GPS, A bonus or a necessity?

[foxmoth]

Following from another thread, I thought the following comment was a sad indication of the capabilities of todays pilots
I agree that IFR nav is ALMOST impossible without a GPS,

Having spent many years where GPS was not even an option I just wonder why some cannot manage without?:eek:
(I know some VORs are about to be withdrawn, but this is BEFORE that!)

[stevelup]

Given that BRNAV is now pretty much mandatory for all Eurocontrol enroute stuff, and that it is all but impossible (if not actually completely impossible) to comply without an IFR GPS, then it's a necessity, not a bonus.

[flybymike]

And If you want increased protection from VFR CAS infringements it's also a necessity.

[Rod1]

My impression is that if you infringe, you get asked were you using GPS - if not why not.

Rod1

[flybymike]

Great...reality dawns on the CAA finally.

[Above The Clouds]

Amazing, anyone remember the days of trans-atlantic ops going A-B using high powered land based NDB's and NDB's on moored ships across the atlantic, and thats not in airliners but GA ferrying.

[thing]

Foxmoth: I wondered about that comment too. How does he do his IR renewal?

I think he must mean using it for RNAV approaches.

[Mach Jump]

Given that BRNAV is now pretty much mandatory for all Eurocontrol enroute stuff, and that it is all but impossible (if not actually completely impossible) to comply without an IFR GPS, then it's a necessity, not a bonus.

I agree with Stevelup. Although it is possible to manage without en-route BRNAV in Controlled Airspace if you have to, it is now expected that you will have it, and the only practical en-route BRNAV for GA is GPS.

MJ:ok:

[Johnm]

If you fly IFR in controlled airspace then to meet the requirements of BRNAV or PRNAV there's no practical alternative to an IFR certified GPS with an up to date database.

Routes are no longer mapped using ground based aids, a VOR is not a lot of help nor is a DME and an ADF is useful only for listening to the sports results.

[stevelup]

a sad indication of the capabilities of todays pilots

I think that's a pretty inflammatory statement to be honest...

Do you actually fly IFR in CAS throughout Europe? If you do, could you please share how you do it without a GPS?

What happens (for example) when you get routed direct to a 5LNC waypoint 200nm away?

I'm going to put my neck on the line here and say that the bigger danger here is the people who are unwilling to accept that things have moved on.

[foxmoth]

If it is inflammatory it is probably because the initial statement was too sweeping - my flying in CAS is mostly done in a slightly bigger aircraft than fits into the GA category and of course there it is all done on GPS, in the UK I often fly outside CAS in an aircraft without GPS, I seem to manage this quite successfully, even inside CAS in the UK it can still be done, though you may need to turn down some clearances, thus disproving the premiss that to do so is ALMOST impossible, if the statement had said it was "almost impossible for flying across Europe in CAS" that would have got a different reaction!

[ShyTorque]

Foxmoth, I wonder how much IFR outside CAS you have done recently. Try doing it without ground based radio navaids, as some of us are regularly required to do.

The aviation world is a diverse one and things move on and change, not often for the better. There are, sadly, far fewer navaids than when I began using them almost forty years ago. There is also less radar cover, but that's a different issue.

[stevelup]

... and the days are numbered for most of the few remaining ones.

Now is the time to embrace GPS, not stand on the sidelines accusing the people who do use it of being incompetent!

Anyone can, in about 30 seconds, come up with a handful of simple routes (OCAS if you like) that can no longer be achieved using ground based aids.

An IFR GPS is actually a very complex piece of kit with lots of hidden nuances. I don't understand why mastering that device is somehow seen as a lesser skill than using radio nav. It's certainly a heck of a lot more relevant these days!

[Flyingmac]

My aircraft has no navaids apart from a compass. No transponder either.
It has a still air range of over 700nm though, making quite long over water flights possible. I wouldn't say GPS is either a bonus or a necessity. More of a Gift from God.


Just to clarify. I spent over 20 years flying with a chart and stopwatch before Xmas arrived, in the form of SkyDemon.

[BackPacker]

NDB's on moored ships across the atlantic,

Did they really moor ships across the atlantic with NDBs on it? I find that hard to believe.

First, the Atlantic is pretty deep (3.3 km on average, according to Wikipedia) so anchoring is a major, major undertaking. And then you get the economic argument: Who is going to pay for all of this, including salaries of crews plus the infrastructure to bring them to the ships and back, fuel for the generators and whatnot. And it most be boring as hell for the crews.

[foxmoth]

Foxmoth, I wonder how much IFR outside CAS you have done recently. Try doing it without ground based radio navaids, as some of us are regularly required to do.

A fair amount actually, but I think you are missing my point - I did not say that I was anti GPS or there are not areas where it is difficult to manage without, I merely pointed out that ATM it is often still possible to navigate without it, it may be getting harder, and indeed, as aids get withdrawn in the near future will get to the stage of being "Almost impossible", but for anyone that is capable we are far from that situation ATM.
I would be interested to know what flying you do where there are NO ground based aids available, I could see that being the case in somewhere like Canada, but even across Europe there are still plenty around ATM? - and of course when pilots started flying IFR it would mostly be done by dead reckoning with (if they were luck) a radio range at the destination - no GPS then!
Neither am I on the sidelines accusing the people who do use it of being incompetent! I am quite happy to use one myself when I have the luxury, I would also agree that it is the future, the people I would consider incompetent are not those that USE GPS but those that cannot manage without it!

