Difficulty of ATPL exams

[tommowg]

Greetings all aviators,

I have a question regarding the difficulty of ATPL ground school exams.
I am currently studying a degree in physics at university, and intend to commence ATPL integrated training after I graduate, and I was wondering how does the content of ground school exams compare to the workload at graduate level?
I would be pleased to hear from anyone that has had experience in either uni/ground school, and how the difficulties compare. Personally, looking at the subjects I think I would be competent at the maths/physics elements, but I am wondering how difficult the other subject areas such as meteorology or IFR comms for example.

Apologies if this question has already been posted, please redirect me if it has!

[paco]

They are not difficult per se, just a lot to stuff into your head.

Not much different from somewhere between O and A level (that shows you how old I am!) :)

[Uplinker]

I did an integrated ATPL, and worked from 0600 to 1800 weekdays, for about 18 months on and off - but that included the commute between Oxford and Aylesbury every weekday. Then I did 2-4 hours work or revision at home most weekday evenings. My overall exam average was over 90%, so I might have overdone it a bit.....

As paco says, the exams are not difficult as such, there's just so much of it to cram and then reproduce, and so many different subjects.

By the way, I would save your money, and NOT get into aviation. It is a mug's game these days, honestly. As well as working on zero hours contracts etc and terrible terms and conditions, you will basically have to decide between getting an aviation job (if you're extremely lucky), or buying a house. I don't want to sound cynical, but you have been warned. You are looking at the wrong end of about £120k.

[RichardH]

Assuming you pass your physics degree then the ATPLs will be easier academic wise. Met and Gen Nav seem to cause the biggest amount of trouble but the comms exams are little short of a joke. Your degree will certainly be of benefit in certain areas. As Phil says lies somewhere between old O & A levels (not GCSE).

Over many years I have taught several hundred graduate level students on ATPL integrated courses. The biggest problems they tend to face is the volume of material (some highly questionable as to its relevance) in the amount of time (7-8 months) and of turning up on time in uniform everyday!.

So it's full on day time ground school and most students will be doing another 3 hours per night and work at weekends, though I would advise taking a least a day off. You'll have to accept the 'system' whatever your thoughts might be about it and just crack on with your goal and put your social life on hold. If you do this then all passed in 8 months then on to the fun bit. Ignore this advise then you'll be still doing ground school in 12 months with failed exams, re-sits & possible re-course or termination (though this is vary rare).

Uplinker has a valid point. Some students do very well (many now captains after 7-8 years) while others struggle or find nothing doing, if you can get accepted on a scheme this would really improve your chances - note NO GUARANTEES in this business despite what the sales people will spin you.

[tommowg]

Thanks for all the replies!

I think the general consensus is that if I get my head down then there shouldn't be too much problem with the exams. If the volume of the content is the main obstacle in this, then I'll bear that in mind when starting groundschool.

Uplinker, I appreciate the warning regarding the training cost, but thats the risk most of us are having to take nowadays. I don't mind being a bit late on the property ladder if it means landing my dream job!

Richard, I suppose the biggest difference from university is turning up in an actual smart uniform! I will be applying for all of the part-sponsored schemes (BA, easyJet, etc.) next year when I graduate, so if I could get accepted onto one of those that would be very ideal!

I appreciate all the advice and useful info :)

[helelizwil]

Hi tommowg,

I am currently half way through my ATPLs (8 down) and would have to say that I haven't had too much difficulty with any one thing in particular. As everyone else says, its the volume that really overwhelms you. If you are used to knuckling down with university work/dissertation then you should be quite capable of managing it though ; )

[JamesDoolittle]

Hi tommowg,

I am currently half way through my ATPLs (8 down) and would have to say that I haven't had too much difficulty with any one thing in particular. As everyone else says, its the volume that really overwhelms you. If you are used to knuckling down with university work/dissertation then you should be quite capable of managing it though ; )


Exactly this!

You'll be fine with the content, it's just the volume that can cause a little stress. Nothing is a specialty, it's just all very broad.

[BittenEdges]

Hey tommowg (http://www.pprune.org/members/341424-tommowg),

I finished full time education 8 years prior to starting my ATPLs and I didn't find the material too difficult, broken record time but it is very much the quantity of information you need to absorb here rather than overly difficult concepts.

The thing I found hardest was to get back into the intense study mindset, and as you will find having just finished a degree it shouldn't be too tough for you. My coursemates who had just finished Uni seemed to be able to hit the ground running but it took a valuable 3 weeks or so for my cogs to get up to speed (especially as we started with POF!)

If you're used to studying from 8am to 9pm on weekdays and at least 4 hours per day at a weekend then you should be grand, that was my regime and I managed mid 90's % average. Hope that helps! :8

[TheSkiingPilot]

ATPL theory is not too difficult, not as much as some people say it is. If you are doing the Integrated course, it'll be quicker than the Modular. When starting subjects like Human Performance and Air Law, there is not much to them at all...in fact it's nothing but a memory game. But when you hit General Navigation and Meteorology, they can take a few days to settle in to and get focused on what's happening. What ever you do, do not panic. You will ALWAYS get your head around the topics, especially with a degree in Physics!

