230 Sqn shenannigans?

[Jumping_Jack]

RAF commander ?attacked? juniors | The Sunday Times (http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/uk_news/Defence/article1528393.ece)

This caught my eye today, all been kept under wraps?

[newt]

Would love to know the full story!

[air pig]

You will after the CM.

[NutLoose]

Rotate!





...

[Basil]

Pity it couldn't have been dealt with at station level.
Anyway, no matter the CM finding, what's the betting his new nickname is 'Basher'?

[airpolice]

Basil, the Wing Commander may have elected for a Court Martial in order to get a Not Guilty verdict. That, if he gets it, would be better for him than it being kept quiet at station level.

The chain of command have an option to drop it if the service prosecutor is not convinced of a reasonable chance of a guilty verdict.

At least with a CM the accused gets to put his side of the case to a wider audience. Trial by media is not necessarily a bad thing. He's currently accused of assaulting them, a trial is the best place to determine if it was a defensive action.

[Lima Juliet]

It would appear that sentencing was at 1000hrs on 6 Mar 15 - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/407230/20150225-court-assize-list-2to13-March-2015.csv/preview

Sorted out at Stn level? := No Sir. When a senior strikes a subordinate then that is bad news in my book...

LJ

Edit: airpolice beat me too it...

[charliegolf]

The chain of command have an option to drop it if the service prosecutor is not convinced of a reasonable chance of a guilty verdict.

But the 2 aggrieved parties can pop over to the cop shop and go civilian. Assault is assault.

What's the form in these cases? Career over, guilty or inoccent?

CG

[airpolice]

Career over, guilty or inoccent?

Not at all, some people survive, having done all sorts of bad things.

[charliegolf]

I note that a former boss of the same outfit made a significant boo-boo (don't recall if he was CM'd) in the 80s. He made air Commodore. He had a punishment posting to Hong Kong! Tidy boss tough.

CG

[airpolice]

It would appear that sentencing was at 1000hrs on 6 Mar 15 - https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...15.csv/preview


The action on Friday was just the court officers getting their ducks in a row, arranging estimates of how long each witness might be in the box and what amount of evidence will be led by both sides.


6 March 2015 1000hrs CM: PCMH 2649567F Wing Commander AP Baron - RAF Benson

THE COURT MARTIAL: PRELIMINARY PROCEEDINGS
PLEA and CASE MANAGEMENT HEARING (PCMH)


Trial is still a few months away.

[30mRad]

Shame the same didn't happen to a former boss of IX(B) Squadron who had a thing about horses (if you know the story from TELIC 01 you'll understand the reference) who used to take to hitting his JOs, flight commanders, and (allegedly) a female NCO in Goose Bay. I seem to believe that his flight commanders protected him for some reason....

[airpolice]

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/407130/20150225-Court_Martial_Results_Jan10-Jan15_MCSOM-O.csv/preview


I wonder what kind of useful Community Service the members of the armed forces might be made to undertake, given their skills.

[Lima Juliet]

Airpolice, my apologies, I misread the wrong row... :ugh:

[airpolice]

30mRad wrote: I seem to believe that his flight commanders protected him for some reason....


In 1974 I was driving an Air Traffic Landrover and collided, unseen by any witness, with some runway lights, causing a fair bit of damage. This was due to;

inexperience
lack of supervision
and exuberance on wet grass.

On confessing all to a friendly Warrant Officer, telephone calls were made, and I was then sent to speak to a very accommodating senior man at DoE who arranged for repairs, and it was blamed on a Lightning detachment who had been in during the day.

In 1976 I misjudged the gate (at high speed) at the entrance to the ops site and tore the side panels off the crewbus. The Finningley MTO accepted a cash bung, paid not to him, but to the MT Section Tea Fund, as they were in competition with Marham, I think, for the most miles covered without an accident.

The second incident was covered up for the benefit of the man doing the fiddle, so I can see why it suited him to let me escape, but the DoE guy and my boss saved my skin when not only was there nothing in it for them, but they could have been in deep **** if the truth had emerged while they were still serving.

I was at the time, a teenager, with little appreciation of the serious potential of such events.

This (IX(B) Squadron allegation) is about supporting an offender who would have been old enough to know better, as would the guys covering it up.