[ShyTorque]

I didn't actually say that I thought you were anti GPS.

But you wouldn't be able to safely and reliably do the job some of us are doing without it. You might try, but if you can't use beacons where there are no beacons! It's almost impossible to squeeze through some of the airspace gaps we are required to use, often on an ad hoc basis, at low levels, if you can't self navigate.

I see you have edited your post #16.

Try navigating under the London CTA, say from Biggin Hill to Barton.

[foxmoth]

Try navigating under the London CTA, say from Biggin Hill to Barton.

Agreed, not easy - but the sort of route I would have flown 30 years ago BEFORE the days of GPS (and aids and airspace on that route have not changed much since then), again, a lot easier WITH GPS, but certainly not "almost impossible" and that still leaves an awful lot of routes that are actually easy to fly, plus if you fly CAS, even just a limited amount - which ATM is still possible without a GPS, it actually becomes an easy route!
As I said, it was the generalisation that IFR Nav is "almost impossible" without GPS that I object to, as in the example you give it makes it MUCH easier to have it, but fly say Goodwood to Sywell Via CPT and "almost impossible" becomes "piece of p!*s", and there are plenty of places that you can still fly that this applies to, so "almost impossible" for certain applications/routes, yes I agree, "almost impossible" in general - no.

Edited to add - even with GPS, which way would you get from S of the MAN TMA into Barton?

[marcus1290]

Foxmoth,

I said "almost impossible' because i fly IFR around Glasgow and Edinburgh and there are some SIDs out for Glasgow that have waypoints that aren't on a radial from any nav aid so the only way of flying it is with a GPS.

[phiggsbroadband]

Looking at a GPS recording of my attempts to follow a VOR Radial, or magenta GPS line, they all turn out to be very wobbly lines.
On the other hand when flying with a GPS coupled auto-pilot the track is so much more of a straight line.


So maybe PPL navigation should be more concerned with how to program the auto-pilot for successful wobble free navigation. Also as NDB and VORs may soon to become obsolete, a new thinking on PPL training is required.

[foxmoth]

IFR around Glasgow and Edinburgh and there are some SIDs out for Glasgow that have waypoints that aren't on a radial from any nav aid so the only way of flying it is with a GPS.

So again, these are specific routes, your comment was a generalisation about IFR nav,and there is a lot of flying outside this that it does not apply to, even these routes, unless dedicated RNAV sids, should be possible without GPS - it may be best to advise ATC that you may be slightly off track due to this, but still possible.

[Eric T Cartman]

@ BackPacker

Did they really moor ships across the atlantic with NDBs on it? I find that hard to believe.

Not quite moored but they were there.
Information here :

WEATHER SHIPS (BRITISH & NORTH AMERICAN) (http://iancoombe.tripod.com/id56.html)

[BackPacker]

Cool. Must've been a massive investment. Thanks.

[Above The Clouds]

Eric

Thanks for your post, you beat me to it :)



Backpacker
Did they really moor ships across the atlantic with NDBs on it? I find that hard to believe.


Theres your answer, in fact I didn't use GPS crossing the atlantic until after the first gulf war when the early trimble units came on to the market.

[Ultranomad]

GPS is certainly a big convenience, but BRNAV can still be flown without it. In GA, the most popular option for GPS-less RNAV is King KNS80, still installed on many old aircraft. The ATC will also treat you differently depending on what your flight plan says about your onboard equipment.

[ShyTorque]

Edited to add - even with GPS, which way would you get from S of the MAN TMA into Barton?Unfortunately, I have seldom been successful in obtaining a clearance through Manchester's airspace and therefore have always had to route around the East / NE side, over the Pennines. Problem is, there isn't much of a gap between MSA / L795 airway / Man CTA / Leeds CTR (about a mile and a half).

You could get radar vectors, but that's not really "IFR navigation" in the strictest sense.

I was taught how to fly IFR methods of maintaining / regaining tracks using 5 & 10 degree lines from each turning point, using elapsed time and proportion of track flown methods, at RAF Jet BFTS. But that's no good when your passengers say they want to go somewhere at very short notice and you have to operate VFR/IFR/VFR, often nowhere near workable beacons (and often to a non-airfield destination), GPS wins every time. Having the benefit of an IFR GPS system fitted and got to grips with how to utilise it efficiently, I have no qualms about it and I see no reason whatsoever to hang on to outdated methods, just to prove it can still be done. As the military say, why bother to practice bleeding?

I'd rather stick pins in my eyes. :8

;)

[thing]

there isn't much of a gap between MSA / L795 airway / Man CTA / Leeds CTR (about a mile and a half

L975 innit? Huddersfield International is conveniently situated right in that gap.

[foxmoth]

Having the benefit of an IFR GPS system fitted and got to grips with how to utilise it efficiently, I have no qualms

Not arguing with that at all, just saying that it CAN still be done if needed, it was the "almost impossible" that I was disagreeing with.

[stevelup]

This is becoming a pointless circular argument.

If the original statement was re-worded to say 'there are many circumstances where IFR navigation is now impossible without a GPS', would that settle the discussion?

[foxmoth]

Replace impossible with "difficult", "will become impossible", or even the original "almost impossible" (because your "many circumstances" modifies the original statement sufficiently) and I would totally agree!:ok: