Helicopter crash near M1

[tomotomp]

this was yesterday near Bedford
Three people had a miraculous escape when their helicopter crashed – less than one mile from the M1.

Aspley Guise helicopter crash: Passengers escape unhurt (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-31638336)

[206 jock]

Damn pilots, not being able to control their tails and digging the runners in.

I saw the interview with the policewoman on the local news last night. It did make me smile.

Oooh, here it is: Three people miraculously escape from helicopter crash - Milton Keynes Citizen (http://www.miltonkeynes.co.uk/news/local/three-people-miraculously-escape-from-helicopter-crash-1-6601005)

Looks like a high ROD landing that went wrong to me, due to the presence of a warning light. Look at the deep furrows in the top picture - did it impact, spin round throwing its tail behind it as it span and came to rest? Result was an inevitable mix of helicopter parts spread across the field. Lucky escape for sure.

Carb icing maybe? Raven 1 so 'carb heat assist' equipped.

[Same again]

Ooh look - a Robinson.

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

On the bright side that's 3 Robbo's this month and no injuries so that goes to show they do crash well and non CFIT crashes do seem very survivable ! Plus the owner no longer needs to worry about new blades

Cbs

[Peter-RB]

On the brighter side still they could have been -7 blades so the insurers will take the hit on them.

having been close to mother earth it looks like the runners went through the grass but into the soil and by a little bit of bad luck the retard was enough to nose the rest over. but they all walked, so good ending..:ok:

[Thomas coupling]

On the bright side - 3 Robbo's removed from service. Win, win, win for all.

[helihub]

Boring Robinson bashing again, and I have no axe to grind either. Just remember how many people this manufacturer has brought into the industry and how many people in the industry have benefited. And yes, some do trade up to bigger helicopters too.

[Gemini Twin]

... and remember how many they've taken out too! Peter - RB you don't have to call him a retard I'm sure he was trying his best.

[Kalif]

Oh bloody hell, now I find that I'm agreeing with TC! Does life get any worse?

[Camp Freddie]

Robinson has very much democratised entry into aviation

Those of us without the benefit of military training for many reasons (I was busy doing other things) at least had a way in when in our 30's that was not really possible before.

Robinson bashing generally seems to be in my experience mostly from people who haven't flown them to any significant degree.

[helimutt]

I agree freddie. Or those who were trained at no cost to themselves. ie ex Military pilots.

I don't know many self improvers who trained on Robinsons who slate the machine constantly like the ex mil guys. But the robinson products served a purpose for me and gave me the break I needed. Would I fly one again? Tough question. Possibly. Do I need to? Not at the moment but I would do if I had to but my daily inspection would be more thorough than it ever was before. :ok:

[nigelh]

Life was so much simpler in the days before there was a helicopter suitable for common people . When a private helicopter arrived in the 70,s you knew you were dealing with class and wealth .... Of course the rot started with cars .... There was a time when ,even if you had the cash , Rolls would not deliver one of their cars to you if you were not a gentleman .

[SilsoeSid]

Maybe it's because those ex-mil pilots are, ironically, brought up in a more open flight safety environment. Perhaps it is this that makes them more versed at speaking up when they see something wrong, especially in forums such as this, even if it upsets or is against the opinion of others. Of course, that then has the inevitable consequence of bringing with it the wrath of the internet experts.

If one 'pig headed ex-mil pilot' posts something on here than makes another pilot think twice before doing something, is that a good thing or a bad thing?
If I am considered to be in that category ….good!

How many times during threads of varying topics do we see others post comments such as, "I've learnt a lot from this thread!"; "I hadn't bought of it that way!"?
Many times, and these are the threads where the majority non ex-mil pilots oppose the views of these ex-mil pilots who are simply stating the obvious flight safety hazards. Things that then become obvious to the non ex-mil pilots, but not unfortunately until after the 'event'.

There are many cases where, if someone, anyone, had seen something take place and had spoken up, lives would not have been lost.

Helimut even sums it up for us when he says " Would I fly one again? Tough question. Possibly. Do I need to? Not at the moment but I would do if I had to but my daily inspection would be more thorough than it ever was before."

He doesn't like ex-mil guys slating the Robbo series, (not all do mind you), yet he then tells us that given the choice of flying one again he possibly would not. His own confidence has been dented at some stage, enough to tell us that even if he was to ever get into the machine again, his inspections would be more thorough than ever they were.

