Opinions on Falcon 2000 appreciated

[leonard17F]

Dear fellow PPruners,

I would be very happy to hear your stance on the F2000, in particular on the most recent versions (LXS, LX, etc…).

I know by experience that they are sweet airplanes to fly, but in general what are their strengths and weaknesses (in performance, reliability of systems, recurring issues and complaints) and what would you improve if you could, etc...?

Thanks a lot as always,

Leo

[EatMyShorts!]

+ large and comfortable cabin
+ nice flight deck (EASy)
+ performance
+ most defects that I had were of minor nature and hardly ever grounded the bird (2000EX EASy)

- DFS Paris Le Bourget maintenance can be below standard, but there are other excellent MX-providers around Europe (e.g. in Amsterdam)
- water system breaks quite often
- APUs have a weakness in their seals and when they break release oil-fumes into the bleed air system. APUs require some attention on this type, especially if you run them often and for many hours

[His dudeness]

Water system breaks quite often - can you elaborate a bit further ?

The APU - is it a Honeywell ?

We would take 'her' into quite a small field - apart from the books numbers, in the real world, how do you rate brakes etc ? We just start to evaluate what we gonna buy....or if we keep the Sovereign..

Have you any experience with JetAviation Basle and/or Aerodienst Nürnberg ?

[CL300]

The brakes are not as good as at the ones on the Challenger 300, but they are carbon as well, if you step on them they brake, without "duck walk", it performs as the book says, if you fly it like the book says..
Autobrake option is on/off and operate at mains touchdown..expect some deceleration

APU honeywell indeed

The water reservoir is located at the very back of the plane , and the feeder lines are made in a rigid plastic material, therefore in winter you need to drain the whole system and it is a bit of a pain since it needs bleed air..now try to empty the water tank on the apron in GVA....

If you do not do it if will freeze and break hence leaks.... but again this is in the ground service manual, so it should not be an issue. NJE was so smart that they had a "special procedure" to solve the issue, therefore it keeps on breaking LoL

The LXS is a nice bird, by the time you will get one, you might be able to use all the goodies on it.

The 2000 EX / LX / LXS are fine birds, no big worries, but it is Dassault, and something to remember , with Dassault, it seems that you do not own the plane, barely have the right to fly it, but once you are contaminated , difficult to switch back... :ok:

[jetopa]

EatMyShorts! and CL300 are right: the water system is a weak spot. But there is a cheap way to prevent damage to it and if needed, I can share a procedure with you which is quite commonly applied in countries with rather harsh winters... ;)

The brakes are excellent. Don't know the brakes of the Challenger, but they are really good.

Short field performance has always been a strong suit of the F2000 series and with the arrival of the inboard slats with the S and LXS model, it's even more phenomenal.

I've never had any problem with the APU.

For maintenance, I do agree with what EatMyShorts! wrote. It is my impression that you get a more customer friendly treatment when you avoid the big service centers. For recommendations I prefer sending you a PM.

Don't buy the class II EFB standard issue - they are useless. Forward lav is the thing to have on longer flights and the foldable jump seat (= folds into into the cockpit floor) frees some valuable real estate in the galley. EASy II + adresses some irritations of the previous version.

They are reliable birds with very few problems and great operational flexibility.

Good luck and enjoy!

[His dudeness]

Thanks guys.

CL300, not sure if I get your drift here:

with Dassault, it seems that you do not own the plane, barely have the right to fly it

When it comes to spares and parts, how good is the Dassault network ? We had some issues with the Sovereign, a single airplane ops such as ours needs a very good support. Main issue we have is Honeywell parts (Avionics), thus would we have to expect the same 'non-service' ?

[CL300]

If going to a Dassault center like in Paris; you need to leave one of your engineer on site in order to watch them, especially if you are not on an all-inclusive contract. I have not been using DFS for a while ( as maintenance station), but if they had convinced themselves about something ( obviously incorrect), you will not stop them in burning manpower in order to prove themselves correct, they are a bit ( sic) stubborn. Then comes the bill.... This is why, you will save money by having your own mechanic on site, that will stop them on doing idiotic things... and amendments to work orders to be signed BEFORE not after the job was done...:suspect::suspect::suspect::suspect:

All in all, having flown falcons for years ( all models) they are getting more and more reliable, even if the 50EX/900EX are still the best aircrafts to take out in the middle of nowhere for days.

As far as the brakes are concerned, of course they are very good brakes and had no issues with them, just the deceleration on the CL300 is VERY efficient, and i was surprised with it when I test flew the plane before its certification, but this is around 15 years ago ( ****...15 years..) the CL300 is a Falcon 50EX on two engines. But with Nietjets order, i would stay out of this airframe for a while. The 2000 will be 30% more expensive to run, but hey ! You have a Dassault !!

