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GunpowderPlod
6th Mar 2015, 07:49
This article appeared in the SCMP today 06Mar15:

Video has emerged of a Cathay Pacific flight landing at Hong Kong International airport said to have been filmed by a passenger from inside the cockpit.

The footage, which shows an onboard countdown before the plane lands, circulated online after it was posted along with six photos to the Weibo account of Ada Ng Tsz-yan, a young woman who said the pilot allowed her to sit in the cabin.

Ng said in a message dated March 3 that the flight was full and she was fortunate to have been allowed by the captain to sit behind him in the cockpit.

“Experiencing the take-off and landing inside the cockpit is very cool,” she said.

She also said that as long as you're healthy, and you're the immediate family member of an airline employee, you can also sit in the cockpit. However, she did not specify if she was a family member or not.

A spokeswoman from Cathay Pacific's corporate comunications department confirmed this in a statement.

“Cathay Pacific permits approved persons under the Hong Kong Civil Aviation Department guidelines to apply for the use of the jump seat," the spokeswoman said. "Under the guidelines, stringent qualification requirements and access procedures are stipulated. Eligible applicants include Cathay Pacific employees and their immediate family members.”

One photo, which shows a ticket bearing Ng’s name, suggested the trip was Cathay Pacific flight 465 from Taipei to Hong Kong on February 26, a route usually flown on a Boeing 777-300.

Other photos showed a view of what is believed to be a runway at Chek Lap Kok airport, lined with other planes to one side.

Heightened security measures in the wake of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks in the United States have meant greater restrictions on who is allowed to access the flight deck.

Comment: I am amazed that an airline could operate this policy. Aircrew are properly vetted, family members are not. An the word "include" suggests that other categories of unspecified persons are allowed access to the flight deck. I would hope that any captain would not permit this on his aircraft despite the policy and I would like to see HK CAD and Cathay cancel it.

Juan Tugoh
6th Mar 2015, 08:09
Nice to see sexism is alive and well here. The assumption that a captain is Male is pretty poor, and reflects badly on the poster. Also why trust the judgement of someone that can only envisage a male captain? Blinkered, reactionary thinking::ugh:

despegue
6th Mar 2015, 08:13
Gunpowderplod,

as a Captain, I will allow whoever I deem suitable on MY flightdeck, as long as it is within the airline's policy.

that indeed means that I might allow family members of my crew to sit on the jumpseat, or colleagues, or obviously my own family.

Jumpseaters have been allowed for decades, without problems.
The 9/11 hijackings had nothing to do with jumpseaters.

If you do not like this, may I suggest using your car, a bus, train or ship for your next travel, and do not lecture me nor my colleagues on Flightsafety and security.
Please note that the PP in PPrune stands for Professional Pilots and NOT for Professional Prats.

highflyer40
6th Mar 2015, 08:16
This happens all over the world. Employees, family members and even people from the regulators themselves.

I think most captains would like to see it go back to the way it was, when it was up to their judgement who they let in, and that could be anyone.

The fact that the flight was full is a red herring, means nothing. She had a boarding pass with a seat in business class.

OldLurker
6th Mar 2015, 08:30
Totally agree with the responses above.

Long ago my instructor was captain and I was passenger on a flight into Kai Tak, and he let me take the jump seat for the approach: a valuable and never-to-be-forgotten experience.

SloppyJoe
6th Mar 2015, 08:43
highflyer40

The fact that the flight was full is a red herring, means nothing. She had a boarding pass with a seat in business class.

Her boarding pass was for the jumpseat, as indicated by the JMP where the seat number would normally go. The two pen lines on the boarding pass indicate it is a staff ticket so she would have been an authorized person to occupy the jumpseat. The flight was full as if there was any spare seat she would have had it.

MatrixMan
6th Mar 2015, 08:44
Gunpowderplod,

as a Captain, I will allow whoever I deem suitable on MY flightdeck, as long as it is within the airline's policy.

that indeed means that I might allow family members of my crew to sit on the jumpseat, or colleagues, or obviously my own family.

Jumpseaters have been allowed for decades, without problems.
The 9/11 hijackings had nothing to do with jumpseaters.