One doesn't have to fly a particular aircraft to see the affect it has on people and their friends & family. Maybe it is the pilot that induces the majority of incidents, and we are told many incidents occur because it is primarily a training aircraft and incidents of this quantity are to be expected. However, a fair few are with experienced pilots at the controls away from the training environment and, therefore, those commonly sounded triangular excuses* just simply don't fit onto those square holes.


p.s Anyone that knows me is aware that I have no chips to balance in the civ/mil discussion. We all got to the same place, but by different routes.
p.p.s. Oh, and yes I have had the 'pleasure'!


*Triangular excuses - training environment/inexperience/other human factor

[Pozidrive]

Just looked at the pics in the Post 1 link.


I now understand why the registration is painted on the underside.

[Thomas coupling]

Pozidrive: :D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Look at it this way perhaps: How many people has the Robinson (allegedly) KILLED, who would still have been alive and kicking today if they had flown ANY other single piston helicopter?

[timprice]

Best thing as someone has already said at least no one has been hurt.
Our industry does not need this bad publicity.
We need helicopters saving people like the Air ambulance etc
We don't need idiots knocking what little aviation we have left, we require everyone in this industry to pull together to make it better not to kick the xxxx
out of anyone who is down, I know it's our national pastime.
Lets be positive about a great future for rotorcraft in the future in Aviation. :D

[SilsoeSid]

Best watch it lads, seems like the pilot has a past :ooh:

Helicopter crashes into Sussex field but pilot and two passengers walk away from wreckage. (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2970657/Helicopter-crashes-field-way-funeral-pilot-two-female-passengers-walk-away-wreckage-barely-scratch.html)

Blue, they're blue!!!

[helimutt]

Sid, You are quite incorrect Sir.

He doesn't like ex-mil guys slating the Robbo series, (not all do mind you), yet he then tells us that given the choice of flying one again he possibly would not. His own confidence has been dented at some stage, enough to tell us that even if he was to ever get into the machine again, his inspections would be more thorough than ever they were.

I don't actually care one way or another if 'ex-military' guys slate the Robbos. It would just 'appear' that the people who slate them are ex mil who have never had to train and hour build in one. :)

My reason for mentioning the more thorough inspections i'd do if I was required to fly one again, are because of mechanical/blade failures recently highlighted in NZ/Aus etc.

Must be nice to start a career without the 100k debt around your neck. :hmm:

[ShyTorque]

Has anyone ever been forced to become a helicopter pilot?

[SilsoeSid]

Fair enough helimut, but it's a bit of a strange thing to say "my daily inspection would be more thorough than it ever was before" when all you would be doing is complying with a safety alert telling you to do so; The daily inspection is more thorough than it was in your/our time anyway. Normally I'd sense a bit of back pedalling going on there, but hey ho!
http://www.robinsonheli.com/service_library/safety_alerts/r44_c016-7_main_rotor_blade_crack_safety_alert.pdf

Oh, and should you venture robbo way again, don't forget the extra caution to be taken after maintenance;
http://www.robinsonheli.com/service_library/safety_notices/rhc_sn43.pdf

Apparently the engineers appreciate the extra inspection of their work :ok:

[SilsoeSid]

Don't know about being forced to become a helicopter pilot Shy, but I've had to be shoe-horned into a 22 …. well, I did have a winter coat on :eek:

[[email protected]]

'We had only been flying for about three minutes when I noticed the warning light was flashing. Either there was a problem with an engine or the propeller blades, but we started going into auto-rotation and made a crash landing. Are we sure this bloke is a qualified helicopter pilot???

Perhaps we 'robbo-bashers' have been wrong along, the aircraft is fine - it's just the f*ckwits flying them that are the problem:ugh:

It rather looks like he managed to introduce the blades to the tail-boom at some point during his attempt at an EOL.

I don't actually care one way or another if 'ex-military' guys slate the Robbos. It would just 'appear' that the people who slate them are ex mil who have never had to train and hour build in one. maybe it's just because we have had the luxury of flying a real helicopter and can tell the difference.

[Vertical Freedom]

Well [email protected] I'm not exMil, with 25 years Civil flying I can tell You that the Crapinson Flimsicopter is a DEATH TRAP & belongs at the local dump, all them every last one of the junk :yuk:

[Gordy]

'We had only been flying for about three minutes when I noticed the warning light was flashing. Either there was a problem with an engine or the propeller blades, but we started going into auto-rotation and made a crash landing.

Crab....you beat me too it......

[krypton_john]

"Either there was a problem with an engine or the propeller blades"

So let me get this straight - he was flying a Robinson twin engined aeroplane?

[SilsoeSid]

Careful guys, have you seen his hat?

[Romeopapa]

The usual condescending posts from those flying nice twin engined helicopters and never having to pay for it:ok:

Of course commercial,military,offshore and police helicopters never crash and when they do the finger is never pointed at the pilot.