[Tray Surfer]

I know that having the fold out "from the floor" jump seat frees up room in the galley and flight deck… But… It is crap. I hate them.

I have flown on a couple of Falcons, one of which has that type of jump seat, and it is nothing but a pain in the behind, and not only for me, but for the flight crew too. Constantly having to move stuff around to get it out of the floor, difficult to get in and out of, uncomfortable (all be it, not for prolonged use…), if you are going to do trips with a full time FA or regular freelance, the permanent sideways seat behind the right hand seat is much better. Can till be used for storage if no FA onboard as it has the fold down hanging rail and the likes…

Also means the FA has somewhere to sit during flight if the clients or principal wants the cabin closed off and to sleep… I can tell you, it is no fun sitting on a ATLAS galley box for several hours… In fact, I can liken that to the comfort level of the fold out jump seat…! :O

[con-pilot]

I know that having the fold out "from the floor" jump seat frees up room in the galley and flight deck… But… It is crap. I hate them.


I agree 100%, damn thing is basically useless and a major PIA to use.

[Above The Clouds]

As others have said, the potable water system is a weak point, only because crew don't take enough care ensuring the system is fully drained in freezing conditions.

The APU is the next weak point; the main turbine shaft is too long for just two bearings so will flex and eventually destroy the oil seals causing fumes in to the bleed air system, its a well known PIA for Dassault on average you get around 1000 hours before APU replacement is required.

The only other issue for me is the missing third engine :E otherwise once you get used to the Dassualt product you won't look back :ok:

[leonard17F]

Dear all,

Thanks a lot for your very valuable inputs.

I was also told that the F2000 is a bit sensitive reg. corrosion, in particular of the Slats….

And that the brakes may freeze….

Would you concur ?

Leo.

[CL300]

the late 2000 are ok for corrosion, old 20 with solded airframes and DLE were indeed sensitive, again the ground service manual is very well documented on the matter of the after effect of de-icing fluid.

As far as brake freeze is concerned, they are carbon brakes, therefore they hate water, there is an optional brake heating system, valuable if you operate in cold and unfriendly places all the time, otherwise this device can be a bit of a PIA.

It is a BBW as well, so there is a procedure before landing and after take off to address the situation, but most malfunctions on the gear are coming from proximity switches not being properly adjusted for temperature ( these are magnetic fields, and have to be rigged according to an operating temperature)

[EatMyShorts!]

I have been flying this bird since 2007 now and I really like it!

Frozen brakes: I never had this, although I have been Moscow in snow storms etc.. there is a procedure for taxiing and taking off in snow, slush and standing water (with cold temperatures). You just heat up the brakes before takeoff by applying them a couple of times. There is a temperature sensor that will show you if they are still below 0 degrees or if they are okay.


APU oil leaks: in my opinion the main problem is the angle in which the APU has been installed. Leaking oil runs back to the core where the bleed air valve is and it can get sucked in then. You normally notice this at the end of a long descent when you advance the thrust again. "Dirty socks" smell...


Water system: I always stick to the draining procedure and it still breaks every now and then. The last few times the t-handle (and the valve that it moves) were broken. The good thing is: in such a case you can still refill the system from inside, there is a gravity filling system.


Landing performance: in my opinion it is very good. You just need to stick to the limits, fly the speed and don't flare too much - the brakes and reverse are efficient. In Cannes I can easily bring it to a smooth stop half-way down the runway, although CL300 hates me for it :E


If I had the money and had to choose, I'd go for a Falcon!

[CL300]

it to a smooth stop half-way down the runway, although CL300 hates me for it

I do not care anymore..... You can do whatever you wish i believe, nobody is looking anyway, and AFAIK nothing was written in the law...
so APU on , full reverses, middle taxiway.. Netjets has no more F7X plans, and Dassault came with a variable MTOM, so....

Next year the airport will go private, as a consequence one might be able to land a 747 there...
:ok:

everybody with money goes for Falcon, this is why Netjets goes for Bombardier LoL ( a bit of bashing ;-) )

[Sop_Monkey]

CL300.

Having your own mechanic to watch over maintenance is essential for all aircraft at any maintenance outfit.

To quote an example, we used get our maintenance done at an outfit in Miami. Our boss had his own mechanic on site alright, during the last heavy check. However he was so stupid he messed his pay around. As the maintenance outfit were a bunch of crooks (who isn't in aviation?) they "recruited him" and bestowed lavish gifts etc., upon him. The boss? Well he had to sell the aircraft to foot the bill.