I'm just coming up to finishing my second of three ATPL Theory modules, all the tough subjects in this one �� But certainly doable! Can't wait to start flying :D

[BWSBoy6]

Are the mocks, for example at FTE Jerez, harder than the actual EASAs? Been getting god results in them but want to be sure they are a good indicator.

[paco]

Mock exams are supposed to be an indicator to the school that you are ready for the real ones, so they should be harder.

[Transsonic2000]

Are the mocks, for example at FTE Jerez, harder than the actual EASAs? Been getting god results in them but want to be sure they are a good indicator. As mentioned above, the mock exams are more difficult than the real exams, since the school wants to make sure that you are really ready before they sign you off for the real exams. I can confirm this since I'm currently in the final stages of preparation for the ATP exams.

Regarding the difficulty level of the exams, from an academic standpoint and as previously mentioned, it's not that difficult and one certainly don't need a degree to get your head around the stuff! What's rather more of a challenge is the sheer volume of all the subjects, it's overwhelming! My advise would be to get an overview and brake it into small pieces, work mainly with the Question Bank, make your notes accordingly (for later review -very important) and at the final stages focus on your weak areas/subject(s).

Another thing which I found quite helpful, the list which shows the distribution of questions per subject for the final exams, your flight school should be able to provide such a list.

[BWSBoy6]

Thanks for the replies guys-really useful. Passed 5 but got 2 retakes week after next. Mocks this week. Fluffed PoF by one mark in the EASA :ugh: and had a bad day with Gnav (68% :{ ) but this weeks mocks gone SO much better. Managed 95% with PoF yesterday. Gnav tomorrow so fingers crossed. Certainly been easier giving my focus to the two rather than seven!

[shinigami]

i had full time to study for atpl exams, it took me 4 months and 3 sessions. it is possible if you study hard. it is the best feeling after it is done :p

[BWSBoy6]

Everything else going well but sadly Gnav proving to be a bit of a barsteward at the moment. Annoying because trig was always a strength at school!! :ugh:

[paco]

In what respect? It isn't that hard.

[portsharbourflyer]

A long time since I did mine, but what I remember about GNAV, is it was quite tight time-wise, the only exam where I didn't get time to go back and recheck the answers three times over.

BWS,

Did you manage to answer all the questions in the time or did you find you ran out of time on GNAV?

Better to answer 85% of the paper accurately that rush 100% of the paper.

[BWSBoy6]

I think you're right Ports. I think I'm probably rushing to get everything answered and consequently losing accuracy because of that. It's the one subject, for some reason, I'm finding a real slog.

[portsharbourflyer]

Again I don't know if they have changed the format since I did mine. But I do recall that four questions could be linked ie: the ground speed from the first question is needed to calculated the time for the following. So one mistake can actually lead to you getting two to 4 more questions wrong.

So I believe you can't really afford to get anything wrong, put it this way if you take 98 % of the exam time to accurately answer 80% of the paper and you then just put guesses for the remaining 20% in the last 2 minutes, in theory by probability you should still get 5% for guessing 20% (1 in 4 correctly guessed).

Small margin for error the 80 % answered accurately then you should still come out with an 80% mark.

That's is my logic. I didn't have to do a single resit. GNAV as said is the only exam which had me working to the last moment.

I also recall that ridiculous accuracy was needed when using the CRP, something you will never use in actual IFR flying. So I always used a 0.5 mm lead engineering pencil with a small tri square to mark and measure the position on the CRP (so better to have one without the wind-arm).

[RichardH]

Just for the record the exams no longer have cascading questions/marks as questions pulled randomly from QB. Also note you can only take material listed as valid for the exam into the examination room.

In GN it is CRITICAL that you can use a CRP5 without having to think too much.
Can't use a CRP5 equals exam failure it's that simple, however, when learning it's more important to get the answer correct FIRST then build up speed with practice.

You also need to think of the profit to effort ratio in answering a question. For example if a question is worth 2 or 3 marks then it is worth the time & effort. However if there is a 1 mark question say on departure and it is going to take you 3 minutes to answer this is not good PE ratio and you would be better coming back to it later (if time allows after the 2/3 markers). Definition questions should be done in seconds.

At the end of the day you are after getting 75% by the easiest means possible.

If you know what you are doing it is not difficult to get 90%+ with time to spare.

Freelance ATPL GNav instructor.

[cavok_flyer]

Have to agree with RichardH. Time management I found to be essential in GNAV. I got stuck on a question, fiddled about for too long and left 6 questions unanswered... Could not just guess since they were fill in the blanks answers. Passed with 75%. Not proud about that, just plain lucky.

[Transsonic2000]

Passed with 75%. Not proud about that, just plain lucky. Congrats on that!!! You passed and that's what it's all about, pretty damn sure that nobody will every ask you on that again!!!

As already mentioned before, time management is critical in G-NAV given that one has to answer 60 question in 120 min, that gives you 2 min per question (and not a second more). So don't get stuck with a single question, trying to get it figured out, it'll catch you in the end when your running out of time and too many unanswered questions remaining!