It may lack creature comforts but the Robbo does what it says on the tin.

I'd like to see a few of the regulars on here try to muster livestock low level for hours on end in the Australian outback in OAT's of over 37' wearing shorts and a t shirt :=

I did my training in an R22 in those temps,without doors, and with a muster pilot.

The combination was excellent and if you can fly the Robbo then you can fly anything.

However some flying experts might find it lacks headroom!

[SilsoeSid]

I think overall on PPRuNe, the majority of the comments are aimed at the handling, not the type.

Anyway...

I'd like to see a few of the regulars on here try to muster livestock low level for hours on end in the Australian outback in OAT's of over 37

... would we have to keep within certifications?



It may lack creature comforts but the Robbo does what it says on the tin.
...and more :eek:

"The R22 has been the most popular model for these types of operations, but owners and operators need to fully appreciate the stresses placed on aircraft during mustering operations, and the characteristics of aerial mustering operations, which may be quite different the type of flying for which the type originally received certification."

http://www.atsb.gov.au/media/29947/b20040292.pdf

HeliHub Accidents (http://helihub.com/tag/accidents+Australia/)

[Romeopapa]

Sid

I am sure we all dream of being expert hero pilots such as yourself but in this case the guy appears to have done a successful auto and the skids dug in to the soft ground.

The mud on the nose suggests it pitched forwards, blades appear to have sliced of the tail and flipped it on its side.

I was taught any accident you walk away from is a bonus.

Chinese whispers tend to distort what a person says and what is reported.

This pilot did a good job.

Please give him some credit:=

Have you published any flying instruction manuals by any chance?

As for the handling have you ever heard the saying a poor workman blames his tools?

I think a holiday on a sheep station in the outback might show you what can be done with a small helicopter. Bring plenty of toilet paper.

[SilsoeSid]

RP;Sid

I am sure we all dream of being expert hero pilots such as yourself but in this case the guy appears to have done a successful auto and the skids dug in to the soft ground.

The mud on the nose suggests it pitched forwards, blades appear to have sliced of the tail and flipped it on its side.

I was taught any accident you walk away from is a bonus.

Chinese whispers tend to distort what a person says and what is reported.

This pilot did a good job.

Please give him some credit :=

Have you published any flying instruction manuals by any chance?

As for the handling have you ever heard the saying a poor workman blames his tools?

I think a holiday on a sheep station in the outback might show you what can be done with a small helicopter. Bring plenty of toilet paper.


Hmmm, I defend ex-mil pilots against chip on shoulder-ers such as yourself, I comment that the pilot might have 'a past' to be wary of when making comment (and mention the boathouse door colour, that's the clue!), inform someone of a safety alert, comment on how I need a shoehorn to get into a Robbo, remind people of 'the boathouse related hat' and my last post makes the point that most of the comments made here are about handling and not specifically the type ... not once have I criticised the pilot ...


... yet you feel warranted to give me your tirade of a post .... :eek:



I'm no expert hero pilot, far from it, but as it happens I'm now off to the boathouse :ok:

[VP-F__]

Combine the cheapest and least forgiving product out there with the pool of least experience pilots and low currency and what do you do you expect.

I am surprised having recently arrived from the fixed wing world that minimum currency in a helicopter is just two hours (including a checkout) per year, that seems altogether to little. No matter what machine you fly commercially you are being checked every six months and of course flying (hopefully) more regularly.

In my very limited time on helicopters I must admit that I enjoyed my 22 time but she was the most challenging and least forgiving to fly.

[Romeopapa]

Good point VP.

As you know the Robbo is not forgiving but because it can bite it makes an excellent trainer.

Decades ago a friend of mine was doing his rotary conversion at the same time as me but in a
Hughes 269.

Very nice more stable and easier to fly than the R22.

I still recall the first time I flew a B208 and it felt like being in a Rolls Royce.

Its a long time since I did my helicopter training but in those days in Australia we did full on to the ground autos and hot and heavy take offs.

I believe there is no longer a need to do full on autos in some parts of the world.

My instructor had a party trick where he did a full stop auto in a 47 then lifted to do a 360 turn before putting it down again.

[[email protected]]

low level for hours on end in the Australian outback in OAT's of over 37' wearing shorts and a t shirt well protected against any post-crash fire then!!! I presume you haven't seen a burns victim up close.

Would love to see the pre-flight performance calculations before the 'hours at low level' mustering and I'm sure everyone keeps within their MAP limits at all times.

All very heroic and impressive I'm sure but when you start doing it the dark with people shooting at you I might have some respect.

[Romeopapa]

I was advised on the first day of flying a helicopter in Australia that if I really wanted to be safe then the best place was terra firma.