If you do not like this, may I suggest using your car, a bus, train or ship for your next travel, and do not lecture me nor my colleagues on Flightsafety and security.
Please note that the PP in PPRuNe stands for Professional Pilots and NOT for Professional Prats.

Hear, hear!:ok:

deptrai
6th Mar 2015, 09:07
I am amazed that an airline could operate this policy. Aircrew are properly vetted, family members are not.

CX needs to change their policy asap. First of all, forbid all wives, husbands and children to occupy jump seats. As a next step, all family members need to be thoroughly vetted by the management. After all, even when they are safely forbidden to access their loved one's place of work, they are still in a position to poison a pilot. Until family members are thoroughly vetted, pilots will be required to live in isolation, to improve safety. Pilots whose family members fail to pass the required background checks, will be given the option to sell their kids and divorce...etc etc.

I'd love to see this thread moved to Spectators balcony :rolleyes:

GunpowderPlod makes a lot of interesting suggestions to improve airline safety. Here's another favorite of mine: There should also be a third person on the FD so that there can always be two on the FD at all times. This 3rd person could be security instead of FC if necessary. (from http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/535538-malaysian-airlines-mh370-contact-lost-431.html#post8407511)

I suggest the 3rd person on the flight deck should be recruited from airport security screeners, they are properly vetted...

Oldaircrew
6th Mar 2015, 09:17
Personally, I believe it is safer, from a security point of view, to have a family member on the flight deck than in the back with all the terrorists.

I think you will find that many pilots might be inclined to open the cockpit door if they were shown the door camera view of their spouse or child with a knife to their throat.

No Fly Zone
6th Mar 2015, 09:31
Captain, sir! I agree with you!! While one obviously cannot grant that access in the U.S., on flights that do not touch U.S. soil, you (and your company) remain in control of your aircraft. The U.S. has some legitimate issues about flights to/from their ground, but otherwise should not be dictating policy to anyone. Yes, I'm an Amerikan!

GunpowderPlod
6th Mar 2015, 09:45
My apologies for not using an existing thread: Question Flight Deck Access for passangers which I see has a majority of rational comments as opposed to the mostly rabid reactions here from people who are supposed to be professional pilots?

From further research, I see that there is no internationally standardised policy when I naively assumed that flight deck security would be paramount and would err at all times on the side of caution.

Thank you and goodnight.

No Fly Zone
6th Mar 2015, 09:48
@0ldaircrew: Like all of us, I'd hate to see that situation. I don't even want to think about how I might react. Frightening.
Very rare that my partner flies my flights; when so, he keeps to himself, never makes the link to the flight deck and knows better. If any FA's know, they don't say anything to anyone and hell no, my partner is never admitted to the cockpit during flight. Never!! Complicated?;) Figure it out...:8

deptrai
6th Mar 2015, 09:58
From further research, I see that there is no internationally standardised policy when I naively assumed that flight deck security would be paramount and would err at all times on the side of caution

what's your background to contribute to this topic, if I may ask? Since you find your knowledge through "research", may I assume you are a "researcher", erring on the side of naivety? I'll take you seriously, so here's some food for thought: Happy pilots make safe pilots. Happiness could include such simple things as showing your kid your place of work, maybe in an attempt to build a bond, and to explain why you are sometimes not at home, and why you are sometimes tired when you're at home. Happiness could also include such simple things as being entrusted to carry a yoghurt.

andrasz
6th Mar 2015, 10:04
Most airlines in more enlightened parts of the world have a policy of allocating available jump-seats to staff on standby tickets on a full flight, even after post911. Also it is the expectation that own staff on confirmed tickets (duty travel) would take a jump-seat on a full flight rather than deny boarding to a fare paying passenger. On the other hand putting revenue customers on a jump-seat is an absolute no-no. At carriers operating in happier environments it is at the full discretion of the PIC on who is permitted to sit on the cockpit jump-seat(s) provided they meet policy requirements. From a security perspective it is in fact better to have the jump-seat down and occupied to block cockpit access. My own first flight at the age of six was on a cockpit j/s, I'm really sorry that today's mass hysteria denies much of this opportunity to todays' kids and future aviators.

ExXB
6th Mar 2015, 10:17
I flew a jump-seat on a short sector in the 80s. I was airline staff, but not that airline's. It allowed me to get home, and back to work the next day.