[CL300]

I am sure that there is countless experiences from all corners of the planet regarding this type of behavior :-)
DFS , ( and Dassault in general) have a very paternalistic vision of their planes, and the way it shall be done.
Mechanics, Gate-keepers, Bell-men, Valet-parking...do not mess with them.. :-)

[His dudeness]

So, reading between the lines, the F2000 is really expensive to operate ? Did I understand that correctly ?

I´d really like to keep my job and an overly expensive airplane could ruin that plan... I´d rather fly my old Sovereign a tad longer than have the F2000 on the ticket and join the line for food stamps...

Regarding the brakes, how much of a problem are brakes when it comes to energy limits for quick turn arounds ? We have a milk run were we just pick up guys and some times achieve ground times of less than 10 minutes (long runway there, 2500 mtr, so with the Sovereign one barely touches the brakes there)

[EatMyShorts!]

Brake energy limits are usually not a big problem. The rule is: if the brake temperature indication is < 160 deg C before takeoff you don't even need to hit the books. On a long runway you simply use idle reverse and that will slow down the plane quite a bit.

As I am not familiar with the cost-side (maintenance) of the aircraft I cannot tell you about it, sorry. I can tell you, though, that the F2000EX EASy is quite economic: FL400 M0.83 costs you about 1800lbs of fuel per hour, which is really good for this category of aircraft. My record flying-time is exactly 9 hours with LRC thrust. At full steam you can probably fly it for about 7 hours.

[jetopa]

Brakes never failed on me and their performance is phenomenal. Brake energy limit is only a problem if you're planning on performing a sequence of aborts in EGKB.

All new airplanes come with brake heating, to my knowledge.

The fuel figures are correct and the airplane is very economical to operate. 'Slowing down' to between mach .80 to .81 (= the speed at which the F2000's wing seems to work most efficiently) even makes the fuel flow even more sexy.

Maintenance is not cheap, but rarely something breaks. There are gremlins in the EASy avionics which are usually cured by a reset. But it is not a regular occurrence. If you stick to a fixed routine when starting up the system, then you should not have many of them.

The 'old' Collins boxes of the Classics never had any of this... :ok:

There is a a workable procedure for preventing the potable water system to freeze, if you don't have a hangar.

@ His Dudeness: don't be. Your owner will love it's economy, speed, baggage compartment and silence. Send me a pm if you have doubts.

[Son of a Beech]

You can also just buy a Falcon 2000 classic for 7 million, put in a brand new proline 21 cockpit including ADS-B, CPDLC, WAAS/LPV, JEPPVIEW, ETC for 1 million and put on some winglets for 600.000 and for 8.6 million you have the same plane minus the headache an Easy cockpit will give you for about 25% of the price

http://www.duncanaviation.aero/images/gbp/solutions/Rockwell-Collins-Pro-Line-21-IDS_Falcon-2000.jpg

SOAB

[CL300]

Compare to your sovereign it will be around 30% more expensive. Especially out of warranty. But up to a C check ( 6 years) it is quite predictable. If the aircraft is under the FalconCare program (or similar) this eases the hurdles, as usual, but there is a premium to it.
As far as the Easy cockpit is concerned, especially Easy2 full package, it is really nice, Easy 1 was lacking a lot of stuff.
Speed; the supercritical point of drag is at .76 on this falcon wing up to .80 you find yourself still on the "flat" portion of the cuve, pushing a mach especially at high weight is a huge issue for range and fuel burn.
The bird meets the books figures, if flown like the book says.
Brake energy limit is like the CG.. you need to work at it to exceed it or to have some kind of penalty. ( pilot technique is unfortunately not taken into account as far as the regulations are concerned) only the charts rules, but if you operate mainly in Europe it should not be an issue ( even Samedan at 35°C)
DO NOT get into a classic..... but if looking for a used Easy..take one WITHOUT winglets...:ok:

[Son of a Beech]

@CL300

Why are you beating down on my F2000. I have been flying mine for 5 years now and still loving it. When we added the winglets we got the range up with another 200 Nm and are now climbing as never before. The proline 21 we are getting takes care of all the modern NAV requirement and for the pax it looks exactly the same.

The trick is to buy one with a fresh C check done by a good maintenance facility.

@ CL300 Give me some good reasons!! And not just say it doesn't have an Easy cockpit, cause neither does your CL300. In fact it has the same proline 21 as installed on the retrofit falcon.