Crab....

Are you suggesting there is a market in the outback for Nomex suits,epaulettes and bone domes?

Take a look at Vertical Freedoms wonderful thread and give me your opinion of his flying attire.

As for bullets...thats a risk if you join the forces.

Silso...

I see you looking down your long nose at the R22.

Perhaps if you can manage to load the ego onboard the airframe you might discover something of a challenge in comparison to just sitting in a chair and playing with the electronic kit.

[helimutt]

So glad this thread didnt descend into a slanging match. Interesting to see the various sides taken and by the experiences and backgrounds.

Anyway, yes i'd maybe be more likely to check things more carefully than I did when I was younger.
Sid, I do appreciate your input really. ;)

My final word is that flown sensibly within the limitations, the R22/44 is probably quite a safe machine, but explore beyond its limits and you may well be bitten, if not worse. It has served many Rotorheads well, enabling some of us to enter into the world of Commercial helicopter flying, and for that i'm thankful. I could never have afforded it otherwise and was never lucky enough to get into the military.

[Romeopapa]

Helimutt..

The Robbo is fine given its cost base.

Most of its critics have either not flown it on a regular basis or never flown it because they were lucky enough to get their training free of charge.

If some of the nomex suited and booted brigade had to fly fire break work in Oz I am sure they would soon become desk jockeys:ok:

Personally I prefer to drive my own car (and aircraft) than chauffeur someone else's limo :)

[John Eacott]

Helimutt..

The Robbo is fine given its cost base.

Most of its critics have either not flown it on a regular basis or never flown it because they were lucky enough to get their training free of charge.

If some of the nomex suited and booted brigade had to fly fire break work in Oz I am sure they would soon become desk jockeys:ok:

You cannot fly fire ops in Oz without being one of the nomex suited, booted and bone domed brigade; the agencies will not allow it. Your trolling here is on a par with your pontificating about police operations: pitiful.

A day at Avalon with me would have been far more beneficial to your well-being than making it up as you go along on Rotorheads.

[Romeopapa]

If you can wind your neck in for a moment John let me explain.

I have a property in Darlington Hills near Perth and have a number of friends around the area who all contribute to taking pictures of the firebreaks we have to have finished every December.

All done with a Robbo from Jandakot. No doors and no suits just a couple of us taking pictures to cover our backs.

All a long way from the UK.

Now lets get back to the thread and perhaps you can suggest how you would have landed on a pristine golf course in England instead of a ploughed field when the lycoming quit:ok:

Give this guy a break please.

As for suggestions of trolling re police ops.

I post links to all stories which are recent plus the UK police twitter every day.

[[email protected]]

Which clearly translates to 'I have enough money to own my own helicopter and I can do what I want with it - I don't have to listen to aviation professionals!'

[Romeopapa]

You know nothing about the circumstances of this forced landing and neither do I.

However you are smug enough to suggest a civilian pilot of 20 years experience who carried out a successful auto where he and his passenger walked away was not up to your standard?

When did you last do a full auto with the blade inertia of an R22 in to a wet ploughed field:=

[Efirmovich]

For those in the UK,


He reminds me of the Harry Enfield character,


Only Meee !


At least he got it down and walked, plenty would not have...!


E.

[Bravo73]

As you know the Robbo is not forgiving but because it can bite it makes an excellent trainer.

Rubbish. It is because of that reason that it makes a very poor trainer.

The reason why it is so popular? It is cheep, cheep.

[nigelh]

A tiny bit chippy I think Crab !!!! I think most people would prefer to own and fly their own helicopter rather than being the chauffeur!!!
Although I wouldn't ever want to encourage anyone to fly a Robbo and generally think Robbo pilots sometimes seem to lack skill ( and obviously cash ..!)....
IF the engine actually quit , and it may not have done , then I think he did a fair job of getting it down . I certainly wouldn't want to guarantee a better outcome if I had been flying . 2 good results . Everyone safe and one less Robbo !

[SilsoeSid]

Personal insults, references to flying suits, epaulettes, helmets and ex-mil pilots and with these items at the fore, referring to the well respected 'Vertical Freedom' ... all very similar traits to 'Ye Olde Pilot' for those that remember him/her.

[SilsoeSid]

RP;Crab....

Are you suggesting there is a market in the outback for Nomex suits,epaulettes and bone domes?

Take a look at Vertical Freedoms wonderful thread and give me your opinion of his flying attire.

Does that include the photo posted at 11:40 today of VF posing next to his steed wearing a flying helmet?
:ugh:

[helimutt]

Nigel, You state:-

Although I wouldn't ever want to encourage anyone to fly a Robbo and generally think Robbo pilots sometimes seem to lack skill ( and obviously cash ..!)....


