and it seems that the company was getting crap back. If you go into discretion under normal rules less than 2? hours it is internal. I am not sure how you start the trip legally in this manner, but remember, legally if you or the other guy has not got 3 hours its illegal to extend as per the 3 man crew. It is disrection and you must write a report. The company desperately is trying to prevent a lay over and if you just say you got 3 hours you are helping no one.
Fill out the report.

[Avid Aviator]

Two pilots (never mind the 3rd) can NOT get 3 hours rest on the MLE flight. No seat change allowed while in climb or descent. Flight time around 3:40 - do the maths. And that's not even going into the "no burnout" approved on these for the augmenter.
So normal limits (NOT Annex 1) apply. Which invariably puts you into discretion when your roster is published, up to 40 days before you operate.

That is not what discretion is for, it's for disruptions after sign on.

I was caught out the first time, I won't be doing it next time!!

[flyinthesky]

Same issue with night Chennai. Impossible for one guy to get 3 hours on one sector. It is operated as a burnout but even so, both guys cannot get 3 hours.

Discretion report submitted but operating FO was desperate not to submit. He spent ages trawling the OM-A for excuses. But report was submitted!!!

[lospilotos]

Same issue with night Chennai. Impossible for one guy to get 3 hours on one sector. It is operated as a burnout but even so, both guys cannot get 3 hours.

Discretion report submitted but operating FO was desperate not to submit. He spent ages trawling the OM-A for excuses. But report was submitted!!!

Company knows and uses the excuse "We think 3 pilots getting some rest (not counting the augmenting whom does not get any in-flight rest), is better than 2 pilots getting no rest at all"

[BobDole]

The rest does not "need" to be consecutive. It's how they will get around it. So long as there is 6 hours somehow split between the two operating pilots then it's legal. (7.7.1.2)

The only defense will be if there is less than 6 hours of "cruise" time available between both sectors. And if that's the case I'm sure they will have no issue in just slowing the sectors down to meet the requirement.

The only way the third guy will get even close to 3 hours is to be on "rest" every single second they are on duty and not in an "operating" seat.

Have no fear... If you find a loophole somewhere they will just close it with an amendment :ugh:

[lospilotos]

Well on MLE at least there is not 6 hours available as you also need to do breifings which should be completed before TOD. I would also like to draw the parallell to controlled rest where the resting pilot should not engage in any duties for 20 minutes after waking up.

Another thought, does the 3rd pilot need to be in the flight deck for takeoff and landing? OM-A says he should, if not resting. Since a First Class seat is reserved for rest, could the augmenting then be resting in the cabin during takeoff and landing?

[BobDole]

The way I handle it is to put them on rest and stick them in the back for everything unless they are actively in an operating seat. Otherwise they will not get the required 3 hours to extend the duty (assuming 60 from boarding to TOC, 90 TOD to TOC, then 30 TOD to DXB).
Unless the pairing has been specifically listed as a "burnout" per vp-ops, everyone must get the 3 hours somehow.

[Capn Rex Havoc]

BOB- I assume Male is a "Burnout policy" flight.
I can only speak for the 330, where we do TRV 3 pilot, and there is a notam issued stating that it is to be burnout. I bought the issue of not getting the rest required due to changing seats etc, to manager regulatory affairs. His response was that on paper it is legal, and has been accepted by GCAA.

I guess it like our sign on is on paper 1 hour before push back and... well we all know how that goes.

[FuelFlow]

Where does it state no seat change in climb and descend?
Since when do briefings need to be done before TOD?

Just curious!

[Eau de Boeing]

Is there an actual part of the manual that says these things?
I was trying to find the section that states that crew cannot go on rest until 10,000ft and can only come up with the generalised section about critical phases of flight.

[what_goes_up]

OM-A 5.2.15.2 says, the captain can only be relieved by an ATPL holder above FL200 or below FL200 by another commander.

[FuelFlow]

That is 100% correct, but still in the climb or descent!
OM A 8.3.10.1 gives you the answer for the F/O

[thatwasclose]

Boeing CRC cannot be entered below 25,000

[Mach_Krit]

what goes up

yeah I deleted my post after seeing that. But it´s such a ballache should/shall..

thanks for the reference =)

[what_goes_up]

Agree... And not saying it makes sense... :D :D

[natops]

During a ccp a few months ago sp said that the mle 3 man operation has nothing to do with extending duty times.

Its only in place to get the operating flightcrew doing an approach slightly less tired. So not necessary to do a 3 hrs rest for the operating crew.

What ever you think of it ofcourse.....