That's one of the odd things that I now see quite a bit of.

There's no explaining why an an innocent person would enter into a conspiracy to cover up wrongdoing, involving (up to that point) only other people.

If your mate is in the ****, then throwing him a rope is one thing, but getting into a different pile of **** beside him, is another kettle of fish entirely!

[ShyTorque]

I note that a former boss of the same outfit made a significant boo-boo (don't recall if he was CM'd) in the 80s. He made air Commodore. He had a punishment posting to Hong Kong! Tidy boss tough. CG

Having an RTA while over the DD limit surely isn't quite in same league as sticking the head on the dummy.

[NutLoose]

It totally depends if it was defensive

[Linedog]

In my book a head butt is not defensive. No excuse.

[ShyTorque]

I agree. It's not as if we're talking about two young airmen down the NAAFI...

Obviously, the accused is innocent until proven otherwise.

[charliegolf]

Having an RTA while over the DD limit surely isn't quite in same league as sticking the head on the dummy.

The link is being silly in drink, how rank might affect judgement, and how it might play out if someone thinks you've overstepped an unmarked mark.

CG

[NutLoose]

I agree. It's not as if we're talking about two young airmen down the NAAFI...


I find that rather patronising.

[charliegolf]

I agree. It's not as if we're talking about two young airmen down the NAAFI...
I find that rather patronising.

If you look at that doc with the hundreds of outcomes, Shy's comment seems to be statistically backed up!

CG

[Basil]

NutLoose,I find that rather patronising.
Looking back at my own past, I don't.
When I was a teenager I was rather different from that which I was required to become as a Royal Air Force officer and airline captain when 'laddish' behaviour would have resulted in, at the very least, a severe talking to or disciplinary procedure.

[woptb]

[/QUOTE]Having an RTA while over the DD limit surely isn't quite in same league as sticking the head on the dummy.[/QUOTE]

I think it could be more accurately described as a 'series' of RTA's, whilst driving an RAF vehicle, the OC's SWB if memory serves!

[Basil]

airpolice #13, Interesting. Some of the sentences seem appropriate or even lenient and others a little harsh, boys being boys, but, of course, we don't know the full circumstances.

[ShyTorque]

I find that rather patronising.

I don't see why you, or anyone else should, Nutty.

Unless head-butting has some previously un-noticed connection with your username.. :ugh: ! :p

Thing is, an airman could be a teenager, unused to drink or service protocol and might be seen to have some excuse. Senior officers (some of whom were once airmen, of course) certainly know better.

Note that I didn't write "should" know better.

[phil9560]

May be they just asked for it ?
Sometimes random violence arises from the smallest things.

[TBM-Legend]

What ever happened to "report to the CO's office at 8:00am and bring your cap"...times have changed....

[NutLoose]

Nope I stand by what I said, you very rarely have airmen assaulting SNCO's which is what this is roughly equivalent to.

[Uncle Ginsters]

It's amazing how little can evoke a CM at times...anyone remember the Brize $18 phone bill saga about 10 yrs ago?:ugh:

The truth will out.

[airpolice]

Nutloose wrote:
Nope I stand by what I said, you very rarely have airmen assaulting SNCO's which is what this is roughly equivalent to.

I think the current case involves something more like a Flight Sgt hitting a pair of Corporals. Not unheard of but very rare. Apart from anything else, they drink, mostly, in different bars.


"Honest laddies and Bonnie lasses, do not good gunners make" is an expression that I recall from early days of RAF Regiment training. The weapons instructor who told me that, in 1973, was confident that I was more suited to drinking coffee in Air Traffic than being out at the gate with a gun.

Looking at the stats I posted a link to, we need to expect the fighters to fight. But we really should be able to expect better of senior officers. Holding your drink, and knowing when to fur cough out of it when you see that others aren't holding theirs, are skills that should come with age. Those skills ought to be required for promotion as well.

[ShyTorque]

Nope I stand by what I said, you very rarely have airmen assaulting SNCO's which is what this is roughly equivalent to.

No, it's completely the opposite! This is a senior officer, the squadron commander, accused of assaulting his subordinates.