Is this how you view a Robbo pilot? A tad unfair dont you think? It takes a fair bit of skill to learn to fly one as it certainly doesnt have the stability of a H300 or B206 etc. So I definitely disagree about lack of skill. As for cash? Not everyone is born with a silver spoon up their ass, or the wherewithall to make loadsamoney in business.

But I do agree that certain robbo pilots shouldnt be in the air. Usually the ones with too much money and not enough sense. Ive actually refused to fly with some ex students and given up instructing them in the past because I knew, given a licence, theyd probably kill themselves and I didnt want to be a part of that. :eek:

[nigelh]

Just messing with you really ...it's just that whenever you hear of something really really daft .... It's nearly always a Robinson being flown !!!

[helimutt]

:):ok::ok:

[Peter-RB]

Gemini Twin,

I have only just seen your post, "I was being economical with words," meaning
the skids having penetrated Mother earth then created enough retard to nose over, but yes I am chuckling:D:D

[Sir George Cayley]

I've just searched the AAIB website for GA Helicopters, any date and key word Robinson.

Its returned 250 reports.

I thought it would of been more:uhoh:

SGC

[SilsoeSid]

Thought there'd be more SGC? ....

... as the AAIB is only responsible for the investigation of civil aircraft accidents and serious incidents within the UK and its overseas territories, here's a little bedtime reading for you ...

HeliHub Accidents R22 (http://helihub.com/tag/Accidents+r22/)

HeliHub Accidents R44 (http://helihub.com/tag/Accidents+r44/)

HeliHub Accidents R66 (http://helihub.com/tag/Accidents+r66/)

HeliHub Accidents Robinson (http://helihub.com/tag/Accidents+robinson/)

[AnFI]

SS
You seem to be on a Robbo targetted mission at the moment.
Those lists look dramatic.

Quite a lot of wires, a lot of 'rushed landings' folled by rollover, generally no injuries, tail in hedge, dynamic rollover etc

I thought this one was rather good:
“Landed in a tree”. Pilot was able to climb out of the helicopter and down from the tree to phone for help.

Mostly mishandling events, this is why 'handling' is the biggest life saver.

I think if you put this population of pilots in the EC135 you'd see quite alot of 'landing in a tree' events too.

"A total of six were on board – four adults and two children under 10 – and the helicopter was operating short joyride flights fro..."

Very few mechanical induced events, because these machines are exceptionally reliable. They are also operated with shockingly poor maintenance often. "the crashed helicopter had been rebuild following a fatal crash 2 years before" (Brazil)

Even events like reportedly 'losing power' are often suspect, as in the case of: "the pilot said he opted to turn the helicopter to the right and downslope, while trying to override the engine governor to attain additional engine power. " oh dear

Mostly handling incompetence/misfortune, if training organisations were not busy ticking irrelevant boxes they might focus on how to fly. It's the blind leading the blind.

Saying that even the 'World's Best' helicopter training can go adrift:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/332255/XZ936_SI_Interim_Report_OS.pdf

If the amount of training they did were scaled up to the size of the Robbo operation then we'd have a long list of silly misfortunes in Gazelles too.

How many EC135's (or A109s) are there in UK compared to Robbos?
What are the relative fatal accident rates, (for equivalent trained crews)?

Just sayin'

[SilsoeSid]

AnFI;SS
You seem to be on a Robbo targetted mission at the moment.
Those lists look dramatic.

Far from it, unless I am restrained in the same way as Butch and Marsellus are in Pulp Fiction, I will not be stepping foot in one so I have no personal axe to grind about any Robbo product. All I am doing is 'reporting' incidents that have made the news, and when SGC says that he thought there may be more robbo reports than he had found, I linked to another source that may be useful.

Please quote me where I have made an anti-robbo comment, before simply assuming. :confused:

Whereas I have said; "I think overall on PPRuNe, the majority of the comments are aimed at the handling, not the type." ...

... perhaps you'd like to direct your attack on others, such as those that say things such as; " I'm not exMil, with 25 years Civil flying I can tell You that the Crapinson Flimsicopter is a DEATH TRAP & belongs at the local dump, all them every last one of the junk :yuk: "


But I guess you'd rather relive the old slanging match against me than comment on others :rolleyes:

[helimutt]

Just purely out of interest, and certainly with no axe to grind, if you don't mind telling me, what was your background? Army? Gazelle? I'm just wondering. Also, whatever background you have, one question, were there any accidents on the type you were trained on due to handling skill inadequacies?