[CL300]

5 years ago , i would have said : go for it ! 2000 Classic , winglets proline 21, the whole package, yes !

Today not quite, the economics have changed , the Classic starts to age, and you will find an Easy for that price, with better engine performance, some new systems, a taste of "tomorrow"...

I am sure that your classic works fine, and to be honest i flew falcon 20 retrofitted which are flying like a charm at 40+ years old ( the airframe).

So except for budget ( acquisition) concerns, i would not buy a Classic today.

( as far as the CL30 is concerned, i am not flying it :-) )


ho , yes winglets.... hmmmm... keep them off the plane, hangar, towing, lens cost...are the books reflecting the ground performance now ?

But again, this is my one and me only opinion; everyone has to make a decision otherwise everyone would go for a B747-800.... or an ultralight... :):)

[Booglebox]

SOAB: still missing an EICAS/ECAM though - right? And does it apply to the "jurassic" with the CFE738s?
Very cool though. I always like to see these schemes to revive old bizjets e.g. Stallion C501, Nextant Hawker 400 etc.
Look forward to ~2025 when somebody comes out with a scheme to put GE Passports on a classic GLEX :8

[His dudeness]

We would need the inner slats, T/O at homebase is the most critical performance number we usually have (3520 or 3675ft of TODA, tricky first segment), so that should rule out the classics... (we have a real classic based, they say they usually can go 500-800nm outta there)
Our Sov with 4 Pax gives us something about 1500-1700nm, Dassault says the LXS does that as well. Less performance out of the homebase would be a show stopper... OTOH the 900 would go further...

Oh well, my dreams...

Thanks everyone.

[CL300]

one last piece of comment... If buying new, look closely at the options weight, the 'typical aircraft' from Dassault will be somewhat 1200 Lbs lighter than yours..

[deefer dog]

Yes indeed, good point CL300. The Equipped Empty Weight used by Dassault when specifying performance is a figure so far removed from reality that it is misleading. Accordingly a realistically equipped aircraft will never fly the quoted ranges, even if ISA, unrestricted climb and descent conditions exist.

Buyer of a new aircraft would also be wise to ask where electrical components used for customer selected options are going to be fitted to the aircraft. If in the baggage bay, for example, they will diminish available baggage volume and weight that may be carried, and more importantly effect on one's starting CofG.

Of course this is not only a peculiarity of Dassault, but considering the amount of options available nowadays one should look closely at the not so obvious implications of adding everything possible to any aircraft.

[ericthepilot]

"T/O at homebase is the most critical performance number"

Maybe the owner's cheapest investment is 1000 feet of extra dirt ?

[733driver]

Unfortunately not an option at that particular airport

[His dudeness]

No idea if it is cheaper to move a 6 lane road and/or another road plus buildings.

The airport is "grown in" - used to be in the green fields and is now surrounded by the city...

We are trying to have another airport build (an old US Base would readily be available, 2000mtrs runway with 2 ILSes without overflying habitated areas) but in todays climate in Germany I reckon the reappearance of Christ is more likely to happen before that...and even if we´d build an airport, one never knows when thats going to open... :ugh:

[EatMyShorts!]

FWIW: the BOM of our EASys is around 25,000 lbs and we do not have a lot of options installed...

[CL300]

FWIW: the BOM of our EASys is around 25,000 lbs and we do not have a lot of options installed...


LoL, but it is not really representative is it ? not every operator carries what you guys carry in the back ( or up front) ....even though the weight is more typical of an Easy. The LXS have a GW increase as well.

[EatMyShorts!]

We have less and less stuff on board, actually. We just kicked out our Jepp charts = -50 kgs.

[CL300]

Finally, this is good news for you... not that the updates would take time, but it frees a LOT of space back there for sure !
Less all the inflatable stuff, and you will be fine :-)

[EatMyShorts!]

No way! The inflatable sex toys stay on board....

[His dudeness]

Hello Guys,

the thing got a bit more momentum at my place, would somebody be able (apart from EMS - thanks btw...) to let me know a BOM for the 2000S and 2000LXS ?

Would be great if I´d get theses plus what options are installed...

I would highly appreciate any info on them or maybe contact data of people operating these 2...

Although I don´t think we will go for the 900LX (price), I would like to get some info about them too - that would be the really ideal airplane from our homebase... I think.

[CL300]

there is not a lot of difference between the easy family , they are in the same ballpark; satcom options are making the difference in weight actually ( weird is it not ?) A friend of mine is flying a 2000S one of the first delivered, and no wonder why they do not sell much of them, in favor of the LXS. The 900 Exy is in all aspect a much more versatile aircraft, especially from short runways, and depending on destinations the ability to start engines without APU is a real advantage.