[Basil]

Holding your drink, and knowing when to fur cough out of it when you see that others aren't holding theirs, are skills that should come with age. Those skills ought to be required for promotion as well.
Yes, recollect being asked, at interview, how I'd deal with a colleague having a go at me in a bar. Realising, for the first time, that there may be a political problem in this outfit, I, of course, replied that I would attempt to de-escalate and, if that failed, quietly leave.
Fortunately, I never had to cope with " and another thing, you £**ing a*$ol*!" :ok:

[Old-Duffer]

Well Sir, it was like this Sir. I was marching smartly past the NAAFI at 0100 hours when this man rushed out and collided with the end of my fist, Sir. He fell to the ground and before I could halt, his nose contacted the toecap of my boot Sir. As I tried to help him to his feet, he suddenly came alert and sprang up hitting his right eye against my forehead - and th'as the honest truth Sir, Gord 'elp me!

O-D

[kaitakbowler]

O D, reminds me of an airman being returned to Sek Kong by the RMP, at the subsequent orderly room the RMP in charge was asked about the injuries the airman had received, the reply was along the lines of " Sir we had the suspect in the rear of the landrover, I thought he was attempting to escape and shouted STOP, my driver misunderstood and braked causing SAC X to hit his back on the buklhead, sustaining the bruising to his back, I said carry on and the suspect fell and hit his face on the tailgate as the vehicle moved away sharply.

All true, and I suspect not the first time either

PM

[Lima Juliet]

Reminds me of the Jag mate who was cleaning his room naked and tripped and fell onto one of the Hoover attachments...


...alright, I might have made that up!

LJ :E

[4ROCK]

Had the pleasure of attending the Ladies Guest Night at Gut when a certain Helo Sqn boss decided to try his hand at 'MT Coach Rally Cross' around the Officers Mess square - bending shed loads of tax-free Golf GTi's (helo pilots) and Porsche's (Harrier mates). Luckily no one was hurt....and even the Scribblies second-hand Vauxhall Vectra's were soon back on the strasse.............:ok:

[teeteringhead]

a certain Helo Sqn boss decided to try his hand at 'MT Coach Rally Cross' Indeed - 'twas the incident referred to at Post #11 - a SWB L/R was the vehicle in question ........

But the 1* and HK bit is right!

[4ROCK]

I always remembered that night (everything got a bit 'hazy'.....) was that he commandeered the MT coach which had picked us up from the married patch.....? :hmm:

[teeteringhead]

I wasn't there 4ROCK - it was just after my Gutersloh time - but I always understood it was the OC's (i.e. - his) SWB Landy.

Shy and CG would have been there at the time I think and might know for sure - but memories of Gut D-I-Ns were often somewhat hazy.......... :bored:

[charliegolf]

It certainly was his 'own' LR.

My memory is less clear about any damage done, more about (it was said) his refusal to stand down from a confrontation with a copper, who was saying, "Sir, perhaps I should drive you home instead?"

His leaving do was in the Spexard Inn, as I recall, and the turnout was big. He was a good boss.

CG

[ShyTorque]

I was there at the time, but not at the function. Iirc, I was out on exercise, living in a farmer's barn. The reason the OC was back at base, rather than with us was because he was acting Stn Cdr. Which didn't make it any easier. He was an exceptional Boss...apart from said incident. A great shame, it saddens me to think of it even now. But he did come up smelling of roses, in the end.

[kaitakbowler]

There was an incident at Gut after an OM function when a Flt Lt decided he was fed up of waiting for the coach to depart and attempted to drive it away, as it was winter the driver had left the engine running to keep the heater on. One of the pax on board was one of the MT Sqn's Flt Lt's who removed the offender. IIRC there was damage to both the coach and private property. Plod tried to put partial responsibility on the SAC MTD, but the MTO on board told them he had ordered the driver to leave the engine on.

PM

[4ROCK]

Bloody hell - I'm totally confused now.....far too many Wobblies at the time and too many years in between....!


Still, it was just one of many 'jolly japes' at the best RAF base ever and good to hear it didn't get in the way of a good bloke achieving a worthy rank........


Brings back 'happy' memories of my own interview (no coffee or sit down...) with the Staish over a little post-happy hour incident.....:oh:

[airpolice]

I've only ever had one "interview with Harry Staish" and not only was I not wearing my SD Cap, I was wearing my slippers instead of shoes.