I just feel that the training side of things has gone downhill and there is less experience in the air nowadays. A lot of self improvers, allowed to instruct at minimum hours. (yes I am guilty of it, having been an instructor on R22's with a grand total of about 250hrs)

Is it the system at fault, the ability of the pilots, or the helicopters themselves? I know the military are very fussy about who they use as pilots, because they want people who can do the job. In the Civilian world, if you have enough money to throw at it you can be a pilot too. Doesn't mean you can fly for sh*t though.

[Romeopapa]

Silso

You come across as an arrogant know it all who has never had an incident in all your state funded flying.

Often found in non commissioned ex army wallahs.

Do I also detect a tinge of jealousy aimed at those successful enough to self fly their own machine instead of driving for a pay cheque every month.

I am not Doctor Who but it appears it appears I have now been challenged as being three other posters of whom I have no knowledge.

Perhaps you an other critics of this successful auto can give some advice as to how you could have improved on the outcome?

I have given my description of the possible scenario where the skids dug in.

I am not going to stoop so low as to start citing police accidents.

Have you in fact got any hours on a R22?

To the others who are having a go at civvy pilots and the R22 its interesting to see a common thread of being paid commercial often ex mil and with plenty of crew-room time to spend here waiting for the next shout.

[Stanwell]

RP,
I notice that in your recent exchange with VF, you didn't get around to asking him just why he holds Mr Robbo's products in such poor regard.
He is, after all, an ex heli-mustering pilot.

[Romeopapa]

I believe he was lucky enough to fly the 47 which apart from speed and cost of fuel is a wonderful piece of kit.

The Robbo,would not be much use in Nepal!

The ex military guys here appear to frown on anything flown by a civilian and without a turbine.

This is a discussion about a successful autorotation of an R44 by an experienced
private pilot.

No input regarding the accident from the experts:=

As for Dick Smith..he did a good job and I admire he efforts in the past and now.

[bumbulum]

a successful autorotation

By all accounts the autorotation was successful but what of the subsequent eol?

[SilsoeSid]

RP;
Silso

You come across as an arrogant know it all who has never had an incident in all your state funded flying.

Often found in non commissioned ex army wallahs.

Do I also detect a tinge of jealousy aimed at those successful enough to self fly their own machine instead of driving for a pay cheque every month.

I am not Doctor Who but it appears it appears I have now been challenged as being three other posters of whom I have no knowledge.

Perhaps you an other critics of this successful auto can give some advice as to how you could have improved on the outcome?

I have given my description of the possible scenario where the skids dug in.

I am not going to stoop so low as to start citing police accidents.

Have you in fact got any hours on a R22?

To the others who are having a go at civvy pilots and the R22 its interesting to see a common thread of being paid commercial often ex mil and with plenty of crew-room time to spend here waiting for the next shout.

You sound oh so similar to someone else that used to post here :suspect:

If I may repeat my last post to you;

"Hmmm, I defend ex-mil pilots against chip on shoulder-ers such as yourself, I comment that the pilot might have 'a past' to be wary of when making comment (and mention the boathouse door colour, that's the clue!), inform someone of a safety alert, comment on how I need a shoehorn to get into a Robbo, remind people of 'the boathouse related hat' and my last post makes the point that most of the comments made here are about handling and not specifically the type ... not once have I criticised the pilot ... // ... yet you feel warranted to give me your tirade of a post .... :eek:

Since then; I have replied to your post when you tell us that in support of your anti flying helmet agenda, you say we should look at VP's thread ... I point out that VF's latest photo shows him wearing a helmet :ugh: I then post some links in order to help SGC locate some incident reports and finally I make it clear that I have no axe to grind against Robinson products.

It's clear that I have not critisised the pilot and it's clear that I have no axe to grind about Robinsons, so please ... Why do you insist in this tirade of abuse aimed at me?


You seem to be very anti ex-mil pilots, especially non-commisioned types. Might that be because you are an aviator yourself and find it hard to come to terms that your offspring, despite passing through Cranwell and Dartmouth, failed to follow you into the aviation world, while all us oiks have had the privilege of being able to do so? Just a thought. :ooh:

[SilsoeSid]

"You come across as an arrogant know it all who has never had an incident in all your state funded flying."

Funny you should mention arrogance, that was something Ye Olde Pilot used to call me. Back then, as now, I refer you to Viper's reply in Top Gun.
Incidents, you wouldn't know the start of it! :ok:


"Often found in non commissioned ex army wallahs."

Wow, there certainly is a chip there! :confused:


"Do I also detect a tinge of jealousy aimed at those successful enough to self fly their own machine instead of driving for a pay cheque every month".