I loved the experience and had a good rapport with the crew. I learned a great deal just from observing.

The passenger in question here was clearly travelling on a staff standby ticket. The captain was in agreement and it was in accordance with company policy.

Perhaps this should be moved to the breastfeeding in public thread in JB ... (where a few want the rest of the world to do it their way, just because)

Kiwithrottlejockey
6th Mar 2015, 10:18
Too bloody right. Back in more enlightened times in the 20th century I used to fly all around NZ in airliner cockpits because I used to ask nicely if I could travel up there (while a paying passenger) and in many cases, my request was granted by the captain. I even flew a couple of trans-Tasman flights from NZ to Australia in the cockpit after asking nicely. On one of those occasions, I was pleasantly surprised to discover that the Captain was my cousin (who I knew was a captain for Air NZ, but wasn't aware he was captain on that flight until I entered the cockpit).


However, since 9/11, I've never asked, because I haven't wanted to put pressure on flight deck crews.

deptrai
6th Mar 2015, 10:28
agreed, andrasz, and The ban on persons in the flight deck in some states is just headlining by those in Govenment I fully agree with you too, A and C. Yet there could be a somewhat more rational additional explanation for some of the rigid post 911 security measures than just politicians and bureaucrats demonstrating that they are "doing something". The ban on cockpit crew carrying liquids etc will prevent uninformed members of the public from reporting "terrorist" threats when they see a pilot with a yoghurt passing through security, and not allowing family members in cockpit jump seats will prevent uninformed passengers from phoning in unnecessary "terrorist" threats. With a lot of goodwill, there may be a tiny bit of rationality, some measures may be somewhat helpful to calm down SLF on the verge of panic (such as the OP?)

Aluminium shuffler
6th Mar 2015, 11:57
What a hysterical rant. Security is improved by having a loved one on the jumpseat - first, they impede the entrance of anyone who gets through the door, second, they can't be a hostage if they're in the cockpit, and third, those rare events of pilot suicide may have been prevented if a family member had been aboard. Maybe it should be mandatory for pilots' partners to accompany them at least on the nice night stops? ;)

gcal
6th Mar 2015, 12:21
Many moons ago when I was young I sat on the flight deck of a 707 doing the chequer board approach to Kai Tak.
The captain was my step father and that fantastic experience was one of the reasons I enjoyed a long and happy career in aviation.

deptrai
6th Mar 2015, 12:30
cheers for moving the thread! :ok:

ShotOne
6th Mar 2015, 14:14
I hope you won't feel this rabid, gunpowder plod but, yes, the rules regarding use of airline jump seats vary from country to country. As do the rules, for that matter, on crew licensing, fatigue, retirement age and a host of technical issues. This is especially true when operating to the USA; they have adopted a different approach to many other states. US pilots, for instance, subject to qualification and special training, are allowed to carry firearms on the flight deck. It's not for me to say whether their way is right or wrong. But I would emphatically reject your underlying assumption that any deviation from their rules represents a safety threat.

Burst-tyre
6th Mar 2015, 22:05
When I was in the air training corps in the mid 70's one of the senior officers had a connection with someone in BOAC. As a result several pairs of cadets had the opportunity to go up to Heathrow and fly on training flights and observe from the jump seat. My flight was in a 707. This was a real treat for a young cadet which I really enjoyed. We flew from Heathrow to (if I recall correctly) Bedford aerodrome where we did numerous circuits and bumps. I think I remember the pilots must have been training for engine fire procedures because a loud bell would go off every so often with lights flashing and they would go through a procedure. When we got back to Heathrow the trainee pilots had some sort of debrief I recall and one got a bit of a telling off - for what I don't know maybe something he did not do correctly. But it made me aware what a responsibility it must be to be flying these planes.

IBMJunkman
7th Mar 2015, 13:20
In the late 80s or early 90s I was offered a jumpseat on a JAL 747 LAX to Sao Paulo. I rue the day I could not clear my schedule to make it happen.

ShotOne
10th Mar 2015, 16:50
It's worth reflecting that 9-11 didnt happen because of jump seating; jump seat passengers they would certainly have made the hijackers task more difficult and may even have stopped them. In the UK at least, jump seat rules represent an opportunist grab by operators to allow them to use the seats (as they've wanted to for years) for company employees.