I can't recall how it came about that I had no shoes with me when the Snowdrops collected me.

The SWO (Jack Shiel, a lovely man, with both his heart & head in the right place) was very unimpressed as he marched me in for Gp Capt Botterill to read my tea leaves. If only I had taken the advice offered and gone back to work as if nothing had happened, how different life would have been.

Still, at least I hadn't hit anyone.

[Wander00]

Then, many years ago, there were a couple of incidents after guest nights in College Hall (as it was then) involving variously an Asst Commandant's staff car, and a sqn cdr's Jaguar. At least on of those involved went on to have a distinguished career

[Roadster280]

All well and good, but nutting a subordinate is not cricket.

[NutLoose]

I've only ever had one "interview with Harry Staish" and not only was I not wearing my SD Cap, I was wearing my slippers instead of shoes.

By a quirk of fate I did Jankers in Civi's, that went down well at the 10pm parade with everyone in best blues and me in trainers, jeans and a t shirt :p
Most Of my not needed kit had gone back to UK in my boxes, cases etc were shipped up to departure airfield the day before I left by my mate and they had my uniforms in them.... Some people just do not have a sense of humour, and that included the SDO lol..... I thought the poor man was going to have a coronary and a friendly smile didn't seem to appease him...

I got arrested and charged with being drunk on my last day in Germany lol, nice Plod chaps in their white Range Rover didn't see them giving me a lift back thus saving me the cost of a taxi fare and me pointing it out as amusing.. After the fine which was less than the taxi fare would have cost, I had to do the PM Jankers before leaving in the morning . They couldn't even figure out who would read the charge as I had cleared the Station so was in limbo.

[Old-Duffer]

Well, if I was the Defending Officer, at the CM I would submit a 'plea in bar of trial'.

The basis of the plea would be that the accused would be denied a fair trial because of the lengthy discussion of this case and other aspects on an outrageous website called pprune! I would submit that my client had been needlessly exposed to ridicule, pre-judgement and there was no chance of a fair trial, therefore.

If that was rejected then I would immediately challenge each and every member of the court as to their knowledge of pprune and their prior knowledge of the case. That should take up a couple of days at least.

Drifting slightly, in 1982 I was appointed to defend an airman who was to plead guilty to a serious charge. Due to the power of my advocacy - as they say - the court did not find him guilty: quite proud of that little episode!!

Up the workers.

Old Duffer

[teeteringhead]

Drifting slightly, in 1982 I was appointed to defend an airman who was to plead guilty to a serious charge. Due to the power of my advocacy - as they say - the court did not find him guilty: quite proud of that little episode!!

Reminds me of a Rockape chum who defended one of his gunners at CM.

He always used to say:

"Due to my legal knowledge and skills as an advocate, I got him off with 56 days in Colchester!!" :(

[kaitakbowler]

I once conducted an orderly room where the Flt Lt hearing the charge had raised the 252 and was the only witness. 1980's military justice in action.

PM

PS. Guilty as charged.

[goudie]

I was escort to one of my airmen who was up in front of the CO for being caught in an 'out of bounds area' (aka knocking shop) in Limassol.
The CO awarded him 7 days jankers with a warning that should he offend again it could be 28 days next time. In a rich geordie accent the airman replied that he might as well make it 28 days now 'cos he wasn't going to be celibate (words to that effect) for the next two years.
The CO could barley conceal his need to burst out laughing as we were quickly dismissed by the Flt Sgt., to the sounds of laughter from the CO's office.

[teeteringhead]

I was present - can't recall the capacity - at a Det CO's Orderly Room in Norn Iron once.

One of our crewmen had been observed by an aged - well, 40-something - RAFP Cpl servicing a "Carrickfergus Commando" on the billiard table of the Sgts' Mess. Cpl on his rounds had seen the alleged offence through the (insufficiently curtained!) window of the billiard room.

The Crewman was a good hand, and so the Boss was doing his best to "get him off" on a lesser charge or something.

Boss: So Cpl Snooks, what makes you so sure that Sgt Thruster was actually having intercourse when you saw him?

Cpl: Well, Sir, I've been married for 19 years, so I reckon I knows it when I sees it!

Much fists in mouths to prevent the laughter...... :ok:

[charliegolf]

One of our crewmen had been observed by an aged - well, 40-something - RAFP Cpl servicing a "Carrickfergus Commando" on the billiard table of the Sgts' Mess.