If I had the money, the last thing I would do is have my own aircraft.
By the way, does that also include the pilots that fly you to your holiday destination, or those that will be there to whisk your family members to hospital in their moments of need?
Of all the 'successful' people out there, I wonder just how many actually do self fly their own! :rolleyes:


"I am not Doctor Who but it appears it appears I have now been challenged as being three other posters of whom I have no knowledge."

I have only said that you remind me of Ye Olde Pilot as you carry the same traits as he/she did. :ok:


"Perhaps you an other critics of this successful auto can give some advice as to how you could have improved on the outcome?"

As I have already pointed out, I haven't at any time critisised the pilot. :=


"I have given my description of the possible scenario where the skids dug in."

Well done. :D


"I am not going to stoop so low as to start citing police accidents."

I think youre already low enough! :hmm:


"Have you in fact got any hours on a R22?"

Too many! :eek:


"To the others who are having a go at civvy pilots and the R22 its interesting to see a common thread of being paid commercial often ex mil and with plenty of crew-room time to spend here waiting for the next shout."

We do get time off for good behaviour you know! :E

atb
SS

[MOSTAFA]

Romeopapa

You said - Arrogance "Often found in non commissioned ex army wallah's."

I know nothing of Dr Who but Agatha Christie once said, 'I often wonder why the whole world is so prone to generalise. Generalisations are seldom, if ever true and are usually utterly inaccurate'.

Well she got that right, you pretentious prat and yes many years ago I was; one of the many non-commissioned ex Army wallah's, I even had a hand in SS's pilots course and now with close to 12,000hrs and not a single minute of it in any form of Robinson - I would suspect I've started more powerful APU's in my time. But that isn't your fault albeit, some on here, me included, do take umbrage to somebody, you; who likes to castigate those of us who started out as............. 'Non Commissioned ex Army wallah's.

[Thomas coupling]

RP: What on God's earth made you comment like that?
Do you genuinely believe what you print?
(and I thought I was bad!)
I would suggest a gentle reverse manouevre out of this position, perhaps with a nervous laugh or joke or even a mild apology. You never know - others may restore their faith in what you have to say in future....................You don't want everybody thinking your number of posts (56) is actually your IQ, do you. Silly Billy :rolleyes:

[206 jock]

Ah! I've just remembered why I don't post on this forum very often. Too many people with WAY too much time on their hands.

[Thomas coupling]

I'll add to that Jock: Foxtrot Oscar then :)

[206 jock]

Sorry TC..i thought you'd be at after school club or something at this time of day.

[Thomas coupling]

Mummy won't let me go tonite.

[ShyTorque]

Agatha Christie once said, 'I often wonder why the whole world is so prone to generalise. Generalisations are seldom, if ever true and are usually utterly inaccurate'.

Surely not the WHOLE world..... far too much of a generalisation. :p

Quite surprising how some folk have so much of a grudge to bear against those who were successful in passing the military selection process.

Keep it up, chaps, I'm beginning to enjoy this.

[[email protected]]

If the amount of training they did were scaled up to the size of the Robbo operation then we'd have a long list of silly misfortunes in Gazelles too. AnFI - perhaps if you looked at how many thousands of training hours were flown just by the British armed forces (we had 3 training bases, one for each Service all using the Gaz for many years) let alone many more thousands flown by foreign mil - you might understand how few training mishaps there have been and even fewer fatalities.

That is because it is a well designed helicopter with few vices and is capable of being mishandled (accidentally or deliberately) without turning itself into scrap - not a description you could level at the Robinson family of helos.

Romeopapa - if you had ever flown with a 'non-commisioned Army wallah' you would know that they are very often excellent pilots - something that can't be said for the majority of self-funded Robinson owners!

[Bing]

If you look at the last page of the Service Inquiry into the last Gazelle crash https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/396854/20150116-Gazelle_XZ936_SI_-_2.pdf

You'll see a summary of Gazelle incidents/accidents in EOL training which was compiled about 6 months before the ETPS one so I'm not sure if they included it in the final figures. In total 67 including 4 Cat 4/5 over several decades and 1.1 Million hours of UK military operation. Oh and 12 actual uses of the technique in anger for whatever reason.

I don't know how that compares to the R-22 but I suspect quite well.

[Gemini Twin]

Peter-RB. I knew what you meant, it's just the way it sounded in my head. :ok:

[diginagain]

As a former Army NCO pilot trained at someone else's expense in a gas-turbine powered helicopter, the closest I came to getting a ride in one was a surprise invitation during a practice diversion on a check-ride. My companion may have held other ideas, since he was looking at a career in civil aviation, but as we left Sherburn in our Lynx, I turned to Mario and asked if he was serious about driving a cattle-frightening leaf-blower for fun.