One key to success is knowing how to work the computer (CR-3/5 or whatever) in and out, forward and backward, since this will make about a good quarter of the G-NAV exam questions (Dead Reckoning)! The other part of the questions will focus on In-Flight Nav, Charts (scale calculations) and Basics of Nav (each making up about a quarter of the exam questions) and don't spend too much time on Magnetism & Compass!

And don't forget, in the end it's all about passed or failed - 75 will be your lucky number!!!

[paco]

Yes, you get fined £69 if you fail :)

[Finnpilot]

Hello there fellow aviators, and ATPL theory students!

First of all, I did not find a specific thread for these kind of thigns but I hope that this fits in here..
SO:

I am now closing in on the finishline with my theory studies with 4 exams left and currently sitting on an average of 88,75% (hoping to raising it to 90+)
The studies so far have not been too tough on me and I have passed all the tests on the first attempt. But there is this one thing that kind of bugs me and I do think I am not alone with this, or so I hope...

I feel like even though I have passed the majority of the exams and some of them with a bright result, I don't remember everything about them anymore. I do understand and remember the big picture but some details and those tiny things that I remember that the question makers love, just don't come clear as water anymore.
Does anybody else feel the same way and is this something that the airlines like to play around with during interviews or do they care more about understanding the big picture rather than the ability to calculate the mach cone, knowing wavelenghts of radio altimeters or what factors affects the three-/single-phase tachometer, gryo wander rates etc..etc.. I think you guys understand what I'm chasing after here..:ugh:

Ofcourse I know that repetition is important afterwards and I do plan to revisit the materials every now and then just to keep my knowledge current and competent.

Are there anyone out there that have been/is in this same kind of situation and what do you think of these things?

[cavok_flyer]

A chief flight instructor once told us (referring to some of the questionable material we have to know for the ATPL exams i.e. height & direction of a temperature sensor above a grass runway (yes, this question is in there!)) the exam questions should be based upon the knowledge of a current ATPL pilot with 20 years of flying service. I do not know if I totally agree with this, but when I ask one of the LH pilots I sometimes fly (SEP) with about polar stereographic maps, they mostly roll their eyes.

[Transsonic2000]

I feel like even though I have passed the majority of the exams and some of them with a bright result, I don't remember everything about them anymore.Well, let me tell you, you aren't alone in that boat! And that's basically a very common thing to happen and this will even progress with time, since your brain prioritizes and knows that the exams are passed and the knowledge is no longer required. And on the other hand it must be clearly said, that the sheer volume of all the different ATP subjects is well beyond the storage capacity of the human brain and at the most it's only possible to store the essential information over a short period of time.

In my opinion, the EASA ATP exams are made ridiculously difficult on purpose and it's not about testing any knowledge, since the material is far too extensive, it's more about creating an obstacle which to pass is on the fringe feasibility (for whatever purpose) and probably also a competition/fight between the systems EASA and FAA, trying to "prove/show" our system is better, we are smarter, what ever!

Instead of producing knowledgeable pilots this system rather promotes the "jack of all trades, but master of none" kind a pilot. That's a frequent complain which can be heard from airline training captains, the poor knowledge of prospective junior FOs during screening sessions. In my opinion it's a shining example of a failed concept, which needs too be revised urgently in association with real world aviation experts, like instructors, examiners and airline training captains.

[paco]

You will be pleased to know a revision of the LOs is about to take place. A review of the questions and the writing of new and better ones is already under way.

I agree - they had a chance to do something spectacular and screwed it. Let's hope we can do something about it.

[BWSBoy6]

Thanks for all the pointers guys, I took on board the tip about focussing on the questions where I could pick
up more marks and concentrated on accuracy too.
Took PoF resit on Monday and gnav today. Actually feel for once, gnav went well. Find out results on Monday. Came out feeling a bit happier than previous sitting!

[BWSBoy6]

Pleased that I passed PoF with 91% and Gnav 78% I would have hoped to have got more in Gnav but still a pass (just!)

All your contributions have really helped and are much appreciated.

Now on to Phase 2...

[BWSBoy6]

There's now word going around that the airlines will only look at results with an average of 90%! Sure a pass is a pass? If a minimum of 90% was required, the pass mark would have been set at that level? :ooh:

[Bealzebub]

"The airlines" are all very different entities. Each recruitment phase will normally follow a profile that sets a minimum tariff for selection. It is usually a case of whittling down the number of applications until you arrive at a manageable number from which the selection for interviews is made.

Generally the first stage is to set a minimum level of experience required. Nevertheless, that doesn't stop hundreds of applications being received that don't meet this requirement.

If a recruiting airline requires a minimum pass mark in examination scores, then it is free to do that as a means of setting a minimum tariff. Certainly not all do that. It has no correlation to the pass mark required for that particular stage of licence issue. Having a licence means you may meet one of the criteria for employment selection, it doesn't mean you will meet the criteria.

Whatever criteria is set, think of it as a big pyramid. The entire pyramid is comprised of "a pass is a pass." The recruitment team are looking for (what they consider to be) the very apex of the pinnacle of that pyramid.