Ah, the celebrated, "No conviction without penetration!" defence! I remember being regaled by the incumbents of 72 when I was the lone visiting Puma crewman.

On Orderly Rooms: do I recall correctly, that the guilty party was offered the right to accept the punishment awarded (great use of English that); or reject it in favour of a CM? BEFORE the said guilty party was privvy to the award!

CG

PS Sergeant's Mess, ergo snooker, not billiards!

[ShyTorque]

One of our crewmen had been observed by an aged - well, 40-something - RAFP Cpl servicing a "Carrickfergus Commando" on the billiard table of the Sgts' Mess. Cpl on his rounds had seen the alleged offence through the (insufficiently curtained!) window of the billiard room.

The Crewman was a good hand, and so the Boss was doing his best to "get him off" on a lesser charge or something.

Surely the other participant on the billiard table was merely trying to do the same.....

Question is, was it proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the pink was successfully potted? ;)

[charliegolf]

Question is, was it proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the pink was successfully potted?

There's no pink on a billiard table ('cos it were snooker I tell you). Oh, I get it!

CG

[Bladdered]

Ha, I recollect that a fellow flt cdr at Cranditz (well known Victor Tanker mate now barred from here) was allegedly caught looking after a US exchange officer on the snooker table in College hall after a dining in night. She had alopecia apparently and this was apparently corroborated by the witnesses but I couldn't possibly comment :E

[Old-Duffer]

In one's youth, JOs had to attend - I think - three courts martial 'under instruction' before being eligible to be selected to sit in judgement. My first was at Ternhill where a Cranwell Sword of Honour cadet was being done for: 'Disobedience to a particular order' three counts; all because he didn't want to go to Borneo, the second was the 'staged' court martial at the Junior Command and Staff Course to which outsiders were invited. Much hilarity with phrases like: 'I recognise him, that's the little bar steward over there'.

The third was at Labuan where a corporal and a couple of airmen were being tried on charges of B&^^*ry. The prosecuting counsel went into great lengths - excuse the pun - about penetration having to be proved, I felt quite unwell!!

O-D

[teeteringhead]

Question is, was it proven beyond all reasonable doubt that the pink was successfully potted? Or possibly the brown...........!

Hat, coat, door, etc

[Basil]

She had alopecia
Did he catch it? Well, no 'scraper' for him :E

[Wander00]

OD et al, at JCSS in 69 I was the "accused" at the CM; and having just lost my aircrew medical cat I was specially selected to be tried for an alleged low-flying offence, over Ashbourne I recall. Against the usual run of the case I was found guilty, and the wags on the Court decided that I should be sentenced to be deprived of my flying badge, harsh in the circumstances I felt. but it was all done with good humour, and stood me in good stead in my second regular career when I sat on a CM of a Cpl chef accused of stealing chickens (frozen).

[Roadster280]

Court Martialled for thieving frozen chickens? That must have been an entertaining charge sheet.

Wing Commanders head-butting juniors, NCOs robbing frozen chickens, drunken senior officers drink-driving coaches and LRs, what's next?

[NutLoose]

There was the chap on his charge upon being awarded a derisory fiver sniggered, he was prompty marched out, charged for sniggering, marched in again, ( he claimed he tried to contain a sneeze ).... when it came to the "will you accept my punishment or elect for court marshal" he elected for court marshal, strangely it all went quiet. BTW the charge was promptly dropped.

[Union Jack]

There was the chap on his charge upon being awarded a derisory fiver sniggered .... - Nutty

Which, at the risk of thread drift, reminds me of the no doubt apocryphal story of the Midshipman who appeared before the Chairman of Gieves in the latter's capacity as a magistrate and, on being fined £5, asked for the fine to be put on his Gieves account.:=

Jack

[Wander00]

On my return to regular service and after my Admin Sec course I was posted to B.....k. On arrival I was told 3 things by my predecessor in pst Mike C....s


1. You are SDO next weekend


2. you are O i/c Guard of Honour


3. On Monday you start a Summary of Evidence against an SAC for amongst other things taking and driving away the Stn Cdr's staff car, theft of petrol and sundry other charges which I no longer recall, and if the Summary is accepted you will also prosecute at the CM.