N.:ok:

[BANANASBANANAS]

I have been spared the MLE so far but it strikes me that the Rostering solution is simply to roster crew who have had 30+ hours rest after a BKK layover or similar so that they are unacclimatised and have a longer allowable FDP.

Happy to be corrected if I am wrong.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Bananas careful you'll get a job in crew planning

[Plane_Sailing]

As stated earlier, rest does not need to be consecutive. So with a 1 hour 30 min turnaround, 20 mins could be taken on the ground in Male if necessary. It does not have to be sleep to count. Good pilots are problem solvers not problem makers.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Afraid not PS. You cant take 'in flight rest' on the ground. It becomes an attempt at Split duty - for which rest in the aeroplane is allowed. However,

Rest on the ground must be at least 3 hours consecutive, (90 minute turnround)

No pax on board (boarding commences STD-45)

Must be control of environment to allow for rest. (Cleaners, caterers, cabin crew checks etc, lights all on, noisy environment etc etc)

So I disagree that your 'solution' is in compliance with OMA and I will not be using it.

[donpizmeov]

Pilots are not there to create solutions for poor rostering practices.

[falconeasydriver]

Beat me too it Bananas. I believe the heading is something like "Extension of Flying Duty Period by In-flight Relief" or words to that effect, in which case on the ground don't count.

[thatwasclose]

Natops,
Are you operating at EK? a 2 man crew cannot legally do the flight, unless variation 1. Even in variation 1 there where large amount of flights that went into discretion . A variation flight that goes into discretion must be reported to the authorities. Hence we no longer do it as a variation flight. This is not an attempt to make us less tired, rather an attempt to prevent a layover.

[Twiglet1]

An interesting discussion for an outsider beginning to dabble with FRMS readying for EASA FTL in Europe.
1. What's the max FDP for the MLE flights (there are two I believe) In the UK it's 10.15hrs
2. If under variation 1 what is the increase 1 hr?
3. What is the planned FDP
4. Do EK have napping policy for 2 crew?
5. If the flight augmented is there are guidance on in flight relief e.g. if one has to turn up rested for the FDP then an immediate nap may be of no use?
6. Any sleep trail / motion watches being undertaken or just bio mathematical modelling (if so any idea which one)
7. It would make sense for P1/2 to split the return sector to nap prior to landing rather than trying to augment the 3hrs?
8.It must be up there in terms of fatiguing flights, do you undertake any sleepiness scoring at top of drop etc as part of the FRMS e.g. KSS scale

If the questions are too probing please pm me, I have an honest interest in FRMS and any honest data/replies is appreciated

[natops]

@thatwasclose

What I wrote is what SP told us during CCP a few months back...

[Am NOT Sure]

Plane_Sailing I hope you spoke in jest when you suggested the ground rest

:ugh:

[form717]

Referring to a recent MAA turnaround (not planned as a variation flight) included the usual CONOTAM to indicate that it was a burnout flight. Given cruise time less than six hours etc, there is no extension of duty time beyond the "normal" two-crew duty times right? So if it's not a variation flight and can be done within two-crew duty limits then the augmenting pilot has exactly the same duty time as the other two poor blokes, so whether it's a burnout flight or not is irrelevant i.e. everyone will "burnout" at the same moment. (A rare and spectacular sight for sure!)

Then, I read in this weeks Flight Safety digest that the Flight Safety Department believes these flights are operating as "variation flights" and are safe for two crew. Huh?!?!

[Modesh]

Ladies and Gents,

There is an article in Decembers Fleet Facts 2014 on how these flights are to be operated.

There is also an article in Septembers Fleet Facts 2014 on how to operate the three crew to Asia when the third guy is not needed for FTL.

Unfortunately the first article is bound to cause more questions than answers.

M

[thatwasclose]

natops,

Firstly i apologise if my reply was a bit curt. I re read it and it could have come across as such. So sorry for that.
Just because SP says something does not make it so. The law is the law. The ASR reports from the last batch had explanations on the flights, saying they under variation 1 flights. They are not. I asked. I got a reply. I encourage everyone to actually ask. Don't just go along with well, he said she said so thats the way it is. There are rules, and laws, and consequences for not obeying them if something goes wrong. Call the FDM and ask if this is a variation 1 flight before you go. If we don't stand up for ourselves, no one will. And we are not being jerks, we are just trying to follow the law.

[natops]

no probs

N.:ok:

[Calmcavok]

Operated it 3 times now augmented. Each time a discretion report was filed. The regulations are pretty clear.

[thatwasclose]

did you go into discreation under variation 1 or a normal flight?