To me, the 2000 was and is the Phenom 100 of Dassault, nice but wrong design decision ( even they did not offer other choice to customers); so today, too much compromises on this airframe, good for USA, as usual...

[His dudeness]

Thanks.

too much compromises on this airframe

Can you tell me more ?

depending on destinations the ability to start engines without APU is a real advantage.

Never heard about that one, thoughT they all just have air starters ?

BTW, were would one train ? The FSI center in LBG always struck me as filthy and not too good (did a C550 there many years ago) and to go to the States - as nice as it is to be there - I`d like to avoid for the hassle with the TSA sh@t).

Yours

h_d

[His dudeness]

Thanks, brain fart on my side...OTOH when the Starter breaks, you`re grounded as well (although 900 can ferry 2 Engine, correct ?)

[CL300]

yep can ferry two engines..
The 2000 has less performance than the 900 though it is a "newer" design. The total length of the aircraft is the same but the cabin is smaller :-) Now the wing of the LXS is finally ( nearly) the same as the one of the 900, but still behind ( just because V1=VR on the Three engines )
All the test bed of honeywell are going first on the 900 then the 2000.. Mind you Easy 3 will make sense only on the F5X. But all in all , talking Easy, the 900 has the maximum package working and certified.

My choice, all things being considered would be a 900EX classic second hand, cheap to buy, cheap to run, will get you anywhere. But i have to say, with hundreds of hours on Easy, the package is nice, as long as you know your way around, and the logic applied.

[67cooper]

That's not true. (citation needed)

[Mike Echo]

I can't remember all the flight details but I think (!) with one engine inoperative you are restricted to a crew ferry flight only, No Pax. At one point you had to have had the training but things may have changed since I was last involved.

A "Failed Engine Ferry Kit" may be needed, probably at vast expense, to prevent engine rotation depending on the possible cause of the failure i.e. if the failure affected the mechanical condition. So the fan has to be locked and the HP stage by removing the Start/Gen.

It really isn't that simple if done by the book, but I have seen it done not by the book!:=

The AFM limitations were
VFR
Dry Runway
Antiskid must be operative
Icing Conditions not permitted
Flight over densely populated areas on T/O and Approach not permitted

Crosswind limitation depending on 1 or 3 engine inoperative

Training to be approved by the relevant Authority

I don't remember Dassault permission being required.

Depending on the failure location it was usually easier just to bring someone in!!!

M.E.

[jetopa]

You can do initials for the F900 EASy series in Dubai and Burgess Hill (both CAE). I would recommend the latter.

FSI for Falcons only exists in LBG and they are not as bad as they used to be. Quite contrary.

[Yogibaboo]

the thing got a bit more momentum at my place, would somebody be able (apart from EMS - thanks btw...) to let me know a BOM for the 2000S and 2000LXS ?

Would be great if I´d get theses plus what options are installed...

I would highly appreciate any info on them or maybe contact data of people operating these 2...

Our pretty well equipped F2000S BOM is 25001 lbs. We are operating from 3790 ft long runway with no problems with whole continental Europe within range even in a hot summer days. No AOC of course.

Yogi

[His dudeness]

they are not as bad as they used to be. Quite contrary

Was there in 98 and 99 and I think 01. On the Citation course/refresher and that was awful. Good if they have gotten better !

@all: thanks a lot. Any info appreciated so don´t stop....

h_d

[Yogibaboo]

BTW, were would one train ? The FSI center in LBG always struck me as filthy and not too good (did a C550 there many years ago) and to go to the States - as nice as it is to be there - I`d like to avoid for the hassle with the TSA sh@t).


I have done my F2000 Initial at FSI TEB. Really nice expierence, no problems at all. Don't worry about TSA. A lot has changed. FSI is taking care of all TSA stuff. It took maybe a week to get approval (of course when you have account already set and fingerprints collected).

One of my pilots have done initial at CAE Burgess Hill. No problems as well, but FSI iPad app for training materials makes things a lot easier.

Yogi

[TheWrongTrousers]

Trained in FSI Paris last year on a Falcon recurrent. Was impressed with the quality of instruction. Back to FSI standards without doubt.

Wallace

[EatMyShorts!]

I have been training at FSI Paris regularly for the last 6 years and they have become much better, yes. Except for one individual, all the instructors are really good. I did my 2000EASy-initial in Teterboro in 2007 and the instructors were average, with two exceptions (who were much better!). Apparently FSI Teterboro has gotten its act together and have improved, I heard. Haven't been there since 2008 oder 2009.