The only part of that lot which did not occur was the "prosecuting officer" bit. But the summary was quite entertaining as I recall, and revolved round getting parts for repair of a car to his parents' home and an errant girlfriend. Also interesting evidence as I recall about where the keys were kept.


And a good time was had by all!

[Bob Viking]

I was on JOCC with the defendant. It's fair to say that, whatever happens from here on in, his career took more of an upward trajectory than my own in terms of rank.

I won't comment on the case since I know him (not very well admittedly), but I will just add that regardless of the outcome he is a man who has done his fair share of operations judging by the collection of metal on the left breast of his No 1s.

Unlike the Sqn Ldr / Cocaine thread I'm glad to see we haven't had too much 'holier than thou' garbage spouted so far.

BV:ok:

[FleurDeLys]

Will the Wg Cdr's antics, if proven, affirm his suitability for a presenter post on a leading TV motoring programme, if such a post were to fall vacant?

[Basil]

Bob Viking, Totally agreed.

FleurDeLys, only if his politics are diametrically opposed to those of Wg Cdr Gardner ;)

[Lima Juliet]

What a great idea - Clarkson for Court Martial or even an Orderly Room.

"Would you like to go for trial or will you accept my punishment?"

C: "I'll take your punishment"

"OK, wear a pink spandex leotard, and, whenever you drive a car you will tow a caravan. This will last for 4 weeks. Dismissed..."

:}

[Pontius Navigator]

Back in the 60s, our sqn cdr, later OC Tengah (not Mike Knight), and finally retired as an AM, was a jolly good egg. He used to carry a bull whip, punch his compiling on the arm, sufficient to dead arm him and in short was a bully.

I last met him as he was coming through a doorway. He gave me double handed blow below my rib cage and asked me how I was.

yo uhh

But as a jolly good egg they kept promoting him.

[NutLoose]

Our Wing Co in Germany used the football system and used to carry a red and yellow card in his pocket, yellow was a warning at which the offender tended to get removed from sight and the follow up red for continued offending was a my office tomorrow morning notification... seemed a sensible idea to me and appeared to work.

[ShyTorque]

Nutty, That's a much more civilised way than the head butt method...

P.s. Question is, in your time in the mob, did young airmen use the same way of indicating their displeasure after a few tinnys? :E

[Pontius Navigator]

Shy, like the Army driver mentioned in today's press, or a flt lt guilty of ABH, if you are essential the penalty might be moderated.

Once, after our 16 st admin clerk chastised, with extreme prejudice, a diminutive Glaswegian MT driver. The MTD got 28 days but our man was only fined a month's pay. OC MT was p..d off, but we suggested our man might wish to volunteer for a 28-day night shift during a major exercise.

[Yozzer]

This should be done and dusted now; but appears to have gone underground. Can anybody provide the outcome of the CM, if indeed it happened?

[Wander00]

At B....k a not very bright but hefty FLM was accused by his slight and diminutive wife of beating her up. Complaint had come via her aunt. He was dealt with administratively, but within days his Mum was on the phone to OC 11, demanding to see the stn cdr (DC). She was fielded by OC 11, but still demanded an interview with the Staish.I am not sure how, but she was bounced from top office to me (OC PSF) via OC Admin and OC PMS. I said I was not prepared to discuss the matter with her (large woman, lots of bling, and husband little, cloth cap, more worried about his pigeons) but if Bloggs was prepared to be interviewed by me in his parents' presence, so be it (he was 27 for goodness sake).


Started off gently enough, but then suddenly asked him "had he beaten his wife?". He, without thinking said "Yes". He was immediately lifted by the ear from his chair by his mother, who apologised for bothering us and took him I suspect to give him a good dusting behind the bike sheds. Certainly never heard any more complaints, but did find at least a wg cdr and a sqn ldr in the stair well listening to the interview as best they could. OCAW bought me a beer that night too.

[PARALLEL TRACK]

No idea of the outcome of the CM but I am pretty sure he is not the boss of 230 anymore!

[Trim Stab]

At the end of one exercise in Denmark, we were (unwisely) told just prior to the ENDEX night out in Copenhagen, that we should lay off the sauce as early the following morning, instead of a snoozy ride back to Brize in a Herc, we would have to jump out over Weston on the Green.