[Mach_Krit]

The MLE is planned for a 11:15 FDP. If this trip was Planned under variation 1 the max FDP would be 10:45 (10:15 MAX FDP plus 30 min VAR 1). So the way it is planned, it is not legally do-able. The company basically expects you to go into discretion at planning stage. What am I missing?

[Modesh]

Ladies and Gents,

There is an article in Decembers Fleet Facts 2014 on how these (MLE/MAA/TRV) flights are to be operated. It's written by the Manager Regulatory Affairs.

1. It is not a variation
2. Operating crew must get three hours.

There is also an article in Septembers Fleet Facts 2014 on how to operate the three crew to Asia when the third guy is not needed for FTL.

Unfortunately the first article is bound to cause more questions than answers.

Eg. Are they planning you into discretion if due to, on the day flight times operating crew can't get three hours each?

M

[glofish]

Read the Flight Safety Weekly, it takes clearly care of all questions!

(limits are as per two man ops variation1, discretion has to be reported)

[Kapitanleutnant]

Are we saying that…. before we even set foot on the airplane outbound from DXB, we are going into Discretion???

Kap

[glofish]

No, normally not. The MLE, TRV and MAA block times allow flights within variation1. It's when delays set in that discretion is needed.

As i see it the company sends a third pilot to sort of mitigate our reluctance to "foresee" the normal delays and go more easily. They wanted us to go anyway and see down the road, after the quick turn around, if we continued home or stopped in MCT or KHI without discretion. Knowing about the mood on line, they added a third pilot to have us go into discretion a little more easily.

I personally think this is better than before, legal squabble set aside, because they would never allow a night stop and frankly, i would not very much appreciate a short one in these places. So i see this as a viable solution.

[Kapitanleutnant]

Thanks Glo…

Good explanation and points.

K

[Modesh]

Hi Glowy,

Not sure why the Manager Regulatory Affairs has put in writing that these flights are not variations then?
After all he is the guy that brought this in and is responsible for it.

The trip descriptions don't show them as variations either!

Have a read of the fleet facts article. Dec 2014

Seems safety (ASR's) have not been informed on how these flights are rostered.

I agree with you on how it should be operated I.e as variation with the extra guy as a help with rest but not to extend FDP.

Thoughts?

M

[paokara]

Are you guys getting paid if you volunteer extend your duty pass 12 hrs?

We get 2.5 for 30 minutes extension and 5 hrs pay for 31 minutes or more extension.....

Example : a 3 day Europe trip if it's late 3 hrs or more will pay an additional 5 hrs...... From 16 hrs blocked to 21 pay

[thatwasclose]

Glofish,
you are wrong. Those flights are not, I repeat not variation 1 flights. If it was then it would show on your roster. It does not. I went to the third floor to regulatory affairs, and asked. Repeat. Not variation 1. Please go ask .

[glofish]

Well, the answer on the FSW is the following:

(i know we should not publish internas. But this is discussed ad infinitum and basically it's a procedure and no names are involved. To clarify what is out there, and this is a matter of safety, i only copy the answer)

"The flight can be operated within a variation of the flight time limitation using a two man crew only. The third crew member on these night turn-around operations have been added after consideration by the XXX, to improve operating crew member alertness through in-flight relief. They have not been added to extend the flight time limitations and if captain’s discretion to extend the flight duty period for 2 man crew has been used, it must be reported."

The way i interpret it, is that the flights "can" be operated with a variation.

[thatwasclose]

They can be, but they are not. And if they are not is this legal? The author of this response is giving a different response from regulatory affairs. The fleet facts december says a different thing.

I know that we let things slide if its a hassle. The company does no favours for us
anymore. We are doing ourselves no favours here as professional pilots to let the company make us operate under such hazy circumstances. Clarity is needed. I for one think the flights are much better this way, but I i still want to make sure that I am operating in a legal manner. Do we not all want that?

[tom330]

I don't get why they made TRV 3 pilots. I had to AUG that flight twice being 520... terrible.

[Yahooza]

These flights are not operated to Variation 1. case in point the rest required before the variation (Nights rest) which is definitely not the case on the 330 fleet to TRV. Planned duty 11 hours. Max duty 10 hrs 15 min. (extension from variation 1 is only 30 min). The only way to extend the duty is with augmentation 1hr if the operating pilots receive 3 hrs rest (not consecutive) which means a change in seats during climb and descent ( above FL 200) doable on paper but not in reality.
Discretion is a quagmire! can you exercise it if you are planned to exceed duty?. I would think not.