[Efirmovich]

Little did he know when the warning light came on and he put his Propeller Blades into Autorotation what an international slanging match he would start on Pprune !


Hilarious !


E.

[bumbulum]

Am I really alone in wondering how this crash is being accepted as a well executed eol? How can that be?

If this fella is recognised as a highly experienced helo pilot as quoted above shouldn't he be expected to manage an eol without wrecking the aircraft - and then getting praised for it??? Aren't mere students supposed to be able to cope with an engine failure? Even/especially in a low inertia type like the Crapinson?

[AnFI]

SS

I am sorry I didn't get back to your post sooner.
Just to clarify I have great respect for your careful posts and perceptive level thoughts.

It is a shame that Pulp Fiction would be required to get you in a Robby, not sure you're being objective.

The reason I say you appear to be 'anti Robbo' is that you are posting many Robbo related poor examples. Of course there are many examples but then there are many of them around. The HeliHub extract is propogandist since if you do a type unspecified data pull you see that there is a heavy input from other types. Appearing to be at least proportionate to their numbers.

It would not be surprising if highly trained two crew helicopters flying simple A-B routes were to outperform private pilots. They OUGHT TO. I think private pilots (or Robby pilots) do a pretty good job on balance. Of course I would not deny that there are a few (really) daft examples, but then there have been cringleworthy examples in the commercial twins too, haven't there? (AJ, Paul McCartney, Haughey, NS Instrument App (several times), EPTS Gazelle, Chelsea Execs x2 etc)

We have just witnessed the most extaordinary set of sophisticated twins crashing mostly through appauling flying practices by (apparently) experienced highly qualified non-amateurs. AW139, A109x2, S76(outrageous near miss), AS332 etc etc

It's a bit rich to hit the private Robby pilots. Especially if you wont even go in one!

4 embarassing Robbos recently reflect that training occurs in them and that 'handling skills' are being phased out by the 'authorities' and all 4 have been without serious injury. We have a consensus here that 'handling skills' are missing, but that is a direct result of policy, it is less important than how to fill out a form apparently. (Agree SS you finger handling, but it is wider than the Robbo fleet, as in the examples above)

VF is admired for his beautiful pictures, and his excellent result after engine failure (AS350) in the mountains, but I doubt if I am alone in finding that his 'Crapinson' remarks reflect badly on him. I believe a friend of his was killed in one, I don't know the cause, but presume it must have been a(n extremely rare) mechanical failure? What were the circumstances VF?

The helicopter is exceptionally well designed, efficient, reliable, simple and accessible. It has revolutionised and revitalised the helicopter industry.

(and those spreading the myth that there aren't any mil accidents should be ashamed, YOU know that there are countless cockups often, they don't seem to be reported as often as they occur though, i wonder why that is? Think back, be honest. Having watched an afternoon of EOLs at Strawberry I can say a strong tailboom looks like a useful thing!)

[AnFI]

bumblbum
'they' don't insist on perfect EOLs anymore.

Nigelh's classic arguement is in play here, he says (and he's right to a point) more helis are damaged from practice EOL than from engine failures so that result would count as ok from that perspective.

Personally I think that a pilot should be able to perform an EOL without damage, since it reflects a level of handling competence. It's a rare event and it should be a non-event. That said in a sticky field you'd have to arrive stationary to guarantee not falling over.

Handling is the key. Go to someone who knows how to fly well and get them to help you improve your handling skills. A 'Prof Check will not do that, 'done right' it assures a uselessly poor standard, possibly wasting everybodies time? It was conceived as a training opportunity and has been hi-jacked into a 'test'.

[SilsoeSid]

It's a bit rich to hit the private Robby pilots. Especially if you wont even go in one!

I say again, " I have not at any time critisised the pilot", and I have flown one!

All this talk about NCO pilots on this thread, yet nobody has picked up my observation about the baseball cap, and the badge that is on it :suspect:

[AnFI]

SS
Fair, but still Robbi bashing.
What does the badge say? (i don't have the screen quality i guess, is it Red Bull?)
Mind you flying with a hat does seem to correlate with poor handling.

[ShyTorque]

AnFI, the accidents and incidents you quoted occurred on twin engined helicopters and not on singles simply because singles are not allowed to carry out the type of work involved. Trying to use such examples to show that singles are therefore safer is totally flawed, false logic. All it can prove is that staying on the ground is safer than flying.

Btw, at least one of the recent tragic accidents you quoted involved pilots who initially trained almost exclusively on Robinson helicopters and most of their flying experience was gained on that type.