I said unwisely because a couple of individuals assumed there would thus be no Customs checks, and decided to take advantage of what they could buy in the Copenhagen red light district. They got a nasty surprise when we found Customs on the DZ at WOG. There were some very red faces in front of the CO the next day...

[Uncle Ginsters]

Not guilty.

...and good luck to him.

Funny how sensationalism only seems to work one way :/

[Yozzer]

Not guilty

Yet he lost the squadron he commanded for just a few months and thus his career (Command tour) compromised. I see the integrity of the military judicial system retains the sieve like qualities it always had. If the legal system does not get you; Manning will.

AB - Good Luck chap, whatever road you take. I would have flown with you in a war zone.

[NutLoose]

That is just wrong, he should have all details of his CM removed from his records and resume his post, do they now prosecute those that besmirched his name?

[wokkamate]

Agreed. He wasn't guilty, he never was. I hope that those who falsely claimed against him will now be prosecuted with the full might of military law....but I doubt that will happen. He lost his Sqn, he may get another chance but it will still affect his career. Loyalty goes both ways. Good luck Wg Cdr Baron, it would be a pleasure to fly with you again :ok:

[Hueymeister]

So did it never happen and two JO's colluded to cook up a 'cock' and bull story..or was it hi-jinks that got out of hand?

[teeteringhead]

Any link to the result and/or a report? AB was known to me and to (at least!) one of the Teeterettes.......

They were aware of the CM and will be pleased with the result.

Couldn't find anything on Google.

[Old-Duffer]

I doubt he will get his sqn back - the new chap is well settled and a Nav to boot!

There has always been a problem with the British justice system and it is coming to the fore again with the recent shed load of ancient sexual claims. The accused is named, the accuser is not - that can't right. We have seen recently a number of accusers being prosecuted themselves for making false claims.

That said, a complaint must be investigated and the prosecuting authority must have had reasonable grounds to believe that a conviction could be secured based on the evidence offered, otherwise it would not have gone to trial. In the interim, the person being investigated cannot remain in post because, unlike civvy street, the accused and his accusers live and work in the same place.

Old Duffer

[Archimedes]

O-D - agree, but in this instance, the Sunday Times published the names of those making the accusations (2nd paragraph in the story the OP linked)

[NutLoose]

Nothing to stop him now suing them for loss of potential earnings, rank etc?

I would insist any mention to the Court Marshal is expunged from his records etc, because like it or not, even though found not guilty, it will still follow him around like a bad fart..

[teeteringhead]

I would insist any mention to the Court Martial is expunged from his records etc But sadly Nutty - unlike the Men in Black - you can't expunge it from memories.....

...... and equally sadly, despite the verdict, there will be those who say "no smoke without fire" :(

[Biggus]

Isn't it about now that someone mentions the tales I used to hear of Naval Officers who were CM'ed, and as a result lost seniority which put them back into the promotion bracket, and they were then subsequently promoted.....

Or was that a myth?

[teeteringhead]

Or was that a myth? Ask Alan West ;) In 1986, while working on the Naval Staff at the Ministry of Defence, West left documents detailing large cuts to the Navy on a canal towpath. These documents were recovered and then published by a journalist from the Mail on Sunday. At a subsequent court martial West pleaded guilty to charges of negligence and breaching security.He explained that they had fallen from his coat pocket whilst walking a friend's dog. West was issued with a severe reprimand, the second lightest sentence available. The severe reprimand that he received was time expired before he became eligible for promotion to flag rank.

And he finished up a 4*, 1SL, a lord, GCB and a Privy Councillor!

[Old-Duffer]

Yes, the RN did have people who forfeited seniority and moved back into the promotion zone of Lt Cdr to Cdr and that was when the zone was clearly defined and I understand no longer operates ;)

The Navy also had "The Feast of the Passover". This was a thrash held when one was passed over and hence moved out of the promotion zone.

O-D

[Basil]

Just come across this again - good to read.

Recollect attending a predominantly mil Burns Supper where a guest (I suspect not mil) took exception to one of the speakers who, I can assure you, was very moderate in his content and delivery. Fortunately matters did not progress beyond words at the end of the dining room.
Nowt as queer as fowk.